Understanding racism when you don't understand it
I was given a two week vacation for a racist comment. I think I was left on the ban list a 'little' over 2 weeks but I'm sure the mods are pretty busy, glad they remembered me (thanks)
Now I'm not looking to question the mod's decision however I would like some help in understanding how what I said *is* infact racist. I'm not arguing that it isn't, but I don't understand how it is -does tha make sense?
Just a bit of backround. In my immediate group of coworkers there is a lot of diversity. White and Black. Chinese, Fillipino, and Native American. Scottish, Ukranian, Italian and British.
Giving it some thought, we make some pretty harsh comments to each other. Outside of our organization and probably at any work place it would be grounds for harassment. Here however it's not said with spite or malice, it's kinda just what happens. We make fun of each others backrounds but are closer than many people probably are to their family. I Do realize that it's still a VERY bad practice.
Still, because of this environment my views are probably somewhat different on racisim and racist comments.
So back to the comment I made. We were talking about children in Afghanistan being sexually abused. I suggested that it was in their culture and was given a short ban for it. Fai enough, I appreciated the warning knowing full well how much some people might prefr I just piss off and stay away 
I made that comment not out of an attempted place of superiority or disrespect but because I really believed it was a part of their culture in a sense . Let me explain.
On the records I guess you can say the practice of men using other men (and especially young guys/kids) is illegal In Afghanistan.
You can ask some locals about it and they will say no no it doesn't happen. But it does. Especially outside of the city the practice of it is common. VERY common. Often they won't even hide it. Why should they? They have been doing it for a long long time.
One day a week you see young teenagers show up at Aghan police compounds or with Afghan army soldiers and they get led away. Sometimes you can even hear it-disturbing. In speaking with an interputer about it he said that it's just the way things have always been. It was like that before the Taliban. When the Taliban were in power they punished that behavior with death so it was kept more discreet. With the Taliban gone it's resurfaced. The inturputer agreed that it's a part of the Afghan culture. It's something that's "t just accepted."
Hence why I made my comment that it is a 'part of their culture.'
It is how many of them were raised and what they do, it doesn't have the same social shock as it does here.
Does that not constitute as being able to be considered a part of their culture? Where in my comment do I come acoss as racist?
I fully agree that young boy abuse isn't somethig that only Afghan men commit.I didn't think I came across that way. I know the Catholic church has a horrible horrible history of it. Abuse against Native American children by the church and many many other examples.
I would almost even say that sex abuse could be considered a part of the churchs culture couldn't it? Not a positive one but it's been happening a long time.
It seems rampat enough. Now what I meant with my comment was that it's a common practice that seems accepted in Afghanistan. In Canada sex ause does happen, but do we see young boys showing up at a police station and passed around to 3 or 4 police officers during their break? Even if that did happen it's safe to say reactions would differ.
So after all that is the comment still racist? And if so how come? Because I've thought about it and don't understand. I'm working on broading my level of understanding of racisim. Some comments such as all white people are racist I'll never agree with or understand. However, somethings do kinda make sense. Like the difference between coloured people and people of colour. The latter sounding if anything more polite and respectful. At first I discounted it as semantics but it kinda does feel different when I say it, I just can't put it into words yet. It's like a subtle difference.
So I'm looking for honest non-hostile feed back in hopes of understanding something (racisim) that I've been somewhat blind to (for lack of a better phrase)
I'm thinking this belongs in 'reactions', but I'm going to leave it for the time being, to see what others have to say. email me at Makwa@rabble.ca if you wish.
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There may not be time for us all to run / in tandem together - / the horizon calls with its parallel lines. / It may not be right for you to have and hold / in one way forever and yet you still have time
Hmm, let me see.
A member of an armed occupying force in Afghanistan claims that the Afghan people's "culture" accepts sexual abuse of young boys in a way that the occupier's culture would not.
He wants discussion as to whether this observation is "racist" or not.
Now we are to discuss which forum this discussion belongs in.
My view is that this discussion belongs on another board.
Realigned, for all of your time there, you do not seem to comprehend that Afghanistan, along with other regions of the world that have been brutalized throughout history by colonialism, has been rendered essentially lawless because of the actions of outside influences. These things which you describe occur in all societies, and if this country had been torn apart by 30 years of war, and centuries of aggressive invasions to the point where the fabric of this society was in shreds, then these abuses would be more open as well. Actually, this has occured here as well, we just don't recognize it. You mentioned it yourself, that when the Taliban were in power, their strict punishments drove these abuses underground, just as our laws do in this society. In neither instance does it irradiate the problem whatsoever. What is it about our 'culture' in all of it's 'magnificence' that permits men of all status levels to be sexually abusive towards women and children. How is it that we can see ourselves as so far 'advanced' than other regions, yet we cannot eliminate male violence in our society. In North America, the same things are hidden behind closed doors, and the culture stigmatizes the victims when the abuse is discovered. When you point your finger at another 'culture' and say it is because of 'them,' you are viewing it from a position and feeling of privilege, superiority, and yes, racism. It is usually the case that when confronted with an accusation of racism, that the person who has lived their entire life as privileged beneficiaries of the dominant society will profess their innocence and shock, usually by pointing out that they have non-white 'friends,' as if inclusion in a diverse social circle renders it impossible for them to retain their superior mindset. The other thing that they do is to make excuses for their behaviour and disregard what other people are telling them, people who have experienced, and continue to experience oppression, and are in a first hand position to recognize racism at a glance as a result, without thinking about it. And yet, you perpetuate oppression by contending that their views, experiences and opinions are less valid than your own, that other cultures are more 'savage' and 'debased' than our own, without even recognizing our baleful influence in their culture. Instead of accepting the truth and using it to improve yourself and develop your own awareness, you continue to offend and dominate with your words and ignorance. For all of that, you and I have more in common than you might realize.
