Should Danny Williams lead the NDP

I think Danny Williams is amazing but with this legislation, I like him even more!

We love Danny here - we're next door to NFLD and Labrador.

Just make him Prime Minister

Newfoundland's richest man can do no wrong, eh?

Well, perhaps caving to environmental inevitability will become  the winning position for anyone who can read stock market reports. Certainly, Danny boy would know all about the determinants of corporate action, read yearly reports, just as he knows how to play the people.

Sure beats RodMac here in NS anyway. Everytime a foreign company even hints that their profit margins might be slipping he's right there wasting our resources to shore up their bottom line. Its damn hard to see how he serves the people rather than the foreign corporate bosses. Danny may serve himself but he is also serving the people. Just cause he's a Tory there is no shame in admitting he's hands down the best premier in Atlantic Canada, if not the whole country.

Well, a note of caution:  it's all words to this point.   We'll see how this plays out.

But with all the plant closures that have been happening over the last couple of years, it's nice to see a politician at least talking about fighting back.

Perhaps when other Premiers see how popular this is, it will start a trend.  And it's a nice shot across the bow of Corporate Pirates in general.

This is pure populism. Williams is no socialist. Think of this as parallel to Williams ABC campaign. He gets crossed, he hits back where it hurts.

But Danny Williams has always been a fighter, and has always been very critical of Harper. I don't think he belongs in the same Con category. Danny Williams has always been fighting to get the right things done and you know, this is the first time I even knew he was a Tory (obviously of the Red Tory days).

Speaking as an Atlantic Canadian, politics in Nfld have always been of another breed. Without a populist, Joey Smallwood, Nfld joining Canada is either unlikely to have happened or have been delayed even longer than 1949. I see Williams as an heir to the Smallwood legacy.

Conservatives in Atlantic Canada TEND (and yes there are exceptions) to be of the Red Tory variety. Except for the COR experiment in NB when the PC party had collapsed, conservatism of the Reform variety has made very few inroads in Atlantic Canada.

I think the Reform incarnations (Block Alberta) got caught being derisive of maritimers in general more than once.   I think when Harper united the wrong under the Conservative banner,  Maritime Provincial Conservatives had to make sure they distanced themselves from that crowd.

So, it's not earth shaking that you see Danny Williams, a Conservative, railling at fellow Conservative Stephen Harper at every chance he can get. 

I think Danny would be a great unite the centre leader. The united Lib and Cons party.

Unfort that would do none of us any good.

Wow.  Not only is he doing this, but I think Danny Williams is the only premier who is lowering tuition instead of increasing it.

Is Danny Williams leading the progressive movement in Canada.  And if a Conservative is nationalizing shit and lowering tuition, why the hell isn't Gary Doer?

Although it should be noted that it doesn't sound like the government is planning to run it as a crown corporation

Well,

Taking away Abitibi's rights to our natural resources seems like a no-brainer. Why exactly did they think we were giving that to them? Because we like giving corporate welfare to US companies?

Obviously, there was an implied trade of resources for jobs. Take the jobs away, and the resources get taken away too.

The only problem here is that Williams took control of the physical assets of the company. While Williams is offering compensation, it is a move that makes him look a little too much like Chavez or Castro for Canadian appetites.

Without doing that though, the mill workers are in limbo until it gets sorted out, and Abitibi may decide to just act out of spite.

It's a noble move, but his handling gives his political enemies a lot of ammunition.

Is there ehind the scenes politics...maybe, but you know what, I don't care if it means we have something for the places where these people work. I probably would have been a red tory if malroney hadn't sucked up to americans so much. but growing up through the 80's left a very bad taste in my mouth when it gets down to people who don't give a shit about this country. Or rather I am a natioalist at heart that believes a country shouldn't just throw out it's sovreignty to the highest bidder. I might actually have enjoyed capitalism if it had benefited canadians at all.

So you search for something else...hence the NDP. I can see how there use to be swing votes between dief/cons to douglas ccf/ndp. Over time you learn the system is rotten from the bottom up and that government should control the natural resources. I don't care what household items you want to buy, but you should have hydro, a phone, some TV, water etc Without the profit margin being built in. I guess that makes me a shitty socialist, but it certainly is very doable in capitalism and realistic enough to shift the centre line our way. If nothing else this depression may make people understand that profit margins shouldn't have a human cost, and community is more important than the selfish"homo consumera" that the economic textbooks tell you that you are.

