Democratic Coalition ideas

Some think the Coalition is "DeathProof"

According to the Toronto Star..... The Winners and Losers of the Coalition are....

Winners= Harper, Ignatieff

Losers= Dion, Rae

LongTerm Negative Effects= Layton, Duceppe.

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Shop talk in my region is similar to those thoughts. Which means the LPC could make gains by ignoring the coalition as a viable alternative. But use the NDP as leverage against the CPC, but never going down the coalition road.

The NDP are weak.

I agree that Ignatieff and the Liberals are looking strong for the first time in a long time but I think that will change rapidly if he props up Harper.  A lot of the good will he and the Libs are getting right now is precisely because he appears to be standing up to Harper.  If he goes the Dion route of talking shrill but supporting the Cons then that will just cement what a useless entity the Liberal Party is.

I just hope the NDP have bargained for enough if there is a coalition and are prepared to step it up against Iggy if there isn´t. 

Here's who has won so far: the Canadian people. We're getting a stimulus package instead of an austerity package. I'm a New Democrat and I think that, when it comes to the day-to-day lives of working people over the next year, forcing Harper to comply with the G20 stimulus agenda was absolutely worth us losing 60% of our supporters in the West in the short term.

Better renew your membership .... they are going to need every nickel.

 Well, in my area the coalition got positive support so your workplace madmax is your centre of universe but not mine. Personally, the positive spin of Iggy is the MSM cause liberal or tory, the elite class continues to rule and ensure that the stim package goes mainly to them, saves their greedy butts, and crumbs are given or ordinary folks. Look for IE rejig to take at least a year to happen, as Harper and Iggy "study it to death." By then, most folks IE will have run out and they will be off the radar screen and in the breadline. Tsk, tsk, and meanwhile, rapid response to investers, corp types and all other financial type businesses. 

I wanted to scream and when I heard Iggy talking about investing in retraining - that is so boring and passe. Retrain for what - non exist jobs. Just busy work for collectors and a good gig for the job training facilitators. The winner is the guys who land the contracts. It's a hoax and is about making it look like something is happening as opposed to "making it happen."

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Canada has a $130 billion dollar infrastructure deficit today after years of neoliberal restructuring. There is a good place to start.

I am glad the possibility of a 'coalition' has been introduced to Canadians, many of whom (including Harper) seemed unfamiliar with this reality.

Whether this is exactly the time or the people to do it, nonetheless, today many more Canadians realize that we do have that option.

And we sure need some options cos IggyHarper is only one choice, imo!

Is Stephen Harper still Prime Minister of Canada?

LINK. 

I FULLY AGREE !!! I FULLY AGREE!!! I FULLY AGREE!!! 

 Politicians sell this bullshit because it is easy to sell and makes it look like they are doing something.

Many people in the General public, more importantly, those well paid in the PUBLIC SERVICE believe and advocate this bullshit.

It is difficult to present the truth when the myth sells better.

Same can be said for the coalition which blew it. And I do not see any party paying a higher price then the NDP for this association. 

Gosh, who could have predicted that would be a dumb move for the NDP?

It was not a bright move for the LPC either, but they have recovered and inserted a new leader who is virtually a mirror of Stephen Harper. 

They LPC will be able to sell the goodwill of the left once again, and govern from the right if the opportunity should ever arise again. However, the LPC have discarded the coalition and will be trying to posture themselves as the alternative to Harper.

It is typical LPC arrogance and if Harper puts Political Funding back on the  table, the LPC with Ignatieff at the helm will come running back to the NDP to find their courage.

Retraining is not passe.  The more education the more we adapt to the world as it is.  The democratic coalition has a lot of support in my world. 

Elizabeth May would make a great senator.  I'm not  a green voter but I think she is honest, out spoken, environmentally on the mark, and doesn't have a hidden agenda.  Why wouldn't I like her better than some of those who were chosen.  Her party got almost a million votes and no seat.  If she was in the senate those people would have a voice.  They are certainly not going to vote for the conservative demonizers and denegaters no matter how subtely they try to make their little points, and neither am I. Your subtelty doesn't work fellas.  We can spot you every time. 

Retraining is not passe.  The more education the more we adapt to the world as it is.  The democratic coalition has a lot of support in my world. 

Elizabeth May would make a great senator.  I'm not  a green voter but I think she is honest, out spoken, environmentally on the mark, and doesn't have a hidden agenda.  Why wouldn't I like her better than some of those who were chosen.  Her party got almost a million votes and no seat.  If she was in the senate those people would have a voice.  They are certainly not going to vote for the conservative demonizers and denegaters no matter how subtely they try to make their little points, and neither am I. Your subtelty doesn't work fellas.  We can spot you every time. 

The public would have accepted a coalition. As one of Nixon's henchman used to say: "If you have the guts (b***s) to do something - hearts and minds will follow."

All this talk about the "public not liking" Rae or Dion or Layton or the Bloc or Harper or Mackay or anyone else is pure red herring baloney. The public thinks what the media tells them to think, as with time it can become accustomed to anything, including  lies, backtracking, prevarications, corruption, and outright deception.

Think of Mulroney's air scandal, Harper's income trust fund reneging, the Liberals turnabout on NAFTA, blah blah blah blah blah. Nary a whimperfrom the "outraged public" about any of that now.

Don't tell me the coalition couldn't have succeeded. The big boy Liberals didn't want it to succeed. End of story.

I think I know what you mean. But at the time, the vast majority of Canadian voters voted against Brian Baloney for renegging on his solemn promise not to open up free trade talks with Washington.

And then in 1993 elections, Chretien's Liberals made themselves out to be the only anti-FTA, anti-GST, anti-Mulroney party with a chance of defeating the conservatives. The result was NAFTA in 1994, the stupidest trade deal in the history of the world, and a flip-flop on GST. 

Federal Liberals were rewarded again in 1997 with the phoniest majority ever. Needless to say, Canadian voter turnout dropped off after the free trade betrayals and major policy flip-flops. In a comparison of over 160 nations wrt voter turnout in the decade of the 90's, Canada ranked way down the list between Fiji and the republic of Benin.

And the strange thing about it is, Canada has one of the most well educated and informed publics in the world. But even though Canadians voted against the free trade giveaways to corporate America, our dysfunctional electoral system ensured that our two paternalistic old line parties in government were able to override the wishes of the large majority of Canadian voters. First past the post, first past the ghost electoral systems are at the root cause of voter frustration in the last few countries where politically conservative agendas are the rule.

I see no real evidence of this.

The Liberals have not forgotten the torment of abstaining to prop up Harper. I see no evidence that they want to start that again.

And no one has shown us how the Liberals can proceed otherwise than by either replacing Harper with the coalition a.s.a.p, or dying the slow death of abstentionism.

Ignatieff is sensibly lying low so as to relaunch the opposition after the House resumes. I expect he will find the budget lacks credibility -- "Canadians cannot trust Harper to do what he promises" -- and so on. Because he has no other realistic choice, that I can see.

Perceptive words written over two months ago: 

A 2-party system still marginalizes many voices. I think proportional representation has the potential to be far more democratic.

____________________________________________________________ http://www.gandhiserve.org/information/questions_and_answers/faq7/faq7.h...

Where has this person been since 1995? Rao concedes a little of what's happened in that general period but starts off by mentioning the Liberals swinging to the neoliberal right in 1995, which is true. He doesnt mention anything about a neoliberal bank heist of the century with changes to the Bank of Canada Act in 1991 and rammed through parliament by Mulroney's conservatives without any debate. That was the year our phony majority leader of the day effectively privatized money creation in Canada. And the Liberals fell in line with the infamous federal budget sabotaging the federal social transfer in 1995. Maybe the devil made them do it.

The NDP has strongly opposed every single rightwing neoliberal deal that's been made in Ottawa, including FTA and NAFTA. Perhaps Rao has a a selective memory? He paints a picture of the NDP falling in line with the neoliberal agenda though and says they didnt talk about deficit spending during the campaign, but they did. Layton mentioned that the Harpers were moving the country toward budget deficits with their laissez-faire attitude on the economy.

In fact, political Conservatives in both the US and Canada are prolific deficit spenders. Republican conservatives have set galactic records for spending Americans into bottomless national debt holes. Both Canada's Tories and Liberals were responsible for digging Canada into a federal debt hole after racking up $590 billion in debt by the 1990's. But Rao seems to want us to believe that the NDP have now fallen in line with neoliberal ideology themselves. Rao is spinning the truth, and in fact it's our two oldest political parties that are now trying to distance themselves from the second-hand economic voodoo due to the obvious collapse of neoliberal deregulation in banking and finance around the world. That's what they call a no-brainer. Rao doesnt mention that neither the Tories nor the Liberals have mentioned that they arent mentioning anything about the need for further neoliberal deregulation to help North America out of this deregulation mess. In fact, it goes without mention. Rao seems impervious to the fact that neither of our old line parties actually do what they pledge to do during election campaigns. Does anyone need a list here to refresh their memories? In fact, our two neoliberal political parties have perfected what's known as the neoliberal flip-floporama of colossal proportions, and no pun on proportional elections advocated by the NDP intended. Our two old line parties have been the biggest liars since, well, Pinocchio. 

Someone should tell Rao that Liberals and Tories are the real "Keynesians" According to a government report [53], Liberal and Tory governments at either level of government typically can't balance a budget far more often than provincial NDP governments which tend to be more fiscally responsible. It's the NDP who are "fiscal conservatives" and the two old line parties the stimulus-loving Keynesians. That might throw this spin doctor for a reverse loop.

Harper and his apologists like to claim that replacing his minority government with a Coalition having the support of the majority of MPs -- and MPs who were even elected by the majority of voters, for a change -- would somehow be "undemocratic."

