Feminist viewpoints on prostitution and sex work

From the last thread:

No....this is incorrect....

Men have destabilized the safety of prostitutes and sex workers,

environments do not destabilzation anything in respect to women's safety while in the company of men.

That women are unsafe is soley the responsibility of men who are making them unsafe

...your evidence at the WCB site  has never indicated anything....

Polly,

...respect you dearly, though your anecdotal story is certainly feel good  at first glance,  it has no meaning  when considering decrim of johns pimps et al.

This is  actually a 2 person story, and you do not know what the starting  reason was and end result was for the young women, who sold her vagina, to boost this young man's ego,

....maybe she committted suicide the next day, or a month later,  or drugged herself into oblivion, as she could not handle what she had to do to make money....

Sorry, but the benefits men get out of it do not factor into my considerations.....

excuse me? being listed and included doesn't prove anything? all we have to do is pay in....just like any one else...what more do you need......we have an industry code and are accepted by WCB if we hoose to pay in...we spoke to them during the development of trade secrets-occupational health and safety development and they assured us we are workers and we qualify.

and actually,it was women's rights activists who have for the most part destabilized our safety...or do you deny the syphillus awareness and movements against "vice" were not lead by many women.....?remember the hilter and sex worker and the emporer of japan poster? or the she looks clean but ...?poster.....or the women who lead the fight for the legal frame work we live with now? or the women who decided that the DTES hotel owners were exploiting us by allowing us to rent rooms by the hour....?

you really like to go in circles...you ask for proof i provide proof, my proof is meaningless...my voice is not as importnt as a trafficking survivor.....?

the difference between my work and the work of a paid assassin is that my work IS recognized as work in many countries in the world. are you not trying to decrim sex workers in the swedish model? are you not then by default making us as workers legitimate? that is what is propsed right....? decriming workers only under the swedish model.....? it still makes us workers and acknowledges us as such.....?

the human rights charter does defend our position because of sex work being recognized as work in so many places, whether they have decrim or not- as paid assassin is not......

i am a human, i qualify for rights, i am a feminist.

maybe she commited suicide or drugged herself into oblivion.....? are you sure she is dead....? it was a good story until you started making assumptions about her demise......

http://www.worksafebc.com/publications/newsletters/assets/pdf_bod/20031021_01.pdf

 we are listed  in this document as EA 761021 Massage Parlour,Steam Bath,Escort Srv 2003 base rate-0.84 2004 base rate-0.89percent change 6.0% agencies/firms taking part 22

Polly,

...respect you dearly, though your anecdotal story is certainly feel good  at first glance,  it has no meaning  when considering decrim of johns pimps et al.

Please don't talk down to me.  I hate that.  As a matter of fact, I do know where she is now.   I never said young woman by the way, I don't think she was all that young.  She is still working and as far as I know the young man in my story still talks to her.  He was as of last year, he considered her a friend and they both posted in a number of online places.  Maybe here too, who knows.

I told that story in response to a very specific question, one which asks what kind of person could not find a sexual encounter without paying for it.  I know intimately one such person, and I told his story.  His story is why I have been staying out of this thread.   The fact that someone I know - and yes he is male but I love him anyway - was helped by susans version of a sex worker makes me biased. 

Thats all

I actually hope you continue to post your POV.  Your bias shapes your contributions, which humanizes both sides in your story, even though you yourself have no direct experience with, as it has been so eloquently described, genital commodification contact.  To me, when susan talks about single fathers, etc, I come at it from the POV that my brother was a single custodial father with a son who had a mother who was completely disinterested in my nephew.   I have another nephew almost in the same situation, with an ex who thought it was ok to have her 11 year old son take care of the 3 younger ones.   So no one is going to tell me that single custodial fathers are not worthy, nor can they convince me that all mothers are madonnas.

My personal opinion is that the feminist movement, per se, lost a lot of supporters when the loudest members sounded like they all   not only hate men, but blame them for everything that is wrong with the world and the people in it, including her own life's miseries.  Does anyone else remember the story about someone who asked a bunch of teenage girls if they were feminists?   And they overwhelmingly said "no".  Because being a feminist meant you had to hate men (and possibly pink dresses and makeup, I don't remember lol), and they could not and would not wrap their heads around that.  They did, however answer yes to a great many questions about equality and choice, all the things that most women consider important.

And I am also old enough to remember when "women's libbers" looked with scorn upon stay at home moms, don't you?   Because they didn't go out to work, what they did at home was meaningless and could not be considered "work".    Remember how they were all wrong about that too?

Actually, no, "women's libbers" fought for the right to have careers at all.  It wasn't entirely about looking with scorn on housewives.  More along the lines of being frustrated with women who chose to live in precarious positions where men held all the power.

Hm.  Maybe that's an unintentional parallel after all...

I agree with you Fortunate, for myself that was some twenty years ago and yes there was lots of contempt for women who chose to stay home.  I wasn't one of them, I was off conquering a man's world.  lol

Polly B.  thanks for sharing your story.

Susan, I read you history with interest and it is obvious that every effort to clamp down on has resulted in greater risk and death to sex workers.  And thanks for the thanks.

I'm going to change this thread title to what the thread is actually about - Feminist viewpoints on prostitution/sex work.

from the history of sex work book; written by me;

http://www.sfu.ca/cstudies/community/History_SexWork_final.pdf

The women's suffrage movement began with a group of white, wealthy, and educated women who believed in a woman's right to vote-not every woman-just white, wealthy, and educated women. They felt they were the only women with the capacity to make complex decisions. The rest of us would surely be grateful to benefi t from their obvious wisdom.

These women went as far as to create an ad campaign depicting sex workers as evil and as the vectors of disease. Their campaign of speeches, posters, and radio spots was so broad and far-reaching that this stigma exists to this day. During this time sex workers were put into asylums following the logic that mental illness was the cause of their immoral behaviour. This attack on sex workers, in particular, female sex workers, by other women resulted in great pain and, in some cases, death for the workers affected.

These early feminists believed they knew what was best for everyone, and sex workers paid for their arrogance with their lives. These divides remain in feminism today with abolitionist or "end sex work" groups who are trying to block sex-worker-driven initiatives and sex worker community development.

Polly, my sincere l apologies if you felt I was talking down to you, I did not mean to,  and was being completely sincere,

...am glad you filled out the rest of the story, with her presence. It helped, but really, it still has no bearing on making a decision to decriminalize  john's, pimps and procurers.

However, now that you have stated your bias, I will state part, of the reason why I have mine, and why I see prostitution as violence by purchaser against the person selling themselves...

My partner's best friend  committed suicide years ago now, and it has left a lasting impact upon us, as has the death of a few friends over the years, who we watched swirl their lives away into drug addiction, and  in the case of women, prostitution too, only to die far too young.

And I was not going to share this story publically, as I am sure some men would use it to prove how evil women are, but anyway here goes...

He gased hiumself in his work truck, a few months after his wife prostituted him out for a 3 karate gem stone she coveted. And still covets to this day as a matter of fact... am no longer friends with her,  but am with her sister.

You see, he had told no one he had been sexually abused by his father for years, so when his wife, the person who was supposed to be his place of trust, whom he moved across Canada, away from his friends and family for, tricked him literally into prostituting himself, his self worth was completely gone, he left her in Toronto,  came back to BC, and shortly thereafter he was competely gone...too.

