JDL recruiting at York University?

Even scarier are some of the comments:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135873

What is more scary is the alleged assault. If true this is a real escalation. As for the comments, seems most come from the United States.

...and I'm sure they're not your cup of tea.  I'm pretty sure you've expressed that you respectfully disagree with the JDL.

If it's true, there would be some witnesses right?  I mean a "mob of 50" wouldn't go unnoticed.  I agree that if this occurred, the perpetrators ought to be penalized.  Unfortunately Hasbara has a reputation of being an extremist group (affiliated with Aish Hatorah. which Israeli-American journalist Jeffrey Goldberg calls the most fundamentalist movement in Judaism today) that has a very distorted view of the world and it would be preferable if a non-interested party was witness to the event.

You'd also think that somebody would have celphone cam footage of the attack, if it actually occurred.

Jaku, I think it makes sense to reserve judgment on the alleged altercation until actual evidence comes forward. As has been said, since the Hasbara people were videotaping a visual document should exist. Whether the documened evidence accords with Habara/JDL's claims of an "assualt" let alone "anti-Semitic slurs" is another matter.

Having seen the JDL physically assault people I think their statement on this is quite ironic. If Hasbara is as peace-loving as they claim they will issue a statement distancing themselves from the group.

I'm kind of astonished that the JDL suddenly have the public profile in Canada that they do. That didn't use to be true. In congressional testimony in the U.S., the FBI have described JDL actions as "terrorist." How were they suddenly rehabilitated here?

Unfortunately so-called "mainstream" institutions in the Canadian Jewish community such as the Canadian Jewish Congress and B'nai Brith have failed to disavow the JDL or advise the Jewish community to shun them. Contrast the CJC's laissez-faire attitude towards JDL with their obsession with trying to isolate and marginalize Independent Jewish Voices.

Also, Jaku, you have to understand that to a group like "Hasbara"(whose name, for those who don't know, is actually the Hebrew word for "propaganda") "Free(ing) Palestinians From Hamas" means "Annex The West Bank AND Gaza NOW!".

That's a position Jaku may respectfully disagree with.

Anyway, excellent post Ken.

I always thought that universities had the "power" to prevent an non students and non faculty / employees from being on campus.  if York enforced this rule on all sides maybe students could be students

I'm not sure if they do or not.  At York the idea of the campus being "private property" has been opposed by progressive students, but I'm pretty sure the right-wing Zionist groups has supports this idea, though they certainly bring outside "reinforcements" when needed.

JDL was having a series of pickets.a few months ago and I believe they were banned from campus do had to have their demo on Keele rather than step on campus.

Mycroft, do you think that Hasbara is already aligning themselves with the JDL, or it is more that the JDL is exploiting the situation and perhaps to some extent preying on somewhat naive students?

I believe JDL and Hasbara have worked together on a few demos including the protest against the conference at Glendon in the summer and the counterdemo against the Gaza anniversary march in Toronto in December.

My admittedly unscientific reading says that York has far more militant Zionists among its Jewish student population compared to other universities in Canada.  It's also known, somewhat paradoxically, as a very pro-Palestinian campus.

How on earth could you do that at U of T? Oxford? And I could go on.

And the call to let "students be students" is offensively paternalistic in a university context, where students are supposed to be becoming peers of their teachers and aiming to do self-directed work. Why, back in my day (geezer cackle), the entire campus would have gone on strike if anyone had dared to treat students so condescendingly.

It's not that sudden.

Meir Weinstein played a big part in having George Galloway banned.  He gave an interview with ITV in Britain from the CBC studios in Toronto. There is a link to that interview in this blog (about 1/2 way down).

Weinstein makes some outrageous remarks about monitoring people who planned to attend George Galloway's talks. This guy is a thug and goon. None of these comments made in this interview were reported in the Canadian media.

Well, when I said "suddenly rehabilitated," that episode last year was precisely what I was thinking of. I'd certainly known before that the JDL were around, but I was used to seeing everyone disavow and warn against them.

I actually blogged to Weinstein's appearance on ITV myself last year; the video is embedded there. (I don't usually do blog self-advertisement, but this seemed relevant.) I had certainly been alerted to Weinstein's first public comments here by the corporate media; I'd seen him quoted in, eg, the G&M and I think the Notional Pest, although I didn't include any of those links in that post because I was writing days later, after things had gone further. (And I can't remember whether those earlier quotes from him in the media here included the threats he made at the end of the ITV interview.) Never once, though, have I seen Kenney or Mr Infandous (Kenney's mouthpiece from the American Heritage Institute, Alykhan Velshi)  or Bernie Farber disavow Weinstein's role as an ally in the campaign to keep Galloway out.

