11 killed at military facility in Texas

Obama will now have to expel all Muslims from the U.S.

And all doctors or educated people.

What does it look like to you, Doug? Has one of their Manchurian candidates gone off the deep end?

There's some reports coming out that the other two suspects have been released.

Soldier suspected of killing 12 at Fort Hood is alive, in custody

An Army officer opened fire Thursday with two handguns at the Fort Hood military base in an attack that left 12 people dead and 31 wounded. Authorities apprehended the gunman -- a soldier who had previously been thought killed -- in what appears to be the worst mass shooting at a U.S. military base.

I'm speculating that as a psychiatrist, he's heard a lot of sick shit first hand from the troops about the depraved, murderous acts they've committed against civilians, and had enough. 

The guy's a hero.

I'd like to know how a single guy with two handguns managed to shoot over 40 people, many of them combat veterans, before he was stopped.

If you think that someone who murdered 12 people is a "hero" then you are one sick puppy.

lol, lock, stock and barrel.

Most likely the others were not armed.

Looks like the days of the Wild West are not gone.

The guy was as proficient as John Wesley Hardin.

"I are a shootist" - Quote from a gunslinger.

Did anyone manage to get his guns? They would be worth a lot. Did anyone dip their hankeys in his blood as a keepsake? Frank and Jessie James rode through here.

This Friday remember to wear your red T shirt to honour our Heroes. And don't forget to wear a red poppy.

This guy did his best to prevent rapacious thugs from committing the mass murder of innocent civilians. That's pretty heroic.

If posting something as vile as this isn't grounds for being banned from this site for life - I don't know what is.

Do you feel sad for those soldiers? I don't.

I'd like to hear your opinion on what should happen to Paul Bernardo. I wonder if that would be ban worthy.

I was shocked, Shocked!, that such unthinkable violence could happen in such a place. No one could have predicted it. No one.

He didn't shoot up a daycare. He didnt' shoot up a classroom. He didn't shoot up a women's shelter. He didn't shoot up an abortion clinic. He shot up a bunch of soldiers being readied for deployment into Afghanistan and Iraq. They were going to participate in a war crime. If the US is at war, like they are always saying they are, then that is a perfectly legitimate target. It's what the Pentagon would call a "target-rich environment".

But go ahead, weep for the worthy victims, cut down so tragically before they could do the Lord's work of killing Muslims.

You know nothing about who this guy slaughtered in his killing spree. If you consider mass murder to be something to be celebrated then you are a truly revolting human being.

He shot all the wrong people.

Well his best was a foolish mistake. The organized murder will continue without him and the soldiers he shot to death. They were probably from lower and working class families.

Everybody take a deep breath.....

I doubt there's any political motive behind this. The military is a fucked up place full of screwed up, angry and armed men. I remember my cousin telling me about watching a soldier literally kick the head off another soldier in attack when he was based in Germany. Shit like this is almost inevitable.

It is morally pernicious and well as logically contradictory to make a statement that murder is wrong by murdering people.

This is no different than the argument:

1. Abortion is murder.

2. Murder is wrong.

3. Therefore, I'm going to make my political statement to the world by murdering potential or actual murderers (doctors who perfom abortions and their patients).

I see this as a case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This is what war does to people. PTSD causes people to suddenly and unpredictably snap. What happened is the sort of thing that PTSD can do to people. I see this as yet another reason why we should pull out of the Iraq and Afghan wars. The Major didn't deserve to have this happen to him. Neither did his victims or their friends and loved ones.

If we (babblers or anyone) are going to protest war, let us do it in a peaceful and non violent way.

...and exhale.  Important words Frmrsldr.  Thanks.

Frmrsdlr,  PSTD was my first thoughts too.  The only problem with that is that current information available is that he hasn't been overseas yet. I suppose that there are other reasons, like the stress from dealing with others as it appears that he may have dealt with PSTD as part of his work.  Regardless it does sound like some sort of snap.  I think it will be some time before the reason is figured out.  There is a whole lot of crap and speculation floating around out there as to why.  The MSM seems to be working on two narratives 'he was upset and angry about being deployed and freaked out' and not surprisingly 'he has some sort of Islamist sentiment' due to supposed blog posting made in the past year ago and the comments made by some Colonel who apparently worked with him.  Two nettworks babbled alot about PSTD before anyone knew anything but they appear to have dropped that narrative now.