And I could share several stories very similar to that about women and mothers who have passd through my life, who have gone the same route...as there is just not the heroine romance novel out there about prostitution, that is being depicted here.And we can't view this most serious topic through that lense.

Sure enough there might be some swell prostitution stories such as yours, but they are rare, very rare.

And I have to ask, if a young woman was going through self esteem issues, would anyone have thought to fix it by buying her a "man"?

.as there is just not the heroine romance novel out there about prostitution, that is being depicted here.And we can't view this most serious topic through that lense.

Once again, this is false, but continue anyways. You prehaps can't view it through any lens that doesn't fit your own experience. Many of us can. There have been many people posting articles, research (BTW remind, you do know the NDP supports decrim right? as does the Bloc), real life stories.

The difference between the sides is that for the most part, we listen, and for the most part, you don't appear to.

... prostitution is not  listed, massage parlour, steam bath and escort services are.....if you were listed and rthus coverable there would be no need for this court challenge...it would all be legal and covered under those 3 job industry labels.

Escorts  legally cannot sell coitus,  and if something happened to them while conducting in such, as an STI, they would not be covered, nor would a massage parlour worker, or a steam bath worker,

those workers, as you well know, are legally not allowed to sell coitus or genital contact of any type. And if they were proven to be doing so and thus got injured on the job, WCB certainly would use that as an excuse to disallow any claim by them.

your rewrite of history, in respect to the early women's rights movements, is pretty.....

You have taken a few grains of truth and twisted it to suit your purpose, it appears.

why not? my significant other has incredible affinity with women, they love him!!his attentions (not always sexual- even just flirting and converstation) has given more than a few women i know a burst of self confidence. he makes them feel beautiful, important, desired. he is intelligent, engaging and a great listner.

why do we assume only men "buy" sex and companion ship? because as much as you would like it to be "rare" that a customer is genuinely in need, it isn't.

women feel the same way, and sometimes will "pay" another person to fill this need. sometimes we all need to feel beautiful, desired and important. the shame here is how society views these transactions as merely sellng our vaginas or selling coitis.

it is not that simple...ever. every single client of a sex worker, man or woman, is in need when they seek our services.

i do feel terrible about the abuse your friend suffered at the hands of a woman. that is an awful story. as a generous person, it is difficult to imagine the mind set that allows women to become so materilaistic and bitter but one thing is for sure. they do.

cute.....? i don't think its too damn cute.....twisted....?pot/kettle

and yes they are allowed to sell their vaginas/coitis or whatever your terminology is today.....

the only way to legally ply your trade as a prostitute in canada is as an escort, exclusively going on"out calls" to peoples hotels and homes.

just because you want to twist and maniplate the facts doesn't mean we are not included.we are included and that is a fact. play osterich all you want. the fact remains we qualify.just becuase it doesn't say "selling coitis" or "vagina sales person" does not mean we do not qualify.

although i am sure you would only conceed if it said "engaging in the digusting work of selling vaginas and coitis" and spelled it out in those direct words.

escorting is the only legal way to be a vagina sales person/coitis sales person in canada.we qualify for WCB.

excuse me i have to go and sell some coitis now, i will be back with my vagina in a bit.

Stargazer, I have read everything several times....from both perspectives and I have read with most interest, what other countries have experienced with their going down this route, and NONE of it has been positive. Have you read them?

They have wasted all this money, on  a man's  believed right to have a leisure time ejaculation response whenever he wants, only to have to backtrack, and start rebuilding women's rights.

For pete's sake the Netherlands has now had to instrument a law that keeps wife abusers away from the house,  their spousal assault rates have gone up, I believe it was,  47% since they decriminalized prostitution. Things are so bad there they have to report to the UN human rights committee on it...

And if the NDP sticks to its decriminalization position,  without speaking about strict regulations, that is perhaps where I and many other feminists and others will have to part ways with them.

The forum that my name was brought up in was closed, so I'd like to make something clear here.

I'm not a prostituted woman or a formally prostituted woman. I'm also not a sex worker nor have I ever been. 

I do work closely with women who have fit into some of these categories, but I am not an experiential voice. I hope that doesn't discredit me later on. I also hope that the people who read the post where I was described as a formally prostituted woman are still reading the threads. 

Thanks. 

47%.....?rise in spousal abuse.....? please post a link for that assertion ....i don't believe this for a minute. just another attempt to blame violence against women on sex workers with no proof to back it up....please post this link detailing how the sex workers of the netheralands "legalization" not decriminalization by the way- has caused a rash of abuse of spouses.......

what a load.....

thank you JMartin, no it will not call your credibility into question in future in my mind but as for the poster who named you as such.....well, it just goes to show once again, as we are accused of manipulating facts so it seems our accusers are behaving. as i recall it was a question sex worker numbers on either side of the debate. thankyou for clarifying.

i just want to say that this is one of our biggest barriers, our opposition perpetuating myths about lives, claiming people are experiential when trying bolster their own perspective,,,truely it seems as if no tactic is too much ...to hell with te truth!!let's all honor oursleves instead!

Yes it does actually...people who work in the under ground economy in any industry are not covered....and illegal acts are definitely not covered.

it is not illegal in canada!!!!FFS

prostitution is legal in canada!!!on an outcall basisi, no criminal provisions make it illegal.we do qualify, our work is not illegal.

further more your assertions of the failure of new zealands decrim model are also false.

http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/act+helps+health+and+safety+sex+workers+report+says

The Prostitution Law Reform Committee, chaired by former Police Assistant Commissioner Paul Fitzharris, was asked to report within five years of the decriminalisation of prostitution to assess the impact of the law change on the human rights, welfare, and occupational health and safety of sex workers, and the ban on the use of young people in prostitution.

Lianne Dalziel thanked the Committee for its work and said the report was valuable in putting balance and evidence into the debate around the decriminalisation of prostitution.

"The report indicates that the numbers have remained more or less the same since the Act came into force and that most sex workers are better off under the PRA than they were previously, which was the intention of the Act.

"There's no evidence of increased numbers of people being used in underage prostitution. In fact, the PRA has raised awareness of the problem," Lianne Dalziel said.

"The PRA has had a marked effect in safeguarding the rights of sex workers. Removing the taint of illegality has empowered sex workers by reducing the opportunity for coercion and exploitation."

The report says many of the perceptions held about the sex industry are based on stereotypes and a lack of information.

no increase in youth involvment, no increase in trafficking, no hoards of women rushing to sell vaginas and coitis.....where are all the harms cited by our opposition> please post a link to your data on spousal abuse and the harms caused by the new zealand model....?

No remind, it doesn't. Can you back up your assertions with some facts and links and then maybe I can judge for myself? Thanks.

That's nice that this is your "personal opinion" but it is also an attack on one of our forum members, remind, claiming that she hates men. 

You will stay out of this thread from now on.  Don't even bother responding in this thread to my post - I don't care to hear it.  And any further contributions of yours to the feminism forum in other threads had better not include such stereotypes of feminists or attacks on our feminist participants.

...............

Susan it was  in one of the threads on the report of the Netherlands to the UN, I believe, or it stated there was now a 47% incidence of spousal abuse which was why they instrumented the new law that abusers must stay away...

Iy was a very high number like that anyway as I remember thinking it was equivalent to the amounts of spousal assualt per week there used to be, here in the community I live in, before VAW programs were instrumented.

