babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Support rabble | Advertise with us | Contact our staff | About rabble | Log-in or Register for a new account | Corrections | Privacy policy | Newsfeeds | Mailing lists
rabble: Features | Columnists | In Cahoots | Blogs | Books | Photos | What's Up | Polls
babble: Forum Topics | Active Topics
The rpn: About the RPN | Become a podcaster
rabbleTV: Program Guide | Features | Indie Inside | Best of the net
Copyright © 2001-2013 the authors
Syndicate
Well, that's kind of the point of a boycott.
ETA: also, what does your allusions to Palestinian acts of resistance have to do with an anti-Israel protest in Malmö?
1) I thought the point of a boycott is to withold funds from companies or organziations that behave unethically. This woman has done nothing to deserve being boycotted nor has anyone suggested that anything other than her nationality has made her a target. She's not a representative of the government. She just wants to compete in a tournament. I can't think of any other athletes being subjected to boycotts despite many of them having done objectionable things as INDIVIDUALS. Hell, Kobe Bryant was credibly accused of RAPE but he can enter any tournament he wants and not have to worry. But someone with an Israeli passport gets banned. I'm proud that the tennis community that knocked down barriers for people like Arthur Ashe and Billy Jean King are not putting up with this shit.
2) Are you seriously refering to my mention of bombings of buses and piza parlors full of civilians and the cold-blooded massacre of students in a yeshiva as "acts of resistance"? Are you out of your fucking mind? These are acts of MURDER, not "resistance" and you've elimianted any shred of credibility you may have by suggesting otherwise.
Have you gone through Lewis Carroll's rabbit hole? We're talking about boycotting ISRAEL. Get with the thread.
No one is boycotting "this woman". If she were to join the Canadian or Greek national team, no one will hold her citizenship against her. But it's convenient for you to play the antisemitic card, isn't it?
Don't worry, though, the world is increasingly understanding the importance of treating Israel as an outlaw pariah state, even if the subtle distinctions appear to escape you.
lol! Billy Jean King!
The court is not out on Israel: they are a powerful nation committing war crimes. The only people who think otherwise are the fascist government in Israel, the people who voted for them and the ears they have in the United States. So your laughable Kobe Bryant reference is irrelevant. Athletes are representatives of the country. It's why South Africa was denied admission to the world cup and to the olympics. It's how boycotts work.
As for your concern about my credibility, which is in reality a faux-rage, huffy dodge of a direct question, thank you. But I did not pass moral judgement on the acts of the Palestinian resistance--they may be murder, they may be immoral--I find these things get a bit complicated. Like my Irish friends who talk about the troubles. Ultimately, however, I didn't comment further on your diversionary tactics because a) they were diversionary and b) irrelevant to an anti-israel boycott.
I'll try to reprint the disappeared OP here:
"Stop the massacre in Gaza - boycott Israel now!"
Comments and ideas are welcome as to how Canadians can support this international movement.
There is no "team". It's an ATP tour. Everyone competes as an individual or with one partner in teh case of doubles (partners who do not ahve to be from the same country). Their nationality doesn't come in to play. Federer isn't representing Switzerland, Nadal isn't representing Spain, the Williams sisters aren't representing the USA. They are all competing as individual athletes. If they're shilling for anyone, it's Nike, not their respective governments. So, yes, "this woman" IS being barred for her nationality, which is appalling. And I have yet to hear the policy defended by any professional tennis player.
Sorry, SSC, I guess I mixed up the Dubai incident with the one I posted about in Sweden.
I have no comment on Dubai's exclusion of some individual. I don't know the circumstances or why they did it. They may well have done it for the most barbaric and feudal motives, so I apologize if I appeared to defend the actions of some little U.S. ally.
My interest is in getting Canada and Canadians to boycott Israel, to divest, and to apply sanctions
1) this isn't a tournament where people compete on behalf of "teams" like in the Olympics or World Cup. She's tehre as an individual who happens to hold Israeli citizenship. If I were to be in teh tournament, I wouldn't be representing canada, the harper government or any of our specific policies or actions. just myself.