The blogosphere has just gone downright nutzo. I've read everything thing from this is the first shots fired in a conspiracy created by Obama and his sekret muslim compatriots to destabilize the military and start the Islamist takeover of the US to he's  'muslim communist'  with connections to Hamas and AQueda and this is a terrorist attack that was supposed to be bigger but failed to the quick actions of the patriotic boys in uniform and some sort of thing that people are calling 'sudden jihad syndrome' as if this is some commonally known ailment. (new one to me, wtf?)   It's sort of frightening what people are coming up with and believing.

Here are some further details about the shooter:

Uh-oh, giving away important items of personal property is often a sign of impending suicide.

How's that working out?

Well Jingles, why don't you go out an do some objecting in the same heroic manner you think this guy did and come back and tell us how it worked out for you.

Come next election, Harpo wants a majority government. Harpo also wants a small contingent(s) of Canadian troops to stay in Afghanistan beyond 2011. We can make things very uncomfortable for him in both regards if we voice our opposition to the Afghan war by sending in letters to the editor of our daily newspapers, calling in on radio talk shows and attending public peace protests/demonstrations/marches, etc.

If we stand united, and our numbers grow, I think we can accomplish this.

No to the militarization of human rights.

Not one more death!

Out Now!

Bring Our Troops Home Now!

I'd like to know how a single guy with two handguns managed to shoot over 40 people, many of them combat veterans, before he was stopped.

Others here are more expert than I, but I think some Glocks hold 19 or 22 rounds, and only take a second and a half to expel an empty magazine and insert a full one.    Considering no one walks around armed on the base, it's a wonder more weren't killed and injured.

I do not understand how targetting unarmed people in this manner could be accounted as heroic.

I found this link on another board - it appears to be the shooters Facebook page:-

http://www.facebook.com/people/Malik-Hassan-Malik/1008970609

Thanks for your calm and intelligent responses, frmrsoldier. 

Jingles, you got your shock value.  Cut it out.  What you're writing is completely offensive, and I'm pretty sure you know it.

Cut it out? Thats all this sick puppy gets for praising murder?  No matter one's politics, violence, especially murder is wrong. Whether commited by tribal feudalists or the operatives of geopolitical brinksmanship its wrong.

Praising such an act is against babble policy and reducing its impact to 'shock value' implies babble policy only enforced selectively.

How about someone 'praising' Marc Lepine for being a good Muslim and protecting traditional values? Would that odious post rate a "Cut it out" or would you and the Praetorian Guard go all medieval on the poster?

I think Jingles is an agent provocateur.

To any right-wing lurkers:  no, we don't all get woodies when a soldier is killed. 

Oh, what utter bullshit. it wasn't post-traumatic stress disorder. He hadn't even been overseas. Lots of people ahve been and don't go around shooting everyone in site. Chalking up this sort of reprehensible action to mental illness is truly offensive to the many people who struggle with mental illness and don't massacre their fellow soldiers.

Why is nobody willing to put aside political correctness and be honest about what happened? He was a Muslim fanatic who yelled "Allah Akhbar" as he shot up American soldiers in cold blood. That - not mental illness - is what motivated this horrific crime.

And, Jingles, your words are truly the most reprehensible comments I've ever heard on this board or likely in any discussion period. I can only imagine how you'd feel if someone you loved was murdered in cold blood and then had to listen to some asshole call their killer a "hero" and say that the victim had it coming.

Or if someone praised the man who went into a Kansas church last year and shot an abortion doctor in cold blood? Mass murderers like this guy aren't heroes. And Jingles is not human.

Don't you think - all of you - it's time to leave Jingles alone? The over-the-top comments about him would be better reserved for the real mass murderers of this world.

I have no idea why this person killed these soldiers. But I personally reserve more grief and emotion for the victims of U.S. soldiers. That doesn't mean I consider their murderer a hero. But I find it bizarre - scary actually - to read some of the posts above and realize they could be applied to Omar Khadr (in fact, they have been by some babblers).

The frenzy in this thread reminds me of the furore against Sunera Thobani, for daring to mention that the U.S. was a victim on Sept. 11 in part because its hands were stained in blood.

Leave Jingles alone, and apply a little perspective please.

Islamophobia - noun - a mental state which allows the sufferer to draw anti-Muslim conclusions in the absence of any evidence whatsoever.

Have you read a newspaper this morning, unionist? No evidence? Eyewitness reports that he yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting. Spent the morning handing out Korans. Was under investigation for internet postings praising suicide bombings against American soldiers. Was disciplined at his previous job for 'aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb. On a registration form at his mosque, listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan, which even the mosque's imam found strange.

No, no, it's probably post-traumatic distress disorder because of the big bad American government.

