Feminist viewpoints on prostitution and sex work Volume 3

poligamy?that's a stretch......

remind, under decrim in new zealand there was no big rush of women entering sex work...this is just more scare tactics....

Along with your increasing numbers of deaths of prostitutes, susan is the reality, more and more women have been forced into it because of poverty and addictions.

Not trying to scare anyone, I am stating reality, there are more protsitutes today than there was  40 years ago.

And was actually reading something somewhere a couple of days ago, about married men who have repeated purchased access to the same, 1 or more women,  is no different than poligamy,  and it carries less social stigma. Made a lot of sense to me actually, on a variety of levels.

You know that you have deliberately misrepresented and misinterpreted these stats, in spite of the basis for them being directly linked to the laws under discussion for decriminalization.   No or fewer deaths before they were instated, and significantly higher every year afterwards, in fact I see big jumps every time some neighbourhood group spoke up and police came in to get the SWs to move along.   I can only imagine what the latest "move along" tactic to the high end girls downtown is going to do to spike the numbers again.

It is a fact that when neighbourhoods complain, the streetwalkers have to go to largely industrial areas to ply their trade so there are no complaints. This of course, leads to greater violence against them since the violent feel there is less chance of being caught or interrupted.

Then, as I understand the terms, you are seeking legalization, not decriminalization.

Yes, my plans would include better supports to women and children so as to minimize the numbers who need to make their living through sex. As I said elsewhere, once that was done, then we could have a valid converation about freedom to choose. I have just been having a conversation about how we respond to the weakest among us (in this context, I mean the many women and children who are trapped, abused, repeatedly raped, isolated, and trafficked, which as I understand it is many of the women who get paid to have sex). Is promoting an industry the best we can do to foster women's equality in these circumstances?

I realize that you have stated the intention to remove these kinds of situations from the legalized trade. However, given that it seems to happen, regardless of whether there's a completely criminalized, a partially decriminalized or a completely legalized industry in place, what then? Since the argument for decrim/legalization is that men will buy the sexual services anyway so we might as well accept that, make it not against the law and structure the industry accordingly, how does it not follow that, since men will buy the services of women and girls in the black market industry anyway, we should decriminalize the whole industry?

There's a line you want to have drawn, susan, and I'm glad to hear it. However, some of us doubt that moving the line that already exists will help many of the women and girls already in the shadows. Some also wonder how moving the line (since we all recognize that the line won't be eliminated) fosters equality for all women.

no,, i support decriminalization which in spite of people trying to confuse the issue, doe not mean a free for all with no rules.

legalization implies that some criminal code provisions will remain. we want to be taken out of the criminal code and to not be treated like criminals for our choice in occupation.

decriminalization in new zealand came with rules and regulations in the form of health and labour standards.

yes, we should decriminalize the whole industry. trafficking, kidnapping, extortion, rape, assault, child exploitation are all illegal already. if a business owners is engaging in these criminal activities they should face the full force of the law.

how will we discover dangerous conditions? through out reach and education. also through safety inspections. these bad business owners will still have to advertise, it should be the job of sex industry inspectors to audit numbers of businesses and to compare those to phone numbers and ads. it will very quickly become clear if some one is operating outside of the accepted standards and they can be delt with appropriately- jail, execution....i would bring back the death penalty for the exploiters of children....

our planned sex industry working group/review boards can work to define the role and resposibilities of inspectors and  it can be refined as time goes on.

yes, it will not all be smooth. no it will not be easy.but this is the hard work required if we are affect meaningful change for canadian sex workers. we need system wide reform in terms of barriers to supports and to be removed from the criminal code.

we are not criminals we are workers and deserve our rights as such.

OK, let's look at the terms vis a vis marijuana. When people talk about decriminalization, they are talking about decriminalizing the actions of possession and using -- taking those actions out of the criminal code. Legalization would be to do that and then impose a regulatory structure around possession and using, similar to those around the use of alcohol. That's how I understand the terms.

Existing legal work sites don't receive adequate inspection and enforcement around safety, working conditions and fair treatment of workers. I doubt that this will work in practice and the material from NZ seems to verify that.

Not that I agree with exploitation of children but this is scary.

Yes, I can understand your concern being change for canadian sex workers. However, again, my questions, from someone concerned about equality for all women, is this the only goal? Many of us see a change of this magnitude (aside from decriminalizing those who sell sex for money) as something which will affect all of us. Is it for the better or worse, etc?

At this point, regardless of anyone's desire that it was otherwise, the assertion that you're not criminals that has yet to be established when it comes to arranging to sell sex for money.

prostitution is leagl...we are not criminals. it is well estabilished.we are just treated as such through the use of all the "other"provisions in the criminal code.

we are not talking about pot, we are talking about people. the materialfrom NZ speaks very plainly abot the PRA and scrutiny of business owners.

qiote frankly, this entire argument about it diminishing all women is ridiculous. if you raise the value of one group of women, you raise the value of all women. to continue to seperate us as if we are different or less, will only leadto more violence against us.

we are people and we are workers deserving rights and protection.

Would the sex workers aceept civil unions over full decriminalization?  I think some people are worried about changing the definition of prostitution.

i thought we were pushing for unions.....in my perspective decrim demands union building....not sure i understnad what you mean wage zombie......

I understand that you think it's ridiculous and your comment about raising the value of a group of women raising the value of all women is reasonable. I think it's fair to say that most of us who aren't convinced that this will be a good thing for all women wonder if this actually even results in raising the "value of a group of women". Perhaps we're just saying it's OK to create a society where we accept that this is the only option for some women, giving full reign to the market demands of men and embracing the free enterprise system in all its glory.

i understand the principles your position represents and have stated before, they are nobel ideas and goals. however, to jeopardize peoples safety to reach these goals is counter productive.

continue to try to end the sex industry. but stabilize our safety now. we all agree that right here right now the sex industry exists. we must take action to stabilize the safety of people working in the sex industry.

we must give them dignity at work, access to resources,tools to make safe decisions about their work and policies designed to break down barriers to support of the past.we must create ways for workers and consumers to report dangerous conditions, yes consumers. these guys see these places and are a huge asset in trying to combat exploitation. if we criminalize them, how will that happen? we must create more reasonable and accessible licensing procedures, develope exiting supports and specialized counselling for the survivours of violence.

if we really want to do something about dangers facing sex workers, then let's do something. it will not be eradicated over night and we can at least agree on that. so in the mean time why make it hard on people working in the industry?why not make what you have all described as such horrible conditions into at least stabile and accountable? why criinalize it and push it underground?

it seems to me that by shining a light on the industry and opening it up under decriminaliztion woulld serve both our purposes. we ccould begin to elminate dangerous work environments and weed out criminals and continue to work on building a society where sex work indeed IS only done out of choice(not because of poverty,etc) or perhaps is no longer needed at all.

If these laws change and a whole legalized industry is created, the needed change will never come about. In my view, we will all be worse off for it, in my opinion.

but your view is from outside of the industry. you will not be personally affected if our icomes are undermined by criminalization of our customers and the businesses where we work.

if you read the charter challenge testimony, and i have. all sides are in agreement that the current legal framework is not working. that is the only matter for the court to decide. arethe laws doing what they were intended to do, protect people? the answer is clearly no, from all sides.

the current legal frame work will fall and we will have to decide what will be implmented in its place, so far it's between new zealand and sweden. sweden are already reviewing their decision as is described in a link i provided in the sex worker rights forum.

new zealand has seen many benefits from decriminalizing sex work. we support the industry standards and decriminalization model becuse it supports greater choices for workers.

Some things I read here seem to make it look less like the choice to do sex work (rather than, say, cleaning houses or looking after other people's children instead of one's own), and more like taking something away from men.  I would like to think that grownup women can make their own sexual decisions about their own bodies, without worrying about whether or not their choice to do so is somehow anti-female, if you know what I mean.  To some extent, it seems more important that men not be happy than that women are not doing sex work.  It would be okay if she does sex work, in other words, so long as it does not make any man happy?   Sex workers who are women, perhaps, providing services solely for women may be ok?  Just as long as no men are involved?  Or if they are, perhaps only if men-to-men is okay.    Similar to supporting full custody only for mothers, regardless if they are the best caregiver but solely in order to "punish" the man for being male. 

See, it doesn't matter to the law if the woman sees only women, or the men see only men.  The public solicitation, the brothel, etc still apply.

It does seem fairly comprehensive to me, actually:

The OSH guidelines are pretty comprehensive:

A sex worker is “at work” for the purposes of OSH when they are providing sexual services. There are Occupational Safety and Health guidelines have been developed by OSH in consultation with NZPC, sex workers and brothel operators. These guidelines are available from the OSH website.