Will the next discussion here be, why the Afghan culture doesn't treat women and girls as well as "we" do? Perhaps we could invite Lt-Gen Andrew Leslie to weigh in on that topic, being higher in rank than the current interlocutor.
I'll say first of all that I don't know nearly enough about Afghan culture to be able to say that anything is or is not "part of their culture".
But I'm not sure that I can agree with the premise that it's inherently "racist" to say that certain negative practices are, indeed, ingrained aspects of certain cultures. Sexual abuse of young boys by soldiers, for example, was certainly a part of the culture of ancient Rome. One could make a case that adultery has long been a part of the culture in France.
What MAKES soemthing part of a predominant culture anyway? I suppose if it is widespread among the population and is generally accepted or tolerated as a societal norm.
So, again, I have no idea if what this poster has to say about Afghanistan is remotely true but if it IS actually a part of the culture, i don't see how it is racist to point it out. If I said that "large festive meals are part of Italian culture" is that racist because I'm generalizing or is it okay because large festive meals are probably seen by most of us as a good thing while sexual abuse is horrible?
The point is, it's a part of every "culture". Including ours. Certainly there is nothing unique about sexual abuse and rape happening in a war zone. It happens everywhere there is war, and the perpetrators are from every "culture" participating in war. Including ours.
Slumberjack's post is excellent.
Realigned, I think that in this context your comments would be more ethnocentric than racist. Slumberjack is obviously correct - the abuse of children happens here all the time. It is accepted as well (I have experience working with incestuous abusive families that have practiced it for generations). Have you ever heard of Bountiful, BC and the child abuse that occurs there? Try and find any charges against anyone there for child abuse.
That said, I don't think it is racist to point out a factual cultural difference. Saudi Arabian culture is way more sexist and patriarchal than our own culture, as one example. Women are treated horribly there. I disagree with Refuge that "culture" can only be defined as positive aspects. Christian fundamentalists exist in a subculture in N. America and they are more homophobic and more sexist than other groups culturally. They are called the culture wars for a reason. If they were the majority, you can be sure that our culture would not have gay marriage or abortion.
Do you actually have any proof to back either of these claims? I'm not a historian, but even some preliminary googling shows that pederasty was widely condemned in ancient Rome, and even when it was practised, doesn't seem to equal child abuse, as a vast age difference doesn't necessarily mean child abuse, any more than an old man with ayoung wife would.
I don't have any idea what to make of your theory about adultery in France, nor what it has to do with the alleged cultural dominant of Afghan child abuse.
And your correlation with Italian meals is so absurd as to be comic. What a joke.
Is it that Saudi Arabian culture is more sexist than North American culture, or is it that the most sexist and repressive elements in their society have been propped up by western governments and are just about impossible to overthrow or influence with social change?
It's easy for us to sit here and claim that our society is so much more enlightened because we at least have laws that prohibit the abuse of women while in Saudi Arabia, misogyny is written right into their laws. But no one wants to think about why the misogynists who run that country are so powerful and rich.
Could it have to do with being propped up by the ruling western oligarchs, like the Bush family, to name one? Could it be because it is in the US's interests to do whatever they can to help the Saudi monarchy stay in power because in exchange they will keep the oil flowing and be an ally of the US? Could it be that the people who rule the US don't really care that the cost of this alliance is the brutal repression of women and others in that country?
And do you think there aren't a whole lot of people here who would love to have that kind of power in Canada, and who would turn the country into a theocracy and repress us if they had the kind of backing that the Saudi monarchs do? And do you think there aren't a whole lot of men here who would totally buy into the misogyny that would result?
I find it instructive, if only for my own educational purposes, to try and fathom the world that other people have to suffer, in an attempt to capture something of the essence of what it must feel like, although I know I will never come close to it. In that regard, Ghislaine's and SSC's posts are useful to consider when trying to understand the frustrations of having to deal with it every day.
I agree with everything you wrote Michelle. It is disgraceful how Western governments prop up and support misogynist, fascist and other horrible ones. Bush is gone and Obama is still propping them up. I think that all ties stopped though and all oil profits stopped, the remaining culture would be still be more misogynist than ours.
