Does Toronto have a high crime rate?

Parts of the city are very violent. You need to be careful at all times in Toronto because violence can spill over into the most unlikely places. A few years ago a young girl was shot dead by Blacks whilst out Boxing Day shopping on a crowded street. The Blacks have shown no remorse for what they did. None at all.

I think the statistics paint a picture.  Although, one has to account for the way the numbers are collected, different policing agendas,  and in the way Cities are geographically determined.  For example, I was in St. Louis when it held the most crime ridden city in America status.  However, much of that was because suburbs like Clayton, where the crime rate is low, were not included with the St. Louis stats, thereby inflating the rate.  In other cities, low crime suburbs are included.

Speaking of St. Louis.  When I go to Toronto, there are people walking the streets at night.  St. Louis, by contrast, is a ghost town after dark.  I absolutely loved St. Louis, could even picture myself living there.  But I don't think I'd ever get used to those empty streets at night.

Is it the crime that does that, or the fear of crime?

People's fear of crime, whipped up by the media and politicians, can really skew public perception.

Welcome to babble, TiradeFaction.

Most anti-Toronto tirades (sorry, but you made me think of that word. ) go along the lines that you described. Some anti-TO rants have thinly-disguised anti-immigration and racist overtones. And some people just prefer to live in other cities or smaller centres. I wish people wouldn't portray the latter for the former.

And you've given the perfect reason to not use wikipedia as a resource for factual items in the real world. Michael Moore's film, as much as I love him, is not a reference for crime rates in Toronto. Stick with the stats. Crime in Canada is on the decline, including Toronto. And I personally prefer not to compare Toronto to USian cities, since, as one of the most violent countries on the planet, of course their stats will make Toronto's look smaller!

High Anxiety, one example is not a trend, and I think I can guess why you picked the example of Jane Creba. While her shooting death was horrible, the media in Toronto and across Canada used that incident for the exact purposes I outlined above. We had numerous threads and arguments about it at the time, I'm not sure if they're in the cache of the "national news" archives.

Crime is down in all provinces (as of 2007) except in Newfoundland/Labrador, NWT and Yukon.

If you scroll down the link you will find Ontario far below the national average in crime rates.

From the link:

Although I make my home in Toronto, I'm happy to talk about legitimate criticisms of Toronto, not re-hashing what I consider to be, as I said above, racist and anti-immigrant sentiments often couched as "high crime" or safety" issues. Such sentiments are also often uttered by people who have never been here and don't know anyone who lives here. Which would be funny except that it isn't.

And I'm going to move this thread to "Central Canada". Non-news items about specific regions of Canada go in the "from far and wide" section of forums, just so's you know, TiradeFaction.

Thanks for the post Maysie.

I suspected that the anti Toronto attitude might in fact be based on anti immigration and/or racism, because I've had some obviously conservative Canadians say they hate that city because "ethnics" run it, which is pretty obviously racism, or anti immigrant at least.

When I lived in the shwa (Oshawa) about 10 years ago it had a higher crime rate than TO. But you never really heard about crime there. Everyone there thought TO was more dangerous that the shwa. I don't know if it's the same now or not but I think perceived safety of a city has more to do with what is reported in the media than actual crime.

TiradeFaction, I'd say your suspicions were correct.

David Miller (who I support) is the WASPy-est mayor we've had in a long time. He's also an immigrant. And we've never had a mayor of colour. When I go to the financial district downtown to Bay Street, an activity I actively avoid, I see lots of white guys in suits running the city. How Toronto is "run by ethnics" is news to me.  How that is then linked to crime rates is an interesting conservative mind-twist, but I really try to avoid the mind-sets of conservative types. Better for my health and well-being, y'know?

50% of Toronto's population are immigrants. See this chart. Please note that of the approximately 1.1 million immigrants in Toronto, 693,000 of them are from Europe. This doesn't mean they're white of course, but it does indicate that racist immigration practices are working, and alive and well. 

And predictions have us reaching the 50/50 point between white folks and so-called "visible minorities" (a horrible term that IMO should be avoided) by 2017. See chart here.  [8]

That's all well and good, but the issue is violence. Compared to Detroit, Toronto is a very safe city. But compare it to Helsinki and it's a very violent city.

Of course, crime rates being down across the board have been siezed upon as proof that "tough on crime" approaches work.  But at the same time, we've seen the criminally prone demographic of males between the ages of 18 to 35 shrink in step with declining crime rates.

Unfortunately, the latter realization sells few newspapers, and can't be used to advantage as an election plank.

That's a very sexist comment.

No, maybe it's a sexist reality.   Do you think the percentages of criminals are the same from males 18-35 as they are females, say, 5-14?

But is the issue violence? I'm asking sincerely.

Since we know where the origins of TiradeFaction's "friend's" suppositions came from, we've moved away from that false state to talking about actual crime, or crime rates, not perceptions.