And that is not even including the young underage girls, predominently of FN heritage, who were so devalued that they thought nothing of giving a BJ to an older man, for a beer or a joint.

One of those young girls,  just died from Hep  last year, after she went on to become a prostitute in PG.

Susan, people are allowed to disagree with you about decriminalization, and to discuss what they feel the effects of sex work on society is, including the family.  It's not defamation to discuss the issue.  No one is defaming you personally.

Michelle, what of the constant attacks on other women here? How about the assertion from Loretta that we are not feminists? I'm not sure why remind gets to bully people constantly and fortunate has to stay out. Remind has been incredibly offensive in many posts and has attacked people. We just aren't flagging them.

I respect your decison but there has to be a balance here. I am not the only person who is noticing these contant attacks.

Never said a word about NZ Susan,

Stargazer would gladly waste my time looking up links if I thought it were necessary,  but it it isn't.

Do you think this court challenge would be going on, if things were as depicted by the pro-decrim crowd? If it was currently such, there would be no reason for a court challenge, nor claims that prostitutes could not access other worker's social safety nets.

We know that escort services are legal, because legally there is supposed to be NO genital contact going on, just companion dates...

We know lap dances are legal because there is NO direct genital contact  going on.

The difference for the last time is, genital contact it changes everything.

WCB does not cover illegal work activities,  nor does EI, just as your house insurance does not cover you if you have a meth lab explosion, or a grow show and your house burns down....

I think it's fair to question if the views being presented are feminist which I understand to be promoting the equality and well-being of women. I also think it's fair to question, based on someone's overall posts (not just on one subject) if they are coming here to present this from a feminist point of view. Those are not personal attacks, rather questioning what the framework is surrounding presentation of this issue.

Then you know nothing of lap dances remind. The court challenge is going on because there is a NEED for one.I do not understand your fixation on my vagina and that of other women.

I cannot speak with people who absolutely a) refuse to see the there are legit issues and b) doesn't care when they are shown to them.

No Loretta, it isn't fair. You have opened a thread which was designed solely to discredit anyone who was for decrim or legalization.

I am a feminist and have been since I was 20 or so. I have read a ton of feminist work, took many women's studies courses in universty and I don't know one person who would say I am not a feminist.

Splitting people into two camps: feminist vs non-feminist was your decision because you think we cannot possibly be feminists. I am. The divide and conquering was done by you. No one else questioned whether those partnering up with REAl women of canada the catholic church and the christian fellowship are feminist or not but that case can be made by those who chose to divide us. That is not a case I am going to make. 

And once again remind, what part of the criminal code do you not understand?

Under the convoluted Canadian law, buying or selling sex is legal, but it is illegal to communicate about it beforehand, live off its avails, or run a private bawdy house.

I'm not sure about this, but I got the impression that "divide and conquer" referred to prostitution being one of those issues that divides and polarizes feminists so that we are fighting with each other about what we disagree on.  Maybe I'm wrong, in which case, I guess I should read more carefully - I didn't read every post in the last thread.

But that's how this whole thing playing out has struck me, anyhow.  There are women here who have known each other for years on babble, and every once in a (long) while, some issue will come along, sometimes in the feminism forum, sometimes elsewhere, that will divide and polarize feminists on babble.

This appears to me to be one of those times, and one of those issues.

Thank you for your wording of this...

And yes, michelle, that is how I take it too...in part only though, because most definitely some views being presented here are not a feminist positioning or actions.

Feminists do not accuse other feminists of being man haters for example....first time I have ever experienced it in over 3 decades.

Nor do feminists I know accuse me of being aligned with REAL women....

so I am definitely not sure that these type of prosepectives indicate a discussion of  this from a feminist standpoint

Because it is not from a eco-feminist viewpoint, and it does not embody the VAW principles long fought for.

That was my intention, michelle. Along with questioning the framework in which the issue is being presented here and how it's being done. I believe that we all use discernment when examining any issue, whether it be through the lens of feminism or not. If we are concerned about the environment, we filter anything presented to us through that lens, same thing with those who work in the realm of social justice. This thread and topic is being discussed through the lens of feminism so it's completely legitimate to ask if the issue stands up.

The other question that I'm sure many of us ask is: in whose interests is this perspective being presented? In this case, some of us are asking if this proposed change stands up to the goal of promoting women's equality and well-being. Some of us are also asking who might have a stake, that isn't related to women's well-being, in bringing about this change. Those are fair questions when we talk about the environment, social justice and feminism, to my mind.

After lurking on this and other discussions for a while I've decided to toss in a few thoughts for what their worth.

If I understand correctly "divide and conquer" was invoked by Loretta to describe what was happening to the abolitionist camp but I think your take on it describes the situation much more aptly, Michelle.

It seems evident that both sides of the argument stand against certain things in common such as pimping, trafficking, child abuse and abusive john's.  However, their approaches to the problem are very different.

Reasonably the success of either approach is contingent on other things.

Decriminalisation cannot offer any material improvement to those negatively impacted by the sex trade unless laws addressing things such as rape, trafficking and child abuse are more effectively enforced.  Laws exist to combat these things but they are inadequately enforced now and as it has been pointed out, if the sex trade is allowed expand under looser legislation there is great risk things deteriorating due to greater activity of abusers of mostly women and children.

On the other hand the abolitionist perspective fails to offer adequate consideration to those who remain in the sex trade by choice or at the very least depend on it for survival.  If reduction of the sex trade is done it must be ensured that adequate income is available in one way or another to those that might have depended on it (not including parties such as pimps and traffickers).  Further more, even if an approach such as the Swedish model is persued it is not evident that those who are in the sex trade by choice will be given adequate access to police protection as they still may be considered less deserving by society.

I may have missed it but much of the arguments presented seem to barely touch upon the fact that much of the evils of the sex trade seem to be tied to broader social phenomenon that make it possible to get away with abusive behaviour typically directed towards women and children but sometimes men as well.  Taking remind's story into account, is there a court that would have protected her friend had the situation been reported.  How many instances exist in today's society where women are abused by their partners in conventional relationships but nothing is done until it's too late and even then there are times when there is no action.

Both those advocating for decriminalisation and abolition would likely agree there is a broader social issue where it is unacceptably easy to get away abusive behaviour towards women.  Due to their political differences it seems unlikely that these parties would effectively work together to have laws better enforced and society as whole less tolerant towards abusive and violent behaviour.  However, it's possible that such cooperation does exist at times and I am simply not aware of it.

Remind, always crying victim but never ever taking responsibility in the many ways you harm people with your words.

BTW, since you actually are against decrim and the charter challenge, and you sided with martin on real women having standing, are you not then a part of that agenda, at least remotely?

See how easy it is to twist the motives of people and assume what isn't there? Sort of like how you are now claiming we're not feminist because our views differ from yours?

I'm sure the irony will be lost on you.

As an aside, you are aware of the different waves of feminism right? You are aware women do not speak uniformly? You are aware that we can differ without being stripped of our feminist credentials (which you can never do BTW regardless of what you write here). I am a feminist and if you ever bothered to actually read what I have posted in the decrim thread perhaps you'll have an understanding of that. Or perhaps not. I'm going with the latter just because it seems to make you happy to have strife here.

