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Syndicate
Ze are you suggesting that soceity is set up to be pro white so even when the average white male is sitting at home playing play station, he's being a little bit racist?
I always felt that being racist was a choice. Growing up your parents and soceity could impart racist behaviors on you but those could be unlearned. I never thought that being white coud MAKE you into something anymore than being black or jewish.
On your note though Ze, when I was in Thailand I felt very awkward at times. I could walk around any hotel or area really of Phuket without anyone saying boo to me but locals would seemingly get harassed or at the leastgiven a hard time. Obviously it was because I was white it was assumed that I was allowed to be where ever I was.
Another thing that bugged me was thatthe Thai people I encountered were treating me different because I was a foreiner. Not in a bad way, they would try to get up and give me their seat on a speed boat, hold doors for me, try and step off the sidewalks to let me pass. Things like that. I know those are all polite things do (which I was taught to do for everyone) but it just felt like I was almost being catered too and I didn't like it.
I wonder if it had to do with their culture and how their known for their hospitality and I'm just reading too much into it?
I mentioned it in a PM here, I was sad by one behavior over there that almost seemed like a culturetrend. I guess the Thai peoplethink that the more white you are the more beautiful you are. On hot hot days guys and girls were covering up their arms and legs becuse they didn't want to tan they said. The more white the better. There were also whitening cream EVERYWHERE.
I wonder what they would think of the idea that being white means your racist, would be an intresting thing to ask next time I go.
Realigned, racism is about more than personal choices, racism is about more than individuals being "good" (non-racist) and "bad" (racist).
http://www.alternet.org/story/71290/?page=entire
POC hating the colour of their skin, and worshipping whiteness is a result of systemic racism. POC are systematically told that if you are dark you are ugly, your skin colour is ugly and being lighter is better. Countless studies have been done that show girls of colour choosing the blond doll as "pretty" over dolls of colour. It's a very sad example of internalizing racist hatred against oneself.
The fact that whitening creams are being sold all over the global south is yet another example of racism in the global context.
As for your example of a white guy playing Playstation, well there are numerous ways that he benefits from racism, that he isn't aware of.
This is thread drift, but here's a small list off the top of my head and having no other information than "white guy playing playstation"
Minor level:
* Are the "bad guys" dark skinned and the "good guys" white?
* What country was the Playstation maunfactured? How much did the workers get paid?
Meta-level:
* What treatment does the white guy get and expect when he goes to the gaming store to get more games? Being treated politely? Smiled at? If yes, where did he get the idea that this is reasonable treatment for him to get? Does he notice that he's served first, even if he came in later?
*While going home if he sees a cop car driving towards him on the street does he think about what he's carrying, if his knapsack/plastic bag from the grocery store could be construed as a weapon, is he careful not to seem like he's walking too fast or walking away from the cops, hiding his face, making eye contact, not making eye contact
No, those meta-examples are no made up. They are what many men and women of colour experience when walking down the streets of their North American cities coming home from the gaming store.
Are you really open to hearing about all this Realigned? My read of your posts since your OP has not entirely convinced me that you're sincere. But I'm hopeful, for now.
*returning to lurking*
To be 100% honest Maysie yes I am sincere. Completely. I don't think you're alone in being unsure of me but I don't mind.
Some of this stuff I'm finding hard to understand and digest but I appreciate it when people like you take the time to try and explain this stuff even though I'm obviosuly not going to be on your my 5 calling list =)
It's tricky for me at times. I'm not used to online discussions like this and most of you can talk circles around me, I'm sure it's obvious I don't have any PhDs in language. I can hardly tell a fellow poster on here 'Hey nice post' without someone thinking I have sime type of silly alterior motive.I'm not sure what you do for a living but what I do is constantly an issue.
Even when it's something wholey unrelated to the army in other cases, it seems to get mentioned for some reason.
It feels like I really need to choose my words carefully, even now I'm expecting someone to reply
ZOMFG we're supoed to feel sorry for him? Hes partaking in bush's illegal war blaaa murdering innocent people blaaa brainwashed etc..
I find it funny and it doesn't upset me in the least. On the down side I think sometimes it may make others uncomfortable with giving me honest from the heart replies (like you did, thank you) because the other ridiculeing posts make them question my sincereity. Does the make sense?
Long story short believe me when I say I am infact sincere and appreciate the timepeopleput into their replies.
