Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound MPP Bill Murdoch says it's time Toronto separates from the rest of Ontario.

Sounds more like they should be expelled

[tosses a Nyah bomb at Maysie, then runs away]

Bigkitty, I believe you are onto something. I believe that being expelled from Ontario would be in the best interests of all citizens of Grey and Bruce counties.

We could set up toll booths at all the entry points into the county, and charge people coming from the GTA access to our rural areas.

I think its a great idea. Toronto has certain needs (i.e. public transit, social housing) which, while not unique, are qualitatively different than most of the rest of the province because of how big and densely populated Toronto is.  Provincial status would give Toronto the taxing power (income, sales) to pay for these things, or to negotiate directly with the federal government for appropriate transfer payments. Personally rather than just making Toronto a separate province I'd prefer if some more general quasi-provincial "city state" status could be created under the Constitution, which could then potentially be offered to the National Capital Region, Vancouver and/or Montreal if they want it, too.

EDITED TO ADD: The toll booths comment above appears to have been added in jest, but I actually think something like that would make a lot of sense, too, in order to ensure that commuters who work in Toronto but live in the suburbs still pay their fare share for city roads and services and the like.

Has anyone asked Hudak to comment on this or if he plans any disciplinary action against Murdoch?

Hmmm, weird I had thought they should be kicked out of Canada, as opposed to just Ontario..... :D ;)

Gotta give Toronto one thing, they don't elect many Cons. 

Too many Liberanos perhaps but hey, you lefties should look at bagkitty.  [nyah] 

I wonder how many people does it take to start your own country?

Maybe we should all start our own countries or city states.

Great idea Webgear.... until the inevitable nyah bomb race starts.

Personally I am holding out for a reestablishment of the divine right of bagkittys kings... and if that ever happens, expulsion will be the the least of Toronto's worries.

Bigkitty what is a nyah bomb?

I will recognize your Kingship if you grant me the title of Squire of Lindwood.  I am not greedy, I just want 50 hides of land, and to be a freeman.

I notice the ONDP stated that no one is allowed to leave Ontario (Toronto Star article). I guess freedom is only a word.

Well Webgear, you pretty much have to see it in action to understand. I suggest you go through this thread where Maysie launches the first one, and I cry foul. (it also helps to remember they are normally delivered in a sequence of six, to a school yard melody, with a long drawn out fifth "nyah": " nyah, nyah, nyah nyah, nyah.... nyah" -- I hope that makes things clearer for you)

Perhaps Murdoch is using a bit of tongue-in-cheekiness to pry some discussion out of the people's elected officials, and the departments that govern the province.  He should have possibly stuck with making fun of Toronto's wind turbine and suggesting legislation to pop the things up in any un-used urban spaces in the GTA.   

The coyote thing has me confused.  I thought that counties could set up their own regs as far as controlled hunts and bounties. 

Why would Hudak punish Murdoch.  Hudak should be asked for a comment, but if he dumps on Murdoch that sends a weird signal to the rural ridings that are currently PC and tend to favour anti-GTA sentiment.

I actually don't have much of a problem with this proposal.  I think there would probably be advantages for Torontonians AND non-Torontonians.

Rosie Dimanno weighs in.

Normally her columns are unmitigatingly offensive, but this one leaves me more bewildered than anything.

Toronto could be our own little San Marino.

I enjoy the GTA.  I don't want to live there, but it's a fun place, and occasionally I feel the urge to go to the big city and lose myself, the stereotypical story.  I like people, and I love food, and the GTA has plenty of both (plus a rather large population of women).

Really, the cities and the countryside of southern ontario need to work more closely together instead of setting artificial boundaries or igniting the same old rural-urban arguments.

It's clearly a demographic challenge as well as lifestyle.  The GTA is certainly more diverse ethnically than the countryside and will only continue to grow in that fashion, and that fuels all kinds of redneck racism.  I really hope Murdoch\Hudak and the PC party does not play on this aspect of the discussion for political gain.

Murdoch was at a meeting of the federation of agriculture and was playing to the home crowd.  Coyotes in Bruce and Grey have become a serious problem and Murdoch was just trying to juxtapose the reaction to them in rural Ontario and Toronto.  Where if you remember one proposed solution was to live trap them and then send them out into 'the country'  were they are killing livestock, wild turkeys, rabbits and pets.

Rosie Dimanno is a scum bag, a total fuckwad. I hope to never see her in Grey County.

"In fact, bet there aren't half as many guns in Bruce County as there are in Scarborough. Just saying."

Another useless reporter making shit up.

If this was about anyone other than rural people this column would be condemned as a piece of classist, or if similar things were said about people of colour racist trash.  It is truly offensive.