Great post, very succinct.

i understnad that but promotion of un proven non fact based opinions is harming sex workers. i deleted my othe post but i will state again. it's promotion of hatred which insights people to discrimination and violence and IMHO is at the very least defaming to sex workers over all...not to me personally but indirectly.

the poster in question has deemed it unimportant to back her biased claims yet demands i provide such links.mis information is one of the biggest threats to sex industry workers safety and stability there is.

especially a claim from "one of the UN reports i don't know i think?" stating sex workers are responsible for spousal abuse rising 47% in the netherlands as a result of legalization- called decriminalization in order to further confuse the situation and informtion being put forth.

it is the same as stating that all sex workers are survivors of child abuse...or 90%...never was a link to back that assertion provided. i would like to point out that many new reports seem to state that 10% of ALL children are the victims of childhood abuse....when you consider that with the percentage of sex workers represented by the street level industry....10%- 15%....it begins to demonstrate what we are trying to say. we are not all abused and victims of chilhood abuse any more than any other part of the population. the fact that abused children end up on the street in prostitution is a shame for us all. it is not the fault of the sex industry, it is our failure as a society to protect children and our failure as a society to continue to support abuse survivours after they have become adults....

crimalizing sex work further marginalizes these vulnerable people and in the meantime legal and legitimate sex industry businesses are close and disrupted based on some twisted interpretation of the above facts. the promotion of these mis interpretations based on data collected solely from street entrenched, drug addicted surviours of abuse engaged in prostitution and that excludes any empowered workers voices, is causing wide spread harm.

i can not understnad how it is legal to be honest. it is one thing to discuss a thing, but to ignore the facts and carry on as if we are right no matter what is presented is deplorable.

i would also like to say, that if any of the actions we are propsing was shown to cause harm, i would be the first one to admit it, i would be there saying, i was wrong, this is wrong, we made a mistake. 

will the abolitionist side do the same?it's been 100 years of prohibition....will they admit they may have been wrong? or will they refuse to hear any alternative solutions based on the underlying principle that sex work, in an of itself, is violence against women. not just sex working women but all women....i guess in some ways this has already occured in that the swedish model of decriminalizing workers does finally admit they may have been wrong about labeling us the vector of disease, throwing us into assylums for being crazy and immoral,arresting us.....

or is it as it was 100 years ago in that we should believe their assertions as gospel with no need of a source for credibility and the burden of proof is left to sex workers as of course we are not credible. should we, as 100 years ago, just accept that these people know what is best for us all and be greatful for the benefit of their obvious superior knowledge?

i mean c'mon. does the high number of first nations people in prison mean that all first nations people are criminals?or the high number of african american men in US prisons mean all african american men are criminals?sure if you are only lookng at the population based on people in prison....we know this is a misrepresentation.

yet, over and over then same assertions are made as if they are true, confusing people new to the discussion. if assertions are being made i respectfully request they be backed up by a link and specific quote from the data referenced so everyone can see what research sample population (cambodia, exclusvely survival workers, all rape crisis line connections, all arrested by police) was used, whether research ethics review board scrutiny took place (to ensure a non biased approach to research as per canadian federal government policies) and whether workers interviewed were given enough information and placed in an environment safe enough to form informed consent (were they under duress?did they feel safe not answering questions? what questions were asked, were tey in jail? did the researcher even contribute anything back to the community?)....

i repsectfully once again request that such blantantly misleading statements be backed up with a link to a source.

i will also once agai ask, what are the abolitionists plans for decriminalzing workers?...any word yet....? licensing, mandatory health checks.....? government run faciltities for customers to be tested before accessing our vaginas?

i just would like to point out that with less money and resources being spent on enforcment, and a system of industry accountability in place, we could make traffickers and pimps more visible and redirect ploice efforts to really target offenders. also if we give wokers access to resources through many of the ways we propose, they will more aware of their rights and how to access non biased supports.yes , it is a big job. but really...the typical response of "quick, cheap and dirty" on this issue will not work and cost people their lives. we need system wide reform and to be decriminalized immediately. all sides agree on that after all, workers should be decriminalzied.how will we all work to improve the systmes intended to protect sex workers and the gaps that exist within that system.

we have proposed alot of things in the sex worker rights forum if you care to take a look. sex workers know what we need. our voices are ALL (including those in opposition) important.

I would also like the proof of where New Zealand suddenly became removed from the world, because I cannot fathom how remind can say NONE like that. 

It reminds me of how that Farley farce reported that because the rates for rape was higher than average in Las Vegas that meant that the fact that prostitution was legal in Nevada was to blame for it.   Let us keep in mind that prostitution is not permitted in Las Vegas city, but actually takes place some 30 miles or so away.   The links between legalization and criminal assault are at best faulty, and at worst deliberately misleading lies.

oops, posted before reading all posts--  also went and edited out reference to specifics.

My point, which actually was supported, was that attempts to specify who qualifies, what is okay and what is not okay, when defining feminist is counterproductive and can, (as proven in the past) do more damage than good.  Allowing women and men to define themselves under their own conditions is more inclusive.

I would agree completely. A number of us have raised the issue of abusive behaviour toward women and whether or not proposed changes would be detrimental to that matter. As well, a number of us have also raised concern about the need for society to work towards improving the situation with those who are marginalized through racism, sexism, illness, and poverty (list not exhaustive). It is part of a larger picture rather than strictly limited to those who, for whatever reason, are involved in prostitution.

I don't think you understood michelle's point, susan. When people disagree with you, it doesn't mean they are promoting hatred of you or any group to which you belong. No-one is defaming "sex workers" unless you mean those who have power within that industry to the detriment of those who don't.

once again, it is not an illegal activity, tus the challenge, if it is not illegal, then why are we treated like criminals?

no i am specifically refering to misinformation with no back up or what are essentially "opinions"  being posted here as if they are facts. and by definition in the international charter of human rights (i am human) can be characterised as such. imho

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

Article 20

1. any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law
2. Any advocacy or national, racial, cultural or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.

Article 26

• 1. all persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law. In this respect, the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination on any ground such as race, color, sex, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

or how bout this

Article 17

1. no person shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks upon his honor and reputation.

2. everyone has the right to protection of law from such interference or attacks.

Again, susan, these articles are subject to years of case law and interpretation -- they are not a carte blanche to do whatever one wants, whether it's in the name of work or not. Has the UN ruled on "your" case?

ETA: Yes, people hold different opinions that you do and they base them on sources of information that you discount. The same is true in the other direction -- that's debate, it's not hate.

Divide and conquer ?
(generally speaking) (wrote this out before I read p-sto, he said it better)

I try to choose my words very carefully given the intense and valid concerns here, wondering if I (and others think) am here to confuse the issue.
My intention is to cure the disease, "to get to the bottom of it", and focus on what can be agreed upon.
 I admire, strong bold women, those that choose their work (whatever it is),  and those that lookout for the young, the vulnerable, the underdog. That is the common trait I see here.
  Whether you think it is only some, or mostly all men, it is mens behaviour
at the core of this issue. As a few have touched upon (in other threads), it is our culture/society that needs a rethink. What do we do about it ? (I welcome any points to threads on this topic)

I am the product of poverty, broken home, CAS ward, guardian tried to make me his girlfriend, on my own at eighteen.

Things that bother me :
Education. Seems only a half credit in Civics gets you high school diploma.
Media. I would shut down Much Music until further notice (no more primetime pimp rap)
Law. Ex PG judge gets seven years (soft time). Should get twenty breaking rocks.