It makes me sad that a blonde hair white girl would so often be a young girls idea of pretty and I thought it was sad hearing about the whitening creams (Is that any different than me wanting to get a tan though? I prefer being tanned over white, the darker the better. Should I feel bad about that?)
Some things though, like skin coloured Bandaids as racist? I don't get that. If I had a chip on my truck and I waited to paint it to cover it up, I'd choose the same colour. I wouldnt put red on my silver truck. Is that vain I wonder? Can that be considered the same thing? Why would me wanting a bandaid to match the colour of my skin so people don't notice a honking bandaid be considered racist??
To me that's almost as silly as taking a brown bandaid (like I remember growing up with) and suggesting it's racist because it's white people using something brown to hide an injury. Like making it subservant. That doesnt make sense to me but i KNOW there are people out there who probably make some kind of argument out of that. I guess my biggest issue (problem?) is that I just fail to see some really small things such as bandaid colour as a significant thing. Almost like people go a little too far.
What Maysie said, really....
Well, I've never been to Thailand, but what the heck..... I think there's some stuff there. First off, the privilege travels even to areas where white people are a minority. Privilege is global. You could see and experience that.
Second, in that situation members of the privileged group will "see race" and be hyper-aware, even uncomfortable, feeling a minority and feeling their privilege like they don't at home. You expressed that pretty well i think. It goes for people who say they are "colour-blind" back in North America and that no one should see race. Maybe no one should, but the dominant culture racializes people anyway. When in an Asian country, it's suddenly impossible to be "colour-blind" any more or say "I don't see race".
Then extend that to, I don't know, riding the bus in Toronto.
(Realigned, I've made some additions to my post above while you were posting. Please check it out)
You are in good company. Many (white) people feel that bandaid colour is going too far.
It's in fact one more thing, like one more burden of exclusion, that continues, unquestioned, even when I've taken the time and patience to try to explain to you about a reality that you haven't experienced yourself personally. No, on it's own, maybe not a big deal. But when everything in the world is "WHITE WHITE is the BEST BEST" all the time, well, I guess you'd have to live it to understand. Even though some white folks do get it without having to live it. I'd really like to know what tips such white folks over to that level of understanding, but that's another topic.
Looking for an apartment "Sorry it's rented"
White person goes in after you "Yes, please fill out an application"
Applying for a job: ditto
Police driving by as you walk down the street, as mentioned above. Most white folks, and light folks (like me) don't even notice, what do we care? But the presence of the police is a fearful and violent reality for many POC and FN people. Always. Regardless of what they are doing. This is a truth about our world. And it's wrong. And, racist.
I think I'm really going back to lurking. I don't think you understand the effort it takes to have this conversation with you, the same one (now I'm remembering your pre-banned discourse), over and over.
I hope you can learn, from this and from other places (did you actually click on the Invisible Knapsack link or just read the quote?).
If there are any other allies out there, now would be a lovely time to add your voices.
P.S.
YES IT IS DIFFERENT!!!!
Did you not read what I said about self-hatred? Do you not understand that POC and FN people feel this THEIR ENTIRE LIVES?? Finally, can you see how incredibly insulting it is to compare this to you getting a frikkin tan?
P.P.S. I'm giving myself a time-out from this thread.
_____________________________________________
There may not be time for us all to run / in tandem together - / the horizon calls with its parallel lines. / It may not be right for you to have and hold / in one way forever and yet you still have time
Realigned, (and so many others) one of the issues seems to be that you have a hard time accepting someones subjective experience of something, when they tell it to you, when you personally coud never have this same experience. Why not just listen and go "hmmmm, ..ok"
You and I can never really know the subjective feeling of racisit behaviour, and living daily within a racist system, because as white people we're naturally going to be blind and deaf to most of it. A good start though, is when someone takes the time to point it out, to listen with acceptance, and not argue about something you can't experience.
Oh for sure. You absolutely wouldn't believe the shit I got away with as a well spoken white little teenager from North Toronto.
Hell, even when I did get seriously nailed, I had a lawyer named Austin Cooper who just made it all go away.
You know I think race and class privlige are kind of homeostatic conditions. I really worked my ass off to screw up my life as a youth, just to wake up in a sleepy little tree lined street in a house kind of like where I grew up. I never planned for any of this.
Cueball, your story reminds me of a print ad, for Moore's suits or something, I forget what the product was, some kind of upscale clothing. The line was:
From "Don't touch that, kid!" to "Can I help you, sir?"