Sex Industry - A Guide to Occupational Health and Safety in the New Zealand

WARNING THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS SEXUALLY EXPLICIT MATERIAL

During the passage of the Prostitution Reform Bill a majority of the Justice and Electoral Select Committee members recommended that health and safety guidelines should be developed for the sex industry. The Department agreed to this course of action and led the process. The Department consulted with stakeholders, the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective (NZPC), self-employed sex workers, and owner/operators of commercial sex industry establishments. Relevant government agencies such as the Ministry of Health (MoH), Local Government New Zealand, the New Zealand Police, and the ACC were also consulted.

The Guide sets out the relevant health and safety duties that are necessary for owners, operators, employees, and other parties in the sex industry. It aims to provide practical means of achieving those duties by dealing with sex worker health, workplace amenities, and psychosocial factors arising out of the industry. The emphasis is on covering a broad range of relevant topics applicable to all sex workers to assist them to implement best practice in their own workplaces. The Guide is supplemented by fact sheets giving specific advice on topics of importance to the document's users.

Part One: Application of this Guide

Glossary of Terms

• 1: Introduction
• 2: References in this Guide
• 3: Roles and Responsibilities

Part Two: Sex Worker Health

• 4: Sexual Health Education for Sex Workers, their Clients and Management
• 5: Sexual Health Assessment for Sex Workers
• 6: Personal Protective Equipment
• 7: Reproductive Health
• 8: Overuse Disorders

Part Three: Workplace Amenities

• 9: Cleanliness of Workplace Amenities
• 10: First Aid
• 11: Fire Safety
• 12: Heating and Cooling
• 13: Lighting

Part Four: Psychosocial Factors

• 14: Security and Safety from Violence
• 15: Alcohol
• 16: Drugs
• 17: Smoking in the Workplace
• 18: Complaints
• 19: Employee Participation
• 20: Workplace Documents

Appendices

• 1: Roles of Regulatory Agencies
• 2: Accident Recording and Notification
• 3: New Zealand Prostitutes Collective
• 4: Department of Labour Offices
• 5: Health Agencies

Fact Sheets

• 1: Safety and Security Guidelines for Sex Workers Who Provide Outcall
• 2: Examination of Clients Prior to Provision of Service
• 3: Action to be Taken in the Event of Condom Breakage and Slippage
• 4: Minimum Employment Rights
• 5: Employee Participation Systems
• 6: ACC
• 7: Health and Safety Information Resources
• 8: Smoke-free Resources

An excert from the reports mentioned earlier:

"The PRA has had a marked effect in safeguarding the rights of sex workers. Removing the taint of illegality has empowered sex workers by reducing the opportunity for coercion and exploitation."

The report says many of the perceptions held about the sex industry are based on stereotypes and a lack of information.

Lianne Dalziel said the report shatters several myths with the following findings:

• Coercion is not widespread.
• The links between crime and prostitution are tenuous and the report found no evidence of a specific link between them.
  
• Fewer than 17 per cent said they are working to support drug or alcohol use, although when broken down by sector street-based sex workers are more likely to report needing to pay for drugs or alcohol (45 per cent).

Much of the reporting on the numbers of sex workers and underage involvement in prostitution has been exaggerated.

There is no link in New Zealand between the sex industry and human trafficking.

I read the report myself and while the points you made are there, there are also counter-points to each of them and vice versa. So, we could play this pointless game ad nauseum. This isn't really the crux of my concern anyway but I've already outlined those so we will have to agree to disagree.

In a nutshell, I see anything more than decriminalizing those who have sex for money as moving more deeply into commodification, objectification and marginalization of humanity, most particularly women. While I have heard some arguments that have given me pause to think, I haven't been convinced that it will be otherwise.

so now you are opposed to the swedish model too.....? alomost everyone aggrees that workers must be decriminalized....but you think that removing our criminal status will not help? i am mean save lives, the lives of sex workers. you feel that we should not decrim workers at all as it will be in opposition to your political view...?you do realize people are dying right?

...know, no such thing actually.....statistical numbers of such type stand on their own and can be used in whatever way one one wants to support contentions, or disprove contentions. For example, I could write a master's thesis using those numbers and other known factors to support my contentions as....

..... those numbers can be used equally to support the position that since society has started to focus upon men's leisure time penus pleasure pursuits, more women in prostitution have died at the hands of men. And more women are being raped than ever before...

It is men who are killing and raping women, not the closure of show lounges, or strip clubs, or any policing actions. men are making the choice, for what ever reason to kill/rape women as part of their sexual "pleasure" pursuits.

Equally as true, over the course of my life I have watched more and more women and girls enter into prostitution because of poverty and addictions...sure there  is obviously some who have also entered prostitution by choice, since society started to focus on men's penus pleasure, but that does not take away the reality more have entered  though lack of choice.

You know, all arguments are lost as soon as someone mentions "men's penis pleasures" or "selling your vagina". I mean come on. This isn't solely about men. It is about women (or at least I thought so) but I can see that these arguments always come down to men's "penis pleasures" and that is shallow and short-sighted and does sfa to help workers NOW, as in real life.

You can wait for utopia all your life, leaving it as is (status quo) or criminalzing workers is not going to help any of these women.

I noticed remind, after all your talk of "genital access" you never once looked at the actual definition of prostitution, which is in the decrim thread prior to this.

So what are your solutions, short of ending men's "penis pleasures"? Any at all? Any that would apply NOW, in the real world?

Have any of you thought how this effects male sex workers? Massage parlours? Strip joints? Since from what I gather you're all for abolution, please tell me how you think sex work will magically disappear?

Pornography is free, it's an issue, and it influences some men to treat women as recepticles. Massage parlours (or rub and tugs) treat foreign workers sometimes like pure crap. Then swingers clubs? No word on them? That's full genital contact there. You think all women wish to be dragged to orgy's with strangers against their will, to please their men? Why not focus on this too. Hell, just state that the only sex a woman can have is between a man and a woman with no exchange of money, gifts, status, power, etc. should be the only sex women can have. After the sex workers, are you all going to go after porn?

I'm not sure I want you guys dictating how and when I get to use my lady parts. Or anyone else's.

Most assuredly I agree...

and would ask this moving deeply into commodification, objectification, and marginalization, all of which is violence against women, benefits whom?

moreover, you know what really fascinates me, in all of this?

We are in the midst of an environmental castrophe, and economic meltdown, violence against women is increasing, but yet men still want to be able to have unregulated ejaculation responses whenever and wherever they want, and they want to be able to make money off  of their wanting to do that too...

they.....?i am right here. i do make money from sex work.
quick, let's round up all the sex workers, it's their fault the environment is in a mess, and us poverty stricken, abused, drug addicted people( as described by you both) are also responsible for the economic crisis!!!!
 we are also the cause of violence against women!!!some body burn these witches, i mean sex workers, i mean coitis sellers, i mean vagina sales people, i mean unregualted ejaculation responses profiteer...penis exploiters must die, disappear, be gotten rid of.....
you people are really showing your true colours. neither of you ever even supported the swedish model. you want to end our industry and play osterich as if the sex industry and poverty will magically evaporate.
i guess since the title of the thread is feminist view points on prostitution and sex work, these sorts of things are ok to say. i have to say i find it very enlightening to hear your true wishes in regard to the sex industry.it demonstrates why you seem to have an unrelenting desire to try to debunk everything put forth here by supporters of decrim and really had no plans for implementation of the swedish model. deep down you just want us gone.
it's along way from how you felt in this thread.....is it me?did i offend or upset you soem how to make you do a complete trun around?
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/labour-and-consumption/sex-industry-association
back then you supported some of our ideas.....

No....men are the cause of violence against women, I have been very clear about that......

it is also primarily men that benefit from this focus on their genitals

so all in all, I  have absolutely no blame for prostitutues

prostitutes and trafficked of course have no choice  in being exploited by men, so  it would be an attack upon me to indicate that I believe they  should be blamed for their plight, as nothing about me indicates I support human exploitation of any type....

so now you are denying my assertion of being competant to form consent?make a choice...?or is it only trafficking victims and prostituted people who deserve the choice, and even then limited only to a choice to exit..../

do you not support choice for women?people?or you only approve of choice if it is a choice you agree with...?

You've brought this up a number of times and i just end up ignoring it but i gotta say it sounds so ridiculous.

I am a man and i certainly don't want anyone trying to control or regulate my ejaculatory responses.  I don't need a woman or a man around to have these ejaculatory responses, and i certainly don't need to pay a sex worker to bring me to ejaculation.  As long as my body holds up, i will view masterbation as a right and a personal choice.

Please don't tell me you're planning on regulating my masterbation.