I made no judgments whatsoever....I certainly qualified my statement...I am not thrilled with JDL on campus. Has it been tagged a terrorist group yet in Canada? Has any JDL member been charged or convicted of a crime? If so Campus might be able to act.

This nonsense about banning JDL from campuses is just another red herring. Unbelievable. All that matters is this:

Has every Muslim, Arab, pro-Palestinian, etc. group publicly disavowed the nuttier members of their cause? Hell, the Canadian Islamic Congress, which some could call the Islamic equivalent of the CJC, had their president go on TV (Michael Coren Show) and declare that any Israeli citizen over 18 years old was a legitimate target for murder.

As a Jew, I feel no need to "disavow" the JDL. They're a fringe group of thugs who, I imagine, could probably hold their annual convention in a minivan. Disavowing them is to acknowledge so much as the possibility that tehy could be considered to speak "for me" in the first place.

You are "not thrilled" and yet you come up with all these rationalizations for why the CJC and Bnai Brith needn't condemn the JDL. They are a hate group, that should be enough. Paul Fromm hasn't been convicted of any crime in Canada either but I doubt you'd have the same laissez-faire attitude that would prevent you from condemning him until he is convicted of something.

And need I remind you that JDL Canada is a branch of the international JDL group which has been convicted of crimes in the US, Israel and I believe France. I doubt you'd make such a differentiation between a parent group and its Canadian offshoot if we were talking about "Hamas Canada".

Jaku, you stated in another thread that you were part of the CJC's delegation to the World Jewish Congress a few years ago so you obviously have some connections with senior CJCers. Why don't you use that in to urge them to speak out against the JDL instead of just coming here and acting like an apologist?

Your not being thrilled with the JDL reminds me of Farber's comment that the JDL isn't "his cup of tea" - yet Farber sits down for coffee with Meir Weinstein. I guess that means that while the JDL isn't his "cup of tea' they are his cup of coffee.

And let me add that IJV certainly has never been convicted of any crime - which is the litmus test you've established for condemation - yet the CJC has spared no effort in attacking the group and trying to turn it into a pariah. Why the double standard?

The CJC and B'nai Brith regularly make demands that Muslim groups denounce extremists in their midsts even if the group has no involvement with them whatsoever yet not only does the CJC and BBC fail to practice what they preach with the JDL, they actually coddle the group, promote them in their media (in the case of both the Bnai Brith's Jewish Tribune and Canadian Jewish News which is loosely connected with CJC) and allow them to participate in their events.

Just to be clear: as a Jew, I feel as much connection to the CJC as I do to the JDL. Which is to say, none at all.

But if I felt compelled to publicly renounce the political or religious views of every Jewish group I disagreed with, I'd get nothing else done in my day.

SSC, I agree with you that there is something disturbing about demanding ritual denunciations from citizens, as there is something disturbing about demanding loyalty oaths from citizens. I don't do either; ie, I don't let people put words in my mouth. I speak when I feel genuinely moved to speak. I am a citizen, the noblest thing there is in a democracy, and we are teh free, eh?

However, Jason Kenney is another matter. He is a public servant. He does have to take an oath (to the Crown, who symbolizes the sovereignty of the people, all the people, all the time), and if a group like the JDL are claiming some influence on government actions, then yes, he should have to deny publicly that that is happening. Similarly, the CJC and BB: if they are demanding ritual denunciations from others, bullying the UCC and IJV, eg, then why the double standard?

I sorta doubt Kenney really listens much to the JDL. I think even the CJC is grossly over-estimated in terms of how influential they are. These are the groups that the media has in their rolodex whenever tehy need a comment from a Jewish group but I think among actual Jews in Canada, they hold very little influence and can't swing many votes. If I were a strategist for a political party, I would think getting an influential rabbi on board would be far more effective than Farber or the goons at JDL. These can't exactly do much for anyone.

SSC, are you not aware of all the funding decisions that have been made, just over the last year, clearly determined by Kenney or Kenneyesque politics? KAIROS? The R&D scandal? Pressure on CIDA?

Again, this is what CJC and BBC demand of others. But I agree with you that individuals are not compelled to renonunce the views of every group in their community that holds offensive views. However, I think the CJC and BBC do have a responsibility to denounce a hate group in the community, particularly one that is growing and is busy trying to recruite youth. There's even a video online of Weinstein addressing what appears to be a high school class.