An Alice-in-Wonderland argument, as we can see:

Aha!  Lurking way below the radar and moving at the glacial pace we are familiar with:

http://www.oliphantcommission.ca/English/About/about.php

With the economy heading south, having Steve's mentor in the dock (again) just may refresh some memories re who voted for what and when, possibly even raise an eyebrow or two among the populace, as the breadlines they're standing in reach the horizon and beyond.

I can easily envision some potential crankiness here.   

I agree that all the public fear of the coalition was planted in the papers. Coming from a part of the world where coalitions are totally normal, I saw shocking dumb remarks from political pundits all the time and their expressions! It was as if they had to eat raw shit from a pig farm. Murphy at least.

I certainly think your idea is plausible. I cannot find any reason for the GG granting Harper an extension when Harper lost the confidence of the house.

Harpers reason, coalition is unstable hardly qualifys when he himself called off his last minority government due to instability.  

UNLESS she is working for "The BIG BOYS" who control the liberal party. They wanted to quash the Dion attempt to retain power. Fearing that it would be permenently retained. Also, they feared rae would eventually beat their lovechild in a fair fight down the road. So first they used the gg to kill off dion. (remember he would be PM right now if the GG had used logic) and then they used the liberal party exec to beat rae.

Iggie is doing his best to nullify the coalition for his masters. Its a theory and it might be true. I believe a coalition is necessary to finish off Harper. This is essential for Canada to continue as a democracy.

But Iggie could fuck it all up if his masters are dumb enough. 

I  have strongly backed JAck and the colation but some of the thoughts on its tuture , such as versions of "Unite the Left",  make me nervous.  We need a braader discussion in the party on  a colaition or accord and where we go from January 28th.   repeat the call for a Federal council.

Is Iggy a nationalist?

18,000 jobs goin' south with unrefined oil from tar sands

Free trade at twenty [59] by Duncan Cameron

Let's hope the Igg man still holds that thought til at least the end of the month or next perogy fest, whichever comes first.

Enjoy. 

Elizabeth May is no different then any other backroom dealing politician.  Just because ones hidden agenda becomes exposed, doesn't mean it wasn't meant to be hidden. I see you have changed from saying "She" received almost 1 million votes to "her party" received  almost 1 million votes, just ignore the fact that she  contributed to the failure of the coalition with her quest for a self serving Senate Seat.   

We need a referendum to abolish the Senate or face further abuse from the likes of Harper, the next Liberal Government and elitists like Elizabeth May who believe they are entitled to large salaries and little work.

Once the Senate is abolished we could offer former Senators jobs in community service such as street sweeping. Then people like "senator May" could do something for those near one million people who voted for "her" ermm, Green.

What on earth are you talking about???

I grew up in ireland in retraining mode. I got turned away from numerous jobs with the "you are overqualified" talk.  So I had  the mad max sentiment for years. Germans would tell me "ireland is going to be the boom area of europe and i would say, "have you been there?" in disbelief.

but when things finally did turn around, Ireland was ready with the youngest best trained workforce in europe. So speaking from experience, if you figure out the right retraining, then it can be a very good thing.  It is probably a lot better to retrain people than to blow the money on the suv companies.

I do not want to buy a car but now I am being forced to pay for cars for the next 20 years. 

Ontario is not about to "turn around" when the purpose of the free trade agreements is to dumb down the economy, while creating the illusion of a technical and well paying service sector economy.  Considering I have both College and University and many many certificates, and there are more on the horizon, you mistake the fact that I am a believer in education and training.  Education and training provides a person with something that cannot be taken away. 

However, the is this mindset out there that all the people unemployed or losing their jobs are uneducated or poorly trained nicompoops who, if trained, will earn a better living and more secure future.

Once again, I watch as the government retains quality assurance/inspectors etc, in the health care fields, only to discover their is little to zero full time work available, and then these same people find themselves working for a temp agency back in a warehouse or manufacturing environment.

As for being overqualified, if you are applying for government jobs, that is never the case, and if you are applying in the private sector, you tailor your resume to the position applied. Dumb it down is very common, as the jobs that have been created in the "new economy" require few skills and are part time in nature.

The people being displaced from Auto, a small sector of the industrial economy that has been shattered in Ontario, has some of the more highly trained and skilled workforce to be found, much like anyone involved in manufacturing. 

The country requires an industrial policy.

Fact is, Ireland did what China did and that is what Ontario had but surrendered after a hundred years. If you think we can employ engineers for $600 a month, or get people to read Xrays for $249 a month, it is not going to happen. 

People need jobs to go to and as far as I can tell, if you want to make 2 to 3 times + vs the trend in the private sector, you must get a public sector job.

The Coalition has the best platform with regards to forestry and industrial policy. This is a result of the NDP challenging the official positions of the LPC which was the same as the CPC.  The LPC has to change if it is going to make a difference and needs the "coalition partner" to hold it accountable. 

 Fact is Ireland has a higher income than Canada per capita. Presumably you think that irish rates are $600 per month?

Fact is i came over here for a woman. Fact is I left a high paying job to do so.  

Fact is, you do not know fact from fiction. 

To clarify.  My intent was not to box Chinas wages with Irelands, unfortuneately, it can be read that way, which if read that way, is wrong, so my apologies for the confusion of my sentence struture. My intent was to demonstrate that both Ireland & China have a well trained and skilled labour force to meet the latest labour market needs in order to secure capital investments supported by government incentives. However, those countries, have been well positioned to receive foreign capital investment along with government incentives. 

Canada has the same well trained workforce. It is this workforce that are losing their jobs, the same jobs to china and elsewhere.  I only intended to compare the wages of an Engineer in China, which can be had for as little as $600/month. 

Same goes with CNC, Lab Technologists etc... and when we consider workplaces such as Banks, Insurance, and Communications, all these operations can be run and many are run from India or in some cases Africa.

Thus, getting a financial quote, or an insurance quote, in fact getting past the quote and purchasing policies, stocks, or communications service is done outside of this country, same for diagnostic services.

Canada has become a resource export nation, a warehouse nation, and is rapidly becoming a post industrial nation.

Losing the industrial base, at this rate, will lead to a meltdown. The cost of losing these jobs over the past few years has had a large effect on local economies.  This was the trend that was supported by NeoLiberal economic and trade policies supported by consecutive liberal and conservative governments. It is a throwback to a time before Canada was a nation and all we did was supply resources for Europe and behave like a good colony.  

Sir John A MacDonald created a country with a National Policy that would have made no Econonic sense at the time. Certainly a policy that would never be supported by free market capitalism. But it built a country.

We have no governments with a vision for Canada. Growth for Growth sake built upon an expanding low wage economy is not healthy or sustainable, and when the downturn occurs, there is no boomcycle that returns a better future for more Canadians, just an end to a downturn, with the wealthy able to make bigger gains.

Fact is, Mr. White, I am concerned about the Canadian Economy and the government policies that are nothing more then Platitudes and spin.

I work with the government on its training programs and they have made many positive changes to their training programs to allow more people to participate and take advantage.

But this is only one side of the coin.  

If there is anything Elizabeth May doesn't have it's a hidden agenda.  She is refreshingly outspoken and honest.  It is not wise for conservatives to talk about who has and has not got a mandate.  The democratic coalition would have a mandate of 62% of voters.  The NDP has a voice because it has members of parliament.  We need proportional representation of some kind.   The system we have is so skewed it is an embarrasment.  Every developed country has some form of proportional representation except Britian, US, Australia and Canada.  I can't believe the rest of the world is all wrong. 

Actually Sarann,

Even Australia has a form of PR, the Single-Transferable Vote, for their Senate elections.  Not my preferred method of PR and not in the House of Commons, but still something.

Harper can no longer be trusted, his financial statement revealed his

true intentions, the tip of the iceberg if he were to win a majority.

His back-down on those proposals is only temporary, a short term

sacrifice toward winning a majority, but he will enact all those

proposals eventually if he gets the chance, and he can do a lot of it

with "executive orders in council" without passing laws or even

consulting parliament. If he realises his days are numbered as P.M.,

then he may do as much damage as possible under ashort-lived minority

returned to power by the new liberal leader Michael Ignatieff.







Hopefully you all have figured most of this out, Neither The liberals

nor any of the opposition can support Harper when parliament is

recalled, he intends to sell off canadian federal

assets, probably to his friends at bargain prices alla Haris and hwy

no. 407, or the failed Ontario Realty Board SCandal, in which Earnie

Eaves pocketed 50 million by flipping an Ontario Provincial realestate

asset which he purchased with a provincial loan for 20 or 50 thousand.

Many others were given the same deal, it is unclear to me if all were

stopped and moneys returned as it was not well covered by the media, i

wonder why? Remember also that Harris , that means Flaherty and Clement

also, intended to privatise Ontario Hydro- thankfully we had the great

blackout of 2003- remember, other wise they would have done it, and then

were would we be now. And harper can do such similar things without

consulting parliament:



If Harper passes one confidence motion- namely a comprehensive ( if

vague) budget, he won't allow another confidence motion until he's

ready for another election, perhaps as short as six months to a year-

he'll rule by "executive orders in council " and effectively undermine

Federal laws and parliament as he did during the last two years, and he

will sell off valuable federal government assets in the

mean time, though he may promise not to because of the coalition,

but we know what his promises are worth. He will do it eventually, we

have to get him out of federal politics once and for all, for the good

of the country!





Canadians deserve to understand his real intentions, he intends to sell

off canadian federal assets, just like mulroney and harris- he has

admitted it and he will do it



The media is distorting public opinion polls, and may try to force an

immediate election if Harper loses a non-confidence vote- Canadians need

to be prepared to win an election if somehow the g.g.

choses to ignore democracy, and with this info we can persuade the g.g.

to allow the liberals to form a minority government. If Harper wins, we

all lose, just as with Mulroney and Harris, they are all cut from the

same cloth.