Rosie Dimanno and her ilk are why people hate Toronto. Everytime I read any of her articles I just get angry, this one more then ever.I mean look the title. "Hick MPP can have all rural ontario" last time I checked Toronto isn't the only city in province. Dimanno is a fucking tool. I am a utterly ashamed she speaks for this city.

Yeah, it totally was.  I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't offensive - I think I said that wrong.  What I meant is, usually I'm just offended by her article, but this time I was just confused because she was kind of rambling all over the place and didn't really make any coherent points in it, whether offensive or otherwise.  Sorry if it sounded like I was giving her a pass on it.

Don't forget, most of us Torontonians weren't born here, I don't think!  So we're not generally delighted either at the suggestion that our former non-Toronto selves were "hicks" or that friends and family we left behind in our smaller towns, cities, and rural areas are "hicks".

And some of us born in Toronto have migrated to the hinterlands.

hear hear webgear! I completely agree with you. Yuck! What a horrible person. But if you guys don't want her, what the hell are we to do with her? Perhaps we can ship her off to Alberta to sit somewhere with a nice laptop and no windows.

I am about the only person I know who was actually born in Toronto - West General Hospital to be exact. Lived in Scarborough growing up, moved downtown where I loved it, and am now back in Scarborough living in what people around here refer to as "the slum". For all my emotional attachment to Scarborough I would much prefer living back downtown again.

By the way I love Toronto and almost all Torontonians (DiMano now being a notable exception) and think Murdoch is quite wrong.  Toronto is a cultural and economic driver of this great province.  Without it we in rural Ontario would be much poorer and not just in monetary terms.

Hog Town is as Hog Town does.

I grew up in Northern Ontario and can attest to the fact that TO is hated just as much there as the CoU is in BC.  Interestingly I thought you had to get at least north of Parry Sound before the real hatred for Hog Town shows up.

Yeah, much south of that, and you've got all the Torontonians on vacation and transplanted Torontonian retirees. :D

How I wish other babblers would stop suggesting using Alberta as a dumping grounds for their waste (toxic and otherwise). Then again, from what I have read about Central Canada... "shipping it out" seems to be their solution for most waste management issues.

Coyote(s) attacked a man last night in Dundalk, Ontario (Southern Grey County). It was likely one captured from Toronto and the release in the Grey County.

Yeah, my friend from Dundalk had it on her facebook page.

http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2494060

"The man, not realizing the animal was wild, approached it and was bitten in the face. The animal left the property, entering the woods," a police new release said.

The Coyote "problem" certainly isn't a rural/urban issue.   A woman and her dog were attacked here last year, around Spettigue's pond-- my childhood backyard-- which is very much inside London.  

The problem is us.  There's a newish animal in the neighborhood, and we have to learn a few things.  The Coyotes already have thier shit together.  Here's one rule:   Don't lead with your face when approaching a dog, known or unknown.

I'm not sure how Torontonians are to blame for coyotes...where does that come from?

I can see how trapping them and then releasing them in a rural area could be considered dumping them somewhere.  But I don't really get what else you can do.  It's a bad thing to release wild animals back into the wild?  You can be sure that the coyotes weren't born in Toronto, so obviously we're not just creating coyotes to plague rural folks with.

What's the solution?  Kill them?

I saw a documentary awhile back that said that one of their survival strategies is that they breed at a far faster rate with more pups when they feel threatened in their environment.  If they are not being hunted and have enough food they stop breeding as often and have fewer pups.  Seems the best strategy is to learn to live with them and make sure there is better food for them than your cat or little dog. Eradicating them while not only morally reprehensible apparently doesn't ever work well and has potentially worse unforeseen outcomes..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzB0UL5qV18

I think the Dimanno piece was intended as tongue in cheek, and I think there were a few comments that were on the mark that way.  But a few displayed the kind of ignorance/arrogance we more often ascribe to some pundits on Faux News.

Dimanno isn't aware that Toronto already exports it's garbage to rural Ontario, and that decisions or non decisions of the GTA council do in fact impact rural areas.   For example: if windmills are such a good idea, how come there aren't any on the Scarberian Bluffs? or all along the lakeshore, for that matter?   

Murdoch and Dimanno are cut from the same cloth.

Actually they likely were born in Toronto like every other city in North America.  I remember talking to my neighbour about raccoons in the garbage and he was suggesting they be trapped and moved to the wilds and I thought that was hilarious since they and their ancestors had always lived in that part of Burnaby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzB0UL5qV18

ARG.

