Don't Rape, Part 2 — Why women don't report sexual assault

More from the same article:

If I had to do this all over again I would never have gone to the police. Ever. They treat you like shit. They ask you questions that infer you deserved what you got. You end up reporting a rape to these bastards and THEY decide whether if was consensual or not. Not you, not the courts - they decide. They have the ultimate power to not investigate a rape. You go in traumatized you come out more traumatized, all the while you can tell they couldn't care less what happened. Identify as aboriginal or non-white and you are doubly screwed. Poor? Triple screwed.

No - the police are useless. Also you might want to think twice about ever calling these bastards up tp see if there has been any movement at all on your case. Don't call if you are crying, don't call if you are mad. They will abuse you more, perhaps even call you lovely names like "ditch pig".Is there any recourse available? No. Bottom line is, the police determine if a rape occurred and they WILL NOT investigate if they think one hasn't, or if they think it is too much work, or if the man who did was an undercover cop.

What a trigger this thread is (sorry writer but it is the truth)

No need to apologize, Stargazer. It's a real bind, to know you live in a rape culture, to see that reality be ignored or misrepresented much of the time, and to understand how hard it is as a survivor to open it up.

I was talked to by the very sensitive Sexual Assault Squad. The nice lady cop asked me how I'd know it was a sexual assault unless a judge told me it was a sexual assault. She seemed very surprised when I told her that I was confident about what it was, and, knowing the abysmal statistics of the criminal justice system, felt no need for any kind of affirmation from a judge. I knew what happened without their help.

Oh, and they went hard at me, I believe, because I *wasn't* crying. I wouldn't let myself cry until after the interview. Fuckers.

But in terms of this piece, I think it raises a real challenge around race and solidarity. I've been thinking much of the day about what can be done to address this.

writer, the component if racial bias is what I found to be the biggest trigger...anyway still not able to post in this thread...perhaps tomorrow...

ETD but thank you it needs to be addressed, but am just too tired....personally right now

before I retire for the evening  am going to bring this bit below forward from the other thread, and address the actualities it contains, as opposed to pontificating while not getting what was stated.

 Exactly!

 Why should I have put it more neutrally? There was, at that point in time, absolutely no reason for me to have.

It wasn't, in actual fact it was a DEFENSIVE move, and it pisses me off to no end, that a woman, in the feminist forum, of all places, would 'obliquely' tell me and tell the reading others, that I am attacking the men who are overwhelming the thread and thus women's discussions about how rape has impacted us, in what is supposed to be a safe place, and after being asked specifically not to...several times.

 Talk about victim blamming....there was a fine example of it.

 Again, exactly! As I was not even speaking about 1 specific male post at all, but all of them!

 Accurate observation.

The pandering on the part of women who do so, has got to stop, it does not work here, nor in interpersonal relationships, nor indeed in society at large. When the pandering stops and true equality is, or can be, achieved. And that is when meaningful and real realtionships actually occur.

In Toronto, a woman was visiting a cemetery yesterday. She was beaten and raped. Visiting a cemetery.

We. Live. In. Rape. Culture.

writer, I heard about the cemetery attack on the news this morning. cbc.ca The attack took place at 7pm, full daylight, in downtown Toronto.

Our culture is a rape culture. Rape is normal because rape has been normalized.

Stargazer, hugs and strength to you.

I've said this before when the topic of reporting sexual assault comes up: Jane Doe's book "The Story of Jane Doe: A Book About Rape" has a huge piece about what it means to tell women to automatically call the police if they are sexually assaulted. Doe speaks to all the abuse you endured, Stargazer and writer, since she experienced that herself when she reported her rape to the police. She does not endorse reporting, and advises against crisis counsellors to suggest this as a first option. At the very least, women need to know that the interrogation by the police will be horrible, and is very often described as worse than the assault.

A first-person account: Breaking the stereotype of Rape; not always the lurking stranger

I've wanted to post this link for a while, and it may already be in a babble thread somewhere, but it's an excellent article for men to read. Please note her overly sarcastic tone in assuring the (male) reader that he is one of the "good ones". I find it funny in an ironic way.

Shroedinger's Rapist

I think that men who rape women they know, women who trust them as friends, do so because they are in denial about their true status as rapists.   The sad reality is that rapists are everywhere in our society.  I've come across more than a few, fortunately they weren't terribly bright and their intentions obvious.

As long as men insist on having power over they will never comprehend the truth of this discussion, I find the argument "but really I am a good guy", a clear example on insisting on having power over the discussion, this is offensive and is a kind of rape, a kind of disempowering, a request for us to modify our views to include that.  We already know there are decent men but the saddest thing of all is when even the decent ones don't get it.

What is especially tragic following a rape is the attitude of some mothers.  It is horrific enough to be raped and then 'raped' by the police but then to have your own mother call YOU a "slut" or even if a mother simply does not believe her daughter.  This is a double betrayal.  To put the blame back on the woman who has been terrorized by a criminal is abominable.  That some men minimize rape and refuse to call it what it is: a monstrous criminal act of violence is also shameless and disgusting beyond words.  My heart always goes out to the child, young girl or woman who gets it from ALL directions.  However, there are some successes even in the 'injustice' system (certainly not a JUSTICE system).  Some women do fight it all the way with a good lawyer if they can afford one and they DO manage to get the perp behind bars where he belongs. 