We need to get rid of Harper from parliament, once and for all, for the

good of the country, and for the good of the conservative party- they

need to get an new leader and this will help them understand

that- he has disgraced himself with own sincere plans as revealed in

his financial statement, backing down from that is only temporay, we

know what the truth is now, we know what he do if he got power again.

Under Harper the conservatives can never win a majority government

because of the damage done in Quebec, they don't understand that has

reprecussions in the rest of central and eastern Canada, with a much

more sophisticated understanding of la Belle province than Western

Canada.



He Can't be trusted, His budget must be brought down regardless of its

contents, because there are no laws to make him stick to it if there are

any ambiguities in it, or do so much more with "executive

orders in council", Harper, Flaherety and Clement must be defeated.

If the conservatives are allowed to rule, those three must resign and

be barred from any access to government, but that sort of compromise is

not likely if possible at all. Therefore Ignatieff must ask the g-g to

be allowed to form a government, and she must concede to his request,

otherwise democracy has failed, the social contract is broken and

"peace", order and good government are in serious peril. Harper can't

be trusted, we must not have another election till the coalition has

been given a chance.



good luck, the country is depending on you, don't let us down



At the very least you must warn the public of this grave threat -

harper's plans to privatise public assets, billions and billions of

dollars worth, in his own words, and explain it clearly, link him to the

407, through flarhety and clement- don't forget about the listeriosis

debacle, due to deregulation like walkerton- work the facts, don't let

the media force its selective memory on the canadian public, we need the

coalition now, before harper does anymore damage , and he will with

executive orders in council. act boldly, act now!



Harper can't be trusted! Regardless of the content of his next budget,

He must be forced to resign! There must not be another election until

the full effects of the last election are allowed to be carried

forward, there is no justice without due process, the coalition must be

allowed to stand!

This is nowhere near the 62% myth and the LPC/NDP were foolish to promote a 62% figure only to be undermined by polls that gave roughly 41% support for the coalition.  Which isn't a terrible figure in politics, but is a far cry from 62%.

Cool idea..... I rarely hear about PR on babble :)

Here is an article stating that Jack Layton paid the biggest price for supporting the coalition.

So how does the coalition find its feet. An aloof Liberal with more in common with Harper then Layton. An NDP sliding in the polls and unable to speak its mind, while part of a coalition that is currently DEAD SILENT.

Is it time, the right time for Layton to cut bait officially regarding the coalition.

Clearly the LPC believe they can stand on their own two feet now that they NDP showed the LPC what a spine looks like.

Currently the LPC are playing the NDP as a side dish that they can take or leave.

The failure of the Dion lead coalition plus the lack of committment from the LPC has left the NDP holding the coalition baggage and the BQs laundry ticket. 

How does the NDP pry itself away from what could well turn out to be return to the 90s in terms of public support.  Is there a way that the NDP can regain the agenda and take the initiative now that the LPC has put the breaks on the coalition choo choo.

Many media pundits have claimed this. But what Liberals have said so? Links, please.

Wow, I wish this were true.

Unfortunately we have a bait and switch going on. Canadians need and want a stimulus package and instead we are going to get diminished government through tax cuts that will be sold to us as a stimulus package. In a recession that is expected to last over a year, it is bad advice to load up on debt and people won't fall for it -- not business and not individuals. What we are going to get is almost no stimulus but further help for those who have at the cost of those who have not. And they got at least some New Dems confused or fooled. Harper has won this big time. Canadians are so sadly misinformed and the media too compliant that they will think that a round of tax cuts to the rich is in fact stimulus. I started a thread on this with an admittedly long post trying to explain this earlier today.

 Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis says coalition is finished,

 Liberal MP hinted Thursday that a Grit-NDP coalition to bring down the ... could end up pitting MPs in the coalition against each other. .

Guelph Liberal MP Frank Valeriote has become the first in his party to openly oppose--albeit.

And Liberals are ready to ditch the tainted word coalition.

Liberal MP Marlene Jennings in a recent interview with the Canadian Jewish News. According to reporter David Lazarus, Jennings, who served as the top Liberal negotiator for the deal, reacted with impatience whenever the word came up. "There is no coalition," she told him.

Regardless of the posturing and shifting away from the word coalition, the Silence of the Liberals is deafening

And by the way the new Liberal leader was clear in the last election that he likes tax cuts-- so he and Harper will cut the taxes for those of us with decent incomes and screw the people who really need help.

In the long term as I said in my other post the government ability to do anything including maintain basic programs will be compromised-- this recession is a neo-con's dream-- under cover of darkness they will dismantle the government while calling it stimulus. Next year they will say the cupboard is bare and the axes will come out. Health care? Can't afford it-- here you go private sector. 

Please everyone, stop thinking Harper and crew are stupid. They aren't. While you think you won something you just got screwed. These people think strategically and long term. It is essential that people start to review what they are saying and doing in terms of the long range effect this will have on their clearly stated objectives of smaller governments from themselves and a framewok imposed on future governments that forces them into the same situation. Massive tax cuts are difficult to reverse. First you have the economic blow they can create when taxes are first imposed and second they are difficult politically. The Cons know they are taking apart something that would take incredible resolve and will and likely decades to put back together. And, these guys are looking that far down the line.

I said before the NDP has to move away from the coalition and some people here said to me no, no stay the course somehow when the NDP is left alone there will be benfits in being in a coalition by ourselves.

Politically, the damage is already happening, we are associated with an idea that has unfortunately been discredited and abandonned. Like any relationship the one left behind usually suffers more than the one who left. When the Liberals were screwing around and Dion blew it, we should have walked. Then we might have preserved our ability to re-introduce the idea under circumstances that might lead to success and thereby look like leaders rather than losers as we do now.

It would have cost the party no political capital to admit that the public was only luke-warm at best and the Liberals were in no position as yet to lead a coalition. this would have been a small attack on the Liberals that would have done us no harm in admitting the truth everyone could see. Then we could have come back in the future saying now is the time. 

By not admitting that this was not the time we will not be believed when we say it is. And that could have been as early as the dropping of the budget on the 26th.

If the NDP had backed away in mid December and gone back to the public with an aim to get support and advice as to what to do with the budget we might have come full circle by budget day with a winning option but now we are more likely to be seen as irrelevant, predictable opportunists who have so little public support that nobody need listen. And if the Cons do something really aggressive we could end up in an election we could lose badly.

This is what I thought then and in the last month, there has been nothing to change my mind. Our one track policy has led us to posturing about the coalition rather than addressing the bigger problem with the Cons idea of replacing a direct stimulus with more tax cuts.

Frankly there is a lot at stake here. I think Layton's leadership could be doomed if the party continues to misplay this one. It may take a while but he might never recover as leader.

You have to be seen as dynamic, as leading and as aware of the political realities. Sticking with a coalition that in the end resulted in ending Dion's tenure leaves Layton associated more with Dion and failure than success. And the coalition is an option that could be revived-- that is exactly how Ignatief is playing it. He can revive it when he thinks it can work and he will look like the leader and Layton won't.

your trusting the corporate media as to whether the coalition is alive or not? There is your fundamental problem in your reasoning- the corporate media is trying to support this junta of harper's that is completely undemoratic- in any other civilised country there would have been a smotth transition to a coalition- its only in third world puppet democrcies this kind of manipulation of democracy would be allowed. so the corporate media is our enemy, and democracy is at stake- no exageration here- and if i could believe me i would exagerte, except the stakes are to high. And yes this is a high stakes game for jack, but not for the party, and if jack is hoping to have any influence on the national scene he must be willing to take chances, as long as he sticks to legitimate actions, and not worry about the hype and bias of the press- canadians are smasrter than that, and were sick and tired of being bullied by the media- democracy is at stake. I turned away from jack because he had been propping up this conservative government, if he continues to do that he will have completely lost all integrity, now is no time to quit, he must stand by his priniciples, to the to the end, to finish  what he began, or he really will be scene as a laughingstock. The strongest moves in chess are threats, let the coalition stand as a threat, if iggnatief decides not pull the tigger, it will be his responsibility for supporting harper, but leave the doo r open to wrok with all sincere parties in the house, leave petty political fighting aside. Iggnatief is a much more credible leader than dion or harper and because he is a little further to the right than dion, the coalition has that much more chance than before of succeeding. We can't afford another month of harper incompetence, much les a year or two. We need the coalition now- democrcy must be allowed to stand, the results of the last election must be aceepted, it was harper who called the election and asked for a majority- it was rejected, those results must stand, the coalition must be handed the reignsof government as is their legitimate democractic right and duty.Harper can't be trusted, no matter what promises he makes, no matter how good his budget sounds, if its a good budget, the coalition will enact it.

Harper can no longer be trusted, his financial statement revealed his true intentions, the tip of the iceberg if he were to win a majority.  His back-down on those proposals is only temporary, a short term sacrifice toward winning a majority, but he will enact all those proposals eventually if he gets the chance, and he can do a lot of it with "executive orders in council" without passing laws or even consulting parliament, he's already shown he's willing to defy his own laws recently passed such as the fixed length of term for federal elections.  If he realises his days are numbered as P.M., then he may do as much "damage" as possible under a short-lived minority  returned to power by the new liberal leader Michael Ignatieff.