Maybe Torontonians should get to know their city.  There's at least three river valleys, the Humber, the Don and I think the Rouge?  And what's the one that goes through Oakville?  Credit?   Anyway.  These wild coyotes are living, appropriately enough IN A WILD AREA IN SIDE TORONTO.  

And yes I know I'm yelling.

So, I suggest people living next to those areas have pets that either stay in coyote free zones, or can handle themselves if they run into a coyote.    There's a reason some people refer to little dogs as "musky bait"  you know.

Urban coyotes moved to rural areas are much more dangerous than rural born and rasied ones.  Urban coyotes get a taste for 'human' food in a way they don't in rural areas.  Add that to the familarity they get to humans, being more used to their smells and noises and you end up with a very bold, very dangerous animal.  Coyote attacks on wildlife, livestock and pets are way, way up.  When I was younger you hardly heard of such a thing, now every year you hear of a great many attacks.

So yes the answer is to shoot them, if urban areas want to get rid of them, not dump the problem on rural areas.  If urban areas want to deal with their problem wildlife in some other way, go ahead, but please stop sending them out here.  And yes those coyotes will have been born and raised for generations in Toronto, probably there a probably a number of coyotes not far from where you live, no matter what part of the city that might be.  More so along some of the 'greenbelts'

Coyotes were rare twenty years ago in my area - Haldimand-Norfolk.  Several of the oldest hunters I know - with around 60 years experience hunting in this land - have all kinds of stories of the ebb and flow of wildlife.  Coyotes in big numbers are new to them. 

They're being hunted right now.  The issue Murdoch is referencing, as far as I can tell, is whether or not to hunt more and whether to incentivize the kill but he's mixed that up with a bunch of good ole boy commentary.

I haven't seen anyone calling for a full death sentence cast on coyotes.  Got any links Kropotkin?

Toronto should deal with its own coyote population.  And with no predators and lots of food, I really doubt they'll do anything but grow in numbers.  I think the "catch and dump" is simply an idea and is not being put into practice.

That's for the GTA to deal with.  Murdoch is, I think, suggesting that GBO should be able to decide its own control measures.  Like hunting, trapping.  That's probably the best solution, because farmers could go over the top left to deal with coyote problems on an individual basis.

I like Kropotkin and TP's thinking: Toronto is wild.  Places like Milton back right into the protected areas of Halton. 

There was an great interview about coyotes on CBC radio in the winter.  The show, the Current I think, spoke with a coyote expert who says bigger coyotes are moving into our area.  The smaller, traditional coyote for southern ontario was small, like a big cat, 25 pounds.  A much larger animal is moving into the area and will eventually there will be bigger coyotes, with a bred in ontario demeanor. 

No question the reintroduction of the wild turkey, and the subsequent population explosion, has helped the coyotes own population expand. 

Well, not only that but they have likely been pullling down young, old, sick and injured deer, or scavenging them.    And, we've increased wetlands either by accident (beavers making a comeback because there's little market for pelts) or design, creating lots of living space for ducks and geese and other marsh birds.   I mean, we created the menu for coyotes and more predators.   And, personally, I like it. 

The very same area where the Dundalk man offered his face to the Coyote to bite-- or wild dog, no one is sure which-- had a young black bear wander through... two springs ago.   And yes, there's photographic evidence, and I saw the tracks for myself.

The wild turkey introduction is remarkable.  I can't find the site anymore, but the actual introduction was quite small, and even the ministry was astounded as to how quickly they spread.  Heck, I've had a wild turkey in my yard here in London.  So, the coyotes will move in, their population will explode for a while, untill the turkeys and deer populations get smaller and a bit smarter and there will be a new equilllibrium, and by then we'll know enough to lot leave our pink and mauve poodles out in the back yard unattended.

No coyotes here that I know of, but we have foxs and black bears. They tend to mind their own business.

Nature has its own ways of dealing with excessive populations of predadator and prey.  But the balance in SWOnt is skewed by too many factors to count.  This is new age biology.

I'm happy to see coyotes in the land.  I like an active landscape.  I'd probably like coyotes less if they were costing me money.  Raccoons in my sweet corn are bad enough, but losing livestock seems more intrusive.

Reintroducing the turkeys was a good idea and its taken off.  Turkey hunting has also been a big boost to local economies.  I live a few kms from where the birds were released.  It's been an impressive reintroduction thanks to provincial groups like the Long Point Conservation Authority and other groups.

We had a vote today. The hamlet of Lindenwood is separating from Ontario and Canada.

We are now an independent nation. We are now accepting alliances and trade agreements with all interested parties.

Fuck Toronto.