As a male I'm rather curious about the suppostion that the sex trade is fundamentally degrading to women by creating disposable women and sex on demand.

Ideally speaking a sex worker should be allowed to refuse any client she wishes and have control over the terms of sex.  In practice this fails because because the worker may face violence from the person she refuses, violence from a pimp, fear of losing a client due to not meeting their demands, emotional coercion or she may be compelled by financial requirements.  These concerns excluding pimps also exist outside the sex trade in more socially accepted relationships.  I very much doubt that men would treat their partners or women in general in this fashion do so because they have learned it from sex workers.

As opposed to claiming sex work degrades women I am more inclined to believe that there is a significant portion of society that does not respect women and this lack of respect plays out more frequently within the sex trade as it is viewed as more permissible.

For the record Susan I am in support of decriminialisation.  However, I consider the law and the police to really be the smallest part of the battle.  A respecting sex trade can't really exist in a society that does not fully respect women.  The law is very little if it is not supported fairly by society.

Good luck in your struggle.

i couldn't agree with you more, and thankyou.

man, that judge should have gotten the death penalty...put em in general population i say...

So, susan, what you're saying is that there have been presentations made to the UN but no rulings on the scope of the articles you quoted.

In case you haven't picked it up, for the most part, it's not the "workers" that many of us question here.

what articles, you mean my opinion...on sex workers as qualifying?

not sure i understnad, just making a point that sex workers have been to the UN and that workers have fought for recognition as workers....that's all...

and of course the point i made about the woman from argentina being assasinated, and how people here seem to forget how much we risk by being "out" and fighting for our rights....in particular those who like to insinuate we represent organizaed crime....pimps, traffickers....i have heard it all hear on babble, even professor young was accused of forcing female law students to take part in the challenge using his male privelge.....or was "funded"by organized crime.....ya, canada's foremost law school donating it's time pro bono as part of the pimp and trafficker conspiracy theory.....

also, no one seems willing to acknowlegde the cultural piece of older workers becoming madames and passing on their knowledge....

susan, it's not helpful to accuse people of taking positions that they/we haven't taken. Organized crime does get involved in various elements of life, where there's money to be made. So does the corporate sector. Neither have the interests of workers or women at heart but certainly many have presented arguments based on women's equality and/or worker rights and many of us have called their bluff.

Unfortunately, around the world, those arguments are persuading people to support governments and positions that aren't in their interests so you'll have to cut those of us who are skeptical and want more evidence a little slack.

i am not talking about you loretta, it has been stated here by others.i try to cut people slack, i really do. but i refuse to sit by while mis information about us is promoted as fact.

i understnad what you mean now about articles...duh?sorry brainfart!!

no, i have never seen any UN or human rights cases presented or won in regard to the articles of the charter i posted.we are not recognized as a distinct culture or easily identifialble group...etc-so do not qualify for protection from discrimination

thefword

Low blow remind. Shall I post a few nasty pieces up from the abolitionists crowd? Then I can do so in a passive aggressive way and say, "oh, I posted this not to taint you with that brush! I would never do that". Classy.

How about this: abolitionists don't really care about women, they care about controlling women's sex. Puritanical people who wish to infantilize women. make them slaves.

Really remind. Is this the best you can do?

What, are you trying to say I have no right to a quote,  from the fword, of all places, an article written  and researched by a former prostitute?

ETA: this is the feminist forum, and I do not understand the attempts to silence

no one will ever silence you remind, you have a right to your opinion.

stargazer-it's ok, it's the same old argument- sex workers are not recognized as a distinct culture- even though we are present all throughout human history.this is why we are interested in being recognized as such.

people aren't allowed to discriminate against workers.....?and the UN has already established a precedent of sex work as work in that regard. if child slaves in india can unionize carpet making, why can we not do the same......why can we not expect equal protection under the law?our ptrofession is discriminated against on so many levels starting with seperate criminal provisions for violence against us. 

i love how they always quote the lowest wages in feminist arguments,it's so horrible !look how "cheap"it is!!!....unless they are trying to say we are privelged or "a list" and even then our voices are even more diminished by naming the top possible price....as if we are greedy or you know gold diggin'....just out to protect our own interests....or the interests of men....evil...traffickers...sex consumers...demons......you know, we're the "chicks out front", representing all that is bad and causing violence against women. its our fault.

You need to read what we're writing, susan, not what you're reading into it.

In terms of madames nurturing younger women in the brothels, I don't think this is the reality. Emma Thompson has been working to expose that as a myth in her interactive art exhibit Journey. There, a very different story is told.

Also, I think it's important to hear from those who don't support the move to legalize prostitution and set up a brothel in Vancouver. Rick and Lynn Frey, mother of Marnie Frey, a young woman among Robert Pickton's victims, strongly object and have posted a piece called To Anyone Using Our Daughter's Legacy [66] on the website of the Vancouver Eastside Missing Women.

i absolutely agree that all voices are necessary. maggie devries, sarah devries sister supports decriminalization, is a friend and testified in the charter challenge.

the divides even exist amongst the families of the victims in the trial in the case of the missing women.

respectfully, i would ask that people do not use that person's name. we feel that fame is a contributng factor in the motives for these crimes and during the trial tried to impress the same idea on media.we should remember the women who died, not him.

in the DTES, we refer to it as the trial in the case of the missing women. it was a community based decision made suring media training for sex worker organizations in preparation for the trial.

in a previous case, the sex workers on the street reported up to 9 reporters a day trying to film them and interview them. we organized a unified front and with the help of VPD media liason created a plan to prevent that type of thing from playing out again...we were for the most part successful.

sorry, i just always have to say that. i try really hard but it still comes out sometimes....

i would also like to point out, there are already brothels in vancouver....why should we not, in a triage, worker controled kind of way, stabilze the immediate safety of the sex workers on the street? why can we not give them a toilette to use, security, access to resources? when i worked ouside it was awful. you find a decently secluded spot and use in for a while but then some one will complain about the mess( i have never worn a condom, not sure why it's balmed on workers) and the police will follow you and bust you naked while engaged in?coitis" with your curtomer in a car. extremely humiliating. as well as these secluded spots are great spots to rape and kill you...no one to see, no one to hear....i had to dive out of cars and run for my life....it was insane. the police routinely kicking us all out of the hotel where we lived.

outside you are completely vulnerable...raining, cold, wet....there isn't even a 24 hr space yet...almost...and damn its nice....

how can we argue we are enabling...it is happening now....it has been for years......we need to stop the slaugter right now.....why is it not ok to connect people to resources, alternative income sources(the other coop enterprise aspects) and a community to be part of anf proud of....?we all share the same eperiences...we are the best medicine for each other.

it's not like we're talking about rounding sex worker up and putting them into government controled limited access to our vaginas institution as has been suggested by others.

we were inspired by a sex worker coop in india and a man who won the nobel prize for peace, not some over romanticized version of history as peeople would have you believe. we are not looking to paint some pretty woman picture. we are woking hard under direction from sex workers themselves, our membership -a genre and gender and racially diverse group of workers all with varying capacities- we spent 2 years working up to incorporation to ave all our work thrown in our faces by a lie- the olympic brothel lie- our actions were misrepresented, the wishes of the workers themselves ignored- meanwhile a huge misinformation /fundraising campaign ensued.....

i  choose to honor the voices of the workers, much respect to the families of the victims but i am responsible to my constituency and must remain true to direction.

