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I just don't understand why everyone thinks that it will make such a big difference to the church for all us non-believers to be taken off the roster. For all we know, they're thinking, good riddance. It's not like we're adding much to the collection baskets. And I mean, if it was nonsense in the first place to be baptized, confirmed, all that mumbo jumbo -- and it was for sure, speaking as a former Catholic church organist! -- then why I am I going to give any more credence to another sacrament or whatever to reverse that spell?
I didn't understand the point here as being to influence the Church - rather, to give courage to others to stand up and be counted, besides being a symbolic way of cleansing their own souls. Those who want to influence the Church, as Michelle pointed out, may prefer to stay and fight from within.
Yeah, I guess I just don't put a lot of stock in souls, and to me it feels like this action actually endorses that underlying idea, while rejecting the Catholic denomination.
I can see where others could take something more beneficial out of it though.
If I trust media reports and the Catholic pundits I have seen squirm in community venues, the RC hierarchy is extremely concerned about the abominable press it has been getting - from mainstream newspapers such as Le Monde - and the growing trend to chuck the Church among Roman Catholics. See the sermon quoted above: the effect on their fold seems enormous.
So, although it may seem like a ho-hum move for us sinners, don't think a letter such as Joey's doesn't have a major effect.
(Of course copying such a great letter to the editors of a few media - and in one's network - certainly helps.)
double post
My resignation letter says nothing, explicitly or implicitly, about "souls". It simply says that I do not want to be considered a member, even in a narrow technical sense, of an organization with grossly warped values which are reflected consistently in the way they treat children and the predators who abuse children. I could have given many good reasons for un-baptizing but prefered to focus on the recent example of the Brazilian girl.
I'm under no illusions that my resignation, on its own, will have any significant impact on the Chuch. As I said, their response was what I expected. It was more a matter of personal catharsis. Think of it as one former member giving the church hierarchy the finger, and letting them know why.
Yes, I agree with all of that - especially with popularizing the letter (obviously Joey is ok with that, given that he posted it here).
Is there such a trend? Anecdotal evidence suggests its truest among white Quebecois, less true among marginalized communities. In the UK, the Anglicans are handing over entire churches to Filipino communities.In Toronto, Tamil-language mass is well attended. Meanwhile, there are studies saying religion to be still integral to the lives of the vast majority of Quebecois.
Perhaps it would be better if church loyalty was really falling, but I'm not sure that it is, really. Just to speculate, I think the angst among Quebec bishops may be the same as the angst in the Vatican, and it's less that numbers are falling than that white/European identification with the church is seen to be down, and that "Christendom" is perhaps increasingly composed of racialized minorities -- the people that Christendom was formed to fight against.
That was a powerful letter Joey. Too bad (if entirely predictable) it got caught in the bureaucratic filter. It's the sort of thing priests should have to discuss in their homilies, but never do.
I'm OK with that, although obviously my real name isn't Joey Ramone. My email to the Church was, of course, signed with my real name and their reply likewise addressed to my real name.
I suspect the real Joey Ramone (RIP) would also be fine with giving the Church the finger. Gabba gabba hey!
With respect, Ze, your source is utter crap. It's not a "study", it's a "survey", and a phony one at that, which doesn't even cite the mandatory margin of error, by an Alberta professor who has dedicated his career to proving that religion in Canada is undergoing a "renaissance". The Church in Québec is so weak and discredited that it couldn't keep Catholic public schools alive (1998) and couldn't stop the abolition of the optional vestigial Catholic courses in public schools (2008).
Not to mention the empty Roman Catholic churches one can check out any Sunday, among other indicators.
But it is a big problem that people who wouldn't be seen near a church are still checking "Catholic" on their census questionnaires, just because they were baptized. The Catholic archbishops are using this data to scare politicians away from any reform that would put any dent in their fiscal, media and political privileges.
One more reason for turning the hype off on our way out.
Congratulations to all who renounced Catholicism!
Wish I could!