Having said this, I know of one woman who was snatched on a bright sunny day, in the middle of a downtown street, shoved into a car at knifepoint and brought to a wooded area where she was raped.  The woman had been on her way to meet her young son to walk him home from school.  She was far from a wealthy woman but did manage to get the s.o.b. to spend years in jail.  Through extensive therapy with an excellent female psychologist, she eventually learned to live a normal life again.  Who wouldn't become 'paranoid' after such an incident?  She lived in terror of being apprehended again in broad daylight.  However, he wasn't in jail long enough for her and all of us who knew about this situation.  When he came out he swore he would "get her"!!!!  Again, she was terrifed for herself and her children.  Fortunately, the perp didn't come after her again.  Guess he didn't like jailtime.  It does truly make one wonder about the judges who let these people off the hook completely or don't give them enough jail time.  Restraining Orders just don't cut it.  They have proven to be ineffective in numerous cases. 

It is good to finally observe women on the forum taking their power and not leaking it away to the men.  One such person actually said that it would be "more than amazing" if the men were to come in on the feminist thread to discuss their own stuff.  This is AFTER integrity's post!!!!!  OMG!  or WTF!!!!!!!!!!

REMIND:  You said it and you said it well!!  It was discouraging to witness all that giving-away-of power, esp. as I said in last post that one such woman said it would be "beyond amazing" to have men on the thread discuss rape, etc.....  Gimme a break!  I was beginning to feel "What planet am I on"?  We want to move forward not backward.  Some of the male comments, those minimizing rape and excusing it, were outrageous and some women were colluding with that. 

Ennir spot on, thank you.

bstar, I have  heard of those instances, but I have to live with the opposite.

Not understanding what happened to us women after we report our rape, as I did not, and had felt I should have for decades, I insisted that my daughter did.

Anyhow, inadvertently, I victimized my daughter further by trying to do the correct thing, or what I thought was. And believe me, standing there while an RCMP officer swabbed her for DNA traces, while she screamed in pain, taught me a huge lesson, and it is a memory that will never fade. She was angry with me for a long time, and to this day I am so very sorry (putting it mildly) for forcing her to be "raped" again.

Side note is she was at a Wake, when she was drugged and raped.

ahhhhhhhhh

the old Babble trick, where you ask people what they think about a complex question and anyone who fails to contribute simplistic answers that perhaps fall outside of certain "progressive" or leftist boxes gets labelled a "troll" or bounced

not a chance...

Just dropping by the feminist forum to offer a little oppression are you?  lol

no...im a total pussy, i assure you, ennir...i was going to relate an interesting anecdotal piece of info someone i know who had been raped told me once...then i remembered where i was posting...  LOL!

Thanks remind.  I am so sorry to hear of what happened to you and your daughter.

Remind,  thanks for bringing what I said on the other thread to this one.  I am new to rabble and was horrified by the takeover by the men and by the women who not only refused to address it but actually welcomed it.  I certainly never meant to suggest you needed to word your feelings more neutrally.  I did not want to alienate those who I considered distorted your post. In the process of articulating my own interpretation of your intent, I did not, and do not, want to cater to those who were victimizing you!!!.  If anything I think the women on these threads could be more direct and forthright when ventilating about traumatic personal experiences and the rape culture.  I would never want you or other women to be silenced or caged by the suggestion that their language should be more ladylike, as the patriarchs constantly urge.

As for your daughter, she is lucky to have you as a mother.  Too bad for both of you that your daughter was raped again, so to speak, in trying to do the right thing for the right reason.  However you did not victimize her.  THE POLICE DID.

Sadly some women are victimized by the "helpers" they turn to as well as the police.  At one time I sought to have a womens' sexual assault centre rename itself a women's sexual healing centre.  My rationale was that words are powerful and we need womens' healing centres.  There are all too many places where we are assaulted. My voice did not prevail and over the years many volunteers and staff fought with one another. Some clients of the centre experienced harm instead of help from individuals who had their own agendas and their own version of "politically correct" actions to take.

This also happens with some counsellors, psychologists and psychiatrists.  So we must be very careful to protect ourselves from further assault and to support one another in not only surviving this f***ing rape culture but establishing a culture of respect. Each of us must insist on our right and authority to speak for ourselves and God help anyone who tries to tell us we have not been raped or harrassed on those occasions when we most certainly have. It is horrific enough for our bodies to be raped without having our minds played with and our self esteem undermined.

Thanks ennir for your kind words.

Integrity, again thank you, we have to insist on surviving the rape culture, and I believe I have been here for years, but some never stop trying to diminish my right and authority to speak. And they won't either. However, a bonus of their doing this is that they are very successful at indicating "what" they are.

 etd: In respect to being more forthright when venting,  perhaps we cannot expect that, at least any time soon here, as babble is not a safe place, let alone to share forthrightly in any great depth, if I cannot and edit out much, for safety sake, then I am not sure many others can either.

b star, I am the person who suggested that a separate thread could be established by men in the feminism forum. I don't want to derail this discussion, but wanted to note that I don't appreciate your characterization of what I did. Want to understand my motives, just ask me directly. Smears and mindreading really won't help forward this discussion.