I wondered when I logged onto babble whether there would be a thread on Bills's comments and sure enough

Bill, who I've known for years and years, is a populist, he knows what buttons to push and is unafraid to push them.  I expect he was only half serious, and is laughing himself silly this has gotten so big.  I think what people forget is that there are small town people who are as clueless as their big city cousins in terms of the concerns and realities of farming (whom Bill was actually speaking too) just as there are big city folks who know a great deal about the problems facing farmers and how dysfuncitonal our food system too.  Ignorance and knowledge does not depend on geography.

Bill does make a point when he says that there is a "Toronto mentality" to many of the decisions this provincial government in particular makes.  Cookie cutter solutions imposed without considering local needs happens all the time, including perversely in areas like agriculture.  It creates a legacy of resentments that have nothing to do with Toronto per se but where power is located.  If, say Toronto were to get hived off, then people like Bill and those he represents would eventually start complaining about the Peterborough, London, or Kingston mentality depending upon where the 'capital' and largest urban centres ended up being.  It would be inevitable.

Dimano and Bill come from the same place of ignorance.  The simple truth is we need each other.  But for most of us, regardless of where we live it is going to be a bit of a love/hate relationship because we need different things and have to compete for attention.  Sometimes it will be rocky, and other times it will be great, but we need each other.  Rural Ontarians need the tax base created by Toronto, while Toronto is only as successful as it is because of all the things the hinterlands brings to it.  And that is just on economics.  I have often thought what we need is an exchange program for people of all ages to get to understand the different cultures both areas.

On coyotes- we have had several coyote attacks here on our farm.  We have had young calves killed within sight of the house.  Last summer coyotees broke into our chicken house and killed dozens and dozens of chickens.  Most were killed for sport as they were not eaten, just killed.  I am pretty down with all of God's creatures on this earth and will let bygones be bygones, but coyotees (and raccoons) are just evil incarnate.  Any population control is good population control for someone who has seen the damage these hateful things cause.  When I was a kid I remember once seeing a coyote.  It was a big deal.  Now I see them regularly and they are big &*ckers.  They have no fear of people, standing within feet of my tractor at times.  Last spring they destroyed an entire colony of turkeys on one of our rented farm.  They must have killed 20 turkeys and just mostly left them there.  Evil, evil, evil thrill killers.

OH. DEAR. GOD.

giggle

I am serious, what has Toronto done for me lately? Every summer I need spend a few days picking garbage of my land because some lazy fucker from the city is too lazy to head to the dump. He decides that my land is just as good for dumping his waste.

Well I have to do that too, but the garbage is year round and sure doesn't come from Toronto.

Toronto:

• Arts and culture
• FREE events all over the city
• Political actions out the wazoo
• The yummiest restaurants from many amazing cuisines, and not too pricey if you know where to go
• Personalized walking tours provided by cool, groovy Torontonians, if you're nice
• Toronto Island
• People-watching on College Street and Queen Street
• Groovy festivals during the spring and summer and fall (Jazz, Hot Docs, Pride, Word on the Street just to name a few. I think the coyotes have submitted something to the Fringe this year.)
• and.....Me!

Who can argue the fabulousness of that?

Nyah to bagkitty. Just because.

When I was a kid I remember once seeing a coyote.  It was a big deal.  Now I see them regularly and they are big &*ckers.  They have no fear of people, standing within feet of my tractor at times.  Last spring they destroyed an entire colony of turkeys on one of our rented farm.  They must have killed 20 turkeys and just mostly left them there.  Evil, evil, evil thrill killers.

Yes, there's been a lot of changes regarding wildlife since I was a kid, too.   I'd be interested to see a DNA study done on these big Coyotes, just to see what we're really dealing with here.  Sounds to me like they've been mixing with domestic dogs.   

Another factor i  all this is how rampant rabies was in Ontario before all this.   Rabies that effected far ranging animals more than somewhat stationary species.

I have had full bags of garbage from both Toronto and Brampton thrown onto my land.

Yes, there are rural people that do that same however it is not on the same scale as the city folks.

When we were on a cottage road we used to get everything from the weekend garbage bag, to propane tanks- sometimes with the bbq, cats and all kinds of 'stuff' so I know what you mean. 

Maysie

Counter to popular beliefs, there is art and culture in the rural areas of the province. Too bad there is only one of you, you should move to the hicks.

I am near a cottage road, it is very dangerous to walk on between May 1st to September 31st.

This is why I receive all the extra garbage, people decide to take my road, drop their waste off and then head on to the city.

The solution is to put a wall up around the greater Toronto area to keep the evil conservative coyotes out.

Would someone please think of the Liberal and Socialist lapdogs being eaten by the horrible wildlife?

