Wilf Day
rabble-rouser-supreme
Member: 4276
Joined: Oct 31 2002

Machjo wrote:
But would the pro-PR crowd go for it (STV)? Though it's preferable to FPTP, STV is still based on voting for the candidate, not the party at all.

Not true. In STV jurisdictions most voters vote by party. Ireland has a higher rate of cross-party voting than most other STV jurisdictions, but that's Ireland for you. If you look at places like the 51 members of Belfast City Council (all elected by party label by STV, with only one independent elected), or the Tasmanian legislature (25 members elected by STV, three parties, not one independent) you will find strong party loyalty among voters there.

Machjo wrote:
let's suppose that ideologically the voter sits between the Liberals and the NDP, then clearly it would be better for him to vote for a representative of the NDP's right or the Liberals' left. To do that though, he needs to know the candidate better, so by getting rid of party names from the ballot might help to accomplish this.
  

Not necessary. With STV, in a five-seater district there will be three or four NDP candidates and three or four Liberal candidates, and that voter can form a conclusion on which Liberals are too far right and which NDP candidates are too far left, and rank the candidates accordingly. That's very common in Ireland.

Machjo wrote:
So it (STV) still leans a little more towards FPTP than it does towards PR. The list system of course is just pure PR, and the MMP system leans more towards PR than FPTP. So my concern would be that while those who prefer to vote for candidates than parties would oppose the list system and might feel quite uncomfortable with MMP, those who support more power for parties are likely to feel that STV might not go far enough, or am I wrong?
 

That's a big oversimplification. FPTP gives a great deal of power to parties, since the voter has no real choice of candidate: if you vote primarily by party as the great majority of voters do in countries with a parliamentary system, you have to vote for your party's local candidate. MMP gives more voter choice, since you can vote for the local candidate you like best regardless of party. Open-list MMP gives even more voter choice since you can choose the regional candidate of your party that you like best, as well as voting for the local candidate of any party you like best. STV gives more voter choice too, in a large STV district where your party is likely to win at least one seat. In small STV districts a voter for a smaller party may find his or her second choice getting elected, but if your party gets less than the 4% or 5% threshold electing your second choice is better than your vote not counting at all. 

Machjo wrote:
Do you think this could work at the federal level too?
  

STV could work federally, in theory. The only difference is the size of the districts. BC has one MLA for 50,000 people, so an urban five-seat district will have 250,000 people, which suits the size of local cities in the Lower Mainland. But with federal seats having, in Ontario, about 118,000 people each, a five-seater would have 590,000 people. That might be acceptable to voters in Toronto, Ottawa, Mississauga or Hamilton, not so much elsewhere.  

Stockholm wrote:
If I lived in an NDP dead zone like rural soutehrn Alberta, I would not bat an eyelid before voting for whoever the local NDP candidate was - and I couldn't care less about their personal qualities because in my mind I'm not voting for that person. I'm voting for Jack Layton, the NDP platform and the values that the NDP represents.

Which nicely shows the problem. With an open-regional-list MMP system, if the south half of Alberta is a region, that rural southern Alberta NDP voter will likely help elect at least one NDP MP. although he or she may well be from Calgary. With STV, a four-seater rural southern Alberta district would likely elect three Conservatives and one Liberal, so your second choice for the Lethbridge Liberal would count. No matter how you slice it, there aren't enough rural southern Alberta NDP voters to elect one of their own.

Interested Observer wrote:

My personal favorite is the Preferential ballot/MMP system. You state your order of preference for your local candidate, and select a party you most prefer. 

Hungary has a system which is similar to MMP, and they elect the local MP by preferential ballot. I don't know of any actual MMP jurisdiction which does this, but we might have had the first: when the BC Citizens' Assembly designed their excellent MMP system, that was a feature of it. They then voted between the two systems they had designed, and decided that BC-STV was the better fit with BC's geography and political culture.


Could FPTP and PR be made compatible? By: Machjo (27 replies) February 5, 2009 - 9:54pm