Well, talking about crime rates always includes non-violent crime. What is the proportion of (reported)* violent crime to reported non-violent crime? Can someone google that? I don't know if the specifics have been released yet, they haven't been for cities, just for Canada.

Yes, Tommy, that's exactly how the reality of dropping crime rates will be taken up, as well as justification for huge increases in police budgets every year.

And High Anxiety, Canada had 594 homicides in 2007, In a country of, what, 25 million, I'd say that's pretty damn low.

Link to CBC article, clearly reporting on the same Stats Canada report I used above.

* For the sake of argument I will not be adding in non-reported crimes, specifically crimes of violence against women in all forms and particularly rape, sexual assault and physical assault. These aren't the "crimes" we can assume the "friend" of TF's was concerned about. The official stats are abysmally low, because of low reporting, which is due to a whole host of other reasons, not because of a decrease in incidents. This would be worth a separate thread, and I believe martin d has started one already, here [14]. 

Edited to add: High Anxiety, reporting on stats that were collected for specific gender crime isn't sexist.

Maysie, not trying to nitpick, but these people are NOT my friends, I simply had some casual conversations with both, and they brought this up when I brought up I'd like to live in Toronto.

For clarification, the first person I talked to was honestly mentally disturbed, and said Toronto was full of rape because she was raped (but I think she may have been making that up since she would have been male then)

The second guy was some typical blue collar Conservative party style voter, who's just an idiot.

--For the sake of argument I will not be adding in non-reported crimes, specifically crimes of violence against women in all forms and particularly rape, sexual assault and physical assault. These aren't the "crimes" we can assume the "friend" of TF's was concerned about.-

Which "friend"? The first person I spoke to main issue of Toronto was it was "full of rape".

Sorry, TF, I use that term, sometimes sarcastically, to refer to someone I don't agree with. I didn't mean to imply this was your real friend, hence the quotes. I can go back and change it if you like.

Of course it's sexist.

Oh that won't be necessary, I just wanted to make it clear these people were not my friends, especially the latter asshole that said "ethnics run Toronto".

High Anxiety, is the fact that 90 percent of sex offenders and sex based crimes are perpetrated by males sexist? I don't think so. Your argument is the same BS I hear about so-called "reverse racism". Fact is males commit more violent crime than women, especially in the age group Tommy_Paine was speaking about. In fact, in all age groups.

And welcome TiradeFaction! Hope you like it here on Babble.

TiradeFaction, may I ask where you live, and where you encountered these people?

I live in California, but I encouter these people online. Via online, I talk to people around the world.

Where online?

In 2005, the murder rate in Helsinki was 12.5 per 100,000. In Toronto the homicide rate (including murder and manslaughter) was 2.0  per 100000 population.

Sources:

http://www.finlandforthought.net/2005/06/15/dangerous-finland/ [25]
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/060720/dq060720b-eng.htm [26]

Chatrooms, messengers, forums, the like.

Why the interrogation?

Just curious as to what type of Canadians you might have encountered. Different forums tend to attract different types. BTW, it wasn't intended as 'interrogation'.

I'm inclined to ask "why the paranoia?", but I wouldn't want to interrogate you.

Eh, I just have a slight paranoia streak that comes natural with me, it's easily brushed off though under the right conditions.

I encounter them mainly on youtube and messenger chats (YIM, AIM, etc.). I've encountered different kinds, some progressive, some assholish conservative ones (like the guy that said Toronto is run by "ethnics"). Another mentally disturbed one who wanted to move to my state of California (I'd be fine trading places!)

Perhaps as it seems for you to encounter these people, you must be inhabiting right wing chats and forums? And welcome!

Stargazer you are absolutely correct. It is not sexist to note who indeed is commiting the crimes. However, perhaps high anxiety is one of those who believe women commit the most, or deserve to have crimes committed upon them?!

I dunno, maybe? I don't think I've met more conservative canadians than progressive, it's been a bit balanced. Thanks for the welcome!

Could you clarify this statement please tiradefaction?

" the first person I talked to was honestly mentally disturbed, and said Toronto was full of rape because she was raped (but I think she may have been making that up since she would have been male then)"

She is a male to female transsexual.

Then I completely do not understand what you are saying, care to elaborate further?

The individual made out the rape instance to have seemed like it happened in a dark alley, ala female victim crime. However, she said it was when she was 13, when she would have been a male, and not really the type guys take down in dark alleys to rape! Still, it's plausible, but the person seemed disturbed, so I don't think I got the whole story.

Discrimination is whenever you assume a certain group has a propensity to crime/violence, based solely on age, race, gender or whatever. That's a fact.

Like I'm being racist when I say black people are prone to having more melanin in their skin.

Discrimination is whenever you assume an individual has a propensity to crime/violence, based solely on his or her belonging to a certain group; or on age, race, or gender.

To point out the fact that certain groups or demographics might actually have such a propensity is not to discriminate against them.