______________________________________________________________________________________ "Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it." Noam Chomsky

Try some Tums or Rolaids.

Yeah, better to just capitulate. There's more certainty in that.

So it seems.

"It's a noble move, but his handling gives his political enemies a lot of ammunition. "

Unless they all move to Nfld and Lbdr before the next provincial election, Danny Williams doesn't have to worry too much, I think.

It's funny about fighting back.  There's a pervasive thought pattern that says, "if we fight back, they'll screw us...."  To which I always point out:

 "they're already screwing us."

Actually, it goes deeper than CoR in NB: remember Leonard Jones' anti-bilingual Independent victory in 1974, and that the Alliance came within inches of winning a seat in 2000--plus, at least a couple of NB's present federal delegation can be traced back to Reform/Alliance, if not CoR...

The only thing I remember about Danny Williams was him pooing his pants in Kindergarten.  But maybe that was a different Danny Williams?

 what the heck is this?   a canadian politican with a backbone?  a progressive conservative at that?  hate to admit it but i would vote for the guy in heartbeat given the choices now on the shelf.   

So would I.

I can't.  Already told every one in the family that I want "Never Voted Tory" on my tombstone.

I'll take populist politics if it gives the usual politics a kick in the ass.

Remeber, though, that Danny is sitting in a good short term economic position because of the revenue deal with Ottowa.  It's kinda easy to play tough guy man of the people when when you're sitting on an oil deposit.  Not all premiers have that advantage right now.

I wonder if Williams is influencing McGuinty?  Wasn't it yesterday that Dalton told the banks to stop asking for corporate tax cuts in a populist fashion?

Williams is the kind of "conservative" that would clean up in this part of SWOnt, federal or provincial.  I mean, the Cons and PCs already get strong support... but if Williams keeps this up then the regular Con voters will start asking some harder questions.  Yes, George V, even the Bageant rednecks.   

"I can't.  Already told every one in the family that I want "Never Voted Tory" on my tombstone. "

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I'd hold the old nose and support him, TP. He's not a neo-con.

Abitibi is making this move because its beholden to its shareholders to do right by them. The paper part is losing money. The energy producing part is making money.

So it's pee on the workers, get rid of that part. Keep the profit-making part.

Danny's just said, pee on you, Abitibi. But this observer doesn't think Newfoundland is gong to go into papermaking. It's not "Danny as our leader" time, really.

And Abitibi is running to the law  cause it's about NAFTA now. But will Steve defend Newfoundland's move in the courts, because it's now a Canadian problem? Will he pay the legal bills?  Will he still be alive by the time the courts decide?

Stay tuned.

I pay more attention to deeds than to party labels. Lots of people in my part of the Prairies consistently voted CCF and NDP - except during the Diefenbaker sweep. And Dief stood up to the U.S. (and was overthrown for doing so) in a way that few if any other Prime Ministers or provincial premiers have done - referring here to the Bomarc crisis.

Neither Dief nor Danny Williams were socialists or friends of labour. But the same goes for Blakeney and Romanow and Doer while in power. Acts of courage in defence of the people's interests at historical turning points stand out for me in ways that partisan labels never do.

Danny didn't get to be The Rock's richest fella by being the friend of humanity. The equation with Blakeney, Romanow and Doer is more than a bit of a stretch. I interviewed Daffy Dief. He still didn't understand what he'd done a decade after Arrow.

Exactly my point. He still isn't the friend of humanity. So how come the friends of humanity can't take bold stands at important times as he did?

Exactly my point. When did they take bold stands like this in the face of a threatened corporate closure or anything USian?

Do you? Killing the Arrow was one of his better moments. I simply can't believe the number of nostalgic Canadian pseudo-patriots who wanted Canada to be part of the Cold War jet fighter arms race.

"Do you? Killing the Arrow was one of his better moments. I simply can't believe the number of nostalgic Canadian pseudo-patriots who wanted Canada to be part of the Cold War jet fighter arms race. "

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Some of the fellas who left Canada to work at Boeing were employed at developing civilian aircraft. I like the Swedish example of how to retain some engineering capacity and the manufacturing jobs that go along with it. For aircraft and cars. Particularly now.