I'm aware. But I doubt it's because of pressure from a fringe group like the JDL as opposed to Kenney's personal right wing views on the Mid-East. The reality is that making political decisions in order to win "the Jewish vote" (if such a thing exists) doesn't make much sense, seeing as how there are only a handful of ridings with enough Jewish voters to really make a difference and some of them - like in Montreal - are unlikely to ever vote Conservative anyway. They picked up Thornhill and made some gains in Eglinton-Lawrence but two ridings is hardly sufficient motivation to change poliicies unless you actually believe in those changes.

Also, with the new financing rules in place and limits on donations, it doesn't even make sense to enact policies in order to attract large donations from Jewish voters since the most they can give is capped pretty low anyway.

It's not just the so-called Jewish vote that Harper is after with his pandering to Israel (and I agree, aside from maybe Thornhill it's not going to get him very far) there is the much more substantial Christian evangelical vote. Remember, most hard core Zionists are not Jews but evangelical Christians.

And on that note, from the "What a friend we have in Jesus" department:

No fan of Hagee or Rush but that characterization is not fair. I could show you books written by Orthodox rabbis making very similar statements concerning the Holocaust as Hagee did (don't have it in front of me but you can look up a book called "Darkness Before Dawn").
Again, not a fan of Rush but that's also a distortion of what he said. He was accusing certain people on the left of conflating "Jewish" and "Wall St. Bankers" - again, a stupid thing to say, but he was attacking the left, not Jews. You can read his actual statement here http://www.vosizneias.com/47655/2010/01/23/new-york-rush-limbaugh-responds-to-abraham-foxmans-accusation/
on a Jewish news site and see the responses from Jewish readers defending Rush and attacking Foxman of the ADL for going after him.
Also, I wonder if it's really necessary for Harper to court the evangelical vote over israel. It's not like they're gonna vote Liberal otherwise.

There's something really wrong with this logical leap. I don't think anyone ever argued that the JDL were driving government policy. I think that Harper and Kenney have a number of reasons for doing what they're doing. I mean, Harper, to begin with, just hates NGOs. He's happy to shrink any publicly funded program he can, although now that's he's been in power for a while, he's probably decided that it's quite a nice thing to give some money to his best friends.

And then they have their ideological commitments. The CPCCA scare is part of the terra scare -- it is very much in this government's interests to have people convinced that we do face a clash of civilizations and that we must give up many of our liberties to protect against the threat. Harper would love that part, does love that part. And then there's the MIC (military-industrial complex), of which the U.S.-Israel axis is a major driver. That is an immensely profitable business for some Canadians, and it's important to Harper to present himself well to those guys.

So the JDL are useful idiots to him, more or less. They are a dangerous horror to the rest of us, but he and Kenney and a number of other people of varied interests are apparently unwilling to disavow them. That's more the lay of the land.

They may just stay home or vote for the Christian Heritage Party. Remember, Harper has abandoned a number of social conservative policies by not opposing same sex marriage or abortion so he has to give them some reason to vote for him.

I work in the same building that house CJC and UJA. I have asked CJC about this allegation. I am told that CJC has not made such a demand. If they are wrong I would like to show them. Please post some examples. Since you claim CJC "regularly" make these demands I'm sure you have them handy.

And what would his reward be if he jumped through these hoops for you? Just askin'.

BTW, I would like to say that it's wonderful to have skdadl around here more-or-less regularly once again.

Aka Mycroft, so help me, if you respond to this post, I will totally lose all respect for your ability to avoid straw persons, red herrings, and assorted other diversions.

And I agree, it's great to have skdadl around here - not to mention Michelle in her new capacity as lowly mighty babbler!

As for the "Jewish" Defence League, I hereby put my curse on them and wish them eternal anguish. If you don't know what that means, better go see the Coen Brothers' "A Serious Man".

Prophit, perhaps you can pop upstairs and ask the CJC why it is they are obsessed with IJV and trying to marginalize it whilst they treat JDL with kid gloves and even favour?

Ok, Mycroft, you've redeemed yourself - that was an appropriate answer.

Prophit, you can also ask yourself why CJC is soft on fascists and uncompromisingly insulting with progressive Jews.

Man, you guys keep high standards here these days.

Gee, what a shocker. :D

I totally and unequivocally reject JDL.

Now, show us all the proof  AkaMycroft how JDL, which I totally reject, is a hate group. I don't doubt you but you have a reputation for making assertions without backing it up.

From the aftermath of Kahane's assassination:

As for the fascist "Jewish" Defence League of Canada:

Quod erat demonstrandum.