Okay, I've heard you loud and clear, folks.  I'm officially an idiot for saying coyotes likely aren't born in Toronto.  I realized it as soon as I read kropotkin's post, that of course coyotes could be born here.  I guess because I think of them as pack animals and I don't normally see packs of dogs running around that maybe the kind of migrate into the city or whatever.

I don't know what I was thinking.  :D  What can I say.  I'm just some ignorant kid from small town Ontario.  We didn't have coyotes where I grew up!

adma - I just laughed for about 30 seconds straight at that picture. :D

It sure helped me wile away the time...

Toronto bashing is always a popular sport and it serves a useful purpose for opportunistic politicians from all parties. It does get tiresome though to hear this regional claptrap used to splinter the working people based on some phony geographical divide. There are profound racist, anti-poor and anti-working class undertones to many of the anti-Toronto comments but why let people's human rights get in the way of a good joke or two. Ask the people in Thunder Bay just how horrible Toronto is for insisting on made in Canada streetcars which have created lots of jobs there instead of in Germany. 

Under the first past the post voting system, Toronto votes are worth less than those in less populated areas but that doesn't stop the whiners from suggesting that Torontonians calls all the shots and hold all the power.  And at the end of the day, which hockey team do most Ontarians identify with?  (Yes I realize that Hamilton won't get a franchise until Toronto gets one first). 

Montreal?  that is who all my friends in  the North cheered for.  The Maple Laughs who would cheer for such pathetic losers.  That was before one saw tax evasion of its owners and some pedophile employees using the Gardens as bait.  It just occurred to me actually that the Leafs organization does represent Toronto properly. 

I know the Sens have got lots of fans in Eastern Ontario and Winnipeg used to have fans in the north when they had a team, but Montreal? 

My family is from NB although I grew up in N. Ont, most Maritimers cheer for Montreal.  In Northern Ontario in the 50's and 60's the mines had many Maritimers and Quebecois who came for the work.  Not many Leafs fans amongst them.

I'd like to have this cleared up, Polunatic:

"There are profound racist, anti-poor and anti-working class undertones to many of the anti-Toronto comments but why let people's human rights get in the way of a good joke or two."

kropotkin1951 wrote:

That was before one saw tax evasion of its owners and some pedophile employees using the Gardens as bait.  It just occurred to me actually that the Leafs organization does represent Toronto properly. 

Wow, that's a spectacularly shitty thing to say.  So, Torontonians evade taxes and are pedophiles, are we?

I agree with Polunatic.  I've often heard racist code (and not so "code") from small town folks (and yes, I've lived in small towns much longer than I've lived in a big city) when it comes to Toronto, particularly certain areas of Toronto.  (Of course, I hear racist crap here in Toronto too, so it's not like I'm saying that small-towners have a lock on racism or anything.)  I heard that sort of thing way more often in my travels in small towns/cities/rural areas than I've heard derision of rural and small city areas from Torontonians (although of course I've heard that too while living here).

For the most part, Torontonians I've been in contact with are FROM smaller centres, like to visit them, and some long to go back to them permanently.

Why would the rural poor bash the urban poor? What rural person is anti-worker? 

For one, the notion that the when the province bails out Toronto, the rest of the province is somehow paying to give Toronto some privileged position that we "don't deserve" - i.e. that we're whiners always looking for the rest of Ontario for help. The reality is that many of the rural and small town low income (or no income) folks come to Toronto for work because their communities have been ravaged by free trade, unsustainable exploitation of natural resources and other capitalist exploitation. Some folks end up on social assistance. Some end up living on the streets. Torontonians pick up the tab but we can't afford it because of the Harris government's downloading of social services and cuts to welfare rates (partially continued by McGuinty). 

Michelle I didn't know you were or had ever been the owner of the Leafs.  I also think you didn't work there let alone engage in behaviour like that.  

I merely pointed out a couple of the more egregious reasons for not supporting the Leafs.  If you read again I did not say anything about people who live in TO.   Ballard was one of early corporate villains and like Black I cheered when they sent him to jail.  His line was it is my money not the governments so I won't pay.

My apologies to anyone else who thought I was visiting the sins of the Leafs on all people from Toronto.

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/history/a/harold_ballard.htm

http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM00111... [67]

And the flip side of that is that people who are on the margins gravitate out to rural areas and small towns because rents are cheaper and there may be more availability for seasonal employment.

There is a symbiosis that goes back and forth on almost every issue you can name.  That's why people like Murdoch and Dimanno are just two sides of the same coin of ignorance and mistrust.