And I hate having to go hat in hand to Washington - for anything. (I know, just warped Canadian nationalism.)

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And again, Doer isn't Danny, dammit.

And reflecting on this:"Exactly my point. When did they take bold stands like this in the face of a threatened corporate closure or anything USian?"

....I have decided that Saskatchewan is now paying the penalty for NDP not being more pliable to USian pressures from within. 

While many applaud Deep Pockets Danny standing up to a corporation many here in the province still see it as a leverage for popular support. Give his team credit (Dion, Mcguinty, Layton, Doer all should heed) the PR has been successful, especially at this time of year...while people focus on consumption (all the mall are filled to capacity here on the Avalon) they now have a corporate bogey  man to rail against....nothing better in a province of cultural complaint....we still though have problems with other resources---our trees, rocks, water, people, land being sold off to the highest mainland bidder (remember over half the population now lives on the Avalon, who cares about the rest of the province), are all ignored now....what a great marketing campaign....baa hum bug...no just the same ol same ol......remember all MLAs have their guaranteed income, they do not work in a mill, logging camp, or as an underpaid nurse........

Which is it: a culture of whiners or a real problem of capitalism? Surely you can't fault the people for complaining about the very same problems you're complaining about... or have I misinterpreted your "province of cultural complaint" comment (afterall it is a typical rightwing slur against us Atlantic Canadians so I'm a little surprised to hear it from someone purporting to be a newfie leftist).

freddychef: 

"While many applaud Deep Pockets Danny standing up to a corporation many here in the province still see it as a leverage for popular support. Give his team credit (Dion, Mcguinty, Layton, Doer all should heed) the PR has been successful, especially at this time of year...while people focus on consumption (all the mall are filled to capacity here on the Avalon) they now have a corporate bogey  man to rail against....nothing better in a province of cultural complaint....we still though have problems with other resources---our trees, rocks, water, people, land being sold off to the highest mainland bidder (remember over half the population now lives on the Avalon, who cares about the rest of the province), are all ignored now....what a great marketing campaign....baa hum bug...no just the same ol same ol......remember all MLAs have their guaranteed income, they do not work in a mill, logging camp, or as an underpaid nurse........ "

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You have just taught me something about Newfoundland. The geographic/political  division. The overlooked hinterland.

Thanks for that insight and your take on political culture generally. 

More please.

D: 

"Which is it: a culture of whiners or a real problem of capitalism? Surely you can't fault the people for complaining about the very same problems you're complaining about... or have I misinterpreted your "province of cultural complaint" comment (afterall it is a typical rightwing slur against us Atlantic Canadians so I'm a little surprised to hear it from someone purporting to be a newfie leftist). "

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I don't see him "faulting" anyone. May be all wrong, but I think he's just telling it like it is. Certainly doesn't deserve silver bullets  from the lone class-conscious ranger looking for "typical rightwing slurs".

He came aboard today for chrissake! Read him again, slowly. He says Danny is being a populist, that he won't change much, but the Avalon folk will be satisfied with nothing being done elsewhere in the province. Again, I could be wrong. But if not, then I've just learned something.

How does he compare to Alexa's dad?

"How does he compare to Alexa's dad? "

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Tell me, please, about Alexa's dad...politics included.

Are you sure it is the Left that wants the Unions?

Are Unions not a Very Powerful Entity onto themselves, Right?

Rich, Powerful, Controlling,Influential, Dangerous(stories u no TV)

I find the Unions to be a thorn in a working man's side, but then I'm not a Union benefiting off a man's labors.

I like him even better for the story he tells of whats what and what isn't and I guess he isn't.  Its unfortunate because we could sure use someone who is for this wonderful country and her people.  Do you honestly believe Canada will have a NDP government at the helm in this new day and age?  I not saying the NDP is backwards but many don't find them forward in their thinking especially when it comes to the green dollar bill, especially Federally.  Its historically been a race between the two contenders the Conservatives and Liberals but the NDP have always proved to be the balancing act for them both and this country would be lost without them.  Danny Williams another day!  Apparently a leader who believes in their stuff and if s(he) comes from the Unions well then I was a bit harsh as they have been around for ever.  However I'm not sure they are a necessity in todays market place as they drive up the cost of doing business.  Not a good thing especially when you have so many on the payroll.  Sure the Union may get you $70 an hour but at what cost?  If a better job can be done for $30? 