If, on the other hand, that's not what you're intending to say, well, the language you're using is pretty over the top.

Edited to Add: I shouldn't have used the word ridiculous.  What i'm trying to say is, do you want to be talking about prostituion or do you want to be talking about male ejaculations needing regulation?

No, just wants regulation of the bio-hazardous waste outcome of it.    Do your best to be an eco-friendly masterbator, use no pronographic materials, select your fantasy wisely and with respect, or better yet, use no female images at all, and you'll be OK.

I think there are a few things that need to get added to the social security net for women (whether one believes in the Swedish Model of prostitution law or decriminalization) in order to see less women and children entering the sex industry for survival. 

We need to seriously consider the state of our systems for children in government care. 

We need to lobby our governmental leaders for accessible legal aid for women.

We need to lobby our governmental leaders to reinstate funding to counseling services, mental health services, addiction services, programming for people who are disabled etc. and acknowledge that lack of funding to social services for our most vulnerable leaves a very dangerous vacuum. 

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but just some examples.

Does anyone else feel that the argument of choice will be stagnant until we can look practically at the different systems that hold women, children, and certain ethnic groups at higher risk of performing survival-sex? 

I feel helpless reading these forums as someone who lives in BC as we continue to elect leaders that tell us (by where they allocate funding) that they believe our provinces most vulnerable people are disposable. 

Fortunate, 

I have to disagree with the idea that radical feminists are more concerned about making men unhappy than protecting the collective rights of women. 

There is a focus on male demand for paid sex within radical feminist ideologies on pornography and prostitution, yes. Radical feminists who advocate for the Swedish Model of Prostitution law are asking men to look at how the demand for paid sex fuels a global industry where the average "worker" enters at least four years before they are deemed eligible to consent to do so, where women of certain ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds are vastly overrepresented, where women in general are vastly overrepresented (has anyone wondered why, if the sex industry is really a gender-equal zone, more men aren't selling and more women aren't buying?). If anyone wants links, they can personally volunteer to teach me, the computer illiterate, how to post them. 

Abolitionists are not asking men to be miserable, they're asking them to be responsible. 

Agreed, though I wonder how/where 'radical feminists' are asking men to look at these things, and if there are enough resources for them to do so? And if proper publicity of these details are being suppresed somehow? Being in the target demographic myself, if I had not been fortunate enough to have been exposed to these issues by some of my female friends, I seriously doubt that I would have an appropriate understanding of these topics simply from floating around in my little bubble world with the rest of my demographic.

As I see it, yes, male decisions and male behaviour are the roots of these problems, however that isn't to say we are all enemies in this battle. In fact, I would say that properly informed men could be great allies for affecting change, and men should be strongly encouraged to be educated about how their behaviour affects women. I realize this could be difficult to accomplish, and I'm not smart enough to have a particular solution, but the fact is, most men aren't sadistic, we're mostly ignorant. And really, it shouldn't start with men, it should start with boys. As a society we need to raise our sons to have deep respect for women and their bodies before they grow up to be men, because if they haven't, they aren't properly grown up anyway.

Essentially, I don't think enough of the audience is hearing the request quoted above, and perhaps new and more radical approaches will need to be explored to accomplish this.

No one mentioned Religion yet, but I will. (I am an atheist/ humanist male)
I reject all that says women shall be submissive to men.

More compulsory credits for "Gender Relations"(a suggestion).

And tell religious fanatics to shut up.

A couple of comments:

fortunate, you're really skating on thin ice here.  This forum is for feminist discussion.  This issue came up with you in another thread too.  You're not allowed to accuse other participants of hating men, "punishing men for being male" or of having ulterior motives such as denying men all pleasure and stuff like that.

You will not post in this thread again.  And if you post anti-feminist stereotypes or rhetoric in any other thread on babble, you will be suspended from posting on babble entirely.

Susan, this:

is over the top and unnecessary.  No one has advocated burning witches or sex workers.  And I think you might have misunderstood and misinterpreted Loretta's post regarding the Swedish model.  No one has said they want sex workers to die or disappear.

And there's nothing wrong with feminists who dislike the sex trade industry on feminist grounds to want the INDUSTRY (not the workers) to be put out of business.  I agree with you that it's not likely to happen, but there are real feminist critiques to be made of selling sex and commodifying women's bodies.  And people are allowed to make those arguments on babble without being accused of wanting to kill sex workers, a position no one has taken.

Please try to see what people are saying instead of pinning motives and positions to people that they have not taken.

If the auto industry had gone out of business, so would autoworkers, necessarily.

Just curious, but what's the plan for putting the industry out of business, but NOT the workers?

Sorry, I didn't word that well.  Just because you think an industry is problematic and you want to see it gone, doesn't mean that you want the workers to "disappear" or "die" or never find work again.

And there's a difference between putting forth the argument that if you want to outlaw the sex trade that workers will die as a result of being forced underground and not being able to get the help they need, and putting forth the argument that if you want to outlaw the sex trade, it means you WANT people to die as a result.

Nobody here wants to kill sex workers or see them die.  There is disagreement about the best way to ensure safety.  There is also a disagreement about the value of the industry.  Both are legitimate areas of debate.

As I've mentioned before, I wish you'd read what I've written instead of misconstruing it. I have said consistently that I support decriminalizing those who sell sex for money and my comments in post #18 are no different. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Michelle, with all due respect, can you hear and feel the frustration here? There is a very good reason why some people think this is about man hating. Read some of the posts thrown up here by remind, and her focus on male ejaculation, penis pleasure or whatever new thing she is calling it today.On top of that the entire "selling vagina's" etc. Michelle, it is getting old and tired. One cannot have a debate or discussion when it is reduced to male sperm.

I am a feminist and these kinds of words seek to reduce the quality of discussion and have the effect of putting everyone (including me) in defensive mode.

There has to be a balance, and right now there is none. I would be mighty peeved to if every argument I made was counteracted with responses such as "males ejaculatory rights". That isn't debate. That is silencing, marginalizing and insulting.

I am not saying, "hey let's give men priority" because that is not the position I take, but this whole reduction of sex work to male ejacualtion is narrow and not going to get us anywhere.

So ignore remind.  Loretta, G Pie and I have all made arguments that don't reduce the issue to vaginas and ejaculation, for example, while still being on the other side of the debate.

What is it about other than this? By its own reality sex work and prostitution is narrow and specific in function and results....

In otherwords it is a whole industry, illegal and legal, geared towards one thing......and one thing alone.

I am not the first feminist, nor wil I be the last feminist to point this truth out, and indeed is very salient to the issues and parameters.

It is the elephant in the room that some want to ignore and say; "nothing to see here, move along".

Pointing out the bottom line activity under discussion is not silencing, marginalizing, nor insulting, it is indicating facts that underlay this whole discussion.

If some want it to be an industry they need to take it out of sterotypes of all sorts and deal with the reality of the "work place" actions which occur.

That's what I call reclaiming the language. Is it too late to rename the new forum?

Oh yes,  we all understand men need to reclaim so much,  suffering so terribly, and all, from the yoke of oppression  and exploitation the way they are.

It was susan reclaiming the term, not men.

ok michells but try to imagine how all of this demonizing us makes me feel?

imagine if nurses were discussed as puss,urine,blood and excrement profiteers. this type of language being used in regards to my choosen profession and continuing refusals by some members to respect the terms put forth by the group being discussed themselves is a complete insult. nowhere is unregulated ejacualtion responses profiteer a word accepted by sex workers or prostituted people.

and references to sex workers some how being responsible for taking attnetion away from the economic crisis and environmental disaster facing us all as well as being responsible for escalating violence against women because we..."they" profit from the unregulated ejaculation responses is as ridiculous as the means for discovering witches back in the day. it is othering sex workers as the cause the worlds problems and advocates that we some how don't deserve to heard in light of everything else..... last in line, first to get cut.

 the posters in question claim to support the swedish model which involves decriminalzing us and respecting us as human beings but then continue to belittle and bash us for wanting freedom of choice. the truth should be known that it is not rights for women being sought here, it's the irradication of the sex industry...which is as old as poverty.

getting rid of the industry means getting rid of us...how exactly will that be accomplished?i find it extremely threatening to have to hear my job spoken of this way and to have no clear plan to see it through....no jobs. i feel as if some posters are constantly skating the line, trying to upset me and then pretending as if they care about sex workers/prostituted people.

the dripping sarcasm in these terms is discriminatory, i am not the only person to read them. it sets an example of it being ok to belittle and ridicule our arguements using blatently offensive terms it what should be a discussion about real options, not feelings and opinions which everyone is entitled to but real tangible solutions to these problems.

i have yet to hear any plans from the other side, instead all we hear are statements as above.

i agree with this 100%. did you see our ideas around policy and procedure revisions? it ereally has nothing to with decrim more the failure of thhe systems intended to protect people...