Well the shithead MontyCantsin is gone.

Thanks, Catchy!

Writer: The place for men who are 'allies' is on a male-as-allies forum, certainly not a feminist forum.  I have a right to that opinion and I needn't ask you for permission to express that opinion.  I don't care what your motives were, this is after all a FEMINIST FORUM. Men don't need to think all women find it "beyond amazing" to hear their opinions.  It simply isn't "BEYOND AMAZING" that men have their own say within that particular feminist thread.  It is a big, HUGE mistake and an invasion for them to speak out in a feminist forum. Surely there must ONE place where women are allowed to have a voice of their own without having input from men, esp. men who divert from the real issue that concern women.  In this instance, YOU are bullying me, not the other way around.  So cut it out. I am not willing to be your "victim". Go the the men's forum and be amazed - sorry  - "beyond amazed".

Express your opinion. Don't tell me what I'm doing and why. Let my words stand as they are, rather than mangling them. Thanks.

By the way re Monty Cantsin and some others: Don't you just 'love it' when people put an lol after an outrageous input? As if that minimizes the inappropriateness of their comment. What's worse, the women who collude with this but I suppose it is a fact too.  There are those who clearly recognize abuse/inappropriateness and those who do not and/or who refuse to do so. 

REMIND: Referencing your comment to me, (thank you) I assure you I was not advocating that every woman/girl raped ought to report the rape.  I knew a young woman who was raped by her father many times over.  She simply wanted nothing to do with him but her whole life was affected by this trauma.  However, one Christmas (many years later, as an adult) she reluctantly spent time with her extended family and saw dad lying on the floor with his hand between the crotch of the little girl he had on his chest - a grandchild.  She absolutely froze!  She saw that nothing had changed in dad since her own childhood but she also observed that the rest of the family looked away as though nothing whatsoever was happening and they resumed eating their cookies and drinking their tea!  She realized that she HAD to report it although exceptionally reluctant to do so.  Fortunately, she had many connections and daddy ended up in jail where he belonged. There are times when it is beneficial to report and other times when it ain't!  The bastards have got to get their due: JAIL TIME and let's throw away the frigg'in key, esp. when the perps refuse therapy.  And let us ensure that we teach our daughters to defend themselves by learning Judo/Karate and other defensive art forms.  My own dad would say to my sister and I: "Listen girls, if you are accosted, all you have to do is kick the f'er in the balls and I assure you that he will be moaning and you will be running to safety." The cowards always pick on those whom they think cannot defend themselves.  Let us show them otherwise.  I knew a 22 year old beautiful woman who studied Karate in Japan and lived in B.C.  She was much better at it than her boyfriend who admired her skills and enlisted her to assist him in improving his own karate skills.  Their joint-dream was to open a Dojo (Karate school) in another Province.  Believe me, no-one wanted to come close to her in an adversarial situation.  She was a beautiful woman whom men greatly admired for her beauty but they sure as hell did not want to tackle her in any other way.  She exuded entitlement and it was clear that she could defend herself in ANY circumstance.

No bstar did not think you were, and I understand the need in some cases to do so.

A very close friend of mine just finished fighting in court for almost a decade, with civil charges against her father for much the same thing as you recount.

She won and he can never be alone with a child again. too late for some of his granddaughters. he will spend no time in jail though.

Long story and I have recounted bits of it here before, not going to at this minute, but suffice to say, the MCF was not supportive of her, and in fact she sued them and won too.

Yes hooray Monty is gone (but probably reading everything we say to use against us).

I cannot believe you, writer, in your comments to B Star.  There was no "mangling" only a refusing to allow her opinion to be discounted or distorted.  Your words do speak for themselves and B Star was responding to them which surely is allowed on this forum which I am learning is NOT A SAFE place.  Too bad. Let's try to make it one. One way is by calling one another on projections that are inaccurate.  Another is by standing by each other. Another is by NAMING without BLAMING when we see each other losing focus, or strategizing incorrectly, or perceiving inaccurately.

Stargazer, my condolences.  I do know of instances where rape and other forms of domestic violence were properly dealt with by police and crown prosecutors and the perps went to jail. The women were not mistreated.  Unfortunately it is the exception--RARE.  Still, it did help all of us that a few women succeeded in the INJUSTICE system and a few men were held accountable and perhaps a few guys will think twice before raping.

I also know women raped by cops and judges and  male defense lawyers so guess why so many times the victim is blamed and the perps walk free.

It is not only men who must stop the rape culture.  Some women have got to do a better job of protecting ourselves, our daughters/sisters/friends/strangers.  Some women have to stop being apologists for men, enablers, caterers, rescuers.  This is not about blaming, shaming, punishing the perps.  It is about stopping them. It is about holding them accountable for all the many put downs, attitudes and behaviours that contribute to and maintain rape culture.

REMIND: WOW!  Sued the MCF too and WON!  Is this ever heartening.  Of course the MCF can also be a thorn at our side and can victimize on some occasions depending on the particular workers.  There are all too many tales of children who have died because MCF did not protect them which is their job!  Sometimes it takes a whole lot of fortitude to keep on keeping on, doesn't it?  But we must, for our own sake, for the sake of the children.  So many people find it easy to look the other way.  The 'kids' want REAL.  Those who still have a heart and care insist on Real whether young or so-called "old".  Every human being who hasn't lost her/his sensitivity longs for authenticity. 