Hopefully you all have figured most of this out,
Neither The liberals nor any of the opposition can support Harper when parliament is recalled, he intends to sell off canadian federal assets, probably to his friends at bargain prices alla Haris and hwy  no. 407, or the failed Ontario Realty Board Scandal, in which Earnie Eaves pocketed 50 million by flipping an Ontario Provincial realestate asset which he purchased with a provincial loan for 20 or 50 thousand.  Many others were given the same deal, it is unclear to me if all were stopped and moneys returned as it was not well covered by the media, i wonder why? Remember also that Harris , that means Flaherty and Clement also, intended to privatise  Ontario Hydro- thankfully we had the great blackout of 2003- remember, other wise they would have done it, and then were would we be now.  And harper can do such similar things without consulting parliament:

If Harper passes one confidence motion- namely a comprehensive ( if vague)  budget, he won't allow another confidence motion  until he's ready for another election, perhaps as short as six months to a year- he'll rule by "executive orders in council " and effectively undermine Federal laws and parliament as he did during the last two years, and he will sell off valuable federal government assets in the mean time, though he may promise not to because of the coalition,  but we know what his promises are worth.  He will do it eventually, we have to get him out of  federal politics once and for all,  for the good of the country!


Canadians deserve to understand his real intentions, he intends to sell off canadian federal assets, just like mulroney and harris- he has admitted it and he will do it

 The media is distorting  public opinion polls, and may try to force an immediate election if Harper loses a non-confidence vote- Canadians need to be prepared to win an election if somehow  the g.g. choses to ignore democracy, and with this info we can persuade the g.g. to allow the liberals to form a minority government.  If Harper wins, we all lose, just as with Mulroney and Harris, they are all cut from the same cloth.



We need to get rid of Harper from parliament, once and for all, for the good of the country, and for the good of the conservative party- they need to get an new leader and this will help them understand that- he has disgraced  himself with own sincere plans as revealed in his financial statement, backing down from that is only temporay, we know what the truth is now, we know what he would do if he got power again.

Under Harper the conservatives can never win a majority government because of the damage done in Quebec, the conservatives don't understand that has reprecussions in the rest of central and eastern Canada, which has  a much more sophisticated understanding of la Belle province than Western Canada.

 He Can't be trusted, His budget must be brought down regardless of its contents, because there are no laws to make him stick to it if there are any ambiguities in it, or do so much more with "executive orders in council".  Harper, Flaherety and Clement must be defeated.

    If the conservatives are allowed to rule, those three must  resign and be barred from any access to government, but that sort of compromise is not  likely if possible at all.  Therefore Ignatieff must ask the g-g to be allowed to form a government, and she must concede to his request, otherwise democracy has failed, the social contract is broken and "peace", order and good government are in serious peril.  Harper can't be trusted, we must not have another election till the coalition has been given a chance.

good luck, the country is depending on you, don't let us down

At the very least you must warn the general public of this grave threat - harper's plans to privatise public assets, billions and billions of dollars worth, in his own words, and explain it clearly, link him to the 407, through flarhety and clement- don't forget about the listeriosis debacle, due to deregulation like walkerton- work the facts, don't let the media force its selective memory on the canadian public, we need the coalition now, before harper does anymore damage , and he will with executive orders in council. act boldly, act now!

Harper can't be trusted! Regardless of the content of his next budget, He must be forced to resign! There must not be another election until the full effects of the last  election are allowed to be carried forward, there is no justice without due process, the coalition must be allowed to stand!

Why all the hysteria? We will know whether the coalition lives or dies in exactly two weeks. Either Ignatieff decides to stand up to Harper and become PM in which case the NDP gets to be part of the governing coalition OR Ignatieff shows extreme weakness and goas back to the Dion strategy of being a coward running away from confidence votes like a dog with its tail between its legs. If the latter happens, then we probably have a good year of a Harper absolute dictatorship and during that year the NDP can blame Ignatieff for being responsible for every single solitary reactionary thing the Tories do.

People - stop getting hung up on th hort term and look at the long term. In almost every case, if the NDP paid attention to advice proferreed by all these chicken littles - god only knows how badly off we would be. I remember all the predictions that making a deal with Paul Martin would cause the NDP to lose official party status. I remember just a few months ago everyone freaking out over how Elizabeth may and her merry band of amateurs would drive the NDP into single digits. I remember so many of you freaking out about how the NDP would be wiped off the map for daring to oppose the carbon tax!  

I have confidence that Layton and his strategist know what they are doing - they have been right far more often than they have been wrong. 

where did you buy those rose tinted glasses, cause i guess i need a pair, because i am not an ideologistist or a party hack-  wn't blindly trust any man woman or party- as far as i'm cpoincerned the last four yeas have been a disatster for the country, we went from a 13 billion dollar surplus, which jack had the opportunity of forcing martin  to spend on infrastructure, and soccial justice issue, nation child care- to tory incopetance with the tacit supprot of the new democrats- and if we allow the liberals to trust this little dictator again, we may be in for 4 or eight more years of tory incopetence, but the ndp has a few more seats, wow, i guess i do have my priorities mixed up. and who cares if democracy is demolished by the media, the ndp may get a couple mpore seats in the next election, may be officail opposition status in an impotent opposition to a harper majority- but the ndp parties will be better with afew more seats we'll get more funding, if the torries don't eliminate as they promised in their last finacial statement a harper wish list- i guess i do need those rose tinted glasses

A spelling note from your friendly neighbourhood pedant: it's "laissez-faire" (hands-off), unless there's an ironic intention to your spelling, M.Spector, implying that some hegemonic folks are too lazy to do anything.

But I do agree with you that the Liberals have already had too many nails driven into their coffin... by their own.

On the Newsworld Politics Programme tonight, Susan Bonner questioned Ralph Goodale:

Bonner: We heard Ministers today saying that infrastructure sounds like its going to be a priority in terms of spending to stimulate the economy, Mr. Baird saying it's an immediate shot in the arm. What are Liberals thinking about what they would like to see in terms of more spending on infrastructure?

Goodale: "Well, Susan, this initiative should have been taken a long time ago. We know that under existing government infrastructure programming there's a backlog of about 3 billion dollars of projects that have gone through the vetting process as far as local communities are concerned, but the money still sits in Ottawa and has not been disbursed across the country. So there's that backlog that should never have existed, it goes back to 2006. The government should do its own homework and get its own program up and running and out the door as it should have done over the course of the last two and a half years. Secondly, there will need to be incremental investments over and above what is normally budgetted for for the coming year. What was budgetted for for past years never happened, so . . ."

Clear inference: they didn't spend the money they already had in the budget, so regardless what they promise to spend on infrastructure in this month's budget, why should Canadians trust them? 

Not an argument for supporting the budget or the government.

 I agree with Wilf and Stockholm.  I think that regardless of what happens the NDP can look ahead to better numbers in parliament. In my local paper, they noted that economists are almost universally NOT inpressed with Harpers stimulus.  It is basically tax cuts for the rich. They all note that this has been tried with spectacular failure in the USA. They even have figures (from the prior trying of this type of tax cuts by gerogie boy)  for where the money is going to go.  Rich people will use the money (the income tax gift)  to pay down their mortgauges,  What good is that to someone who just lost his job?

 A stimulus package involves no tax cuts, rather the government putting money into road improvements (not more roads, but improving the ones we have), and cycleways, or windmills or solar hot water conversions on houses. (Something that provides employment for the people who WILL get laid off very soon) and improves the energy efficiency of our economy long term.  Even tree planting. (The forestry companys were allowed to IGNORE their duties with regard to planting as soon as there was a slight downturn).

(Tree planting companies laid off staff bigtime last summer)

There are MILLIONS of hectares of BC forests that could be replanted in a sound way ( different species of trees planted together) so no more beatles destroying monoculture.  LOTS of work out there.

We just need a government with a bit of imagination.  Tax cuts is a gift to harpers cronies. A stimulus package is something very different. 

Same result with regard to government debt. It WILL go up.

But would you rather pay down the mortgauges for rich people or would you rather have a job next summer? 

Thats the message we have to get across (and probably to liberal voters most of all) to stop Iggie sucking up to Harper. If we get that mesage across, Iggie will have to back down and become PM.

Fucking stupid statement but it is part of the odd reality that is Canada today! 

From Paul Kellogg's open letter to Jack layton:

I agree with M. Spector.

The NDP needs to return to NDP issues and concerns and get away from the rotting body of a long dead coalition. We are looking like the literature classic where the family keeps the dead relative at the table as if she were alive because they do not want to admit she died (can't remember which story this is but I am reminded of it now).

We would not be saying we are not in favour of a coalition, just showing that we can recognize facts and are not living in a fantasy-- this would allow us to move on based on current realities. We do not have time for this to play out and we will end up shortly opposing not just a Con budget but a Con-Liberal one. Our strategy needs to be more appropriate than it is now. The first question may be why can we not support a budget endorsed by a partner of ours?

Paul Kellogg should explain to his students that Canada is a Northern colony of the U.S. and projecting their foreign policies for many years. And I hope Kellogg is also explaining to his students just how this obsolete electoral system has frustrated millions of Canadian voters since an extremely undemocratic neoliberal agenda was foisted on Canadians by U.S. and Canadian rightwing ideologues since Brian Mulroney.

If Kellogg does desire to point out a list of important differences between the NDP and the two big business and pro-USA parties in power and sharing power in Ottawa for the last 140 years in a row, I think I might be able to send him a brief lecture outline for the sake of better informing his students.

But apparently the choices are not difficult at all for Kellogg and the young people he talks to. This particular bit of Ottawa's vicious toadying to US empire expansion in Central Asia has put him and his students over the top. They've decided to take a stand on one single issue come the failure of neoliberal policies-induced financial meltdown around the western world or high water, and to heck with Canadians losing their jobs or the scores of children still living anywhere below poverty in this Northern colony. United we stand divided we fall. And there are so many issues for the left to be divided by. Paul Kellogg and his youthful friends have discovered their single issue and are going to challenge Canada's plutocracy and vicious empire without the NDP. Good for them, and I hope they achieve something by it. Meanwhile the two big business parties still arent budging on Afghanistan. The NDP could do nothing and quit this democratic coalition, but quitting on Canadians is what the Harper coalition of scabbed together rightwing forces have already done. Quitting is not an option for the NDP based on a single foreign policy issue. The troops are in the Stan for a few more years, and everyone knows it. Meanwhile there is no shortage of other issues just as important as phony war in the stan that need tending to. 