Well, I WAS tempted to start a new word association thread with the first phrase being "Unregulated ejaculation responses" in the writers' forum, just to see what kind of free association people could come up with...

For instance, would a wet dream count as an unregulated ejaculatory response?  How would you go about regulating ejaculation responses anyhow?

A subject for another thread, I guess...

What about the points Susan raises in post #43?

Please give an example

And who used that other than you and snert?

No one said that either other than you......

No one said that either...

No it doesn't, just because the forest  industry is now gone in BC, does not mean the former workers in it  "were gotten rid of"

This actually how the real world works, no one's jobs are secure, and could be gone in a moment, subject to changes in  laws, and supply and demand realities.

Could you give an example of this?

Rework,

Is it really fair to make assumptions about people's religious or spiritual beliefs based on the fact that they think that education of younger generations on issues like equality and respect is imperative? Which set of religious beliefs should we be associating this with? I know many different abolitionists from all sorts of religious backgrounds including secular humanism and atheist.

Rebuttals are most successful and well recieved when the opponent attacks the argument, not when the opponent makes uneducated guesses about what someone's spiritual beliefs might be and then attempts to stigmatize them for it.

Unless someone openly discusses their spirituality and invites others to comment on it, jabs like "tell the religious fanatics to shut up" are discriminatory and should be considered personal attacks. Even if someone did discuss their spiritual beliefs in regards to this issue (which so far no one has), freedom of religion still sits there in the charter of rights along with freedom of expression and freedom of security. 

I can personally testify to the fact that there are people from all sorts of diverse ethnic, cultural, and religious backgrounds that support the Swedish Model of Prostitution Law. I think it's fair to assume that we have no idea where anyone else comes from (especially on an internet forum!!) unless they clearly state so.  

Suzan,

I haven't seen your ideas on policy revisions but I would like to. I have a difficult time keeping up with how frequently people post on this forum so there are things that escape me.

If you have time, feel free to post the link again or send me the link personally and I will read it and let you know what I think. I always appreciate when people send me reading material, particularly when it covers subjects that feminists for the Swedish Model, and feminists for full decriminalization both agree with. I think these areas of common ground are the places where activism will be the most rapidly successful. This is not to say that I think there shouldn't be activism around the points of contention, but it will simply be slower going.

Jmartin, she has posted dozens upon dozens of links and her entire policy on this board a few times. The problem is, no one appears to actually have anything to say in response, or the same things are said over and over again. I know it is hard to wade through all these threads but check the decrim one prior to this one. I think that may be a start. If I could search better (or to be honest if I wasnt feeling so crappy) I would find them for you.

 I was under the impression that there was a specific one she was referring to that had to do with reinstating governmental funding to social services to protect vulnerable people groups. If this is the case, let me know the title and I will do some searching for it in the last thread.  

I am interested in responding to the posts and am certainly willing to wade through the threads if I'm looking for something specific that will promote quality discussion. I am overwhelmed by the pace on these forums, so that should account for my lack of response to previous links and posts. Once I've read one article, the thread is already closed and we're on to a new one.

Stargazer, I relate with your frustration over people repeating the same arguments over and over. Suzan and Stargazer, what social services need to recieve funding in order to make vulnerable people groups less at risk of the sale of sex for survival? I listed a few. If you had the task of completing the list, what would you put on it?  

Jmartin, this thread  covers where my decision was finally concluded from, upon rereading it several times recently, and talking to women, FN and white, elsewhere, and applying it to my life experience, past and current, along with projecting that knowlege into the future.

Though I do not live currently  on Coast Salish territory, my daughter and granddaughter do, in fact they live currently in acknowleged territory, so I must take my direction from the women in those communties, and hear their voices, they are the protectors of my children, and their lived experience must be respected, by me.

Remind,

I agree with your position completely. Thanks for posting it.

I recently attended a forum in which the AWAN presented. The representative requested several things from the audience. Please forgive me if the wording isn't identical, or if I've got my facts wrong. I'm hesitant sometimes to relay information from this group as I don't carry the personal authority of being Aboriginal, and from what I understand, AWAN is a group of women who are very strategic about their presentation and use of language.

1) Write a letter to your MP requesting that an investigation be done into the police complacency in the case of the missing Aboriginal women and children.

2)Consider hosting a family who come to Vancouver to participate in the march for the missing women in February.

I think these things are extremely important things to consider.

Am going to answer this, from my perceptions, in a bit of a round about way....

What I have viewed happening in BC since 2002 in particular, is an increased amount of young women, Firsts Nations and white, in increasing amounts on the streets of Nanaimo, Victoria,  Vancouver, Kelowna, Kamloops and Prince George.  This is direct observations on my part as opposed to the 2 decades prior.

Under Gordon Campbell's government, people are required to have  2 years work, out of the last 10, in order to qualify for income assistance. This has meant that women are the one' most greatly impacted by this rule, and indeed that WoC, especially First Nations  women, are unduly targeted.

Young First Nations women from remote  and impoverished reserves go into the city looking for work and escape. They are not hired in mainstream societal jobs because of racist sterotypes and racism. Now they have no money.....where do they go? They can't get a job to someday perhaps collect welfare as part of the social safey net they are entitled to access, and they cannot collect income assistance either.

They do not get hired in large amounts by the legal sex industry, also because of  entrenched racism, so where do they go...

Everything is rigged against them....they have no choice...

Then we have young white girls over 16, fleeing from home, or being kicked out, who also cannot collect income assisatnce, unless they had worked for 2 years while a teen ager. So they "choose" the so called sex industry too.

Then we have the young mothers, who are fleeing abuse, who most likely have not worked 2 years out of 10 either, they have child support (if they can get it) and child tax credits to live on, each month.

 where do they "choose" to get their money from to feed themselves and their children, if there are no min wage jobs available?

 in my opinion, the first place to start in BC is get the damn 2 year threshhold dropped, and get a significant earnings deductable in place. Meaning one can earn up to x amount additional dollars and still get a full cheque and housing subsidy. It needs to be much larger than it is currently.

and re-enstate wide ranging income assistance funded educational programs, which they could  fund if the  "Job Wave" feeding at the trough actions were abolished

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/sex-worker-rights/policy-and-procedure-manual-revisions

here is where i talk abut systematic reform and how people can begin it in a meaniful and inclusive way.

the above article from AWAN in regards to our rounding up sex workers is the anti brothel campaign i refer to as completely undermining the true intentions of that action by misrepresenting our intentions to the public,government and indeed anyone who would listen as is demonstrated by it's presence here. i have posted my proof of its misrepresentation of our plans for canada's first sex worker cooperative and so will not bother again. it seems to delite some posters to perpetuate these ies as if it some how undermines my reputation. the plans for canada's first sex worker cooperative are posted here for everyone to see and no where in those plans did we ever talk about olympic brothels or rounding workers up to bring them inside.

 www.wccsip.ca [58]

i would appreciate if these claims were not repeatedly thrown in my face in an effort to upset me and undermine the true purpose of the WCCSIP.

if you wish to discuss our plans, please feel free to add your suggestions to the thread dedicated to the coop.

remind, you can play he said she said all day, read what you wrote and so did everyone else. don't pretend to repsect me or my opinion and then behave in a discriminating and belittleing manner and expect me to play school yard with you.

you constantly and consistently belittle me, our plans, sex workers and our work.

Excuse me, what did AWAN lie about according to you susan? Because I have never been quite clear on what exactly it was and if it was about the brothels for 2010, that you wanted, I do not believe it was a lie.

And I have every right to state where I am coming from on this with out being accused of trying to upset you,  for gawd's sake

what?  should I start saying  to you as a point of debate that you are saying what you are saying in order to upset me?

wasn't even in dialogue with you for pete's sake.

People do have rights to their own opinions on this issue

As a former prostitute who is now working on helping women exit the trade (Setting the Captives Free Ministries Inc.), whether they chose to be in it or were trafficked,  I have a lot to say about this. Personally, I have been out of the business for 10 years, after having been in it for 17 years. I worked on the high stroll, low stroll, escort and massage. Currently I am finishing my BA (Grad 2010). I have written a paper on domestic trafficking in Canada, which is published and online at www.cncew.ca (The Canadian National Coalition of Experiential Women, of which I am also a member). Before I began my BA I was a counselor for sex workers at PEERS (Prostitutes Education Empowerment Resource Society) for two years. From this experience I can affirm that the majority of my clients and the other working women I know do not want to be in the business. For most of us it was a matter of survival or a choice made most without fully knowing the consequences thereof.