Hey mybabble. Why don't you read what the Newfoundlanders have to say about Danny and quit embarrassing us all with your ignorance.

Roughly $70. Wanna borrow my calculator?

When push comes to shove, Danny is no friend of labour.  The 2004 NL public service strike was an example of how nasty and stubborn he can be.

Brian Peckford was a populist PC premier as well, but he became somewhat less popular as time went on, his ranting and raving against Ottawa didn't seem to have much of an impact on the lives of constituents beyond the entertainment value.  His credibility became suspect after he 'sprung' the idea of growing cukes just outside of St. John's during the dead of winter in gigantic greenhouses that required more energy costs to run than the cukes were worth on the market.

The difference between then and now is that royalties from hydrocarbon production started to have a recent impact on the Provincial treasury, which provides him with the leeway to fund the cult of Danny.  As for theatrics, he’s probably closer in style to the other Brian (Tobin) for his use of prop politics.

I think we all realize that, but can you name a premier in this country that is?  Right now, he is quite possibly the most left-wing premier in the country and he's a Tory.  Not that he's particularly left-wing or good, just two decades of neoliberalism and Blairite NDP premiers have really lowered the bar.

Well, for the workers the cost would be more like $-70

 Should Danny Williams lead the NDP

 NO.

No fucking milionaires should be allowed whithin fifty feet of what is supposed to be the people's party.  Of course, if they are dead, and have willed their money to the cause, that's a different story. 

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 Takes more than combat gear to make a man Takes more than license for a gun Confront your enemies, avoid them when you can A gentleman will walk but never run -Sting, an englishman in new york

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Shaw_(socialist) 

Thanks for jumping in George but I'd like still like to know what freddy meant by labling Nfld a "province of cultural complaint." You didn't address my question in your response to my post; I read freddy's post, it had some points I've heard from a few other newfies, and one point which I've never heard from any self respecting Atlantic Canadian, echoing our PM and suggesting we out east have a culture of defeat. I doubt I will hear back from freddy though as it looks like he only made the one post on babble.

When he talks about "province of cultural complaint" D, he's only saying that that is what the rest of Canada thinks of Newfoundland. A complainer.

Danny Williams said the same thing on CBC radio interview this morning. Then, he said, that that period is over, thanks to Newfoundland's new resources and resolve.

I hope freddychef reappears to confirm this. But it seems obvious to me.

For some reason, that link's not taking because the final bracket isn't registering, so either paste it or tell me how to fix it...

Try this:

http://tinyurl.com/8zxptg

By gosh, the apple didn't fall very far from that tree, did it?

Now I need to know some Danny Williams' background. Why he is brought forward in company with Alexa's dad, for comparison. Don't see it at first blush.

i.e.

"A self-made millionaire and high-profile St. John's lawyer before becoming Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Newfoundland, Danny Williams comes from a family with strong Conservative traditions. While still in law school, Danny Williams led a consortium to get Newfoundland's first cable television licence and built Cable Atlantic into one of the largest communications companies in Atlantic Canada."

I think Williams is a political conservative who is breaking ranks with the neoliberal right in Canada. Very interesting for sure, but would Danny simply pawn off the resources again at some later date? Or does he mean true nationalisation and actual worker and communal input on economic decisions and resource allocation/control as the CCF advocated in Ottawa of the 1950's?

Economic Crisis: Confronting Industry Shutdowns in Canada

Multinational’s Assets Seized in Newfoundland

I think it is time the NDP talked about nationalisation and all that good stuff Jack spoke about there being better uses for the Bank of Canada several years ago. Yes, it's time.

Hear hear!

Provincially the NSNDP have had resolutions for policies of nationalisation (such as to re-nationalise NS Power) come forward at convention (from local riding associations), only to have those resolutions quashed by the leadership in the name of "electability". Funny reasoning as the main provincial paper (and most local papers around the province) have been peppered with Letters to the Editor calling for nationalisation of this company for years now and I've never spoken to anyone who either supported the way the company has been run or opposed the idea of nationalisation. The people would clearly support it, its the Party that apparently doesn't.