And, on THIS side of the border, there's what the JDL did to Alex Odeh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Odeh

They are a bunch of thugs. Do the police claim that the Canadian JDL are involved with Odeh's death?

Ken, we're talking about the Canadian JDL here. You will need a full legal and research team to convince Jaku that the Canadian JDL are a gang of fascists and racist hatemongers. If you diverge, even slightly, from that task, you will be taken on a slow canoe ride down a meandering rivulet to nowhere. Just a friendly note of caution.

Wow, terrorists organizations recruiting in Canada, at our universities even....

Are you unfamiliar with what Weinstein said after the Tomb of the Patriarch's massacre?

Logical question, Jaku:

If you "totally and unequivocally reject JDL", why are you being a stickler about the degree of evidence that proves they are a hate group?

LOOK! Over there-->>>>>

Jaku, the Hasbara group collaborated with JDL in organizing last summer's Glendon demo against a conference on Israel-Palestine. Do you also "reject" groups lending the extremist JDL legitimacy by collaborating with them? Should the CJC do what they've done with the UCC and intervene strongly to warn them off "partnering" with a group that they think is beyond the pale or should their opprobrium be limited to peaceful, progressive Jewish groups and not extend to hateful, extremist ones?

Don't you find it odd that CJC/UJA will burn up lines trying to stop Jewish institutions from renting space to an IJV sponsored event or even giving money to a non-political art installation involving a Jewish anti-Zionist artist but is silent when Jewish groups work with a fascist, terrorist-apologist group like the JDL.

Perhaps you, as someone who has gone on at least one CJC junket and others who work in the same building as CJC can explain the double standard? Why does CJC go apoplectic when it comes to IJV while having a much more relaxed and even laissez-faire attitude towards JDL?

I'm far more concerned about people like Peter Kent than I am about Jaku.  Kent was Facebook friends with Meir Weinstein.  Kind of ironic that Kent rails about "terrorism" while being friends with the leader of a terrorist group.  Of course only the alternative press (NOW) and some bloggers picked this up, but the mainstream press ignored it (of course).   Kent is supposedly this great "friend of the Jews" who got elected by saying how the Liberals were anti-Semitic (including Susan Kadis and Irwin Cotler apparenty!) - I wouldn't trust him to watch my house while I'm away.  The only reason he cares about Jews so much is because it serves his rabid anti-Muslim bigotry. 

Irwin Cotler still is Facebook friends with Weinstein (at least he was last time I checked a few weeks ago)

Excellent questions AKA, the discontinuity, and hypocrisy is astounding, and very alarming actually.

Interesting obsevations on Peter Kent Max.

I can't really hear what these JDL thugs are saying, but the fact that they're on campus is disturbing enough. 

Well it looks like Hasbara's story contradicts the facts:

http://www.shalomlife.com/eng/5021/York_University_is_a_Safe_Place_for_S...

I am shocked, just shocked, that a group called "Hasbara" would engage in propaganda.

I agree that the presence of JDL on Campus is troublesome. In fact I would say the same for any outside agitators on Campus there to simply be provocative.

However if your video is the worst that JDL does on Campus then its at best a paper tiger. Clearly college kids smiling and joking around seems rather tame .

I certainly try to maintain an open mind but it appears as though any time I write or ask a question certain motivations are ascribed to me. Yes I work in Jewish milieu. It doesn't mean that I embrace everything those who work at UJA or CJC state. At the same time when a poster like Aka Mycroft suggests that the CJC has labeled all who criticize Israel as anti-Semites and CJC says it never happened, I have to take stock.

As to the JDL on campus, if the students in the youtube are not part of the York Campus their presence there wearing JDL T-shirts can certainly be seen as a provocation. If however they are students not engaged in disruptive activities that to me is an entirely different matter.

Despite my very distasteful feelings about the rightwing JDL, unless and until it is found to act in a criminal manner, these students are more than free to associate with it.

By the way as distasteful as I find "pro-life" advocates, they too would fit into this same boat as would pro-Palestinian groups and many others.

uh....ya right!

Thanks for the information LP that they were lying through their teeth....

Personally, would hope  other Canadian  sectarian groups will challenge their banning as alleged terrorist orgs, on the basis that the JDL is allowed to function in Canada, even though they are  internationally labelled terrorits too.

That some people are here ignoring this hyprocrisy and discontinuity, repeatedly, grows ever more troubling.

Yeah, well no one said students are not free to associate with JDL.