A good paradigm for considering the consequences of prostitution can be seen through the First Nation Native people's (Indigenous or Aboriginal) medicine wheel concept. There are four quadrants in the wheel which represent the mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical parts of being human.  Our whole being is affected by these four components. In the mental area of the wheel are: self-image, communication, assertiveness, family problems, self criticism, and parenting. In the spiritual area: belief in a creator, sacred ceremonies, ethnic values/morals, restorative healing, and forgiveness. In the emotional area: identity/ express feelings, conflicts/anger, self-esteem, relationships, grief/loss, trust, suicidal thoughts, abuse, and family breakdown. Finally, in the physical area are: health, finances, friends/support system, employment, education, legal, addictions, recreation/hobbies, and sex.

When I looked at the medicine wheel I asked myself, how many of these components are affected by selling sex as a means for living? In my experience, all of them, and not in a positive way! Think about it!!!! Selling your body for sex may seem to be a temporary means to an end (survival) but seldom does anyone get in the business and get out quickly. We end up with post traumatic stress from experiencing bad dates. We experience violence from clients, family and society for being a prostitute. Prostitutes are considered the scum of society or simply an object for a man's sexual release. Men who want prostitution legalized want women to be an open commodity and available for their pleasure. They don't ask or care whether she is happy, healthy, or how old she is.

 As for harm reduction to the women through legalization, I don't believe it will happen. I have been sexually abused at a massage parlor and an escort service, both supposedly 'safe' and 'controlled' environments for prostitution, and so have others. Legalizing prostitution will NOT reduce the risk to women. It will not make this 'work' safe, nor will it give dignity, self esteem, or create a healthy lifestyle for women!!!  I realize that there are several women fighting for legalization of prostitution, but I know that when they have had enough bad dates themselves they too will want out. Please I implore you to contact your politicians and say DO NOT LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION.

Remind,

Thanks for answering my question. I agree that we need to be taking a serious look at our assisted income and welfare standards. Guaranteed livable income for women would reduce the pressure put on women at risk to become involved in the sex industry. 

Susan,

Thanks for reposting the policy revisions thread. I did miss that one entirely and posted some questions and comments I had. It touched on an issue that I've been thinking about for a while: law enforcement. 

Whether Canada adopts the Swedish Model, fully decriminalizes, or keeps the existing legal framework, police have a major part to play in the enforcement of the law. Police complacency is a serious problem in BC as demonstrated by the case of the missing women. 

How do we re-build the relationship between law enforcement officials and women at risk or prostituted women? 

 Perhaps I should not have quoted him directly.
It was not intended as a rebuttal, and I see no opponents here, or assumed anything. Too terse, agreed. (trying to avoid getting off topic)
I agreed with ADueck's statement (and post # 30)
"it shouldn't start with men, it should start with boys" is the line I should have highlighted.

Mens behaviour pops up often enough, but I don't hear anything specific that will  ever change that. I have made suggestions (some may think are odd) to spark debate. Seems it should be the subject of another forum.
Society, culture, and yes, religious education, is all part of it.
Have yet to come across a religion that treats women equally, across the board.
I stand to be corrected.
Are the women here satisfied with what is taught in our schools ?

I have no problem with the religious. I do have a problem with the fanatic religious.
I was told the other day that I'm going to hell because I don't adhere to their version of the bible, stuck in time. morals.

As for the Swedish Model, I object to being criminalized, stigmatized  when I choose to hire a surrogate.

personally, I object to women being racialized, criminalized, stigmatized, objectified, and commodified......

Thank you for your posting StCFM,  especially liked the medicine wheel statements...

remind i posted it a couple times and don't really care that you don't "believe me". it has undermined the true objectives of the coop. we never askedfor olympic brothels, ever or suggested rounding up women into brothels.

welcome to the canadian national coalition of experiential women!!while i do not agree with the sentiments put forth, i respect the CNCEW.

Susan, sorry to do this, but you can't keep posting that people are lying.  Please be careful of what you post here - if you would like to post that on your own web site and open yourself to defamation claims, feel free, but you can't do it here.

You can get your point across by stating that you have a difference of opinion, you have a disagreement on the facts of what happened, that they are incorrect or that they have misrepresented (don't say "intentionally") your views/plans etc.  But you can't keep saying that people are "lying".

I'm going to edit your posts.

!!!

Sorry, triciamarie, but we do that when we feel it's necessary.  Not very often (hardly at all, in fact), but I say so when I do it or I leave tags in the post saying it has been done (e.g. sometimes you'll see [removed by moderator] in the middle of someone's sentence).  We leave as much intact as possible within the post while removing as little as possible.  Her posts are edited now, and you'll see there's hardly any change except that I removed her statement about "lying".

It's always been like that here, and it's not going to change.  As an organization with pretty much no money at all, we take libel seriously and will protect our site from claims.

Some sites just remove whole posts or threads when there's an issue.  We don't do that.

ok, i understand. sorry, it's a sore point for me as it has been going on since 2007. in a meeting yesterday, people seem to be suddenly realizing the impact of security zones on sex workers ability to earn money during the games and that as we've stated all along, sex workers will experience an economic crash during the games. our cooperative was intended to provide alternative income sources for some workers during the games but has been completely undermined by this campaign. now people are discussing food and shelter for sex workers who will be dipslaced, unable to pay rent, unable to pay for drugs, unable to pay for food and unable tp earn money.

what could have been a respectful legacy and provided the means for workers to take part in the cultural olympics and earn money is completely devastated by the misrepresentation of our plans by these groups. i am to say the least disgusted by the plans for our support being put forth in this regard and am terrified to see how it will unfold.

i will definitely keep people updated as to the final outcome of the lack of planning for support of  sex workers during the games. it is fairly typical it seems for our opposition to want to stop any progress forward but to not have any real clear plan asto how to do it their way.

although we never asked for an olympic brothel, the proponents of this misrepresentation of the coop have planned nothing to support sex workers during the games. on top of the anti olympic brothel campaign we have the anti traffickng campaign claiming "big money" for sex workers during the games with numbers like 40,000 women and children being toted as reality....

incidently, for 40,000 women and children to be trafficked in 2 weeks, each athlete, women included would have to have sex with 7 trafficking victims a day...not consentual sex workers, traffcking victims.

as workers migrate here seeking this "big money" promised by these groups all of our incomes are divided as we are depending on local clientel and we are in an economic recession. where are the plans to support these displaced workers to whom "big olympic monies"have been misrepresented? where are the jobs?

already sex workers are beng hustled out of the seymor stroll, one of vancouvers oldest, in order to make room for the american olympic head quarters across from the penthouse. typical business as usual tactics with no consideration for the safety of workers and no clear destination as to where the should "go". the workers on seymour earn high wages, how will they cope with being forced to work in competion with workers who charge $3...?

this situation is a result of misrepresentation of the facts and a lack of any consideration for the workers themselves and how they would be affected.

whether people believe me or not, the facts will become clear. i look forward to reactions from groups invovled in creating the environment that has allowed this to happen.

i would like to hear from these groups as the games unfold and their assertions do not materialize.

Thanks for your understanding, Susan.  I hope my small edits didn't interfere with the main message you were trying to get across.

i don't think it did...i had a pretty good rant above!! i am involved in 3 different committees trying ensure safety and stability during the games for sex workers and let me tell you, it is not going to be pretty. i feel the worst about the joyce/collingwood community in vancouver as that is likely where all of the workers will be displaced to...it is already extremely tense in that community between sex workers and business owners/residents. vigilanti- esque residents"security patrols" are the worst and violence bewteen both sides will likely escalate as a result of the influx of workers fleeing the "security zones".

it's always so frustrating to me to have abolitionists flying up in rage against any actions we propose to stabilize peoples safety when they have no plan as an alternative and really, in my opinion could care less about what happens to workers on the street. if they cared, they would do something or at least have some idea how to achieve their goals with out harming sex workers in the process.......

Susan, again I simply do not get what you are stating here, as your words fluctuate within your own statements here even. You state first you did not want an olympic brothel, but then you state:

which supports the  numerous reports  from 2007 and indeed back up what AWAN's statement was at that time, as linked to above.

Is there a nuance that I am missing, or something, as it seems your own accounts from 2007, match their accounts?

then here you say:

What misrepresentation of facts? Your accounts to the press from then and now, match AWAN's statements that you wanted olympic brothels...

Do you feel, that we should feel for those  "well paid" sex workers who may not be able to "cope" with working along side those First Nations women, who have been so marginalized and exploited that they are forced in prostitution services for 3.00 per john? Personally, I feel for the First Nations women...who have been forced into prostitution, and not so much for those who choose it. Though I am willing to be persuaded that I should feel for those who choose it too...