I have a therapist friend who shared with me a story of a little child who had been sodomized multiple times by friends of parents and one parent repeatedly. The child was further victimized by MCF as was the child's grandmother who was seeking to support the needs of the grandchild.  The child told this therapist: "NOBODY TAKES CARE OF ME".  Grandma (a young grandma here) was the ONLY ONE who did, in fact, truly care.  But MCF would not place the child with her and the child was eventually sent back to the perps!  Heartbreaking story let me tell you. The grandmother was devasted and this decision greatly affected her life. She lost faith in all "systems". REMIND:  Your story is much more uplifting.  Let us focus on the victories without forgetting the defeats.  Perhaps the defeats will motivate us to find a way to increase the number of VICTORIES.

The  bolded portion is so very important, ridicule, belittling, and shoddy putdowns are mental and emotional assault. When other men see and hear  other men doing this they internalize and think things are just dandy fine, when they do so.

Then the behaviour grows/accelerates over time.

bstar, my partner's best friend committed suicide, when his father came back from Asia,  after years of being there with a oil company, as  it triggered his memories of being passed around  to his father's friends and of course his father too was doing  the pedophilia trip. His mother took his father back, after  almost  2 decades had gone by, and he (partners best friend) was dead in less than a year.

I know it feels like this piece has blown over, but I need to intervene in the issue with b star and writer. Before I do I need to say that rape/sexual assault as a "topic" on babble is huge and intense and that no feminist can talk about it purely in the abstract. I'm naming this because we will often go after each other in ways that don't suit the politics or the action that's needed to stand up against sexism, misogyny, woman-hatred and rape culture. Let's please remember this when we disagree with other feminists. 

b star, you deliberately mocked writer's comment in the other thread. Your tone above is condescending and rude. 

writer's response:

So, you two disagree on how men can engage in a feminist discussion on babble about rape culture. Disagreeing is fine. I see the issue as you sarcastically and disrespectfully mischaracterized writer's words. There's room for more than one opinion on the role of men with respect to feminism and men having a pro-woman discussion on rape culture in the feminist forum. writer encouraged 500 Apples to start a new thread. b star thinks this is a waste of time and energy. Again, that's all fine. Extending respect, or ignoring, a position one doesn't agree with works, yes?

This morning after reading this thread, I walked out of the building where I reside and a construction worker (lots of drilling and hammering going on in my building) was wearing a hard hat and black shirt that read: "Shuck Me - Suck Me" and some writing undernearth that!  I didn't even want to go there, to read what was undernearth the "shuck me - suck me"!  I'd read enough. 

As I write, I am hearing on t.v. about Mel Gilson and some asshole lawyer who blames the victim who alledgedly had two of her teeth knocked out by Mel.  The guy (lawyer) was saying that he didn't believe she was holding 'the baby' while Mel hit her - and that it was all a hoax.  At least one guy (a lawyer perhaps or possibly a psychologist] said: "ARE YOU INSAN."  The dispute was all about why it took so long for Mel's wife/ex-wife (a woman who could be his grandaughter) to report the assault.  Naturally, the more decent of the two spoke of battered women's syndrome and stated that this is NOT at all unusual (not to call for awhile) and that it doesn't make the victim a "liar" as some were implying.  Apparently, it generally takes EIGHT TIMES OF ABUSE, frequently, before the victim calls 911. By that time, some are found dead, let's face it.

Thus far, I have read some heart wrenching accounts of what a few of you are saying/revealing on this thread. That it is damn difficult on occasion to get the creeps/criminals behind bars.  But we must!  We must find a way that protects US and sends THEM to jail.  A SAFE way for us and our daughters, and on occasion - our sons- who are abused.  Some young children who are abused never make it to adulthood.  They commit suicide because their lives become so unbearable after being assaulted by ruthless people who have no hearts.  Many, far too many, don't give a damn that some people die because they (the rapist criminals) have invaded children/women's very 'soul'/hearts.  These evil men must be incarcerated so that they do not continue their terror, not only on the people they victimize but on the families, caring friends and all who know and care for the assaulted. The abusers/criminals feel powerful when victimizing a small child or a woman whom they feel cannot defend herself, esp. when they 'get her' from the back.  Cowards is what they are, absolute cowards.  

Maysie:

We are all moderators and I have already indicated that I did not find b star to be "mangling" Writer's words.  Sometimes perception is projection. I am a psychologist with many years of experience in assisting couples to sort out just such dilemmas.  I am also a womens' studies instructor at more than one university (at the graduate as well as undergraduate levels) and an author on feminist issues.  I also teach Constructive Criticism and nonviolent communication. I am a long time peace activist, supported the civil rights movement when it was in its infancy when it was much more dangerous than now to do so. 

If you are going to intervene then do so accurately and neutrally.  Perhaps we need others on this thread to speak up.  I did so when Remind was misinterpreted by Michelle on another thread.