And this would excuse the NDP's capitulation on Afghanistan how, exactly?

Perhaps you could help by explaining how a perfect proportional representation system would bring the NDP to power with just 2.5 million votes?

Blaming the electoral system is a cop-out. Even if you could explain why the NDP is under-represented in Parliament it doesn't explain why they have to knuckle under to the neoliberal war agenda.

You could start by explaining the difference between the positions of Jack Layton and Michael Ignatieff on Gaza.

At present CTV is airing the Ignatief townhall on the economy.

As I said more than a month ago this is what the NDP needed to do-- instead we are left with a dead coalition idea watching our main electoral opposition in our competative ridings show us how it is done.

The NDP frankly is looking out of touch and irrelevant at a time when it needs to pick up the agenda in very public and visible ways. 

The problem is this navel gazing -- this believing in our own propaganda -- this blaming the media and others when we don't have the right communications plans and this idea that we already have it right if only people would listen.

Sure there are a number of things we have done right but unless riding up and down the polls between 12 and 20% is considered success this is not good enough. We do need to engage the Canadian people and we need to stop excusing ourselves pretending its only about corporate money and prejudice.The NDP website provides 5 tour dates from the 15th to 22nd of December saying more to come-- here we are three weeks later nothing yet. But what did we learn from those held meetings? Well the NDP site has a few sound bites and theatre but under "plan" on the site we get the 2008 election platform. Nope, we have not put on the site any proposals or anything specific requests for the budget. The News of the last couple weeks on the site? Here are the statements on the site:

Statement by Jack Layton on the death of Canadian solider: Trooper Brian Richard Good

Statement by Jack Layton on the celebration of Orthodox Christmas [89]

Hon Jack Layton’s statement on Canada’s gold medal win at the World Junior Hockey Championships [90]

New Year’s Greetings from Jack Layton [91]

Statement from Jack Layton on the deaths of three Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan [92]
New Democrat statement on the situation in the Middle East [93]

Merry Christmas: A holiday message from New Democrat Leader Jack Layton [94]

Statement by NDP Leader Jack Layton on the death of Jim Fulton [95]

Hanukkah Greetings from Jack Layton [96]

Eid-ul-Adha Greetings from New Democrat Leader Jack Layton [97]

The above is everything from the last month. For a party that claims to have Canadians back in a time of need, for a party heading into a crucial budget vote at a time of economic crisis this is simply not good enough. In fact it is no better than the other parties who we claim don't give a crap about working Canadians.

There is no indication on the NDP site that anythign at all is being done in preparation for the budget discussion beyond the vague three week old promise of more dates on a tour that has reported next to nothing of consequence.

The Canadian Centre For Policy Alternatives released a proposed alternative budget -- not a surprise as they do this every time but we did not comment on it at all. Why not?

Phil Fontaine released his comment two days ago: 

http://www.nationtalk.ca/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16607 [98]

Is the NDP a leader on these issues, a follower or irrelevant. This is not a time to stand around congratulating each other on what we have done but a scramble in the national interest to see that working people and vulnerable people's voices are heard. 

I get that the NDP may have trouble getting the word out on CTV news but surely it could be more up to date and dynamic on the economic crisis on its own website. This performance the last 4 weeks when we needed to step up to the plate has been about right for a party aiming at public support in the teens not one that wants to lead the country. If there is more being done then perhaps it is only the web staff that need to be given a wake-up call or moved to less demanding work otherwise there is a real leadership crisis in the party-- there is no waiting now. these days are analegous to an election campaign in their importance for timely action by the party. 

We better be doing more than posting 4 trite quotes from meetings  held a month ago if we want to be taken seriously on the economy. What choices would we make? What infrastructure would we priorize? How much would we spend? What is our position on tax cuts rather than direct spending?Where the hell is the urgent statement on EI provisions with what changes are required right now? Wher eis the updated NDP plan for the economy?
We say we want to be in government in 3 weeks but we sure don't look like it!

If all you think this is good enough- I hope you are happy in your self delusion-- if you think that any other party will do this job then think again. If you think that the party needs to do much better then call them, tell them. Light a friggin fire under someone's ass-- let them think it is their own job at stake -- at least they will think a bit more like millions of real Canadians we claim to support.

Crazy George II led our stooges into the Stan. We're there until at least 2011 unless Paul Kellogg and his fresh faced friends know another way. In addition to Canada's long-time stoogeocracy's vicious toadying to Crazy Jorge de la Yayo, I'm sure I'm not the only Canadian with a few things to add to a long list of what's wrong in this Puerto Rico du Nord. We can all go our separate ways and pout in our different corners, but it will only instill even more power in the hands of those who have it. So I don't think Paul Kellogg's approach is going to bring the troops home this time, during this particular Crazy George II-led phony war on terror. But we do have  to think about a next time.

And with Crazy Steve wanting to spend like a wild man on military and all things military in coming years, the prospects for having to volunteer more Canadian troops to aggressive U.S.-led phony wars abroad in the near future are fair to excellent by the looks of things. Remember that Paul Martin said in response to a US reporter's question as to why Canada wasnt sending troops to the phony war in Iraq, former PM PM only stated that Canadian forces were stretched too thin as it was then, not that he wouldnt like to.

 I do appreciate your posts, M Spector, but after 140 years of the same-old same-old, I think it's time Canadians tried something different.

It's the dynamics of the current first-past-the-ghost system that distorts results, really. We have to consider not just why the NDP doesnt have the number of seats they should have if one person equalled one vote, we also have to consider that many people who do still believe in our dated electoral system enough to vote are voting strategically so as not to elect another Brian Baloney, or that they simply want to vote for the winning party or any of a myriad of reasons why some record low percentage of voters voted the way they did within the context of a first past the majority electoral system invented before electricity. You'd have to consult the babble experts on how eliminating the democratic deficit in Canadian elections might play out over time, because I can only speculate myself.

They're trying not to have to knuckle under to 100% of the neoliberal agenda as opposed to only some of it until such time as the democracy gap, which is now a canyon in this frozen Puerto Rico, can be dealt with by democracy-loving Canadians.

Right now with our phony electoral system, the leaders are obligated to give pat, brief comments on the situation in Israel. It's kind of like when the stoogeocracy in Ottawa helped out the CIA and US military when the vicious empire invaded Haiti for about the 25th time in 2004. How many Canadians are paying attention to what the NDP thinks about the war on democracy in Latin America anyway? With FPP and what Canadians have become used to over the last 14 decades in a row with politics, the NDP just doesnt have the time or resources to spend on a single foreign policy issue or any other single policy. Right now the best the NDP can do under the circumstances is let the two old line parties burn down to the wick with their failed second-hand economic and foreign policies. If Canadians really dont like the vicious toadying to US empire and imperialist ambitions abroad, then vote NDP but not for more of the same. It's pretty easy when you think about it. The NDP can lead the horses to water but cant make'em drink. We need a new way. The old way wasnt working some time ago.

to madmax, how did harper get into power- firstly jack brought martin down, then jack passed a throne speach and gave himself a raise along with the rest of parliament, a money bill to cement the tory minority two years ago, jack crowned harper. Had jack instead used his position over martin, a lot of that 13 billion dollar per year surplus could have been spent on ndp supported policies such as a national childcare program, education, healthcare etc. And while the ndp has been 'soaring' on the verge of winning a majority according to some here, the conservatives have bankrupted the country in the best of times, how can we support our policies while we allow the conservatives to demolish the country. All these arguements over petty points are interesting, almost admirable theoretically/ asthetically, but principles have to be measured with the results of actions, to support the conservatives in action, reardless of of all your vocal protestations, over the liberals is like cutting off your head to spite your arse- I think most of you are really closet conservatives if not actual just pretending to be leftists, because thats the effect of your advocasies- and it is this petty idiotic hairsplitting of princiles which holds the ndp back, not to mention the far left (trotskyites/marxist-lenninists/ad infinitum )which is probably the root of the problem. For example, If you can't see elizabeth may is a tory sabatour you must have been dropped on your head as a baby- why else would she run in an unwinable riding, she's done a great job undermining/ splitting the left and bleeding the centre, its time for her reward,her turn at the trough to quote her former boss b.m.: maybe a senate appointment or some back room job with a great pension- once a mulroney hack, always a mulroney hack- pay less attention to their words and more attention to the effect of their actions, its time to wake up canada -who says the coalition is dead, only tory hacks, and if the results of your advocacies is to support the tories you need to look into the mirror a long hard time- the caolition is alive and well, and many of you will be surprised iggy can taste it and he will not let the coalition down-it was only under dion he hesitated to support it- with himself running the 'new minority government', it can't fail and harper's carreer is dead- quit your petty squabbling- try to see the big picture, for the near future as well as the long term, you have to stop living for a perfect future which will never come because you can't focus on today and tommorrow. as long as the ndp attacks the liberals they will end up supporting the conservatives- the enemy of your enemy ends up being your friend-ancient chinese wisdom only an idiot would argue with, the ndp must out perform the liberals not beat them up, otherwise they will be doomed to marginalisation,but most of you don't seem to care about that, perhaps are comfortable with it afraid to do anything for fear of criticism of not being perfect, but i'm probably wasting my words, bob has not betrayed his ideals, he's become more pragmatic, and i guess he's realised that most you committed ndpers need to be committed- you're intellectually stunted and closed minded, more concerned with winning petty arguments than actually improving reality and doing something- perhaps its just an excuse for lazyness, an excuse not to do anything- on the brink of victory but too afraid of the responsibility, ready to give up the cause and throw in the towel- don't advocate the end of the coalition, just quit it yourselves like the losers you are, we'll welcome you back once we've kicked out the bum dictator and cleaned up the House .