I hope this grows to a noticeable movement.
A friend once asked me "What can we do?" (about the neanderthal Pope).
Now there is something he can do!
Excellent idea!
Also, I'd like to see the Catholic churches in Canada renounce direction from Rome, and kick out the Holy Orders: They answer to Rome only, not to anyone in Canada.
Really? Now that is a problem I can get behind.
They should be turned into temporary housing for people that the state is trying to deport.
Heating them in winter is horribly costly.
But they could be stripped from all the pictures of tortured and suffering icons, and opened from April to late October for people to make music and visual arts in and to hear from and learn about native Canadian culture and issues.
Churches don't make great housing without major renos, being a nightmare to heat among other things. Many would make excellent community centres, neighbourhood-run cafes, drop-in centres etc through.
As to my source, yes it's as anecdotal and unscientific as any of the other anecdotal , unscientific opinions being offered. Is Catholicism on the decline? Maybe. Often people who try to cite numbers go to Bibby's studies and cite them as evidence. But Bibby's studies can also be used the other way around. I tried to use lots of conditional phrasings, I'm not here to defend the church hierarchy, goddesses forbid. My point is simply that the hierarchy isn't really upset at falling numbers, in my view. They're upset I think over the growing divorce between the church's public face and whiteness/power, as the pews are more and more racialized minority people, women, poor people and so on (in my anecdotal, unscientific experience). They're afraid, maybe, that the church will become what Dom Helder Camara wanted it to be, a church of the marginalized. More and more, it seems to me, it's the marginalized that identify with the church, and the hierarchy flails about trying to reverse that and get back the pur laine and the powerful. But hey, I could well be wrong.
Indeed.
Church land is Indigenous land, including buildings attached.
I'm not entirely clear as to what you mean by that, but I'll adopt that suggestion.
Turn over Ontario Catholic schools, buildings, land, lock, stock, and barrel, to the First Nations!
Agreed?
Most church-to-condo or whatever renovations are so ugly, but in this link is a picture of a church repurposed as an educational facility for at risk youth. They kept the original silouette. It looks gorgeous. That's a great use (aside from the fact this school is in private hands, but anyway). I wish I knew how to post it here.
http://www.architechweb.com/ArticleDetails/tabid/254/ArticleID/6896/Default.aspx
tm, if you right click on the picture, left click properties and then copy the address.
On babble, type {img}paste the address{/img}
Just use [ ] instead of { }
"I doubt if you could find a group in Canada more loyal to the RC church than FNs."
Oh, I can think of a few. But I won't speak for FN people.
Just don't forget that First Nations women have been at the forefront of efforts to hold the RC church accountable for the abuse of children in residential schools. Indeed, many of them have been supporting the survivors of this incredible violence for decades. So no one is more aware than them of the extent of this violence.
I was at a Sisters in Spirit speakout this evening in Montreal and they spoke quite clearly about it, making no excuses for Church authorities. Ellen Gabriel, of the Quebec Native Women's Association, even quoted from the Jesuits journals ("Relations") where the first RC priests to land here wrote indignantly that "FN men did not control their women"...
Hey "Joey", I have translated your e-mail into French. Is it OK if I quote/pass it out to people who might follow your lead?
Martin: I have no problem with my email to the bishop being quoted or distributed. In fact, if anyone thinks it would be more useful to have the original email with my real name, the name of the church where I was baptized, etc..., they can pm me and I'll send it.
As for your point about FNs, particularly women, being at the forefront of efforts to hold the churches accountable for the abuse at residential schools, I agree with you, but I stand by my view that, in general, FNs are strongly alligned with the RC church.
As for Ellen Gabriel, I would give her a lot of credit, but understand that she is a Mohawk. The catholic church has not traditionally been strong in Haudenesaunee communities; they have generally been connected to the Anglican and protestand denominations. The vast majority of FN communities are RC. Also, the position and role of women in Haudenesaunee communities is very, very different from those in other FNs.