2) by referring to acts which are clearly murder as part of the Palestinian "resistance", you ARE passing judgment on them. Is it really worth debating whether entering a yeshiva with a gun and shooting as many students as possible as they sat and studied is an act of "resistance"? If Paul bernardo or Clifford Olson portrayed their atrocities as 'resistance' would you withhold "passing judgment' on them? What gets "complicated" about condemning walking into a school and shooting people? Are you willing to "pass judgment" on the shooter at the Montreal Massacre? Virginia Tech? Columbine? Are these "complicated acts of resitance" or "cold-blooded murder"?
Again, the issue is the comparison to the boycott imposed against South Africa.
Lets make this clear, there were two boycott's against South Africa. One, and official one sanctioned by the CW and the UN, and another one, practiced by the non-governmental sector, and private individuals, and the impact of these "civil" boycott's varied depending on the country, and individuals who concerned citizens deemed to be representing South Africa, were defintely made the target of anti-Apartheid activists.
Further, the extent of these civil boycotts included direct action and civil disturbances, aimed at directly preventing organizers of public events from supporting and promoting South African individuals. The arguement that there is some kind of clear distinction between individuals representing a country officially, and those who "just happen" to hold Israeli citizenship is "arguable" at the very extreme extent of prevarication to the extent where such an arguement could also be made about "official" representatives, and is therefore obviously tendentious.
Those persons are not "officially" representing Palestinians, they just "happen" to be Palestinians.
Do those who get so worked up about a boycott of a tennis match become equally upset knowing that Israel is imposing an embargo on, well, FOOD, on Gaza?
In the face of their starvation blockade on Palestinians, we cannot boycott Israelis enough.
I don't think it's very 'arguable" cueball that someone who "just happens" to hold a certain citizenship could be construed as representing a country...particularly through an action such as playing tennis and particularly if they hold no official position with that country's government. I used to play competitive tennis. When I played in college, I was definitely representing the university of Virginia since I was competng on their behalf in official college tournaments, wearing their insignia on my clothing and bag and my results would be tallied with other players from UVA to determine overall school standings. Because I'm a Canadian citizen, can i also be construed as representing Canada in those tournaments? Of course not. If I were good enough to turn pro and make it to Wimbledon, would I be representing Canada? Again, no.
If you're gonna boycott individuals, do so based on their views or actions not their race, religion, sexual orientation or country of origin. I find it very curious that the only example I can think of in recent memory of an individual athlete being targetted like this is not someone accused of rape or convicted of assault or who brought an unregistered and loaded handgun into a club and accidentally shot himself. No, those guys are all fine. hell, they'll get million dollar deals to sell shoes to kids cause they're such great role models. But if you have an Israeli passport, THAT is what crosses the line? There's a word for that. (Hint: it's hypenated).
Exactly. So if a tournament tried to ban a Palestinian athlete because people of the same nationality committed atrocities it would be entirely inappropriate. Also, yes, they are not acting "as palestinians" anymore than paul bernardo was acting "as a canadian". people who committ appalling acts should never get the moral cover of participating in some sort of "resistance' as a way to excuse murder or have people "withold judgment" from their actions.
SSC, your finicky argumentation might be taken more seriously if in fact you supported isolating the criminal pariah state of Israel.
As it is, it's rather hard to discuss tactical issues with someone who viscerally opposes the overall strategy.
No one is suggesting that not being allowed to compete in a tennis tournament is the greatest injsutice in the history of the world. But it's injsutice nonetheless. When African American baseball players were barred from the major leagues and consigned to the "negro leagues" there were certainly greater examples of racial discrimination. Not being allowed to be a professional baseball player was hardly the WORST thing that people faced. But it was still utterly indefensible and appalling that people should be excluded and marginalized and treated as "other' in such a way and decent people were still compelled to speak out against it.
I was wondering whether anyone who opposes the criminal behaviour of the state of Israel has any views on how we can help implement the call of the Palestinian civil society for boycott, divestment, and sanctions?
You obviously don't see the connexion between boycotting Israel and trying to end the oppression of Palestinians.
I suppose if you insist on seeing Israelis as the exclusive eternal victims, there isn't much to say that will change your attitude.
Well, I don't think building a critical mass consensus is possible until you educate the general public to the point that they'll support it. Boycotting South Africa was possible because you would be hard-pressed to find any respectable individual willing to defend their apartheid. That is not the case with Israel today and when we see reactionary actions like barring tennis players, it only creates a backlash and sympathy.