What has been said, however, is that the CJC, which pressures the United Church into dissociating itself from Independent Jewish Voices, does not lift a finger to warn students, or anyone else, about the fascists of the JDL. That's the point you should reflect upon, if you truly want to maintain an open mind as you say.

I shall very much reflect on this. I respect the right of the UCC to meet with the CJC and reach its own conclusions on whom or which organizations it wishes to deal with.

As for the need for CJC to warn students about the JDL, I have problems. If the group is not a terrorist group or has not been found by police or even human rights commissions to have violated hate procedures what can it do? Sure it can issue "warnings" but in this litigious society, such "warnings" can be perceived as libelous. If I were CJC or UJA I would be more than conscious of this. Nonetheless I will consider this further.

This thread is a new low for rabble.  Spying on peoples "facebook friends"???  Seriously??  You guys sound like you're in grade 3.

What about spying on rabble? What grade are you in - loser?

Etiology of Mental Illness: Reigning in Rogue States

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/etiology-of-mental-illness/

"In January, Canada stopped contributing to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). It is the latest in a series of decisions that have seen Ottawa 'out Israeling' Washington.."

Are not!

Hasbara's claim of an assualt exposed as a total hoax

You mean Hasbara and the JDL lied and falsely claimed there had been both a mob and assaults? Well, I tell you, I'm shocked.

Good thing we have a number of people in this thread who either work in the same building as the CJC or have gone on CJC junkets who will, I am sure, as people of integrity immediately condemn both groups for attempting to perpetrate a fraud on both the Jewish community and York students.

Jaku and prophit, the floor is all yours.

i'm glad that the video showed otherwise. i guess that is why their is a "battle" going on between Hillel and Hasbora in who speaks for the community on campus. one group Hillel is the larger and represents the vast majority of Jewish students on campus. the other Hasbara is a very small organization that claims to represent the voices of a vocal minority who are against Hillel for being too soft.

I wonder who the real advocate for the Jewish students is. if it is by numbers then Hillel wins hands down so to speak.  Maybe the minority group called Hasbara should just pack up since they know that they are really able to hold their meetings in a telephone booth and do not represent anyone.

Hasbara is the campus group for Aish Hatorah, which the Israeli-American journalist Jeffrey Goldberg notes is an arm of the pro-settlement right in Israel.

The Jewish Extremists Behind Obsession

You're right that Hasbara represents the rightwing fringe.  But Hillel was also behind the "Drop YFS" movement at York.

I've noticed that when JSOs become Hillels, they become more politicized.

Hasbrara at York had about 350 fans last week on Facebook, now it's down to 103.

ETA: Hillel doesn't represent the "vast majority" of Jewish students at York.  There are about 5000 Jewish students at York and the vast majority aren't involved with Hillel.  I'd say they probably represent 10-15%.

I love the way certain demands are made here by people like akamycroft that others (those who hold a different view on Israel) would never get away with.

So you aren't going to criticise Hasbara for lying by fabricating an assault in order to smear their critics? Or do you hold people to a lower standard and think lying is excusable when they're doing it out of support for Israel?

What punishment do you think is appropriate for the lying Hasbara kids? Do you think Hasbara should be required to apologise for this deceit?

Jaku surely you can't think concoting this sort of hoax is anything less than deplorable.   This hurts the Jewish community.  It trivializes real anti-Semitism.  This doesn't concern you?

If you have any proof that say Independent Jewish Voices has pulled these shennanigans - please let us know and I will condemn it.

BTW If you think I refuse to criticize people in my own "camp" - well I think Adam Giambrone is a crass opportunist and a real asshole who can't be trusted (though I don't think he should have to resign as TTC chair).   So there.

LP Mrs. Miles' niece is at York and says that about 60% of Jewish students are involved with hillel. so even if she is wrong and we cut it in half it is still bigger than the 10 t o15%.  i do not know how you quantify the membership because their are no dues etc. but I would guess that my nieces number is prob closer than yours.

as far as the JSU hillel change over time that is the irony becasue the JSU's were funded by bnai brith then bb cut all funding to campus

Only because you seem to be demanding answers from me,....

Thank you LP for your more reasonable approach. If in fact Hasbara lied it should and must be dealt with by York Univeristy administration. I imagine there are proper procedures in place to handle such situations.

Me I don't understand this. If this JDL is a terrorist group why are they running around loose in this country?? One fellow says because they've not been caught doing anything. Ok fine. On the face of it that makes sense. BUT does that now mean that Al Qaeda can set up a branch office here because they as yet haven't been caught doing terror things here? No? Does it mean Hizbollah can set up a Canadian branch office here.. because they haven't been caught doing stuff? How about the Tamil Tigers (if there's any left alive)? How about the Iranian Revolutionary Guards? How about.. etc., etc., etc. And if not, why not? Is fair not fair? Goose, gander, all that? And why not? 