There is nothing rude or mocking or condescending about expressing shock that someone thinks it would be "amazing" to have men come onto a feminist thread to discuss their stuff.  Perhaps Rabble should invite Blair and the Ontario Police to write columns instead of Naomi Klein, Judy Rebick,  Margaret Atwood or Krystalline Krause.

Read b star's posts on other threads as well as this one. This is a woman who thinks clearly, articulates well, supports and respects others when they deserve it.  She also calls a spade a spade. She deserves more respect than you have given her. Writer and others who don't get why it would be anything but "amazing" to invite men to have an entire thread on a feminist forum would do well to reflect upon and rethink their position in light of comments made by all of Remind, b.star and myself.

In an earlier post on this forum you praise a woman you quote in a link and applaud her sarcastic tone.  So you are not even consistent in your stance about sarcasm.  When it suits you, it is funny. 

No wonder men feel they can get away with rape when women turn on the very women who are their strongest voices and try to "moderate" them, silence them.

The men, who are anything but allies who invaded the earlier thread on rape, must be having a good laugh over this latest development. The men who are true allies must be weeping with those of us tired of being chastised for speaking the truth--all the more grievous when it is by "sisters".  Sisterhood is not powerful it is nonexistent and that is the problem.  I amend this as b star, Remind, and many women in Canada feel like sisters.  I am not witnessing a strong sisterhood on Rabble, however.

This is about more than having different opinions. It is about how true dialogue occurs and how education occurs and how conditioning gets dismantled.

Actually, I don't think I misinterpreted anything.  But I see that feminism has a few new owners now, at least in this forum, so I'll leave you to it.  Enjoy!

integrity, thank you very much for your words, and supportive sisterhood, i appreciate it a great deal.

However, i have responded to maysie about this matter in private message, as i respect her a great deal, and wanted to keep our exchange private, as I do not want those very men you speak of, undermining her actions here in the future. And they will, as they have done so before, if given room to do so.

She has fought hard to be respected and listened to, at this forum. As such, I will stand with her, and discuss privately, my thoughts and feelings on what has transpired here at babble today. She deserves no less from me.

"OWNERS" ?  Michelle's comment.  Are we "owners"?  I didn't think we were "Owners" but obviously Michelle felt she was an "Owner" and that was my whole point.  Hello, Maysie?  Did you get that? Michelle who occused someone on this forum of an ATTACK TOWARD A MAN (FALSELY ACCUSED) has now popped her head back in.  Michelle was the person making excuses for the inappropriate men on the feminist forum.  Suddenly, following Maysie's abominal comment: Michelle is back and speaks of OWNERSHIP and that was precisely my point.  We walked in on Michelle's turf.  Michelle's little pond.  NONE OF US ARE "OWNERS".  We all have a voice and our voice counts. Ownership ought not exist in such a forum.  We have enough people who want to claim ownership of our bodies and our minds.  Michelle spoke louder with her comment than I ever could.  This feminist thread is about FREEDOM MICHELLE/MAYSIE, not OWNERSHIP. How crass.

I have been involved for a very long time in empowering women in the city of Toronto and in other cities in Canada.  I have encouraged women from all races to stand up against abuse, rape, violence of every kind.  I have been a co-founder of women's agencies which have protected immigrant women against their abusive husbands, provided legal aid for women of all ages who felt they were being abused by the police, by their boyfriends/husband/fathers/brothers, by the media, by their own children on occasion.  I was "there".  No-one in my lifetime has ever referred to me as "rude" and whatever the hell Maysie called me.  Dare I go there?  Quite the contrary.  I have been an advocate for girls/women raped and abused for a very very long time.  I was also involed in the highest echelons of Canadian Politics and fought for womens' rights at that level.  I spoke with Cabinet Ministers and Deputy Ministers who were my colleagues about these critical issues and through their assistance, I did get some women's shelters/organizations funded when the funding was going down the drain. I have been involved with men/a few women who initiate public policy in Canada and I attended many in-camera seminars internationally on issues of ranging from post-secondary education, native policy, immigrant policy, health-care policy, ethical conduct in the public service, on and on and on.  NO-ONE - not in the "women's movement" nor in the very conservative/so-called liberal public service including the Governor Generals I met ever refered to me as "rude" and whatever else you called me, Maysie!  Hell - spare me here.  This is a first.  And get it Maysie - Michelle has surfaced again and this is no co-incidence.  Michelle is the woman who accused on person on this thread of many FALSE ACCUSATIONS!  (REMIND). And some of us noted: Hmmm - she is gone - disappeared.  But of course - because something MUCH MORE REAL WAS HAPPENING.  So Maysie and Michelle - rejoice - the guys who take a peek - well......unfortunately they see the division.  I have never in my whole life being called the negatibves you have called me and I have worked with newspapers, magazines, certainly many women's groups as a co-founder of some of the best organazations/agencies in this country - and in the highest ranks of canadian politics. YOU take the prize to call it as it is NOT!  SHAME ON YOU.  Hell - the guys are beginning to look better and that hurts because there have been so many abominable comments made by many of them where you, Maysie, have kept SILENT.  And...you pick on me!  It ain't fair.  I ask you to look at yourself, Maysie. Maysie. I have received numerous personal emails following your inappropriate accusations and they come from all walks of canadian/american men and women.  EXAMINE YOURSELF MAYSIE. I deserve an apology and to be welcomed to this forum.