Out of curiosity, what is the best way to title the above-mentioned mass murder trial? I like the idea that the women should be the focus when we remember this case. Titles and language are very important to me as I believe it frames the debate.

I think it's really important to note that the Vancouver anti-human trafficking campaign that was mentioned above is NOT a fundraising campaign. It is an awareness raising campaign. The speakers in the panels at the campaign meetings share their stories, experiences, and research. 

People that share their own experiences are not liars until they misrepresent their own experience, which we've not seen yet on these panels. Women in these panels do not claim to represent all women in the sex industry. They represent their own experiences and share statistics that have been congruent with their experiences. I can absolutely respect that there are people who hold a contrary experience to those panelists and organizers of the above-mentioned campaign. However, I'd personally appreciate if people would refrain from calling that campaign a "lie". I believe that those who share their experiences do not deserve to be called liars. 

I've attended campaign meetings for full decriminalization that took a similar format to the anti-human trafficking campaigns in Vancouver and have managed not to publicly attack anyone's efforts towards justice in the sex industry no matter how much I may disagree with the solutions they offer. It can be done. I think abolitionists and those supporting decrim can start listening to (and stop ignoring) each other when we can agree that no one deserves to be attacked for their informed opinion.

I've been looking for quite some time for someone who supports decriminalization to swap reading material with me. I'd like to take a look at the most convincing arguments (or perspectives) for decriminalization. So far I've been called a moralist and told I'm not worth listening to for suggesting such a swap...but the challenge is out there. Let's trade. 

OK, but it should be no surprise that most of us are going to be looking at the broader picture of the effect on all women when considering the issues.

Susan, I don't think you showed "much respect" or even any respect to Rick and Lynn Frey here.  I know that sometimes reporters chop stories and can take statements out of context but that whole exchange was painful to read.

Didn't she just post the link to a story? Is there some other infraction susan has committed against these people to warrent that G.Pie? I haven't seen it so maybe you can enlighten me.

Aw forget it, I found it. It is called a difference of opinions. Susan was not speaking directly to that family, she was speaking to the media.Who knows what was edited out.

i am not talking about the anti trafficking campaign ,i am talking about specifically the "no olympic brothels"campaign- whic did lie about the intentions of canada's first sex worker coop.i have proof of correspondence between myself and the groups in question in that they new we did not want an olympic brothel yet went ahead with their campaign anyway causing major misunderstands and essentially stalling our plans for trying to ensure workers had an alternative income source during the games becuase, as i have said all along and is already happening. sex workers will experience an economic crash during the games and will and are being seriously impeeded as "clean up"begins-seymor strollhas been gentrified displacing all those workers and as we are all inside the "security zones".

we call it "the trial in the case of the missing women"

sorry to get so upset.....

• for our elders
• for our community
• for ourselves
• for our leaders
• for each other...etc.

anyone who knows me will tell you i know respect. i am not the one who who started the name game by dropping names. another unacceptable practice in street culture. anyone who tried to drop names or impress you with who they know are what's known as a...well it's a swear word so i won't put it here, i don't want to call anyone names i'm just explaining myself. 

i have never used the names of any missing women in my work or tried to say i represent them. the abolitionist side however felt it was appropriate to invoke my friend, nikki,  who was murdered, name in their cause even though she herself would have never been allied with them. she was pro decrim.it disgusting to see the depths some people sink to.

i know respect and knew that not all families were comfortable with our work and so never name drop when delivering speeches or writing. i mention maggie and sarah here as a reaction to your name dropping and now regret it and saying you started it is no excuse. but let me tell you, it is in extremely poor taste in my opinion to bring people's names into it.

i worked on the street during "that persons" reign of terror and this is something that happened to all vancouver sex workers. we were all terrified, who will be gone next, workers being murdered in our hotel, police refusing to take our reports. (a story i tell in another thread about a female police officer telling a sex worker who had been assaulted- she didn't really feel like taking the report- or another officer telling a trans worker who was reporting an assault-good....) police kicking us out of our hotels making us desperate to find new lodging and desperate to make money to pay for it...no refunds just cause you were kicked out by police...getting into cars, desperately negotiating, workers being stripped and wearing garbage bags to get back to the hotel....

i as any vancouver street sex worker from that time am a survivor of it and can express my feelings in that regard if i like. as can any one really as we were all affected, but name dropping is unacceptable unless you are her direct family. i am sorry you find it hard to read about the working conditions but them are the facts.honestly, i can see no more pressing objective that stabilizng the safety of workers still facing these conditions and regardless of their state of mind. we need to connect people to resources and make them safe...i still remember those days so vividly...cold...lonely...

it's just so bizarre to me that safety wouldn't be our first priority and that stabilizing their safety is seen as "enabling" or some crap...weird...

Loretta, I would have liked for you or someone else critical of the decriminialisation movement to have addressed the ideas that I raised in post #50.

I should likely say more on the subject but I'm having a difficult time composing my thoughts on something so complex for the moment.  I can imagine various scenarios that could be harmful but I'm still having trouble with the idea that improving the status of sex workers is necessarily bad for the remainder of women.

One of the reasons these threads are so difficult to moderate, and there are lots, is that by the time something comes to the moderators attention a lot of posts have passed under the bridge and it is certainly very impractical if not impossible to read upthread or reference other threads to appreciate the context of any post of concern.  Lots of threads, lots of posts, unusually high average word count. (frankly I don't think the content justifies the utter overwhelming volume, but I've always seen concise as a cardinal virtue)

So with respect to this post...

Stargazer you and remind aren't seeing eye to eye on these threads.  We get that.  When you say that about abolitionists I know you're using it as an example, but it's infammatory, unjustly accusitory, and relates to why we don't allow ironic racism for example.  Abolitionists are NOT motivated as you suggest, so don't post it.

It's also a personal attack.  Doubtless you don't think it is.  I could probably find posts of remind's which sound like personal attacks on you, and she would think they aren't.  (that's not an invitation to start looking for them BTW)

I don't think that anyone here is badly intentioned in what they post, but could we please make this about issues, and not eachother , and not speculate about eachothers intentions.

Oh so I should just post up a nasty little item them, with no coments and that would have been okay?

Remind dropped that little bit as a direct attack, and once again remind walks away with nary a word as to her behaviour. In this thread and in many many threads.

But okay oldgoat. Wouldn't it be fair to say that what remind posted was inflamatory, and a form of attack as well? At least to show some fairness here?

BTW, I am definitely not the only person on the end of remind's attacks. I know, I've gotten PMs. The more you guys come down on others but not her the more rope you give her to attack people. Just look at the threads. The truth is there.

also, jmartin;

i thought we were all posting links to reading material....?i would be happy to exchange literature.are you in vancouver?i could lend you books and you could lend me books!!!

I repect p-sto's posts and look forward to more. But if memory serves was there not a ban in place on males posting to the Feminist Forum?