And speaking of this, how can this Repudiman guy over here that blew up an airplane and killed 300 folks.. women and children.. still walks free? They won't even let Mr. Galway in to give a little talk, but this Repudiman and these JDL guys walk free?

I'm tellin' ya, folks. I just don't get it.

Yes, I'm sure that Bernie Farber would be consistent about the "right to exist" of an Al Qaeda Canada or a Hamas Canada as long they haven't yet committed any crimes.

The vast majority of York students are on Facebook I'm sure - and Hillel at York has something like 400 members.  There is quite a bit of overlap even though Hillel has some moderate members while Hasbara is made up entirely of zealots.

I realize Hillels do often serve a relatively apolitical social purpose for Jewish students - but I would assume that is more the case in places like Halifax or Kingston rather than in Toronto which has a very large Jewish population.

When Hillel calls out Jewish students to fight against anti-Israel forces or whatever, they cannot attracts anywhere near 3000 students.  Their hardcore active members number in the hundreds - which is significant nowhere nearly the majority of Jewish students.

Am I missing something...I thought JDL was labeled a terrorist group.?

Not by either the U.S. or the Canadian governments. The FBI have several times -- in a 2000 report and in congressional testimony -- referred to actions of the JDL as terrorist, but I don't believe that the group has been listed.

Then I too am confused. Haven't a few babblers been basing their arguments on the fact that the JDL have been labeled a terrorist group? In fact at least one poster has claimed that the JDL was convicted of a crime. I never knew an organization could be so convicted.. I do believe that organizations can be constituted criminal. Has the JDL been constituted criminal? If so then there is something to go on here.

I'm not sure who else you're referring to, Jaku, but I have certainly followed the FBI's lead in calling actions of the JDL terrorist, and I intend to continue.

As you may know, the political party Kach is banned in Israel (or was -- haven't kept up with that). Meir Weinstein has spoken as the Canadian representative of Kach, refusing, eg, to condemn the massacre in Hebron (see his wiki entry). I don't know whether the U.S. or Canada have listed Kach.

Skdadl, I support all that you're saying, but it's instructive to look at the discourse here and how it evolves.

JDL Canada is no "terrorist group" (so far as we know - yet), and of course no one here has said it is (despite the relentless efforts of Jaku & others). It is, however, racist, fascist, pro-imperialist, and other appropriate adjectives - it openly celebrates the lives and opinions of pro-terrorists and arch-racists like Meir Kahane - and it seems prone to bullying, aggression, intimidation, and violent behaviour. Jaku and his cronies would like to divert the discussion into whether it should be "banned" from campuses, or whether it is "criminal" or "terrorist". Why? So they can avoid having to answer a simple question:

Why does the CJC work overtime to publicly discredit and marginalize responsible democratic Jewish voices like IJV, but is unwilling or unable to publicly condemn the monsters of JDL as a blight on the Jewish community?

Kach and Kahane Chai are proscribed in Canada and the US in recent years. In addition, Moshe Feiglin, an extrenist Israeli political figure which the JDL is associated, has been barred from entry into the UK and was held up for questioning the last time he visited Canada to speak at a JDL event. Feiglin had been visiting Canada regularly but hasn't been back in some time suggesting that he may have been told he might not be allowed in again.

Jaku, do you agree that JDL is a hate group?

aka Mycroft, is this a Babble solidarity test you are demanding of Jaku? Seems to me whenever any issue dealing with such matters arise, you make all kinds of demands on her.

*Is JDL a hate group
* Will you question the CJC (after all you attended one of their conventions as did many many others)
* Why does CJc go after IJV

Time to stop methinks.

Prophit, do you have any insight as to why CJC condemns IJV but not JDL? My view is that such behaviour is harmful to Jews, isolates them, associates them with the most extreme right-wing and xenophobic trends - to the extent anyone sees the CJC as the spokesperson for the Jewish community, which clearly the United Church and others do, and clearly the CJC presents itself that way.

You can belittle and dismiss this as a "solidarity test", but surely it is no more than an exchange of views as to which direction Jews in Canada should take on many issues of fundamental importance.

Unionist, my view is that CJC pays absolutely no attention to the JDL. It is a group that has little traction either in the jewish community or within the general Canadian community.

IJV on the other hand, has tried to insinuate itself into the largest Protestant church in canada as a legitimate player within the general Jewish community. It tries to be something it is not. My guess for what its worth.