If you expect absolute consistency and neutrality, then I will never be the moderator you need me to be. Which just means you can join an entire unofficial club of babblers who feel the same way, and more, about the flaws and limits to my moderating skills and abilities. Please enjoy the meetings, I hear they have cookies.

I can't catch everything that happens on babble, Catchfire can't either. I may not address an issue in the manner in which you feel it needs to be addressed. This is going to remain a truth. My goal is to be true to my politics, being aware of where they overlap with babble's and rabble's politics, and be as fair as possible, knowing that I am, after all, a human with limitations. You may not know this but Catchfire and I get paid 4 hours a week to moderate. That's not an excuse, merely giving some context.

I won't list my feminist creds. I'm gone on about them enough on babble in the past.

But I will say that the feminism of the 70s and 80s is no longer what feminism is today. Now the space taken up unapologetically with multiple voices, which don't always agree. This is the feminism I support. Intersectionality. Anti-oppression. Inclusive of class oppression, pro-sex worker, anti-racist. Etcetera. And yes, some of these feminisms involve engaging men in dialogue. And as I said before, if you don't agree, then don't. I'm not telling you about your feminism, I'm telling you about mine.

And if you have a complaint about my moderation please feel free to contact Kim Elliot at publisher(at)rabble(dot)ca.

b star I was not disrespectful to you in my post #36. I was attempting to show some language you used that I felt was rude, which clearly you don't agree with. I'm okay with disagreeing.

Moderation doesn't mean "we all get along". 

I hope I've addressed the "silent" issue in post #36.

If there's a post that is offensive or inappropriate, please use the flag as offensive button.

And on that note I'm heading to sleep.

Maysie. I thought this could be discussed and worked out directly with the parties involved.    You contact Kim Elliot if you consider her to be neutral. 

There is no "new" feminism and "old" feminism,"my" feminism and "your" feminism. Your ageist attitude is showing.  This is like saying there are "new" principles and morals and truths. We might as well discard Plato, Socrates, and all the sages and mentors who have contributed through the centuries. Ask Naomi Klein if her mother-in-law, Michelle Landsburg, should retire.  For your information, "my" feminism, as you would refer to it, very much includes dialogue with men, welcoming men who are  genuine allies, and supporting men who are toyed with by women or men with a patriarchal mindset. As far as your response re "neutrality" and "accuracy" it skirts the issue.  In this instance, I consider you were neither. You can reflect on this and then 1) maintain your original position and back it up, 2) refuse to be accountable, 3) or,  if you see my point and stop being defensive where there is no attack but only dialogue, apologize to b star and we all move forward united instead of divided.

Michelle, at least three people feel you misinterpreted what Remind said on the other thread. Does this not warrant some open reflection of your impact if not your intent? The comments to Maysie apply to you as well. I must say I resent the "owner" comment and flag it as offensive.

Thanks for your input Remind. I understand not wanting to give ammunition to the guys but keeping your communication to Maysie private will hardly have b star feeling safe.

On to other threads where some bros and sisters tell it like it is and get supported instead of turned on

Not really into guilt trips...

But I will state; I support bstar 100%, just as I do yourself...and love to hear both your words here.

However, I have an actual relationship with maysie, we have cried together, fought together back to back, laughed our asses off together, and we have had many a disagreement between us. Over the years.

The same holds true with writer, they are 2 women I respect whole heartedly. Even if we disagree, or even if they are not there when I think they should be...we are grown women, well able to care for ourselves.

Part of the care that I  am taking for myself, is my right to speak privately with maysie, about activities effecting me, and what has transpired here.

Part of the care I am willing to give her, is the public respect I believe she is due, over years of existing with her in a community.

If you have issues, I believe, knowing this community as I do, it is not a forum BTW, they should be taken to the publisher, and/or privately to maysie, if you do not wish to engage kim. If you believe action is required after that, then alternative actions can be undertaken. This  further action too could be discussed with the publisher, if it was ever needed.

Personally believe babble needs a shake up, in respect to the ever present sexism, it is getting  gag worthy, and I would love you 2 to stay around and tackle it with us, but, I am not going to do so at maysie's expense.

De-flouncing to say, ya, what remind just said.  Spectacular resume aside integrity, your credentials as a feminist and an activist do not give you the right to come into the babble feminist forum and shit all over maysie for doing her job to the very best of her ability. 

hey ya, polly I just want to  say hi, and apologize for not contacting ya, I have thought bout you  several times a week and have been going to pm you but didn't, as by the time I got to the comp, it was gone.

Stilll having bad short term memory problems on occasion, have to make post it notes, and set timers, just to function some days. And ya I am going to keep that public, even though I know it WILL be used against me. Cause I am sick of the male bullying here, and they need to be called on it.

Please do stay de-flounced.... I have missed you. Lots.

Thanks remind.  No worries on the pm, I wouldn't have got them, when I stomped out I was pretty careful to totally scramble things so I couldn't come back (explaining the extra letters on the name).