Would those women who are forced into cut rate 3.00/john rates  be able to access your "co-op" services, as I do not believe they would be.

...so it seems to me  said "co-op" would be setting it up for a few to make money, as you indicate with your use of "some" workers, while leaving the many out in the streets literally.

the coop activities for during the games are "alternative income sources" so not sex work related and not a brothel.they do NOT match it remind ...stop baiting me. we did not ever want olympic brothels, we wanted open a cafe/restaurant as described in our plans as we were anticipating exactly what IS happening.an economic crash for sex workers.

i like how you only value the stability of one group of workers. the risks presented by "trafficking" workers from one stroll to another are well documented and known to put workers at risk. as well as the problems for communties to which such workers are being trafficked by residents and police in order to clean up tin time for the olympics are also clear to see.

a coop by it's very nature does not profit the "few". but keep on going denying the potential of our coop cafe/restaurant to actually adress issues you all raise around exiting, jobs for sex workers, tangible marketable skills, the ability to actually ear money outside of the sex industry.....

worker controled safe work space.the coop is owned by sex workers from the DTES some of whom are first nations people. the safe work site/coop brothel is specifically intended to stabilize workers in the dangerous street level trade, to connect them to resources and ensure they are not killed or tortured while working. security guards, panic buttons a place to wash after seeing a client, access to harm reduction supllies....i resent you constantly trying to cast me as an exclusionist who doesn't care about sex workers on the street. it is a misrepresentation of me and my work.i have never advocated for "rounding up"workers into a vegas style line up in a brothel. we have constantly said we favor the steam bath model of business which a rooms for rent business that we felt would accessible to the greates number of workers from varying working conditions.

you have never worked on the street or been raped in the park because you had no where to take the client that was safe. it you think the men in the trial of the missing women and the torture of women in the DTES could not have been prevented by security, stability and the ability to withdraw consent- ie panic button- you are really missing the point of this initiative.

providing jobs to "some workers" is in reference to the restaurant/cafe...we clearly weren't going to beable to create 15o jobs but at least we tried to do something...anything at all to generate other ways for sex workers to earn money during the games.NOT SEX WORK.....ALTERNATIVE INCOME SOURCES, not me trying to open a brothel to benefit"a-list"workers and make money from sex during the games as is being misrepresented here.

it's nice when you make it seem as if i want to profit from the most vulnerable sex workers in vancouver though. i really appreciate once again being cast as somehow trying to profit from the sex work of workers on the street. yup that's me, rounding workers up and only hiring the most beautiful....did you even read our coop plans....? i mean fer christs sakes, talk about not being clear on your posistion....

even in terms f the coop brothel we won public support to create. you yourself demonstrated support of that intiative as a way to combat dangerous working condition in the sex industry association thread.

once again demonizing me and misrepresenting the true goals of canada's first sex worker cooperative.thanks for making my point about this remind. i like the way you misrepresented what i said.

respectfully susan, I cannot give credit to  your claims above for  "alternative income source" that is not sex related, in respect to your  original plan for your "co-operative"... sure enough it is perhaps what you are trying for these days, which is admirable,  but it was not the plan  back in 2007/2008. Had you started back then, on what you say you want today, perhaps it would have been functioning as such, by now?

... have taken all of this very seriously, from all persepctives, and have been doing much research back, as I noted above, my daughter and granddaughter live on legally acknowleged Coast Salish land, not just on unceded land.   As such, I have to consider what AWAN says very very seriously, and those that make comments against their statements too. As I need to know the truth, in order to best support my daughter and granddaughter, though knowlege and experienced based awareness, by having all the information available to me, that I can collect, and discern from, that actually has proven veracity, that is also experientally based. This is beyond of course my concern for ALL women and what impacts decriminalized johns, pimps and procurers, could have upon us.

From these perspectives, I have researched what was said  back then, and indeed sought proof to support/decry AWAN's position, and what I found has supported their position and statements, as posted and linked to above. Indeed your own words, as I indicated above, support their words, and have further indicated that I must respect the words of AWAN, as that of lived experience, and knowlege of what is occuring, in and on their territory.

There is no reason that I can see to deny, or decry, their words.

...the original article back when this was all first proposed, is as follows:

where does it say olympic brothel?....no where......where do i say only high wage workers will be allowed to access the safe work space, no where.....we have always said the "olympic money was during the construction boom and it was...and its over.....if we had wanted to protect workers being trafficked we missed the boat.......the statements by the mayor and the reporter are the result of the misrepresentatio of our goals by the abolitionist side.

go ahead remind tell me i am misrepresenting my self, call into question my credibility . my reference in the article to 5 coops is the 5 distinct strolls in vancouver and those workers being able to come together and define what they need as a community, 5 distinct communities actually and is not an olympic brothel. its a way to begin to stabilize the safety of people on the street.

but please, take the words of a reporter confused by the amount of information i gave him as gospel.

all of our plans related to the games were based on creating alternative income sources.ie- the cafe, history of sex work museum exhibit, historical walking tour, and art retail space.-read the reports of the development of our coop on our website- www.wccsip.ca nowhere are olympic brothels mentioned. working conditions and safety, definitely mentioned....no where in this chronological record of the development of canada's first sex worker cooperative will you find any reference to the desire to creat an olympic brothl. you will however find reference to alterative income sources during the games.

i have been working on it since then and as stated before have donated $360,000.00 at $20 an hr of my time in kind to these efforts. thankyou for diminishing my commitment to this goal. i have never lost sight of the direction given to me by the cooperative membership.i have applied 2 times to the CDI fund only to be rejeted as "not a priority" in one case and "too ambicious" in the other.where should i find the $1,000,000.00 for this goals remind...?should i pull it out of my ass?turn tricks to earn it...?you seem to have no comprehension of what this will require in effort.

it is a big enough effort to get exiting opportunities funded never mind a safe work space....but now with the in kind donation of an architect and business planner we will have a clearer picture of what it will take.also, once the stupid olympic games are over, we may finally be able to move past this effects of this misrepresentation of our efforts and move forward with our plans.

i like how you think what i am trying to do is so easy it should have been done ages ago and i must be incompetant.i am an unfunded active sex worker trying to stabilize my community.what have you done ? oh that's right.........

i would like to point out that this is not the position of the CNCEW.....while i respect the members can hold whatever opinion they like as is also true in the BCCEC, people shouldn't assume this is the position of the canadian national coalition of experiential women.

http://www.cncew.ca/lawreform.html [76]

• Decriminalize sex workers by repealing laws related to communicating, soliciting and keeping a common bawdy house.
• Do an in-depth review of law, law enforcement and punitive systemic policies that result in enforcement against women in the sex industry.
• Carefully evaluate the experience of other jurisdictions where sex work is wholly or partially legalized and/or decriminalized.
• Provide appropriate supports and services for sex workers who are arrested and those who are incarcerated.

to whom ever took exception my refering to the SIWSAG as the VPD committee in some long gone post to trisha baptie......and called police members of the group.....

for the sake of clarification;

http://vancouver.ca/police/diversity/2009/SISWAG-outline.pdf

Collaborative action group connects Vancouver Police, Sex Industry Workers and

I'd like for any of you anti-decrim people to start talking about what you would do RIGHT NOW to make the sex work safer for those who are in it.

I have yet to see anything from your side.

http://informedvote.ca/2009/10/13/the-case-for-decriminalization-of-pros...

This is from AWAN:

If we are to help the most vulnerable street prostituted women, of which a significant number are young aboriginal women struggling with problems with addictions, homelessness, and chronic, often life-threatening health problems, what we need are:
1) more detox beds;
2) recovery centres designed to: a) give women "cultural tools" to recover; b) educate women concerning the origins of violence in their lives; and
c) consciousness-raise so women can fight to end prostitution--the "oldest oppression" in the world;
3) comprehensive and compassionate medical services;
4) guaranteed liveable income;
5) job training; and
6) adequate housing for women and their families.

Both sides agree there is a need for this (decriminalizing women). So...when will we hear the voices rallying against all the governments past and present who have helped create this situation? Here we are, sitting here arguing. Where are the solutions? Let's move past this back and forth debate over terms and stop making assumptions about that other people's motives are. Get off our collective asses and get out there and do some advocacy work, some volunteer work...I plan on donating some of my time beginning next month when I'm back downtown again, doing street patrol at the Anishnawbe Health centre.

Anyone else doing any volunteer or advocacy work for FN women or others who need help? (I am interested, not being mean, degrading or assuming nothing).

We cannot keep waiting for a Con government, which sees women as a fringe group, to help us. We have to do it ourselves and lobby the idiots who head the Cons to start moving on women's issues, regardless of which side you're on.