I'll stop when I get an explanation. If Jaku and you are going to come here and softsoap the CJC then you're going to have to expect to be asked questions rather than get a free ride.

IJV doesn't claim to speak for all Canadian Jews whilst CJC (and BBC for that matter) both do to the extent of trying to silence the increasing number of Canadian Jews who disagree.

Do you think it's legitimate for Bnai Brith Canada to claim they speak for the Jewish community? Is it legitimate for CJC to do this? Indeed can any one group claim to speak for Canadian Jews?

What I see is that anytime anyone comes here and supports the mainstream Jewish community, some posters immediatley label them as CJC trolls or supporters and all kinds of demands are made. Can they just not have an opionon without being labeled? I belong to no one and support who I want when I want or is that no longer permissable?

What utter bullshit. Someone comes on here to defend CJC actions, and others question them on those actions. No one called anyone a troll. Your diversionary crap is rejected with utter contempt. Deal with the issue, or take your character assassination elsewhere.

By the way, for anyone who missed it so far, MAINSTREAM is an ugly code word patented by the pro-Israel lobbies to marginalize and dehumanize all Jews of conscience. Just make a mental note beside any post that uses that lying term. It's from the handbook.

Gus, you have evidently missed part of the conversation. In an earlier discussion Jaku stated that she was a Canadian Jewish Congress delegate to the second last World Jewish Congress while Prophit boasted of working in the same building as the CJC and of having run up stairs to get their point of view on one issue or another. Given that information I think it's fair to say both of them are CJC supporters and therefore it's fair to ask them to explain the CJC's positions. Indeed, as both of them have invoked their association with the CJC in order to give weight to one or other argument they were making it's certainly perfectly fair to treat them as CJC supporters who have privileged access to the organization and are in a good position to answer questions at least until Bernie Farber opens a babble account in his own name.

Do you realise that by saying this you've bought into the Zionist line that Hamas and Hezbollah are "terrorist" groups rather than legitimate resistance organizations?

Does anyone really think that either of these groups will do anything in Canada?  Did Russian partisans or French Maquisards leave home to attack their occupiers in, say Mexico?

Yes I did miss that. I'm sorrry but my position still stands.

I have been to the Jewish Community Centre in Toronto where the CJC is housed. There are many Jewish communal organizations in that building with probably hundreds of workers. I would venture to guess that not all of them are CJC supporters, though I would also suggest that many thousands of Canadian jews support CJC. It takes (yes Unionist I am borrowing from the "Zionist advocacy handbookp) a very mainstream approach that is why it gets the support not only of mainstream Jews but all the political parties, much of Canadian media and the general Canadian public.

As for Jaku attending a World Jewish Congress event with the CJC, yes i suppose like many others over the years that have attended CJC sponsored plenaries, meetings, conclaves, speeches, etc she could be considered a supporter. Then again so would tens of thousands who have also been in some way associated with CJC. Doesnt mean they answer for everything CJC does or says. If you want answers write or email cjc. Check out their website, pretty easy to do.

More diversionary nonsense. If someone here supports an NDP or Liberal position, we can't debate it - we have to write to the NDP or the Liberals or check their websites? Spoken like an actual paid functionary - though far be it from me to launch any accusations.

So you're suggesting I should be open to the possibility that even though Prophit defends the CJC at ever opportunity and pops upstairs to chat she's not a supporter? Fine. If Prophit announces that she is in fact not a supporter of the CJC then I will certainly believe her. Indeed, I expect that over time fewer and fewer Canadian Jews will want to be associated with the CJC or have people think they support it so I would see such a pronouncement from Prophit as a portent of things to come and will certainly welcome it.

Until then I think it's perfectly acceptable to ask her and Jaku to explain the CJC's benign neglect of JDL (if you call kibbitzing over coffee in a well frequented public cafe in Thornhill benign neglect) counterposed against their aggressive attacks on IJV.

I can only speak for myself since I do not belong to any CJC committee and I have already made my point clear on both IJV and JDL.

I am not sure what you are talking about when you mention coffeee at a well-known Thornhill cafe. I frequent Thornhill cafes too and have seen many people there so what...I will need some clarification there.

Unionist, last I looked CJC was not a political party. Therefore in order to get oinions of CJC you need to ask their committee members. Simply attending a CJC event does not make me a "member" of their Board or any pf their committees.