And I am totally behind you on the male bullying, just can't buy into the rest of it  

Thank you Remind:  I do appreciate all that you have stated.  You know, I have shed many tears today and it isn't over anything the 'guys' have said, it is over what a "sister" has said and that breaks my heart.  I have posted on rabble and got support from some of the men and they seem like brothers compared to what I have received from Maysie.  It took me so many, many years to open up, to speak up.  So many times I was told to zip up from the Catholic upbringing I suffered, from some of the men I felt I was forced to endure in the workplace, etc...  I finally learned that I wasn't going to shut up any longer.  It took far too long.  For integrity to be told in no uncertain words to move over: the younger are here!  Well..know what?  I am not "old" and that admotion was outrageous.  May you move on to 100 percent of the support you deserve Remind.  Because people have cried together doesn't mean that all is o.k.  Many of my non-feminist sisters have cried with me and I now have more respect for them than the so-called "feminists" on some posts.  There is more to 'support' than crying together and laughing together.  Today, I cried louder and more than I have over anyone for a long time.  I know there is a "bro-hood" but the sister-hood is so much more divided and the bros know this well.  I have made more connections with the bros on rabble than I have with some of the women and that pains me to the core.  I do acknowledge you, Remind, and I can see the effort you are making and I am comforted by that.  What Maysie has called me is simply not true.  She has depicted me falsely and it has hurt big time. 

I move on to a venue where I feel I am respected.  The comment re integrity is ageist as integrity so eloquently pointed out.  Wow.  This is huge and hopefully Maysie will look at that very carefully.  If she chooses to ignore it - so be it.  I move on.  It is sad - not for me but for her.  However, again, I do thank you and I wish for you 100 percent support because from what I have heard of you thus far - you truly deserve that.  Whew - what a day.  Never thought the tears would be shed over a woman calling me those outrageous adjectives.  I don't deserve it.  I have fought so hard all my life even as a twenty year old for the rights of women.  I stuck my neck out and risked a whole career so that women would be paid what they deserved, so that women would be respected in so many avenues.  Wow!  I feel breathless.  But I will get my breath back and the tears I have shed over Maysie's remarks will make me even stronger.  I do know that.  I won't even spell-check this post.  Pls. bear with me.  Further, I don't think integrity "shat" all over Maysie. Polly bee is way outa line.  Integrity had shed light on so much and supported women on this thread and others.  Polly bee is what Maysie has attracted - not integrity.  The abuse goes on and it isn't about integrity who truly has integrity. 

I love to be told I lack integrity.

I am not shitting over anyone. I am giving Maysie feedback to assist her to do her job even better yet with full appreciation of whatever she may have done to date.

Remind, I support you as much as friends and family I have cried with, fought with and laughed with.  I support you on the merits of what you say. I also support writer, stargazer, b star, etc.  I suppor tMichelle and Masie though they don't get it.  My best friends, the most treasured, are the ones with the courage to tell me what may be hard forme to hear.  If they are correct, I do a course correction.  If they are not, I seek to persuade them.  Usually we arrive at an eventual agreement. If not we let go with respect.  I ask for, and offer, nothing less andnothing more on this forum.

I am not in the habit of trotting out credentials.  I am as interested in the stories of EVERY WOMAN (which includesMAN)who is committed to overcoming conditioning. I felt I had to trot  credentials out to get some respect and credibility re my observations which were being ignored.  This is unfortunate. I do not exclude anyone sincere and I do not intend to be excluded or stand by in silence when I see a reprimand given where it was not warranted in my opinion.

I abhor guilt tripping and was not seeking to guilt trip Remind. I was imagining what b star might be feeling, as I imagined what you, Remind, were feeling.  I check my perceptions with each of you and every other person I comminicate with. Sometimes I am accurate. Sometimes I misperceive and am more than willing to admit it and give thanks for being corrected.  I do not thank those who correct me or others when WE ARE NOT INCORRECT.  That would be akin to accepting some magistrate's decision on whether a rape or assault occured.

As for going to the publisher, let the publisher do her own monitoring.  I have many venues where I am not ganged up upon.  Why stay where only two  contributors show me respect while claiming that they are the disrespected ones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks b star for your openness and the reciprocal support.  I will look for comments by you and Remind elsewhere on Rabble.

Polly Bee

I think b star was speaking to me or of me. I do not think she meant you lack integrity.  You would have to ask her if she ever returns to this thread.  Given how she was treated, that may not occur.

Yes, I agree bstar, that was a ageist comment  by maysie, and she knows better.

And I fully expect public apology will be given, when she reads it in the light it was received by us.

Also, note I never said all was good, just that I was being private about what I had to say to maysie, at this point.

Would ask you not to leave, as your voices and presence are needed, greatly. But if you must, you must.

Please do drop a note to Kim, about your feelings, as women across Canada are going mobile in a big way, from what I can see,  and I believe rabble/babble would like to be on the correct side of herstories.

 etd: i rarely spell check, am just uncaring about it, if i see it after the fact i may correct, but usually  won't bother.

anyway polly get them to give you back your name and  status....they have the means to do so. :D

did ya hear what happened here this week end?