I find it incredible that the NDP can't mount a grass roots campaign for a real response to the economic situation we are in now. We are not supposed to be tied to the right wing policies that got us here and so should have more options to bring to the table.

dear sean, don't stop dreaming about a better future, but work on improving the present

m.spector, how did they miss kicking you out of the ndp when they got rid of buzz, probably you'renot in the ndp, your either a lenninist or a tory its hard to tell the differance, both totalitarians in sheeps clothing- just a shit disturber bouncing from one contradiction to another self contradiction- you true ndpers need to learn to filter out the frauds, and not waste your preceous intellect arguing with them, you have little enough as it is to go arround

There's something unheard of for a politician... 

I don't have much faith in politicians who advocate for torture :)

But if you say he won't let us down..... What me worry  

One might question the LPCs interest in the NDP and the coalition which is probably no longer needed as many LPC MPs and supporters believe. Many LPC supporters believe the LPC can stand on their own two feet and challenge Harper alone.

I will forward your message  to the LPC MPs..... I am sure they will be happy to read it. 

Roystin, if they want to vote for stoogeocracy, then they are entirely free to do so. It's their democratic right to vote for the total Americanization of Canada and some other really stupid things that have happened in this country over the last 30 years or so. But the choice is theirs. Who are we to ask why?

Apparently Iggy talked this over with his coalition partner.........Stephen Harper.

Tax Cuts

Iggy is the man.  So what is the difference between Harper and Iggy again?

Well at least Iggy is making sense when he does talk about tax cuts. Supply side conservatives in the US explain the 1929-30's economic depression in a certain way that says manufacturers werent producing enough product for people to buy and leading to depression.

That and a lack of money in circulation.

Demand side Liberal Democrats in the US explained that the last deep economic depression was due to the poor and middle class not having enough money to spend on products and services while the rich were hoarding money. That and a lack of money in circulation.

So which is it? Do poor and middle class Canadians have enough money to increase overall demand and stimulate a labour-led economic revival across Canada?

I think the difference is that Stephen Harper will suggest that his multibillion dollar tax cuts for rich people and corporations will trickle down to the rest of the economy, like Ronald Reagan said would happen.

Here's what I think. I think tax cuts for the rich and corporations will lead to some recovery and take longer to work but cost a lot more than tax cuts for the poor and middle class. Money to the poor and middle class will work to stimulate a labour-led recovery more quickly than expensive and unecessary trickle-down a la Steve Harper and his Republican Party wannabes.

That's my point. What's yours?

Sean, Why should the 62% majority back down to herr Steveler and his American style spending on all things war and economic madness in general?

we can all relax i have it on very good authority that iggnatief will vote to defeat the harper budget- and there is no way the g-g. can deny iggy's request to form a government, get the champers ready! and lets ignore these tory plants, the rotor tiller is coming , they'll make great composte, national composte. congratulations to all you pro coalition bloggers its all but done, very sincerely- i would forward the e-mail i recieved from one of our most heroic m.p.s confirming this but that might be indiscrete- but maybe i will some other time- anyway congatulations and relax its all over for harper now!

Where do I bet?

where ever, how ever much you want, but we really don't care what tory hacks, in disguise or in the open think, and if you've heard any rumours about iggy supporting harper, thats just a scheme to lure harper and his neo-facist agenda into the open which i helped cook up, although there was enough in the financial update that this scheme isn't abssolutely necesary, but it also has the effect of taking the neo fascists and their propagandists in the corporate press off guard and cooling things down: if harper wants to hang on to power, then he has to be friendly with the liberals over the next few weeks and iggy has the opportunity to be polite and cordial, and offer some hope harper can continue to govern, there's no need to give him any warning he doesn't have a prayer. harper is out, along with his comon sense goons flatulence flarhety and cement head clement. But maybe i'm bluffing and iggy really will back harper, yeah thats it, aww shucks! hah! The new minority government is on for the 28th of january- yes iggy may seem almost as bad as harper, but we're only comparing with harper's tip of the iceberg, there's 90% more that is very scary, which we would have had to live with if he had the chance to win a majority- but thats all over now, the neo cons will hold a leadership review in the spring, much to the relief of many back bench conservatives who have been holding their breath waiting to see if this little dictator harper could actually win a majority- they're tired of being pushed around and silenced by this little tyrant and will throw him out, ensuring a fairly lengthy minority liberal-ndp government, as they hold a leadership review in the spring,a leadership convention in the summer or early fall, probably mail in after a short campaign. HOPEFULLY MCKAY OR PRENTICE WILL BRING SOME REAL COMMON SENSE INTO THE CONSRERVATIVE PARTY, before harper destroys it as his idols mulroney did with the p-c's federally and harris, flarety and clement did with the p.c.'s in ontario- its not good for democracy to have the conservatives demolished over and over again, its bad for the ndp and the liberals- though its nice to gloat over in the short term-the reply from the m.p. confirming the demise of harper's government, was a forwarded letter sent to a select few riding constituents a couple of weeks ago, his resending it reaffirms his commitment, and though it is wisely cautious and humble, the implications are clear as to what will happen in the house come end of january,here is a short exert:

Mr. Flaherty’s Economic Update, however, turned out to be fundamentally, economically, distressingly inadequate. It did not reflect the dimensions of our problem. Other countries were acting seriously and determinedly. ...(he was) not.

But Mr. Harper just couldn’t resist. He chose to do what he had done before, but never so outrageously as this time. It was the very wrong moment to do the very wrong thing.....


Second, a coalition government, though unusual in Canadian experience, is absolutely contemplated under our Constitution. In our Parliamentary System, a Government needs the support of the majority of the House of Commons. With a majority government, that support need come only from all the members of the governing party. With a minority government, there needs to be support from members of other parties as well. Mr. Harper’s Conservatives have 143 seats out of 308 in the entire House of Commons. A majority, therefore, is 155. The Coalition represents 163 seats. Just as it has been for the 141 years of our history, this Coalition would be a Government that represents the majority of the House of Commons. Again, different from what we are used to but entirely contemplated by our Constitution.


The last point –

I have said all that I’ve said above because the situation we have before us is not just about Canadians deciding between a Harper Government and a Liberal-led Liberal-NDP Coalition Government.

There is no doubt the Coalition has its work cut out for it. Between now and when Parliament resumes on January 26th, it must demonstrate to Canadians that it can be a strong, stable, effective Government. It needs to begin planning and setting out its priority directions like a Government. It needs to be ready to govern if it is called on to govern by the end of January. That is its challenge. That is its bargain with Canadians.


But Mr. Harper has a challenge too. And his challenge, I believe, is even harder.


A Prime Minister sets the tone of the House of Commons. Respect gets respect. Disrespect breeds disrespect. The Prime Minister is now fighting to stay on to win a battle that need never have been fought in the first place. To preside over a Parliament whose dynamics, whose very relationships, he has poisoned and destroyed. It’s too late. This Parliament cannot work with this Prime Minister. All of us have heard the angry voices every day in the House of Commons, and now across the country.


Mr. Harper has scorched the earth of civility and trust for all of us. For him, it is over. He cannot be trusted. He cannot repair what is irreparable.


We need a new Prime Minister.

Nor do I. A hack is a hack.

I do care about the level of support for the coalition outside of the two parties.

Facebook support against the coalition is 161,655

Facebook support for the coalition

"I am part of he 62% majority" = 35,579

"I am for a progressive coalition" = 23.047 (of which many are the same names as above).

The anti-coalition page continues to build support and I had never heard of it until today.

The Pro-Coalition pages have been around for over a month. They lost their drive sometime around the Dion fiasco and the suspension of parliment.

Momentum is still an important part of politics and Conservative supporters are still milking the tit, whereas Coalition supporters have sucked theirs dry. 

And just look where shifting to the right has the Liberal Party sitting with popular support. They havent enjoyed as low a level of voter support in several decades. 

Canada's Republican Party wannabes led by Harper emptied their largest of all election campaign war chest and mustered 22% of registered voter support - not enough for even a legitimate phony majority. That rightwing coalition of Reform Party retreads, rightwing Liberals, and Mike Harris refugees are stranded - stuck in the mud - and still saddled with Brian Mulroney's rightwing legacy. Canadians dont trust the well-funded political right enough to hand them a phony majority.

I think Iggy is smart enough to know that continuing to prop up the Harpers as Dion did for two years will translate to record low support for the LPC. And I think Iggy may well realize that the shortest route to the PMO is through the 62% coalition.

Either way one or both of the big business parties will be shifting to the economic left. By how much and whether it will be enough to fool Canadians is anyone's guess.

Roystin and Fidel, it is a fantasy to assume that all 62% of people who voted against the Conservatives were indeed in favour of a coalition.

Roysin, It is a fantasy to assume that all those who are in favour of a coalition think that concentrating on it is the best current policy for the NDP

It is a fantasy to assume that all those who do not agree withyou are not NDp supporters, are Conservative plants and are not open to a coalition if one could be possible.

I am an NDP member. I have signed all pro coalition petitions. My support is public on my facebook page.

I still do not believe that a single minded coalition stance is the best for the NDP. I think it was right in early December but we should have admitted that the Liberals were not ready to lead and then waited for the budget to come down before restoring the idea. In the meantime it would be good for grass roots Canadians not in the NDP leadership to continue to call for a coalition in the hope that the added support would be enough to allow the Liberals and NDP to return to the idea. It is never a good idea to continue to claim an agreement is there when oneparty clearly is reviewing options. Also I have never supported the NDP prejudging a specific budget. I do not believe that we should assume a position until the document is there as that undermines our opposition when that is the most likely result anyway. If you still think I am a Conservative plant, I guess I have nothing that is polite further to say to you.