And could we please, pretty please, put this small town and rural people are more racist and homophobic myth to rest.   The simple reality is that jackasses live everywhere and in similar proportions.  In a larger urban centre though they can enclave (and thus hide better) in a way you can't in rural areas and small towns.

Webgear, unfortunately I have encountered many rural people who are not only anti-worker, they are anti-union. "Why should these union people be paid more than me?" Same applies to the rural anti-worker types. They live all over the place.  People are people. Personally I blame it on the Toronto Sun.

That is not a mentality confined to rural areas sadly.

Stargazer, thanks. Can we agree that anti-rural and anti-urban types are equal across the province?

It is not just Ontario and TO. The Lower Mainland sucks the resources out of the regions and gives nothing back except school and hospital closures. THe decisions are made on Howe Street out here and it those decisions that shut mills that get rural people angry.  Especially when they saw in the 1990's there companies being bought up by multi-nationals who sold off the assets and stole the cash reserves and then left town.  Yeh they get resentful and blame the city folk because that is where the corporate masters live. Building a highway for the elite of Vancouver to speed to their condos in Whistler is not a big hit in places that have lost their main industry due to shell games.

Agreed. I was not trying to imply that there was some special enlightenment of Toronto or any other large urban centre (even if we have rid ourselves of Harpercon MPs  ). People are people. There are decent ones in every community. 

even if we have rid ourselves of Harpercon MPs  

Oh sure play the envy card!

BA... of course small towns can often be referred to as enclaves themselves... just sayin'

Absolutely webgear. They are all over the place. It's sad actually. I have many friends who would be considered "rednecks" and a large chunk of them vote Conservative and don't seem to realize that a vote for Cons is a vote against the working poor. It's not confined to any region - rural or urban. It just is.

Timmins, Ontario - they have Charlie Angus, one of the hardest working members of the NDP and my personal idol.

The Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound MPP, who made headlines this week for suggesting Toronto become a province on its own, said in a news release Thursday that "the attitudes" of people such as Toronto Star columnist Rosie DiManno and Warren Kinsella, a "Toronto-based Liberal advisor and strategist to Premier Dalton McGuinty," explains it for him.

......... [79]

DiManno's column read, in part that "Bill Murdoch, who represents Bruce-Grey-Owen-Sound, which I think is somewhere due north, made his comments this week at a meeting of the Bruce Country Federation of Agriculture, which sounds vaguely gay-Commie to me." [79]

For my money, DiManno's column tried to strike a tone that really, really didn't come off. It added nothing to the conversation while giving publicity-hound Bill Murdoch more column inches. Bad move.

Oh my....

Perhaps we can organize a "cultural exchange" program, Bookish, now that the weather is a bit nicer.

How about... you walk my 'hood with me... and I'll walk yours with you? 

........

On a more serious note, which that damned Polunatic brought up (  ), which I didn't want to mention, first because I preferred the silly route, and second because most babblers here (who hate Toronto) don't hate Toronto for the reasons that Polunatic listed. But it's a good reminder, that such friendly bantering and nyah-ing can quickly go south, and I don't mean southern Ontario.

There are reasons why the majority of new immigrants, as well as the majority of Canada's populations of colour, choose to live in urban centers, and not just Toronto. Urban-bashing can take on racist and classist bullshit, none of which I read in this thread. 

And certainly to imply that there's "more" racism in smaller communities because of classist crap, is completely wrong.

There sure as hell is racism in Toronto and other cities in Canada. And for folks of colour there are job networks, school programs, informal support systems and all sorts of things that one can have access to when the population is of a significant enough size, some initiators get funding, and have it justified to funders on the basis of statistics. Of course some people don't want that and don't associate with members of their country of origin in any capacity. Immigrants and POC are not monoliths.

But the kind of urban-rural mobility is generally less of a choice for folks of colour for those reasons. 

This is, of course, changing, and the next few decades, if we live that long, should be interesting to watch.

And having Rosie DiManno represent how Torontonians feel about, well, anything, makes me want to freak the fuck out. It's not a coincidence, of course, that the right wingers such as RM, whether rural, urban or sub-urban, always manage to have the most access to air time. Grrrrrr.

Remember the last parliamentary Liberal to represent Murdoch's turf...

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/Files/Parliamentarian.aspx?Item=fcf6b6cd...

I don't recall Ovid running at the provincial level.

I don't recall Ovid running at the provincial level.

Nope, from the early 60s until 1987 Liberal MPP Eddie Sargeant was the MPP for the old riding of Grey-Bruce.

And then it was Ron Lipsett from 87-90 when Bill Murdoch won the riding on his second try as a Conservative, after having lost the Liberal nomination fight to Lipsett in 87.