Thank you. REMIND.  If you feel as you do, then perhaps you will go to Kim yourself.  I won't do it.  I have dealt with it with Maysie herself.  That is how I deal with the 'situation'.  Again, I do appreciate your feedback more than you know.  It did assist to keep some kind of balance.  I feel very chagrined that integrity was exposed to such 'assaults' because she didn't deserve it either.  I don't think integrity's ideas are "old" anymore than I think Michelle Lansberg's ideas are "old" either.  I remember so well my friend June Callwood who wrote to me before she died "Why do people call people like me "Senior"?  Do they refer to younger people as "junior".  Hell - just call me a "seasoned citizen". She was much more advanced in years than I but she was tired and wanted a rest.  She'd fought the battles for so long throughout her life.  I am not glorifying June but I miss her.  She would have been sad over this 'event'.  She was falsely accused of being "racist" and she never got over it.  It hurt her to the core.  There are some hurts that are not easily undone or mended.  I have younger 'sisters' who understand this too.  Hurt is hurt is hurt.  When one is falsely accused, one knows it isn't true but it still hurts.  We have been hurt enough, we do not need to hurt eachother.

Agree with your last sentence, and that is very hard to do, for  most all of us, however, your words did hurt Polly, so you can see how easy it is to hurt a sister, who is not deserving of it.

Anyhow am going to bed now, and I hope you both will stick around and make yourselves at home, again your words are needed.

Remind: I hurt Polly Bee?  Hello? She accused integrity of "shit"-ing all over Maysie.  Duh?  I don't think so.  So who is hurting whom here?  Further, I didn't say P.B. didn't have any integrity in the first place, I was referring to "integrity" who has posted on this thread. This is becoming more and more insane. And..  Remind - if you look at Maysie's "apology" (some apology) - she said nothing about the ageism.  Rien.  Zilch.  She is off to bed.  Well - night night Mayse - I'm sure you can sleep peacefully.  Most bullies do! What you did was bully in this instance.  However, you are left with yourself and I move on.  Don't need this.  But I sure learned something, I'll tell you that.  Don't mess with the turf.  As Michelle said: "The Owners".  Well enjoy your "ownership", I don't want it.  Never did want it and never will want "Ownership" - it's all yours.

I already suggested in #46 that b star was speaking to me, a contributor withe the code name "Integrity".  If polly felt hurt it had nothing to do with anything b star wrote.

To b.star, I, too shed tears today.  I tell clients that women often leak away anger in tears.  So no more tears for me.  I feel angry and with good cause.  There has been no apology nfrom Maysie rethe ageist statement, or from Polly for falsely accusingme of shitting all over others.

I often tell battered individuals that the first time they are victimss the second time they are volunteers. I will not be volunteering for any more assault, misinterpretation.  Those who felt threatened that their turf had been soiled by newcomers can have it back all to themselves.

So, it's morning.

A reading of my posts at #30 and #36 reveals no name-calling by me.

I characterized b star's words from another thread, that were directed to writer, as "rude". This may have been the wrong word, however, the tone in the meaning of the words were meant to belittle and minimize writer's position, not simply to disagree. Not sure of another word beside "rude" that fits.

My mentioning of the 70s and 80s is about how feminism the movement has changed. This is indisputable. I was a feminist in the 80s, and still am. There are voices heard now, in 2010, and in 2000, and in 1990, that were not heard or given legitimacy in the 1970s and 1980s. This isn't ageist, it's how things have progressed in the feminist movement in Canada/US/North America. Did I say there was nothing of value from the mostly white, middle class and straight voices of feminists from the 70s and 80s? No I did not. Did I call anyone "old"? No I did not.

I find hyperbole interesting. It's also dangerous. So, I'm now an abuser, an attacker, I made b star and integrity cry, I'm threatening, I ganged up on b star and integrity, the list goes on. Quite an accomplishment for the two posts that I wrote in this thread. In fact, of all the mild to harsh critique I've received over the 3 years I was a volunteer moderator, and after becoming a member of the rabble staff team in January of this year, this is up there, worse than some of my most vociferous male detractors, who are probably reading this thread with great glee.

Nonetheless.

b star and integrity, babble needs more feminist voices. This is also indisputable. However, as a moderator, I need to try to ensure that the tone is kept respectful, and with as little "for us or against us" as possible. Both in the feminism forum and outside it. (lol @ me for that one) Whatever any of our credentials are outside of babble, our words here are all we have. 

That said, b star and integrity, you have shown little to no respect for long time babblers and feminists who have simply voiced opinions that disagree with yours. This is not okay, and if you would like to continue as babblers, you will both need to dial it back.

It sounds like you want me to apologize, hat in hand, and beg for forgiveness. Long time babblers will know that I apologize. If I fuck up. Which I've done, many many times here (both fuck up and apologize  ). I don't feel that I fucked up irreparably in my posts at #30 and #36. But again, since there is a determination to be polarized, I doubt there will be an acknowledgement of that.

My caution about the topic of this thread holds. 

I'm going to keep this thread open for a few hours, allow any responses, and then close it. There is a toxicity here that I find very disturbing. 

Me too. Though I'm soooo happy to see polly bee has returned.

Oh.  Okay, I see now what you mean about b stars post.  She meant that maysie attracted types like me, (and this was unfortunate), not types like you.  I feel much better.

And please don't expect an apology from me for standing up for Maysie.  I would do it again, exactly the same way.

Okay, it's been 4 hours since the last post here.

Closing.