If you feel the need to check out what I am saying you can do so with my full name. If you wish it, message me and I'll give it to you to check out my face book page etc. My name has been posted here before so it is no secret who I am and there are years of my comments here to clearly indicate that I am a progressive who believes any party is richer for having a debate about disagreements rather than blind loyalty. You, who have only joined in the last week should stick around and read more before you start identifying long-term posters here as trollsor Conservative plants. And by the way if you read back only one month you will see that I posted a statement that I then sent as a letter to the editor criticizing the proroguing of parliament. Not very difficult research to figure out who I am and what I support. But I guess in your 4 days here you have not had time. Maybe you should read abit more before you attack people-- much of the poeple you disagree with are people who have long been established not to be Conservative plants- you have not been here long enough for us to know anything about you.

If anything I think the threat of coalition will have forced the Harpers left on the economic end of it. "Stimulus" wasnt a word in Flaherty's vocabulary leading up to the standoff. That's changed now. I think the NDP and Liberals will be deciding which parts of the Tories new stimulus is actual stimulus and which of it is no-strings attached free money give-aways to big business and banks as usual and decide from there.

Agreed Fidel but would add that the tax cut component needs to be in the list along with free money giveaways as totally useless. Tax cuts to consumers right now will not restore confidence. In fact if you make it clear that the feds have a jobs strategy that will renew more consumer confidence than extra money in their pockets they will feel the need to save.

Certainly, we need to total the amount of real stimulus and get that number out there and evaluate it as soon after the budget comes down as possible. The Cons also have a habit they learned from Liberals of re-announcing spending that was there previously and not spending money set aside only to claw it back later.

I still believe we needed to back away from the coalition idea when Dion faltered as a return to it now would be more credible for us.

I admit I have two agendas here: one I would like to see the Cons out of power but also I am concerned about the politics and the relevance of the NDP since I do not consider the Liberals progressive partners in even a medium never mind long term. The NDP has to always be at the edge of these discussions as  this is the only party reliably representing working and vulnerable people.

Mansbridge's three panelists on the economy last night said three different things wrt highest priority for the government's budget. I liked what Stanford said about real stimulus - there should be $20 billion spent every year for five years on infrastructure and environmental projects. The RBC markets spokeswoman said that getting credit markets lending again is number one. Stanford did comment, for example, that 50% of all new cars in Canada are obtained under leasing, and that the financing for new car leases has normally been done through the bond market, which is now prettty much frozen. And the Fraser Institute economist didnt really deny that stimulus is the wrong direction only that the feds have to be careful with spend now pay later attitudes, which I thought was pretty meek coming from those guys.

the only opinion poll that counts is on election day, we just had an election, the results of that election must recieve their full due process otherwise all future elections are meaningless and democracy in canada is dead, we have yet to have a government based on that last election. sean, you need a basic politics course if you want to discuss the issues, canadians vote for their local m.p. -it is each m.p. or thier party that decides with their conscience what to do till the next election, its called representive democracy, as opposed to the ariopagitica of ancient athens where each citizen ,no slaves or servants, went to the legislature to vote: direct democracy, (they also invented the black ball system, a history lesson harper will soon never forget)- we do't need to vote for a coalition or against, in fact it was harper that called the election address this point! i double dare ya!, said he couldn't work with any of the oposition asking for a majority- he lost the election based on his own framing of the context and didn't even deserve to present another thrown speech, but he was making nice so they let that thrown speech pass- his financial statement showed his true colours, so he's out- full stop. if you want to respond deal with these facts, and this chain of logic and reasoning, otherwise you're just wasting your breath- its just subversive distraction propaganda tactics and i'm not easily distracted, certainly not by b.s.- it is not the details of a budget that is being prejudged, sean, but the trust and confidence required to carry that budget forward  faithfully and competantly, harper has lost that trust- regardles of whats in the budget, if its good, the best ideas will be taken up by iggy, that's why we idealy have elections every four years or so, to trust the system to work things out -we don't vote for a p.m. directly, so get over that aspect of our democracy-i'm writing with all potential and actual readers in mind, not just the other writiers here and whether you or anyone else is a plant or not is your personal choose and right, freedom of expression and association-the third option is 'closet' plant/hack, one who doesn't even know the full implications of their actions, repressesed, subconscious, flawed reasoning faculty or just afraid to admit the truth and come out into the open, and that too is anyone's right, i'm not trying to 'out' anyone just deal with the facts and their implications for my concerns, which are democratic government and due process-inseperable really, so whatever words you want- if you really are a progressive democrat, look closely at the conservatives and what they have done, thats your choice: are you with them or against them- don't let them destroy the country by default because the liberals, ndp or a legal working cooperation of minority parties in the house aren't perfect, they are guareenteed to fuck things up drastically less than this neofascist religious- fundamentalist closet-racist/ bigotted oil-barron puppet, were you around during harris and mulroney and the fall out from their regeimes, the conservative party was reduced to 2 members of parliament for good reason -it was torn assunder and the wounds have yet been fully healed, many conservatives joined the liberal party, joe clack, david orchard, brisson and many others, the consevatives cooked up this scam with the green party( though many may be sincere tree huggers, just a bit niaeve-like catholics-many sincerely thought the crusades and the inquisition- torture were good ideas, and will still defend that history) because the division in the conservative ranks can not be healed, mulroney was/is too toxic , and so they are trying with some success to divide the centre/left and far left, or at least bleed some of it off- and so harper is just as toxic, it just takes awhile for things to sink in, not everyone is equiped with such long range foresight- brevity denudes tact and diplomancy so if you're offended by my comments, don't take it personally, if you can't see how much damage these neo cons have done to the country- to the world, how much more they threaten to do- many of them must be sociopaths because they only seem to care about their personal greed- and if you're a liberal or new democrat and /or a compasionate human being, and can't see the very real threat and danger of this then hurting some people feelings is called for- wake up before things get worse-stop getting lost in the minutiae- regarding stimulists and cautionists about spending, does anyone think the second world war spending was balanced, that was the only thing that ended a decade long depression, it was much longer and worse in euope, do you have wheel-barrel for the cash to buy a loaf of bread, if the neocons are allowed to continue to govern- we would still be in that depression if it were not for wild spending and more wild spending to rebuild europe and japan, bush admitted today that the tarp and all the other bailout spending, as repugnant as they are were trying to prevent a furthering of the melt-down that would be "much worse than the last depression" in bush's own words today, and there's no guarentee thats been achieved yet, it all may still collapse completely resulting in a depression much greater than the 1930's depression, much scarier and spending is the only way out, only we'll build greener technologies and infrastructure as well as tradition green neutral  stuff, instead of guns and tanks, which paved the way for 50 years of prosperity and war- and if you listen to any of these neo-cons at all, in disguise, in the open or in the closet, then we're in really big trouble this time, and the survivalists and the michigan militia(oklahoma)will be the only one's ready for it - i wish i were exagerating or wrong- wake up people, and the harper tories are determined to take us down the same road bush went down, destroying the country for personal profit- no exageration or margin for error- iggy will get rid of harper immediately- again , for those of you who missed this the first time, and aren't in that riding, from a distinguished m.p. (and a personal child hood hero of mine though i'm from ontario- thats a clue as to his/her identity), who would't say such things publicly without the support of his/her colleagues, harper is finished:

"A Prime Minister sets the tone of the House of Commons. Respect gets respect. Disrespect breeds disrespect. The Prime Minister is now fighting to stay on to win a battle that need never have been fought in the first place. To preside over a Parliament whose dynamics, whose very relationships, he has poisoned and destroyed. It’s too late. This Parliament cannot work with this Prime Minister. All of us have heard the angry voices every day in the House of Commons, and now across the country. Shout and scream versus shout and scream.



Mr. Harper has scorched the earth of civility and trust for all of us. For him, it is over. He cannot be trusted. He cannot repair what is irreparable.



We need a new Prime Minister.



That is what I believe.



In the next days and weeks, we will be preparing ourselves for the return of Parliament on January 26th with Michael as our leader. It is our job to provide to Canadians the best that is in us whether in opposition or in government. That is what we will endeavour to do."

don't mistake formal politeness and cordial caution as indecisiveness, no one in the opposition trusts harper reardless of how good the budget will be, none of the opposition will support it, they will leave the door open for him, and the rest of the conservative to contribute to the coalition( but they have more important things to decide, how quickly to get rid of harper clemnt and flarehty, stackwell would make a better leader than harper, so his days as prime minister are over, and hopefully for the good of the conservative party and the country, leader of the conservtive party as well, and if they're smart they get rid of flaherty and clement as well, they probably lured harper further astray than he was already-its over, get used to it- new topic for this discussion thread, what should the coalition do first, or who's going to one of iggy's town hall meetings. will obama meet with harper before he's out just to rub salt in his wounds for the nafta sabotage leak, or will he wait to talk to the next p.m. iggy, he's already meeting with the mexican president, whats he waiting for to meet the canadian p.m. even obama knows harper is out- and that probably wasn't leaked to the press by a harper aid- but who knows

Do you really expect anyone to read that?

sounds like you did- or should- what didn't you like about it or was it just too long i guess the first line or two say it all though-

the only opinion poll that counts is on election day, we just had an election, the results of that election must recieve their full due process otherwise all future elections are meaningless and democracy in canada is dead, we have yet to have a government based on that last election. sean, you need a basic politics course if you want to discuss the issues, canadians vote for their local m.p. -it is each m.p. or thier party that decides with their conscience what to do till the next election, its called representive democracy, as opposed to the ariopagitica of ancient athens where each citizen ,no slaves or servants, went to the legislature to vote: direct democracy, (they also invented the black ball system, a history lesson harper will soon never forget)- we do't need to vote for a coalition or against, in fact it was harper that called the election , address this point! i double dare ya!,and said he couldn't work with any of the oposition asking for a majority- he lost the election based on his own framing of the context and didn't even deserve to present another thrown speech, but he was making nice so they let that thrown speech pass- his financial statement showed his true colours, so he's out- full stop. if you want to respond deal with these facts, and this chain of logic and reasoning, otherwise you're just wasting your breath-

a letter from a coalition m.p. to his/her constituents  resent /forwarded to me recently-January 8, 2009 4:43:35 PM EST (CA),reaffirming its contents , maybe you'll read this! spector of doom

“I had originally drafted this letter after the events of last week.  The events of this week have also been of great impact to Canadians so I will try to speak to them as well.