I am personally not in favour of such a ban BTW

p-sto

i have a hard time wrangling the concept as well....?are one group of women more valuable than another? worth compriising the safety of for the sake of the safety and protection of the other? are we unsavable, damaged goods to be left on the curb.....?

this has always been the most difficult argement to hear, it will compromise the safety of "real"women....like the police man i did new recruits training with telling new recruits..."taking bad date reports from sex workers is important, it could help to solve a crime against a real woman".....

are we not real? do we not deserve protection....?am i not a human being entitled to equal protection under the law.....?

these hypothesis or "but what ifs" promoting fears of escalated violence against "real"women under decrim, are not justification for doing nothing. my friends are dead and aren't on any lists...their bodies were found, their murders in some cases solved.

how many people who cry "but what if...." face being kidnapped,terrorized,stripped, assaulted, murdered,raped,robbed,freezing to death,OD....when they try to work everyday....and by that i mean, earn money?

i guess i do still to a degree....but not compared to what i witnessed on the street....nice choices i have eh? which of the dangerous environments is least dangerous....?dangit!!

I was under the impression that we may post as long as we don't speak over the femaies.  Can't seem to find where I read that at the moment.  Either way I'm happy to post these questions somewhere else if I'm perceived as disrupting the flow of conversation among the feminists.

P-sto:  no, do not go elsewhere. I was just wondering...

Nope.  There are a few individual males who have been kicked out of certain threads, or the Feminist forum for good, but there is no such catagorical rule.  Also, occasionally a particular thread may be designated woman only by the opening poster for reasons which we hope are clear at the time.  That doesn't happen often though.

good I think any general ban would be very counter-productive. Nuff said.  Thanks OldGoat

Studies show more than 90 per cent of women in the sex trade are not there by choice

your link does not support your assertion, you attacked the brothel the same way the last time i posted about it remind.

as i explained before, i expressed that thhere were 5 distinct wtrolls in vancouver and that coop business models could support those groups in deciding what they need on a localized level.

your link merely goes to the same article you posted before and as i explained before, it is a mis quote by a reporter.please do not post misinformation about sex workers with no data to back your claims. i have expressed this over and over. you are confusing the debate by presenting statements as fact. please post a link to support your assertion of 90% of sex workers being there by choice....?or should we trust a reporter...or you?....as an expert i mean...?

as far as i know such a census has never been taken and there is no real way of proving these numbers which are for the most part based on sample studies groups of street entrenched, drug addicted survival sex workers who comprise 10% of our industry and interestingly enough reflect child abuse estimations among the entire general population...10%.

c'mon remind, we already did this once a;ready in this thread...it's getting tiring...where's your link to support your assertions? you could always pull up another article describing us as mentally ill/ crazy and not in control of how we really feel....with our fake arguments.....

it is not an accurate representation and should be considered as fact in these discussions.

post a link to support these assertions or don't post them at all.

also, the men did come for thhe construction boom and we did make lots of money....it's over ...we ave always said sex workers will experience and economic crash during the games as i describes above...again in the thread.....

we did incorporate canada's first sex worker cooperative and the article does nothing but support my assertions that there never was a plan for an olympic brothel.shall i post proof in the form of correspondence again.....?i can't believe you have such a short memory. we have been over and over this specific thing.

the plans for our coop are here for everyone to see, just search the forums people. you tell me, where in any of our writing or plans, did we ever say, olympic brothel?never.it has however proven to be an effective tactic on the part of the abolitionists to undermine the real activities of the coop and prevent and further movement towards our real goals of alternative income sources, and safety.

so remind, by all means...hack away...it changes nothing. we never wanted or tried to creat an olympic brothel.

Excuse me, I never posted this link before, so you and I never addressed anything about it, not in this thread nor any other, in fact I just came across it this am......before I even entered this thread as a matter of fact.

If you have issues with the newspaper who posted that  90% data please take it up with them....all I was doing was providing info that seemed to counter your declarations that you stated no interest in starting a legal  brothel for 2010.

~

Am deeply disquieted about the trafficking details in the article, which is actully of more interest to me, than this thread topic

Damn scarey to think 40,000 women and children could be being trafficked in BC in that 2 weeks.

And  I read elsewhere this morning that street children in SA are already being picked up by organized crime to service men's "needs" for the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

Thanks remind. As someone who had to field dozens of media calls as to a feminist ant-violvence response to the plans to open brothels for the oympics, I am grateful for the correction of the slur that the abolitionists constructed this situation and did so as some kind of trick. 

I do see that it is no longer in the interests of the sex trade profiteers to blithely claim that the olympics is just another business opportunity for the sex trade.  And I do see how those interested in building the "coop" brothels for slightly better motives in both Vancouver and Victoria got the impression that there would be an exemption from the law, cooperation from the regulating bodies and tolerance from the "progressives".

But now the profiteers and their apologists feel the outrage of the community at this back door way of decrimializing/legalizing and normalizing a dangerous business. The business and its promoters no longer want to have us see the connection between sporting events and sex tourism between the promotion of brothels and the number of johns, between domestic prostitution and the trafficking of women from the poorest parts of the world to meet that demand.

But reality more than clever abolition strategy keeps the issue in front of the public: The Bakker case of torture of both Asian children and addicted Vancouver women prostituted, the Pickton case of indoor "partying" with  the Hells Angels and the destitute women of the downtown east side, the Ng case of suspected trafficking of Asian women, the trafficking of the Fujian women from China through Vancouver to the USA, the recent murder conviction of an indoor massage/escort by Andrew Evans and the missing Aboriginal women of both the downtown eastide and the highway of tears in the interior do that (and there are many more)

The tolerance for and even promotion of the demand for prostitution of women and children in Vancouver and the trafficking of women and kids to Vancouver became a public issue when the then mayors Larry Campbell then Sam Sullivan appeard to be going along with the brothel notions and the notions of red light districts. The coop developers bragged of money from Van city and promises from politicians.  Feminist spoke up.

It certainly is true that Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter objected early to the tolerance of prostitution by the authorities who seemed only too content to let women die in the streets and let women migrate into danger for the sake of the pleasure of individual men and the profit of motorcycle gangs and international traffickers. My earliest memory of such work was the old slogan of "For the prostitutes and against prostitution" and a public protest in the death of Linda Tatrai pre Expo.  We remain against the criminalization of ther women and children and few men sold in prostitution and for the criminalization of those who exploit them as johns pimps and owners.  (despite the revisionist hestory posted here of both a constantly divided women's movement and a joyful golden age of prostitution)

Authorities have been content to harass women trapped in prostitution but let john's pimps and bawdy house owners escape the rule of law. Not to speak of evading the human responsibility to put an end to the demand that supports this multimiliion dollar international trade in human beings. Criminalizng the buying of sex is one good way to do that. 

those numbers are not true remind......and i did discuss it before. with you...i will go back and read all threads again just to find it for you.....not.

once again, just because it "says so in the paper" doesn't make it true.the VPD and the SIWSAG action group contracted an investigation into this and it has been since debunked. it will not happen.

estimates from RCMP say 600-800 people are trafficked in canada each year...it's a big leap to 40,000 in 2 weeks.did you not read any of the articles from england...900 brothel raids...no trafficking victims? even in the US...where supposedly there are 250,000 trafficking victims each year were 1200 cases documented by authorities......this is a case of panic created by skewed data and biased research.

we have beaten this subject to death.

http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/other/2009/127202.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails [92]

http://vancouver.ca/police/diversity/2009/HumanTrafficking.pdf [93]

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/body-and-soul/coop-brothel-lies-and-mis-information-harm-canadas-first-sex-worker-coop-defame [94]

also see the 2010 impacts thread in sex worker rights forum, sex industry association and the 20 other threads on this subject in this forum. also, i would like point out thedate on that article...it is hardly current and luck for us we have built relationships with police in vancouver so this type fear propganda will not be causing wide spread raids...