I had to read it over and over again to understand it, to realize that the only people the ad was aimed at was white men, of a certain age, who wanted to be taken more seriously. And I amazed at the reality: a haircut and a shave and a wardrobe change. Even me, AR educator bla bla, thrown for a loop.
It was good to have such a reality check. Depressing, but good.
But that is the funny thing. I often wear my hair long, and also wear leather motorcyle jackets and so. Part of this change I am sure has to do with demeanour, because after a few victorious court cases I learned that I had tools at my disposal to fight the system. I am not really afraid of cops because I know my white teflon is working at all times, and I think they pick up on that, and don't harrass me.
But my learning that I could use the system, and win, was also a result of my white connections, demeanour, and my use of language that is instantly recognizable as the voice of the establishment. Moving that up a notch, cutting my hair and putting on a suit and making appearances as a "charachter" witness, or posting bail bonds, for some of my friends in court has become a bit of a routine.
Funny thing about being white and appearing court. My partner and I ended up in court for noise by law infractions. Yep we did, the stereo was deemed to be too loud by the people across the street. And the RCMP charged us separately because they were sick of responding to the people across the streets complaints. He lost, I won, and it was the same incident.
I went into court looking ethreal, in a long white eyelet lace skirt, and pale pink silk knit sweater, and long wavey blond hair. The judge deemed I could not possibly be playing the stereo too loud and chucked the case out, without even hearing any testimony and had only looked at the decibal readings. While my partner who is FN, got a 500.00 fine for the same incident, and he completely disregarded our neighbours, who were our landlord's too, testimony that it was not too loud and disrupting the peace of the neighbourhood.
I'm not too sure if it's about attire. Unless it involves a very special occasion, my stepping out attire has changed very little since the 70s...blue jeans, T-shirt, maybe a sweatshirt over the T on a brisk day, although the flares at the bottom have disappeared. And yet, I'm always greeted on my way out the door of the big box places around town with a smile and a nod, strolling on by the queue of people lined up with their bags open and receipts in hand for inspection. Most of them are dressed reasonably similar to me. There is another noticable difference though. I keep waiting for my turn whenever I go to those places, but it never comes. I've offered the open bag at times, only to be waived along with a chuckle.
Yes, and no I think. Anyway my point was that it was defintely not about attire, at the root. That said I can step it up a notch with attire and enter a whole new class, and be accepted into that class right away. I don't think this applies as often to POC.
As an aside, your story reminds me that I have also noticed that being white also allows me more opportunities to steal. I don't, but the thought has occurred to me. What is most interesting about this is the surveilance people ignore me, regardless of their colour.
Refuge, I'd say that proportionate to a POC in the same situation, they still benefit from being white. (I really didn't like saying they benefit)
edit: And it's not about all white people being racist, it's about understanding white privilege.
I disagree that they are subjected to the same prejudice. The prejudice is compounded. Not only they "different" socially but excluded racially. The punk nearly need to move up the age ladder, or change their style, and suddenly in a different class altogether. Black people can never be white, though they can be punk, or not.
This much is obvious, is it not?
I am the "punk" "leather jacketed thug" type, traditionally, and moreso in my past, often these days mistaken for the "hoser" type, often sneared at by the "left", I though I made that clear in my post. Transformation is merely a shower away.
Being marginalized through poverty, addictions, spiked hair, etc is different than being racialized. A shower, fresh haircut, perhaps a job, and all is forgiven, instant acceptance. For others, it doesn't matter what their status is, or who makes their suits.
I don't think the class element should be excluded either. One of the things I pointed out is that white people can change their real and apparent class status, just by changing the way they dress, this option is available to white urban punks of whatever class background. I know. I have seen it. Certainly, psychological factors, poverty and cycles of abuse can damage a persons ability to make such transformations, but white privilege even extends to them, and such transformations are more easily accepted by the society at large, regardless of how difficult they may be for white persons with a "bad" background.
Refuge, respectfully, I've rarely seen AR issues discuss "all white people are racist" and when I have seen it the context was necessary. If you get white privilege, you can get that too.
It's been mentioned that marginalization is not the same as racism.
A white homeless person faces better odds than a homeless POC, so you can't exclude them from white privilege. You're not getting white privilege.
One last thing, of all your scenarios the only guarantees are that a POC will remain a POC all their lives.