Interestingly Sargeant was as much a maverick in his day as Murdoch.  It is something in the water I think.

Less interestingly 90 was the first campaign I played a large role in having canvassed most of the Brooke area of Owen Sound and significant portions of the rest of the west side and being the candidate driver. 

The rest is, as they say, history. 

Who did you campaign for?

No way!!!I live on the Niagara Peninsula...

Argo's Suck!!!!!

Note: I deliberately, strategically said "parliamentary" without specifying federal or provincial.  So, my point holds.

Adam, what was wrong with Ovid?

Grrrrrr.

Coyote! shoot it, Shoot it now!

what point was that adma?

Really I want to hear what point you think you were making....

The only point I was making (esp. given Maysie's post I was following up on) was re the arguments about racism--and that, paradoxically, the last non-Tory to represent Bill Murdoch's turf in any legislature, federal or provincial, was black: the Guyanese-emigre former mayor of Owen Sound.  So, it's not fair to unilaterally portray Murdoch's Ontario as a hotbed of KKK types--the divide's more cultural than racial...

Oh, and I suspect race was at most a marginal-to-inconsequential factor behind his 2004 defeat;  in a seat like this in the election where Paul Martin lost his majority, the result would have been no different had Ovid been Caucasian--maybe not being a "Blue Grit" a la Paul Steckle was a stronger strike against him.  (Then again, Shane Jolley's 2006 federal run was against Ovid's wife, and his provincial Grit opponent in 2007 was also black.  But there, too, I'd urge caution in reading too much into any of that.)

Okay thanks,

I grew up in small town Ontario and I'd have to say that my town seemed pretty xenophobic.

I can remember once in my late teens my friends and i drove to Toronto to see a Maple Leafs game.  This was a pretty rare occurence to drive to the city (we lived 2 hours away).  We parked at Kipling station and took the subway in.

I suggested to my friends that we get off the subway a few stops early so we could walk in Toronto a bit before the game started.  One of my friends gave me a strange look and said, "Are you KIDDING?  Do you  KNOW how many DRIVE BY SHOOTINGS there are there?"

This was mid 90s.  I'm sure that things have changed somewhat, and that many more people in rural areas are going to the cities much more often.

My friend certainly wasn't any kind of KKK type or anything.  But, there was this attitude of the city as a very dangerous place, and i'd say there were racial undertones informing that attitude.  So, he wouldn't have seen any issue with a black politician, but somehow he had this idea that walking a dozen blocks in downtown Toronto would be asking for gang violence.

He lives in Toronto now and probably quite likes it (don't really keep in touch).

I don't want to try to make an argument out of an anecdote.  Just saying that, growing up in rural southwestern Ontario, I feel like diversity was less appreciated.  I observed xenophobia and amonst some an irrational fear of the city (Toronto).

I vote we keep Toronto and kick Bill Murdoch out of Ontario. Now let's go dancing ...

Which one was captured and released...the coyote, or the man?

The man was likely from Toronto, coyotes like the smell of corruption, greed and immoral activity, hence why the man was attack.

Dundalk is a pretty town.

And that was back when Etobicoke was a city! Gotta represent. But seriously, those very same attitudes that you just spoke of. The whole we can't walk around downtown Toronto we'll get robbed/shot at etc are also perpetuated by some who reside in the old municipalities that comprise the current city of Toronto (excluding myself and others in said municipalities who actually spend time in the downtown core) I know I'm a Torontoian not by choice thanks Mikey Harris! But I have property in the riding next door to old Braveheart Murdoch (I've been in the Ontario Leg and walked by his office around the time he was turfed from caucus for calling for J. Tories head, and he's got a Braveheart cutout in his office.) in Simcoe Grey.I've got family in Scotland Ontario and Brantford region. My girlfriend is from and I've been around Sault Ste Marie ways. I love this province its frigging awesome. If some people are judging someplace they've never been (That's what people in Russia do) than fuck it. I'm hated and proud, (GG ALLIN) Toronto is where I live it ain't perfect but I'll take it warts and all (i'm looking at you Rosie, BS municipal governance etc)

That's what people in Russia do? :D

Darn Russians!  Don't let anyone tell you the Cold War is over.  We know better!

Good point.

Lisa: Dad, you can't judge a place you've never been to. Bart: Yeah, that's what people in Russia do.

Yes, Dundalk is a pretty town.

Good ol' long-in-the-tooth, 'nobody's fool' Bill Murdoch.  OMG, Bill, you're still around!  That's probably because my beloved Owen Sounders, albeit they know where they're from geographically, don't take no sh-t from nobody.  We loved you when I was there in the previous century, and they still do.