the police are really interested in "cleaning up" the city before the games and have displaced or in the words of sex workers' trafficked"them- defined as forced movement of a person"- so who are the traffickers" the rsidents in neighbourhoods complaining to plice-"get rid of those prodtitutes!"police forcing migration because of complaints....

the propoganda around trafficking is ridiculous.

geez lee, are we back to calling me a profiteer?castig me as representing business owners? the group in victoria succesfully opened a worker controleed escort service with extended medical etc. we won public support for our coop brothel in vancouver and it seems we will not need an excemption, just equal treatment to other brothels that already exist all over vancouver. it's nice that you are trying to blame me now, for the mis information camapaign started by you and your affiliates and to blame me for the subsquent media onslaught which i also had to field, featuring some of the most aggressive abolitionist reporters i have ever encountered. and attacks from your associates everytime i try to speak publically and trying to ambush me by luring me to speak on panels that you, once i confirm i will speak, immediatley highjack and fill with your supporters so you can all take turns taking pot shots at me. it looks like i will once again have to post my proof here;

i never once asked for an olympic brothel and my assertions about the harms caused by these anti olympic brothel campaigns on the real activities of the coop are true.

a letter between myself and a member of awan;the date is on dec 12,th 2007- we debated after this and these groups were told we were not planning an olympic brothel but chose to go ahead any way in order to forward their own position. i would have welcomed a balanced debate on the safety impacts of a safe work environment for those people still entrenched in the street level trade. but instead it as been made out to be an "olympic issue" and never was. it is a misrepresentations and as disasterous efforts on our goals for alternative income sources for sex workers during the games and their high level security and displacment of workers.post cards, pressure on government and police leading to a series of raids on asian massage parlours in reaction to mellissa farely coming to vancouver at the request of the same groups...3 asian massage parlour workers have been killed this year....any sense of responsibility for destabilizing the safety of these workers? you know by forcing raids to find "trafficking "victims?will you push for the same during the games?

Laura H)

Sent:
December 12, 2007 10:15:18 PM

To:
susan davis

Hello Susan,
Thank you for the Email and your phone call today.  It would be best at this point in time if you Email us with the information that you suggested presenting to us.  
With the holiday season fast approaching, it does not seem possible that we can meet with you & the two First Nations women you mentioned in your phone call today.
Best Regards,
Laura

From: susan
To: laura h
Subject:
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:19:45 -0700

hi there!
my name is suan davis and i'm a sex worker of 21 yrs .
i am also the coop development coordinator for the sex worker cooperative we are opening with the sex workers in the downtown east side of vancouver.

i find it very difficult to hear your opposition to this action as it is the action called for by the sex workers themselves in the downtown east side.
we have a coop development team made up of the sex workers from that community and 2 of them are first nations sisters. the coop is not just the brothel. it is the foundation of the sex worker community beginning to rebuild and stabilize our safety.
i agree that no one should have to do sex work and that we must end the survival level trade.

Three Major points about the sex worker coop;

1.                          The coop will be owned by and operated by the sex workers who access it. Direction of the company and distribution of any profits will be voted on by the membership, sex workers from the downtown east side.

2.                          The coop is more than the safe work site. It also encompasses other community economic development activities  such as an art collective (every sex worker I know is an artist), coop catering company, coop publishing company, and coop consulting firm (we do training for the VPD, Fed government and wish to standardize these curriculums and allow other sex workers to be empowered through these engagements as well as get paid!)

3.                          The coop brothel will not go forward without extensive community consultation and an amnesty from the criminal code of Canada. We respect due process and feel strongly that a limited amnesty could be achievable in this case. We will not however go ahead without community support and do not want to put the police in a position where they have to arrest us.

also, we were funded by vancity, we weren't"bragging about it" its nice when you make me seem pathetic though, as if all i can do brag....we did it, we incorporated....we were funded by vancity....

really, i take exception to being diminished and belittled in this way. i work my ass off, we get funding...just like the occupational health and safety training is done and was funded by the health authority. apparenty we are not as uncredible or pathetic as you would have people believe.

is it so hard for you to believe we have support for our plan and it is going forward? or do you just enjoy upsetting me.

i question the credibility of anyone who is willing to harm a sex worker to "save" a sex worker.

again,lee.... i would like to ask that people do not refer to the men who kill us by name.

we refer to it as the trial in the case of the missing women and it the other case, we could refer to as the trial in case of the torture of women in the DTES.....as explained it is our assertion that fame is a contributing factor in these crimes and so we respectfully request people do not use those persons names.

http://members.shaw.ca/pdg/donald_michel_bakker.html

a link to a story about the trial in the case of the man who tortured women in the DTES.

indoors is no safer than out of doors then, contrary to some findings otherwise?

Externalities to the situation are not killing and torturing women, men are killing and torturing women.

Indeed, in my thinking about the  statistics posted that show an alleged  increase in deaths, (I say alleged only because there was no link given) which  were stated to  be from lack of indoor facilties, it would seem to me, that what they  really show is, that the more focus society puts upon male's ejaculatory responses, the higher the death rates for women involved in prostitution have climbed, over the years.

remind said: " the more focus society puts upon male's ejaculatory responses,

the higher the death rates for women involved in prostitution have climbed, over the years."

1. why would increased "focus" cause a higher death rate? I don't see a connection between focus and death rate.

2. how do we know death rates have increased?

Susan  posted either in this thread or in the other one,  a non-linked table showing increases in prostitute death statistics going back to the 60's.

It shows quite clearly that since the advent into society of  a  focus on men's  penus pleasure, women have been objectified more, the more objectification  and marginalization occuring the less humanity is felt towards the target group, and the more disposable people become.

History has shown this to be true.

It is also backed up by sociological studies

Fair question  though I suppose, but one should ask; why should the closing of show lounges for example increase prostitute deaths?

Perhaps we should mount a campaign against Viagra, and all the media that promote it. We should tell the men (and their wives) when the willy stops working, "to live with it".

Susan posted a link a while back that indicated an increase in the number of sex worker deaths and correlated the increase to more restrictive legislation regarding sex work.  As some one that works in statistics I consider it a bit problematic to draw any conclusions from the numbers she posted for a variety of reasons.  Part of me wouldn't mind seeing the link again to get a better sense of the numbers since I only gave them a cursory view last time.

On the other hand, I'm getting rather tired of seeing both sides trot out statistics that are going to be at least some what inaccurate since the entity they're examining is by it's nature difficult to pin down.

At their best statisics tend to offer a vague idea of the scope and shape of a situation.  They're often much less informative than people assume them to be because reporting can often be inaccurate and apparent relationships are almost always conflated with factors not considered in the analysis.  A dogmatic following of the numbers can be very misleading.

Statistics can inform us to a degree in this issue but a definitive answer as to the right approach isn't going to from them.  Personally I'd like to see less numbers in the discussion and better effort of both sides to address each others concerns.

There are lies, and then there are statistics...

P-sto - I was thinking of starting a thread about the common grounds covered by both sides. Maybe you can?

Thanks for the link.

Do not think a brothel or a co-op would have stopped these actions, he was right up front about what he was going to do apparently....and indeed the following indicates that it was just accepted as so, so what if it was indoors,  in room they rented, the same thing would have occured to these women.

Long thread.