How far do you want to take the boycott? what are you personally willing to give up? Do you use Google? Google searches run on an Israeli-designed algorithim. Intel processors in your PC? They were developed and, in some cases, manufactured in Israel. Do you use instant messaging? Guess where that was invented? We're not jsut talking about giving up Granny Smith apples here.
Your Israel script is tiresome, SSC. Do you support isolating Israel from the world community until it abides by U.N. resolutions? I didn't think so.
Anyway, you forgot about cellphones, ICQ, umbrellas, printing presses, yoyos, green deserts, wristwatches, and the wheel, all of which were invented by Israelis, when they weren't busy building nuclear weapons.
Thanks for the reminder about what products are made in Israel, SS Canadian. Keep up the good work, I appreciate it.
I didn't know about Intel's Israeli connexion until a few months ago. I looked all over my PC and don't see one of those "Intel Inside" stickers, which was a relief. I do know that I'll keep my eye out for Intel content the next time I have to buy a computer.
It would be a lot to expect Americans would suddenly become that selfless but it would be nice if they would try complaining to their elected reperesentatives about their financing of illegal occupation and apartheid. But waiting for Americans to do the right thing could take a very long time, their government was notoriously slow when it came to acting against Apartheid South Africa as well, so the BDS campaign is the best way to move forward for now.
SSC, you have a lot of trouble with this question:
Do you support isolating Israel from the world community until it abides by U.N. resolutions?
So, I put it in slightly larger type, just in case your made-in-Israel monitor is on the fritz.
You'll notice that you're in the "activism" thread. This is for people that are actually a little bit upset with Israel's mass murders, apartheid, and aggression, and would like to discuss how to stop it. I can understand why you would feel out of place. But don't let me keep you, if you have better things to do elsewhere.
If you absolutely swear not to tell anyone, the Google conspiracy is laid bare here. I've had to write it in code, of course...
Sure, but I (and would hope other people would) differentiate between ISRAEL and ISRAELIS. So, yes, I have no issue with isolating the political leadership of Israel (particularly if, as expected, we get a Likud govt supported by yisrael beteinu), pressuring them on their policies, cutting off foreign and military aid or excluding them from certain international groups until they change tehir behaviour. However, I would never endorse discrimination against INDIVIDUALS based on their country of citizenship - whether these individuals are tennis players, university professors or whatever. I'd also even be pretty weary about banning Israeli 'institutions' - whether they be a soccer team or a team of researchers from a state university - as soccer and most research have nothing to do with military aggression.
Excellent. Then the question becomes, what steps can we and should we take, now, as Canadians, to make that happen?
Step 1: Cut teh bullshit, isolate the wackos from the movement and don't do anything that could be even remotely construed as being based on hating Jews or anything else that's gonna cost you support from the vast majority of "mainstream, reasonable" Canadians. So, no targetting individuals based on country of origin. No rallies where you yell at people to 'go back to the oven', no chasing Jews around university campuses and forcing them to barricade themselves in the Hillel lounge, no waving Hamas flags, no anti-apartheid posters where you indicate that someone is jewish and/or israeli by a crude caricature of a guy with a hooked nose that could have come from der Strumer.
In a previous discussion on this topic, I compared the anti-israel movement with the Ontario Coalition Agaisnt Poverty. Now, OCAP has a lot of good and reasonable goals that many people can get behind - namely taking action to help people in poverty. it's less their GOALS than their TACTICS that ahve turned them into a amrginalized group that nobody takes seriously. I mean, I support msot of their goals. But I don't particualrly want to get involved with a group that marches through my parents neighbourhood, branding the residents as "scum" and yelling at people for trying to enjoy a drink in a restaurant.
Step 2: Recognize that the movement isn't gonna reach critical mass overnight and develop a longer-term strategy based on actually making reasonable arguments and building broad support. Pick reasonable, intelligent spokespeople and actually go about trying to educate people in an intellectual and honest manner. Build relationships with elected officials based on mutual respect so that you actually get a seat at a table (hint: calling them 'whores' doesn't help).
Step 3: Be patient. Change doesn't happen overnight but jsutice usually prevails in the end.