Only thing is, Bill, Toronto (center of the universe!) is the economic engine of Ontario, and like it or not, your area's best customer.  It's just not nice to say Toronto is hogging the whole food bin (even though it's true, but that's only because we're stealing money from you folks and anybody else who has cash coming to them from the province or the feds by way of transfer payments, because we don't know how to create and live by a workable budget) when it begs Messrs. Harper and McGuinty for more moolah to pay for its toys.

Yes, like it or not, you are amongst the vast and subsequently wealthy selling component of the province, and Toronto is the rich and greedy buyer.  You are, in a sense, the food (and technology) basket of Toronto (Hamilton, London, Windsor, Kitchener, Ottawa, Niagara and the golden horseshoe --all, by the way, of whom we steal from.  We're an equal opportunity thief because we let you provincial MPs...including you, Bill, decide how much we can steal.)

You need us so you don't have to be us.  Sure, the shoe always looks better on the other foot, to coin a metaphor, Bill, but it ain't always necessarily so.  We have problems you don't even want to begin to want.

The balance works, Bill.  To make us into a separate province would mean in the long run, you would end up being a have-not society, and even less equal with the center of the universe than you are now.  What good would that do anybody?

And anyway, we love you.  We vacation in your neck of the woods (come to think of it, we also hunt and fish there.)  We buy your produce.  We buy your technology and manufactured goods.  We buy your craft work.  We even by your old stuff and call it antiques so we can sell it to each other for a price that puts more than a smile on our lips...it puts an entire belly laugh on our bellies.  We ski down your hills and proclaim your butter tarts from afar.  When spring comes, we crowd your maple farms to gawk at the trees.  In summer we buy your beaches and swim in them. Throughout the rest of the year we build and attend your terrific colleges and universities.

Whether we're on your front lawn or our own, we buy, buy, buy!  As for those stolen transfer dollars...sure it hurts a little. but in the long-term balance of things, you get much of it back.  And don't worry about the future too much if I become Toronto's next mayor, Bill.  I'll try very hard to get the spending under control so as you folks can keep your justly earned cash for your own projects.  And we'll still love you as our "North country".

Dang!  i just wish I was there to vote for you again.  But more than that, I just wish I could spend more time there again so anytime I wanted to go fishing I could just walk out the front door, down the street a bit, and throw my line into some pristine water where the fish are edible.  (We don't have anything like that here in Toronto.)  And maybe around lunch time pop into a Chinese buffet on 2nd before going back to fish the afternoon away.  (We have TONS of those here!)

I think you'll probably be around until you just turn into dust and just blow away.  God bless you, Bill!  You're what makes our provincial MPs trustworthy.

Mark State

2010 Toronto Mayoralty Candidate (Hello to all my old buddies from Grey Bruce and area!  Markdale to Toby and everywhere in between.)

I might have to watch classic Leafs to see Glen Hall, Johnny Bower or Terry Sawchuck to see a better save than that, Webgear.   :)

I've been to Dundalk many times, having friends in the vicinity.   In fact, they are on the next road east of road 9, where the attack took place, on the other side of the Grand River which generally separates the farms that front onto either road.    Nice land.

But, I wouldn't call Dundalk a pretty town, but then it isn't ugly either.  I'd say it's typical.   For me, a pretty town is Nuedstadt or Fordwich, maybe Hanover, certainly Mount Forest, and inarguably Grand Valley.    I've only passed through the Beaver Valley area once, but there's some post card villages and towns through there.  

Hey, the town of Linwood, on the Manser road is on street view.

dp

Tommy you lost me on this statement.

Priceville, Massie and Walterfalls is very nice also.

Sorry, typo.  Not "on"  "of".

What is street view?

I think we are thinking about different hamlets. Lindenwood is only an empty fields now.

Oh, you'll love street view, webgear.   Go to google, click on maps, and zoom in somewhere.   You'll get increasingly closer satelite pictures of the earth, until you get down, usually, to where you can see dog houses in people's back yards.   In some places it zooms into "street view" and it's a view of a street as if you were walking down it.  

I took a street view tour of Pompeii a few weeks ago.  It's really cool. 

That is, after I took a look at the land around Ortona, one of the places my father was invited by the Germans to visit in the 1940's.  Bad hosts, by his account.

Ok Tommy, I know the Google map feature. I just never knew it was called street view.

Thanks.

I use this feature a lot for family research. It is too bad, most of the areas I want to look have outdate imagery.

I am quite surprised at the imagery level for Afghanistan and Bosnia. You think the Germans are bad hosts, get invited by the Croatians for year long visit.

Long thread, closing.