Susan had you wanted to start a work co-operative, based upon legal work, it would have been a go from the get go....there are no barriers to starting a co-op based upon legal activities. This is common sense awareness and is easily provable by just googling how to start a co-operative organization.

More to indicate the veracity of Jeff Lee, and AWAN.

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/2413

....there is much more evidence, indicating what  your initial co-operative plans were, that I cannot even be bothered to post here, so please I am asking you stop with the disparaging of AWAN...it does everyone a disservice, including rabble/babble.

Let's start at a place where I believe we can all gather...

as there is one thing I believe that everyone agrees with, and  that  is the realization something has to happen to assist those most at risk, prior to February 2010.

And that does not mean protecting men who are looking for sex tourism...or those looking now for disposable ejaculations

I would say it means at the very start, instrumenting guaranteed income, starting immediately, for those who cannot qualify for the reasons I noted way above in another post...who have been forced into prostitution, as Beverly Jacobs also notes.

Yes, I see we are the same conciliation path here Stargazer, and indeed I did mention  long ago now what I believed the first step was here in BC...and mentioned it again above, to which jmartin responded, and again just moments ago in response to susan's post.

FN women are forced into it, across the province because they  have no access to any other income sources....Gordon Campbell took that away from them in 2002.

They are my  primary consideration here, not those who have chosen "sex work". They actually have choices, like susan does.....to do other, or get support from others in their family.

Do not see her comments as anything different than what  CNCEW states.

Reading your posts I can find no evidence of respect let alone that you may be persuaded, in fact what I read is contempt and deliberate baiting.  I wonder if you have ever been misquoted in the newspaper, I have and it happens, it happens a lot.

I don't expect that women who choose sex work really care whether or not you feel for them, I think they would much prefer you to simply refrain from imposing your values on them, I know that is the way I feel.

And I do think abortion is a good example, in both cases it is one group trying to control what another group does with their bodies.

Have you been misquoted on the same things in about 7 different  interviews by differing peoples and media sources? Or by a Mayor?

Why would you disbelieve AWAN over Susan Davis?

I agree, nor would I expect them to, any more than I expect them to feel for my plight...

Not trying to impose any values  on anyone, and I challenge you to provide a quote of where I did so. Or where I even spoke of "values" in the first place in respect to prostitutes, or sex workers...

Again I repeat, my focus is on the safety of the women who can least protect themselves, and upon the men, who are johns, pimps and procurers, who would exploit women's plights...

hey remind, where does it say olympic brothel....?in anything you are posting....?no where...but i do appreciate your continued attempts to misrepresent our activities.

by the way, once again, prostitution is LEGAL in canada...so where ae our rights?and why don't you support coop work spaces...it is after all a legal occupation in canada.

her comments are abolitionist, not in support of  decrim...you really do have selective hearing and memories.

i also did not see 7 different articles....you sure like to exaggerate....

Power to the workers!

Susan, I can see you're frustrated, but could you please not make personal comments like "you sure like to exaggerate" and "you really do have selective memories and hearing"?  I think you can get your point across without it.  Thanks!

And remind, that goes for you too - comments like, "Why would you disbelieve AWAN over Susan Davis" is insulting because it implies that people should disbelieve Susan.

 here here,slumber jack!

ok michelle

http://www.wccsip.ca/doc/developingCapacityForChange.pdf

A harm reduction approach reconciles the extreme view points expressed in Abolitionism- the

elimination of sex work and sex workers and the Sex Worker Rights movement-the

acknowledgement of sex work as work. A cooperative run by sex workers will address the

harms within the sex industry, some of which are prohibited under section 212 of the Canadian

Criminal Code. A cooperative will ensure that although involvement in the sex industry may

not be a "free" choice for all, the context and environments in which sex work takes place can

be safe, sex worker directed and free from harm.

a sexworker cooperative will ensure;

Sex workers as a community can self-determine;

Sex worker experience "sex work" as defined above;

Sex workers manage and control their own working environment;

Training and support with health and safety are provided through community

partners;

There is support for workers to transition out of sex work if desired;

There is assurance that recruitment, coercion, extortion, violence and youth will not

be involved in the industry;

Marketing strategies reflect collective agreements among workers;

Management of existing establishment be made accountable to workers though a

complaints process and sex worker influence over municipal licensing;

Sex workers and customers have a place to access and exchange information;

The destination of funds/profits generated will be under the control and stewardship

of a board of directors comprised entirely of coop members. Revenue can be

directed to a wide range of supports, some include a health benefits package for

sex workers, coop improvements, security and expansion, a scholarship fund for

sex workers, anti-violence and community education strategies, contributions to

selected community initiatives or investments.

project ongoing suring 2007 report written and submitted 2008;

http://www.wccsip.ca/doc/leadingTheWay.pdf

Second Project: Leading the Way- Strategic Planning Toward Sex Worker Cooperative

Development

This current project engaged with sex workers in rural communities and assessed on and off-street

working conditions in these unique environments to expand our collective experience of off street

working conditions in British Columbia. Also, Vancouver sex workers were mobilized to become

the Cooperative Development Team and establish a Terms of Reference to guide our work,

manage decision-making and ensure that activities hold true to our project goals. We engaged

directly with sex workers and with identified community stakeholders, legal experts and

professionals in the Harm Reduction movement to enhance the capacity of the Development team

to:

• learn from .best practices. in harm reduction;
• develop a strategic/action plan (inclusive of activities related to business plan development, market research, incorporation, federal exemptions, zoning etc.);
• use the strategic plan as a tool to garner further community support for a sex worker cooperative business.

This project is widely supported and reflects the diversity of sex working communities as it includes

women, men and trans-individuals as well as those from different .classes. and varying capacities

and abilities. More specifically, sex workers engaged are multi-literate and culturally diverse. First

Nations, Asian, Caucasian, Black workers and those of mixed race are currently invested.

where in any of our reports does it say olympic brothel......?no where.......but i guess its too much trouble to expect you to actually read what was written, rather to take it on a third parties interpretation and misreresentation of the true intentions of this action.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=bdb0...

http://genderberg.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4166 [96]

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=bf1a23dd-411b-4d2... [97]

http://womensphere.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/legal-brothel-no-solution-to... [98]

http://mostlywater.org/sex_workers_plan_brothel_in_2010_olympics_cit [99]

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/tories-nix-2010-olympics-sex-trade-co-opy [100]

Oops....pardon me I should have said 8,  including the 2, I gave above, plus,  AWAN's account and Vancouver Rape Relief's account, and Mayor Sam Sullivan's account, plus many more that I could list that are named in the articles.

Also, found an article in the Prince Albert paper on it and another one too, but I am sure that there is more than enough info to show your were not misquoted, nor misunderstood,  nor misrepresented, etc...

And note the last link is to an article about Harper's government saying "NO" in 2008 to the experimental plan you put forth....

Out of context, as was meant inconjunction with the stated desire to have no regulations as a job industry, and my clear outlinning that such could not be and it would have to be regulated, even though your lobby keeps saying "no regulations".

... did not name sex workers as profiteers, said that men wanted to profit off of women's exploitation too, besides their desire to have no regulations.. I thought that was pretty clearly worded, but perhaps not...

will state it again:

We have seen here at babble statements that there should/could/would be no regulations, and this court challenge is  about john's, pimps and procurers/bawdy house operators, who are for the most part men, who also want to benefit from women's exploitation, besides having no regulations upon them and their commodity consumers.

ETD to check llinks, had too many windows opened and to remove a link that did have comments disparaging of susan...

are you implying that people should disbelieve AWAN then, by the same token? I do not think so, and it was not the case with me either...

it was a clear question as to why she would disbelieve AWAN and believe Susan Davis, as I was looking for evidence to support susan's contentions, as I have found plenty to disprove it..

... am very upset about the disparaging remarks against AWAN and am taking it pretty much as a racial bias,  given the amount of infomation on the web that indeed shows Susan's plans were for an olympic co-op brothel,  so much so, it has gone well beyond plausible denial.

you suck remind.

believe who you want, i could care less what some non sex working abolitionist woman thinks.carry on you crazy diamond.you posted 2 links that went no where.....

and the women's sphere wordpress does not have me saying olympic brothels.....some one else says it...the same groups perpetuating the misrepresentation of our plans.

my comments are all related to the benefits of a safe work space for street entrenched sex workers, other wise known as the coop brothel.

the woman in the ottawa citizen article never even spoke to me. she states i am quoted as saying...she never even bothered to contect us before jumping on board the misrepresentation train.she based her article on the origional misquote in the vancouver sun....

nice proof of my dishonesty

the with leather link is awesome!!people threaten to kill me and defacate on my corpse!!!thank you for sharing that wonderful link remind

http://withleather.uproxx.com/2007/11/legal-brothels-at-vancouver-olympics

here is the link since remind saw fit to edit it out i am sure in an attempt to make me look like i misrepresented her.

the genderbrg link is to a story about the salvation army's offensive campaign and our "lies are sexy" response.

how is it allowed on babble for a person post multiple links claiming they support proof of my dishonesty some of which have absolutley nothing to do with the coop brothel project and some of which lead to pages where i am threatened with violence. is this a misrepresentation?

all of these articles are based on the mis quote in the origional vancouver sun article. i never spoke to any of them except the vancouver sun reporter. i never said olympic brothel then or now.

and i am a racist....nice!