We now have a new Liberal Party leader, Michael Ignatieff.  I support Michael and I support the process by which he was chosen as our leader.  It is time for us to present to Canadians a permanent leader.  Our economic situation as a country is such that world governments will be taking important decisions in the next months.  The Harper Government, to say the least, has not responded to the global crisis in any real way.  It is our job as the principal opposition party to push the Government to do more, and to do what is necessary.  It is also our job, in this minority situation, to present to the public a party that is ready and able to govern.  That requires a permanent leader who will plan and act like a permanent leader, and who is seen by Canadians as the permanent leader.

 

Michael has the overwhelming support of Liberal Caucus and of members across the country.  I look forward to the important weeks and months ahead.

I would also like to say a few words about Stéphane Dion.  This has not been an easy last two years for him or for the Party.  No one in Canadian political history has had to deal with the kind of abuse that Mr. Harper rained on Stéphane.  But he hung in there and kept to those things he believed.  In hockey, they say the “tough guys” are those who deliver thunderous bodychecks to their opponents.  But to me, it’s easy to deliver the checks.  The real “tough guys” are those who are willing to take a check to “make a play” – to make a pass to set up a goal.  Those who are willing to accept whatever the punishment in order to achieve the bigger goal.

 

And that is Stéphane.  He is as tough as they come.  He went into politics not to get his name in the papers but because he thought those things he believed in most could be best pursued through politics.  Now he is leaving as party leader, the public having delivered the message that he didn’t represent what they wanted as a Prime Minister but also, after all the blows, with his reputation for honesty, decency and intelligence absolutely intact, if not enhanced.  A very significant achievement.

 

Now to last week.  Let me try to tell you what I think –    

 

This is a time when we face the most serious economic crisis since the 1930s.  It is a time when as Canadians, as a world, as Parliamentarians, we know we need each other.  We know we need to come together.

After the Speech from the Throne on November 19th, things began promisingly.  All parties, knowing the expectations of Canadians, talked of working more cooperatively.  There had been enough bad experiences in the past that MPs couldn’t be anything but tentative about this, still the words were there.

 

Mr. Flaherty’s Economic Update, however, turned out to be fundamentally, economically, distressingly inadequate.  It did not reflect the dimensions of our problem.  Other countries were acting seriously and determinedly.  We were not.

All that would have been bad enough, but there was something more.  Again, this was a time to work together.  There was just one thing to focus on – the economy; people’s jobs; the well-being of families.  Nothing else mattered.  We knew that.  Everyone knew that.  But Mr. Harper just couldn’t resist.  He chose to do what he had done before, but never so outrageously as this time.  It was the very wrong moment to do the very wrong thing.

 

He decided as part of the Economic Update that there should be the elimination of public support for political parties.  He argued that everyone needed to tighten their belts, and politicians should take the lead and set an example.  What could be wrong about that?  Except, of course, the impact of cuts like this relative to the economic crisis was practically zero; and further, the impact of this on what was his real intention would be anything but “practically zero.”

 

Mr. Harper knew that this would mean all the Opposition Parties and any fledgling party such as the Greens would be affected far more than the Conservatives, and that in the next few elections at least (and with minority governments these elections happen more often), these parties would have a far harder time competing and potentially winning, which real and fair competition is the basis of our democratic system.  Further, that this action, so wrong on its own, was doubly, triply wrong in the context of an economic crisis where everyone needs to work together.  Where everyone needs each other.  Where everyone needs to trust each other and focus on just one thing: the economy.

 

This was Mr. Harper at his absolute worst (one would hope) doing something so completely so utterly political, so completely so utterly partisan and non-democratic, so fundamentally, so disturbingly, so outrageously wrong.

It was at this point, after knowing finally and forever there was no way of working with Mr. Harper,  that the Opposition Parties began talking seriously about whether we could work with each other.

 

Coalition governments are not what Canadians are used to, and that makes Canadians anxious and uncertain.  That is understandable.  But coalitions are not at all uncommon in other very successful, very stable Western democracies – e.g. Germany, Netherlands, Belgium. And given the fact that we have four parties represented in the federal House of Commons and both the Liberals and Conservatives are strong enough to elect many Members (unlike a few years ago when the Conservatives were not), minority governments are now more likely, even probable.  For a party to govern, it requires the support of one or more other parties, not necessarily under a formal agreement as would be the case with a Liberal-NDP Coalition, but with other-party, often Bloc, support nonetheless.  That was what happened with Mr. Martin’s Government.  That has been the case with Mr. Harper’s.

 

As we go into the next few difficult weeks, let’s keep these things in mind:

 

First, this would be a Liberal-NDP Coalition, led by the Liberals with a Liberal Prime Minister, where the Finance Minister would come from the Liberal Party, where 18 of the 24 Cabinet Ministers would be Liberals and 6 would come from the NDP.  This is NOT a Liberal-NDP-Bloc Quebecois Coalition.  The Bloc is NOT part of the Government.  Their part of the agreement is ONLY to vote for the Coalition when there are confidence votes during the next 18 months.  They have no cabinet positions.  They have no say in the direction of the Government or Government policy any more than, as an opposition party, they do now.

 

Second, a coalition government, though unusual in Canadian experience, is absolutely contemplated under our Constitution.  In our Parliamentary System, a Government needs the support of the majority of the House of Commons.  With a majority government, that support need come only from all the members of the governing party.  With a minority government, there needs to be support from members of other parties as well.  Mr. Harper’s Conservatives have 143 seats out of 308 in the entire House of Commons.  A majority, therefore, is 155.  The Coalition represents 163 seats.  Just as it has been for the 141 years of our history, this Coalition would be a Government that represents the majority of the House of Commons. Again, different from what we are used to but entirely contemplated by our Constitution.

 

The last point –

I have said all that I’ve said above because the situation we have before us is not just about Canadians deciding between a Harper Government and a Liberal-led Liberal-NDP Coalition Government.

There is no doubt the Coalition has its work cut out for it.  Between now and when Parliament resumes on January 26th, it must demonstrate to Canadians that it can be a strong, stable, effective Government.  It needs to begin planning and setting out its priority directions like a Government. It needs to be ready to govern if it is called on to govern by the end of January.  That is its challenge.  That is its bargain with Canadians.

 

But Mr. Harper has a challenge too.  And his challenge, I believe, is even harder.    

 

A Prime Minister sets the tone of the House of Commons.  Respect gets respect.  Disrespect breeds disrespect.  The Prime Minister is now fighting to stay on to win a battle that need never have been fought in the first place.  To preside over a Parliament whose dynamics, whose very relationships, he has poisoned and destroyed.  It’s too late.  This Parliament cannot work with this Prime Minister.  All of us have heard the angry voices every day in the House of Commons, and now across the country.  Shout and scream versus shout and scream.

 

Mr. Harper has scorched the earth of civility and trust for all of us.  For him, it is over.  He cannot be trusted.  He cannot repair what is irreparable.

 

We need a new Prime Minister.

 

That is what I believe.

 

In the next days and weeks, we will be preparing ourselves for the return of Parliament on January 26th with Michael as our leader.  It is our job to provide to Canadians the best that is in us whether in opposition or in government.  That is what we will endeavour to do.

 

Thank you for letting me know what’s on your mind.  Thank you for the chance to let you know what’s on mine.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mr. Harper has scorched the earth of civility and trust for all of us.  For him, it is over.  He cannot be trusted.  He cannot repair what is irreparable.

We need a new Prime Minister.

That is what I believe.

did you see harper's last press conferance, even he knows its over, you can tell from his body language and tone of voice, the difference is subtle, a live tree or a dead one, but it was obvious to everyone with a pulse

it is not the details of a budget that is being prejudged, sean, but
the trust and confidence required to carry that budget forward 
faithfully and competantly, harper has lost that trust- regardles of
whats in the budget, if its good, the best ideas will be taken up by
iggy, that's why we idealy have elections every four years or so, to
trust the system to work things out -we don't vote for a p.m. directly,
so get over that aspect of our democracy-

Roystin -- sorry to say this -- it is not that your post is too long, long though it is, the problem is that it is incoherent. When you write a long post you should make it at least flow a bit. Edit it so that readers don't have to struggle through each and every line to see what you are saying. Write in sentances. Organize your thoughts. I read long books but I would not read a single chapter written the way you are writing here. Stream of concious thought works for very short bursts- if you feel the need to write much longer, as I do often enough here, at least try to organize it a bit.

To answer the part directed at me: yes, I did study political science. There is nothing I said that is inconsistent with our political system. While a coalition does not itself stand for office, each member of it does and it is not unreasonable for them to be aware of that accountibility. It is indeed relevant to ask if a coalition has broad public support from those who elected its members-- to think otherwise is overly simplistic. I have done my best here not to respond to your insult in kind. However, I will recomend that you refrain from making assumptions that a person is ignorant merely because you disagree with them or do not follow the same logical path to conclusions they do.Not every disagreement is about educating each other. Some are explorations of ideas and you will stunt that (at least where your discussions are concerned) with an attitude like the one you expressed here.

Long thread - feel free to start a new one (on topic).