Yes I forgot that because of declining support from the Jewish community and declining revenues the CJC a few years ago consented to a take over by the family compact known as CIJA. As a result they now have no membership and so have no one to answer to except fot the Aspers, Heather Reisman, Jerry Schwartz and the other plutocrats who run CIJA and now pull the strings at CJC and its chief muppet, Bernie Farber.

The coffee shop reference is an inside joke - ask Bernie
.

Yes yes yes I work within the Jewish community complex on Bathurst St. There are approximately 400 professionals who work here as well from organizations varying from Jewish Family and Child to the Pardes Shalom Memorial Park from the Albert Latner Jewish Library to the Ontario Jewish Archives from the Board of Jewish Education to the UJA from the Koffler Centre for the Arts to the Leslie Gales Child Daycare centre from the Sports Medicine Clinic to the Jewish Children's museum from the Holocuast Education Centre to Hebrew Free Loan Casa...and lets not forget the thousands of volunteers that are in and out of this complex every week.

Do you honestly believe that each and every one of these people can or should speak for the CJC? I happen to know some of the CJC professionals in this complex. This now makes me a spokesperson for CJC. Some of you really need to get a grip.

I'm not interested in asking CJC for its opinions - its public words and deeds are self-explanatory. I'm interested in what babblers think about those actions of the CJC.

I'll share a particular concern with you. I'm very worried about the Jewish people being connected with the likes of Harper and Jason Kenney and Peter Kent and Netanyahu and the JDL and B'nai Brith and Bush and Blair... Besides the obvious fact that these are among the darkest forces facing us today, such identification will necessarily provide cover and pretext for antisemitism and expose Jews to peril in various parts of the world. I selfishly believe that the security of the Jewish people lies, not in geographic/ethnic isolation, military might, and alliance with warmongers, but rather in solidarity with the plight of our friends and neighbours, whether in Canada or the Middle East or anywhere. That's why I regard the actions of Israel with horror, as I do those of its craven apologists.

No one cares whom you speak for. Don't flatter yourself. It's your own personal opinions and stands that matter on this discussion board. Get a grip.

I honestly have no clue what you are writing about. Declining support? I guess you missed the CJC's May 09 plenary that saw almost 700 Jews from all across Canada come to debate issues. And oh yes for an organization with such "declining support" it managed to attract the Prime Minister, the leader of the Official opposition, the Federal NDP leader, the leader of the Green Party and the Vice Prime Minister of Israel. Declining support indeed.

And honestly "inside jokes" are childish.

I'll give you an example of declining support. In 2006, 20,000 people participated in the UJA's Walk With Israel. By 2008 that number was 15,000 and in 2009 it dropped to 12,000.

aka Mycroft you are starnge indeed...Im talking about CJC and you are talking about UJA...hard night last night?

Jaku, you know as well as I do that UJA is related to the CJC and that both are funded through what is essentailly their parent organization, CIJA. In any case, there has been a decline in support from the Jewish community for these so-called "mainstream" institutions. However, if you want to post the number of individuals who have contributed money to the CJC for each of the past 10 years then go ahead.

"As I know" this is a joke right? What I know is that CIJA certainly does not fund UJA. What you know about how the Jewish community operates can fit in a thimble it seems.

All your bafflegab still does not explain the fact that virtually every political leader in this country sees the Jewish Congress as the representative organization of the community.

BTW UJA is the key Jewish charity in Canada not CIJA. I can guarentee you that CIJA does not fund UJA.

And anyone who steps out of line slightly, like the United Church, has to be publicly called back to order.

But what is more important is which Jews see the Jewish Congress as their representative. As the CJC's policies become more reactionary, closer to Harper, and friendlier to Likud, they will find to their chagrin that the Jewish people will not follow them down that path.

So you're saying CJC and UJA have no relationship? Really?

Harper and Iggy also pander to Bnai Brith Canada and the Tories seem to favour BBC. Does that mean BBC is more representative than CJC? Certainly Frank Dimant seems to think so:)

Anywyay, just because political leaders in this country still seem to think that "ethnic" groups vote as a bloc and all you need to do to get their votes is pander to the self-appointed leaders of a community doesn't make it so.

If Canadian Jews neglected to vote as a bloc for the Tories when so-called Jewish leaders were praising Harper as a modern-day Raoul Wallenberg, it's pretty clear that there is far more diversity among "mainstream Jews" in their political opinions than you'll find at CJC.

There are a lot of Jewish people in my riding, and most as far as I know vote NDP.  But I don't think Jack Layton speaking at the CJC plenary helps deliver the NDP "Jewish votes" and I'm not sure if Olivia Chow being a UJA fundraiser does much either.

Just noticed this thread. Closing for length.