I am not saying that ours isn't and that there aren't men here that would like to turn Canada into Saudi Arabia. I think that the majority would not though, especially my generation. There is a cultural difference amoung different groups that cannot be denied. Canada is a multi-cultural country. It is not racist to say that some religious wacko subculture is more misogynist than what I would consider my own atheist secular culture.
This also does not mean that Saudi Arabian women do not want a cultural change - but I am speaking of the current situation. (And using that country as an example, as their government funds religious schools the world over to try and spread their cultural beliefs).
Don't kid yourself. There are few, if any, degrees of seperation between the 'culture' of men regardless of regional differences. You confuse male dominated society with legitimate cultural variances, and in doing so you present it as a false clash between white and non-white value systems. The male dominated white value system came to recognize the worth of having women employed within war machine industries when it became apparent that not enough men were available to run the production lines. Any subsequent rights that were acquired came from tooth and nail struggles that continue to be opposed to this day at every step.
Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness (1899)
It only applies to anti-oppression dialogue, which is really what the conversation is about, and what the statement refers to.
Entering into a discussion using absolutes such as 'never,' indicates or implies a level of expertise that cannot be challenged despite any and all information which could be provided to the contrary. This is counter-productive to understanding. Among people who may pick up a few things along the way, or get some things out of anti-racism interaction, if they have never experienced it first hand, they will never become experts, and are in no position to ever believe that they will become experts, because if they feel that they are, then they have lost anything they may have gotten in the first place. People who are not experts should avoid absolutes when discussing any topic, including racism. It applies to you and I, and to the white babble mods who were kind enough to provide you with a two week vacation.
ETA: The process of understanding, in my view, isn't about going around displaying gold stars as if the acquisition of some nuggets of knowledge on the issue imparts a special role for us at the forefront of anything. All it means is that eventually, as we self-evolve, we might start minding our own business, and stop forcing our business onto others, and that in itself might lead to something worthwhile. Learn about ourselves first, as if that is so hard to do because inwardness is instinctive, then our minds and ears might become receptive to the wider picture.
Thank you all for the replies. I'm reading tem over again and have a few questions which I'll post.
Slumberjack regarding your comment
My comment was in reply to the initial absolute that "all white people are racist". I guess the lesson to learn is two wrongs don't make a right?
I would hesitate to condemn Realigned without caveat: the fact is, sexual practices, interpersonal power relations, the degree of intimacy between the sexes as opposed to between members of the same sex vary significantly between North American and Afghan/Pakistani cultures.
Abuse is abuse, of course; but who defines it?
And this thread should be moved to tabble rections.
I don't believe they are similar at all, your absolute belief that it doesn't exist, and my belief in the real possibility that it does. And it isn't so much based on my own observation, although that is a factor, but in learning from the all too real experiences of others. The illustrative difference is that one side (yours) of the debate is closed, and the other side is open to the belief. The mere fact that we are discussing these things amongst ourselves in this thread in such a detached, unemotional, and antiseptic manner is in itself a matter of privilege. Think about that, and while you're at it, take a good look at this thread and tell me if you see anything that stands out as odd.
The moderators have decided to leave the thread in this forum. This has actually turned into a thoughtful and interesting discussion, so hopefully we can continue with that.
If anyone wishes to discuss this moderating decision further, please do not post your objection in this thread - take it to rabble reactions. Thanks!
I had to lift this from a place that someone had sent to me, so I hope they don't mind, but I thought the video put things into perspective, especially the part about the 'sea of empty posturing.'
How To Tell People They Sound Racist
When people talk about the pervasive racism that exists in society, it isn't necessarily a discussion about shaved heads and swastikas carved in foreheads, or that we're all contemplating those cosmetic procedures for ourselves. It is far more subtle than that. When terms like 'we' and 'us' are used, it can denote collective ownership, or personal responsibility as the case may be. Generally, we all wake up in the morning to start the day, some of us are white, and others are not. Yet when we leave to go about our business, who's odds for a successful, non-frustrating day would you prefer?
All white people are racist, would be my personal opinion. There are nicer ways to say it, though, for those so inclined. (Be good!)
One might be that we live in a structurally racist society and that all white people, even without seeking it, get certain privileges automatically as a result of their appearance/their membership in the dominant group. It's not swastika-scrawling hate-mongering racism, but it's partaking in a system of racism, without much choice about it, other than being aware and attempting to change oneself/it. I don't believe it's possible to become entirely non-racist, to purge every element of society and material influence from oneself, so all white folks still are a little bit racist. It's possible to try to be aware and anti-racist at the same time though, lots of people manage it.
That's incoherent and maybe reinventing the wheel of what others have said better before, best I can do though.
As much as I hated this thread, thanks Catchfire, Slumberjack and others for thoughtful responses.
I believe you covered it well Ze.