That is wrong for so many reasons.

...and yet you can't seem to provide even one...

I suspect even facts won't deter High Anxiety from crying "sexism" against males. To him perhaps, rape, child molestation and sexual harassment are perpretrated by women. But I'll let him/her answer that.

No actually it is not, it is no different than reporting that more women suffer from MS than men, or that  men die earlier than women do. It is a reporting of statistics and nothing more.

Unless of course it is as I supsect with you.

Tiradefaction - I moved to Toronto for a little over 11 months a couple years ago.  I was warned about a certain neighboorhood when I went, but I ignored the warning and didn't have any troubles going there (the so-called danger was regarding cocaine traffickers, but it came from the anti-Toronto standpoint, so I ignored the warning).

High-anxiety has it right...Toronto having a high crime rate will be relative to what you are comparing it too...compared to American metro's, it's quite safe. 

It's offensive because it makes assumptions on what you will do based on nothing more than the group you belong to (or are believed to belong to). People like Stargazer have their heads in their asses if they believe that's OK.

We're still waiting with bated breath for one of your "so many reasons".

Okay. Moderator hat on. High Anxiety, you can't say things like that about other babblers. Personal attacks are not okay. We can disagree without resorting to name-calling. Stop it.

The rest of you, I advise to not engage High Anxiety on these issues. High Anxiety, this is a progressive discussion board. Please re-read the babble policy statement at the top of each thread if you want to know the rules about posting here.

"Progressive" does not mean you can generalize people's behaviour or propensity to violence based on age/gender/race/national origin/whatever. That's called stereotyping. I'm sure you know that as you are "progressive".

On the other hand, generalizing about the level of violence of a city from a single high-profile media event milked for all its spectacle value is perfectly progressive, so it seems. The homicide rate of 2 per 100000, which is low by most standards globally, comparable to most European capitals, is in fact irrelevant. Apparently. 

Actually Torontoprofessor is Wrong. Helsinki's has a murder rate of 2.5 per 100,000, not 12.5. (12.5 was a typo that got reproduced on the internet). Regardless he is right that Toronto has a lower murder rate than the national average wich is 2.0 per 100,000, and its still lower than whiter than white Helsinki.

Who knew that I couldn't trust the BBC? Anyway, thanks for the correction. As you note, my point still stands that Toronto has a lower murder rate than Helsinki.

What is interesting about that is that Finland's national average is substantially lower than Canada's and indeed one of the lowest in the world, at 0.7 per 100,000. So its easy to see why HA might have the wrong impression about Helsinki the capital. But it is the fact that Helsinki's murder rate soars above that of Finland proper.

Some fellow named Ben Best has set up a page of interesting national and international comparisons: Death by murder.

Interestingly men are slightly more than twice as likely to kill women, as women are to kill men. I hope that is not sexist, to point that out.

Partly because men are responsible for over seven times the number of murders that women are responsible for. Men also account for the 75% of murder victims. Men murder men almost three times as often as men murder women, and women murder men about four times as often as women murder women. A man is about 6.7 times more likely to be murdered by a man than by a woman. And a woman is about 9.4 times as likely to be murdered by a man than by a woman.

(I'm relying on the charts in the page Cueball linked to, which I'm assuming are reasonably accurate. I'm also assuming that there are roughly the same number of men and women.)

That said, neither "the average woman" nor "the average man" is likely to be murdered at all in Toronto: two or three out of 100,000 is an extremely low probability. A fair coin is more likely to come up heads fifteen times in a row than the average Torontonian is to be murdered in any given year.

No it doesn't.  I wouldn't be surprised if North Bay had a higher crime rate.

I smell troll, anyone with me on that?

I've been wondering what's up with that one...

"A fair coin is more likely to come up heads fifteen times in a row than the average Torontonian is to be murdered in any given year."

I never realized that tossing coins was such a high-risk activity.

hello

Goodbye.

According to MacLean's 2009 National Crime Rankings, here in mostly white Cape Breton, with a ranking of 38 out of 100 cities surveyed, with 1 indicating the most dangerous, we're not that far from Toronto's ranking of 29.  Much of the population here is spread out around the island in small communities and hamlets.  If we were all urbanized and living closer together, I think it's reasonable to conclude that we'd be on par with Toronto, or perhaps higher in the 'dangerous city' rankings.  Having lived in Toronto, Winnipeg and Ottawa, I found them all to be vibrant, welcoming places to be, each with it's own unique character.  I'd have no issue with moving back to either of them.

TO is dif though depending on the part of the city. The streets always empty out soon as it gets dark around here and bacc in the day if u were out on the blocc after and the olderheadz didnt know you there would be a problem.

So idk... ppl from AmeriKKKa from hoods in florida, cali, NYC, etc have all come here and said its hood too. They never called it soft or nice or anything lol. They just pointed out that guns and Liquor are harder to get here.

So take that for what u will.