Maye it's the "only nixon can go to china" crap. Good on danny, it might be political oportunism, but if it brings left ideas to the forefront I don't care. Look at how Martin brought in  far right economics to the nation from the reform platform. I think danny might have finally realized that being a branch plant country isn't desirable. Nothing is worse than being nothing but a resource pit with no say politicaly. Which is where we have been headed since 1984(the year not the book)

I agree

But I have to agree with It's Me D more.  I don't think it will actually happen that the NDP will come to support nationalization or re-nationalization, no matter how much public support there is for it.  I think support for oil nationalization was around 50%, maybe higher, but it's not in the NDP platform.

Oil is not like most commodities. It takes specialized equipment and people trained in oil drilling tecnniques etc especially if the oil and gas are deep-seated or offshore, or tied up in oil sands. The oil industry enjoyed important technology transfers from governments and academia for the know-how to do slant and horizontal drilling techniques in the 1960's. And so several governments around the world have various production agreements with transnational energy companies splitting the profits and production.

But there are different end results in different countries. For example, Russia signed some fairly lopsided oil contracts with transnational energy companies in the early 1990's when that country was at a disadvantage economically. They've since renegotiated those contracts with western energy companies and renationalising in other cases where the oil is shallower and more easily extracted. Norway deals with transnationals, too, and "energy nationalism" in that country has created one of the largest petroleum-pension investment funds in the world. Russia now follows Norway's energy plan and created a stabilization fund worth more than Canada's CPP  and Alberta's Heritage Funds combined. It's all in how contracts are written up and taxes levied, and energy companies in Canada have gotten away with daylight robbery for a long time.

The NDP understands this and has pointed to unnecessary and excessive tax cuts and rock-bottom per barrel royalties ever since the Liberals handed our gas industry to Americans in the 1950's and oil similarly by successive governments in Canada. We just need some shrewd socialists in Ottawa to cut all Canadians in for a fair share of the energy profits. And there is more energy than just oil and natural gas in Canada and being exported to the US in massive-massive amounts, too.

As far as Newfoundland's offshore oil is concerned, Newfoundland is in for only a small share since its not underneath Newfoundland, The oil is offshore and falls under federal control. And Williams' Newfoundland wont be dealt in for a larger share by either the transnationals or that other conservative government in Ottawa very soon.

And I suppose a trained monkey can operate a paper mill?  Or build a hydro dam?  Or operate and maintain a telephone system?  Or run an oil company such as SaskOil or PDVSA?

Okay, so you support corporate taxes and royalties as an alternative to nationalization.  Fair enough, but I personally believe, as another poster recently put it:

Given the maverick nature of Newfoundland politics, I wonder whether there's more of an inverse possibility, i.e. once Danny's time is up, the next Newfie premier'll be Jack Harris?

Chavez didnt kick Exxon-Mobil et al out of the country. They're still there and pumping oil but without controlling share interests as before.

Saskoil was pawned off to friends of Grant Devine's crooked conservative party in 1986.

You may or may not want to point us to countries where total nationalisation of oil is the rule and where no US energy companies are doing any drilling, like Saudi Arabia and Mexico.

I have pointed to socialist Norway as a good example of energy nationalism and where the oil profits are salted away in a national oil reserve/pension fund and constitutionally protected from raiding by the possibility of future spendthrift and crooked governments ie. Alberta with its piddling Heritage Fund cleaned out by Ralph Klein in order to pay down what were the highest per capita provincial debts in Canadian history.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Williams was just as harsh on Paul Martin when he was Prime Minister. Remember the Flag Flap?

It's a real question as to whether ANY Newfoundland premier would want to be prime minister.  Why would they take a job where the could never declare war on Ottawa, or blame it when they themselves screwed things up?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________ Our Demands Most Moderate are/ We Only Want The World! -James Connolly

Yes, because other provincial premiers never blame Ottawa for things that they themselves screw up. Only those rambunctious Newfies do that.

Where's the old eye-roll emoticon when you need it?

If Harper and crazy Jim had half a brain each, their heads would rattle.