Never once said you were racist, said I was taking it as such....because it is past the point of even being tolerable as a point thrown up for consideration

.... am going to believe AWAN, lawyer Beverly Jacobs, Vancouver Rape Relief,  former Mayor Sullivan, Jeff Lee, Libby Davies, Wency Leung, Janine Benedet,  and the host of others spoken to about this project of yours...I have the full original article with Jeff Lee, 

linked to Wency Leung's from women'senews, interview with you above, in post #76, second link, which was in October, a month before your interview with Jeff Lee, complete with a picture of you taken by Leung...

again part of the Sun article is:

ETA: If anyone wants the full copy, plus a note from JL on the veracity of what he wrote, pm me and I will send it to you

...will not say anymore on this other than again ask that defaming AWAN, stops.

let's move along to discuss perhaps where we should be going with this, and personally I am taking AWAN's viewpoints and advice...

um, remind we DID INCORPORATE THE COOP......or did you miss that some how......or misrepresent i should say......

what about the funding barrier? you know the 1 million dollars we need....?is that not a barrier...?

i see you edited out the link to people trying to kill me, also, i like how you try to own our supporters. many people DO support the safe work site but that does not make it an olympic brothel.

Co-op's are like credit unions, they depend upon funding from the membership....until profits start, hence my suggestion that people look up what they are...

... what I gathered from that aspect, long ago now it seems,  you only were allowed  incorporation as a legal community association...not as a "brothel",  and are now seeking to remove/obscure the "brothel" component in order to try and access funding....even though you have had almost 2 years to undertake membership drives to fund your own legal activities...

Now...I am not dissing you on this, as at least you, as you say, have a plan...but I guess I am questioning motive and real desire...because there has been no action for 2 years, other than volunteer lobbying for  a "experimental brothel" before the olympics started. As such, all your volunteer co-opertive actions have been geared towards lobbying and not towards said legal business org model.

noted above that I did so,  sincerely sorry about that, did not read that far into it. Make sure I will next time....

You keep going on about this "olympic brothel" as if  such a title, or lack thereof, somehow makes a difference in things...it doesn't make a darn but of difference

Fact:  you wanted a co-op brothel started in time for the Olympics...and stated such, to many people. That it would also extend after, makes no difference  to things, its primary focus in 2007 was for it to be operational in time for the Olympics.

what the hell do you know about our plans, what work is being done and where we are with it?do you honestly tink i am going to ever share any of our plans here again?the personal attacks and phone calls etc. to people with whom we partner and our supporters does not make this a safe place to share what we are doing no to move forward. with no funding, an anti olympic brothel campaign and the economic downturn. do you seriously think we are going get any funding...?any where....?even for exiting ideas....? no ...becuase the government, like you could give 2 shits what happens to us.

you are question my motives and desire, wow nice low blow to a person working her ass of for freeto try to reachthese goals in the face of overwhelming misrepresentation of our plans and our intentions.

you have alot of nerve lady to question my commitment, what have you done......?oh yeah........nothing

and once again, it is NOT a fact that we wanted olympic brothels, read the damn reports. we wanted to creat alternative income sourcesfor workers, period for the games. you keep beating that dead horse though.

why don't you go hang out with your buddies on with leather?.you provide no proof and still assert these misrepresentations. i find it completely tasteless and rude for you to continue to declare my so called dishonest intentions. i don't know where you grew up but let me tell you.......

Read this over three times.

Could not find the word Olympic.

This is really uncalled for susan..

I know nothing about phone calls  to yourself and others, and attacks upon you, and as such I take your statenments as accusations  against me,  as you are infering that such was  me, and that is slander...

My last comment because this is beyond belief now;

You have detailed your plans here at length, an indeed on your website..hopefully most of us know where you are at with this, as I thought that was the point.

no mention of our website...is that not some work? no mention of any of the committee work i do or the trade secrets project...i mean what do you think we are...?some big organization with 100 people working on things.....?

membership drive......?you honestly think impoverished sex workers on the street are going to make up a million dollars in membership dues....?

the entire point was to create an accessible safe work environment for street level sex workers. membership fees were kept low $20, we are talking about poor people.we have never waivered from our desire to work on the brothel. it just seemed to me that exiting was a more attainable goal and so we decided as a group that those aspects would be our first priority.

it was never an olympic brothel and has nothing to do with te games. it has to do with stabilizing the safety of sex workers on the street right now. how do you create safe work space without profiting from room rentals....?the members own the business, a cooperative.

conflating our plans with the olympic games has only served to draw awareness to the abolition position and completely distort the true nature of these plans.

respectfully, you have no idea what you are talking about.

i never accused you personally of anything remind, nice try though.

it certainly was the point. i came into babble with an open mind. hoping to discuss plans and hear about plans on the abolitionist side. look at the reception i got. i will continue to contest blanket assumtions and try to combat thhe misrepresentations of what we do. i have to say though, after all that has happen here, i am no longer comfortable sharing the details of how we will reach our goals.

i had hoped to be able to appeal to people for advice and put our plans and ideas out for all to see... but instead i have been called every name under the sun, belittled, baited, insulted, called "racial biased", misrepresented and bullied.

i do appreciate the support of members here who have expressed such but its been emotional......

Ignore the bullies and stay the course Susan

This is difficult to watch.  (Figuratively)

This stuck out to me:

How do these men have influence?

It was from this link:

http://www.womensenews.org/story/the-world/071011/sex-workers-plan-broth...

There should be no sex work, poverty, domestic violence, etc...But we should try to protect those in danger right now...And normally we're in agreement here?  Really seems deja-vu-ish.

Stargazer,

I wanted to go back to a question that was asked about what abolitionists are doing right now to improve the safety of women who are currently on the streets. 

Many of the abolitionist women I come across are working in women's shelters, or are personally mentoring and financially supporting women who are exiting or are currently selling survival sex. 

I do clothing drives and put together care packages that I hand out personally to the women on the DTES when I can, but am looking for ways to become more involved with front-line work on a consistent basis. I would welcome suggestions. 

Thanks Jmartin, I think that's good work.

Remind, you do not own the voices of FN women and what I find offensive is that you think we all think alike. I also find it offensive that you essentially called susan racist (and got away with it)

Michelle, something is seriously wrong in these threads. You know what I mean and I wonder why susan is getting slapped down and not anyone else.

I guess it's the difference between fine tooth combing, and the brush off.  Depends on what is expected as standard fare, and what isn't.

it is once again a mistake by the reporter to conflate that the cafe/museum exhibit and brothel are the same thing. many people find our plans difficult to understnad, not sure why.....but it happened over and over, i guess i just need to focus the message more, it's hard though as we are trying to adress so many issues.

anyway, i have always been trying to open the restaurant/cafe in time for the olympics, but big surprise, no funding.

yes, there is a threat from business owners or organized crime. i have been updating some factions as a way to protect myself and increase understnading of those people about the intentions of our actions.

my former madame, i was almost killed working for this woman......, is a horrible person, she held my friend prisoner and forced her to work, she fined us into debt servitude and continues to bully us in anyway possible ever since.

she is extremely threatened, and has threatened us, me in prticular, on many levels.do you think there is a mechanism to complain....?nope she is still in business. and it's the sex industry's fault exploitation exists right? how bout total complcency and complete and utter failre on ther part of th police and systems intended to protect us.

in argentina one of the sex worker union orgaizers was killed, assasinated.

so yes, i would say i am at risk. if you would like to read more about working conditions indoors, dveloping capacity for change- www.wccsip.ca [58] under resources- goes into great detail about problems facing workers indoors.

I'm closing this for length, and haven't had time to read it all. If some mod or other reads it, please re-open to comment where necessary. My head hurts and I have to lie down.

I would also suggest that we give this thread a rest.  At this point, it's mostly just bickering between two posters with occasional interjections from others, and flagged posts. 

So unless people really want to start fresh with a new thread and not just continue quoting posts from this one and sniping at each other about them, please don't bother continuing this one just for the sake of continuing it.

Thanks.