Denial - noun -an unwillingness to accept plainly evident truth becuase it contradicts your assumptions and may tarnish your "progressive" credentials.

Well, SSC, what about Omar Khadr? Wanna see that Muslim fanatic punished for murdering that poor innocent U.S. armed tourist who was lost in Afghanistan?

You see, at the end of the day, you and I are on different sides of the big conflicts in the world today. That's why you get worked up into a serious lather of personally attacking fellow babblers, but would never dream of being so intemperate in your language when it comes to Israelis massacring civilians in Gaza or the U.S. and its allies massacring civilians in Afghanistan.

And that's why, in the greater scheme of things, the death of a bunch of U.S. soldiers readying for deployment on their "missions" doesn't rate as one of the greater tragedies of our time.

if he's guilty, I certainly do. I think he deserves a trial already. If he's innocent, set him free, if he's guilty, send him to jail. Seems pretty obvious. And you're referring to the "armed tourist" who went to a country whose government made it illegal for men to shave or for women to read and who harboured terrorists who flew planes into buildings and murdered close to 3000 innocent people, including the brother of one of my best friends? Yeah, I do consider that guy a hero and his death a tragedy.

By the way, are you still going to insist that pointing out the patently obvious truth that the shooter was Muslim and that his faith was a key motivator of his massacre as "Islamaphobic"?

I wonder why these borderline nutcases that go around killing all these innocent people don't go after the real root causes , no instead they go after the people who are innocent brainwashed simpletons Very cowardly ..can't they figure out "no root, no weed , no problem".

Apparently because of his muslim background he was constantly taunted and made fun off....they don't seem to be reporting that fact as much. Maybe this will be the shot heard around the world, possibly start an american civil war. A military so cruel even it's own soldiers turn on them.

You see this same thing happening with disgruntled workers too..going after fellow employess. Or better yet the racism in Canada where they blame the poor person from another country for taking their job when it's usually some political agenda to get more votes in a riding....or grease the palm of their buddies. Who do the simpletons go after ..the poor sap ,not the politician, not the former civil servant  who runs a $10,000 a head operation in another country...no they go after  inocent people. It's sick, and cowardly.

They could all be hero's for one day instead of cowards if they went after the right culprits. So the nest time yer paxil runs out or your zoloft or another serotonin uptake inhibitor, think the mosanto mantra "No root, no weed ,no problem"..go to the top and be a hero. Just say Jingles sent ya!

You know nothing - but that doesn't stop you from drawing conclusions. You speak of his "faith"? Based on what - CNN reports? You're saying that a person's "Muslim faith" can motivate him to mass murder? And you don't see that as Islamophobic?

What about the bastard that killed Rabin. And the little Nazi that massacred Muslim worshippers in Jerusalem. I think it was "the fact that they were Jewish" and their faith that motivated them to do it!!!

Your comments here are not only Islamophobic, they are so deeply Islamophobic that you quite sincerely can't even see it.

Based on interviews with people who actually knew him and from eyewitness reports. What else are you gonna go on? Or do you assume he's some gung-ho American redneck type who drives a pickup and loves Jesus and joined the military to kill Muslims? It was like during the DC sniper situation several years ago where people seemed so hesitant to point out that the guy was Muslim and that that's what motivated him. Far more stories referred to the shooter as a 'former soldier' instead of a "muslim extremist' as if his military career was what played a role...

Obviously their faith DID motivate them to do it!! Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir WERE Jewish extremists whose twisted interpretations of Judaism did cause them to committ terrible crimes. Now, obviously, Jews like you or me or the vast majority of them, don't deserve to be lumped together with Goldstein and Amir just as the vast majority of Muslims don't deserve to be lumped in with this killer. But no one would deny that extremist forms of judaism influenced Amir and Goldstein's crimes. Just like no reasonable person could deny that extremist Islam influenced this guy. Accepting plain facts doesn't make one Islamaphobic in this case or anti-Semitic in the other.

Edited to add: When you referred to the massacre of worshippers, I assumed you were talking about Goldstein until I noticed that you said it was in Jerusalem. THe Goldstein massacre took place in Hevron (at Macpaleh) so I don't know if you're referring to something else...

As SSB pointed out:

"No evidence? Eyewitness reports that he yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting. Spent the morning handing out Korans. Was under investigation for internet postings praising suicide bombings against American soldiers. Was disciplined at his previous job for 'aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb. On a registration form at his mosque, listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan, which even the mosque's imam found strange."

I think that there is a saying "if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck - it's a duck".

Unfortunately, by his actions, the murderer will only make things worse. As a result of his actions, suspicions and prejudice towards Muslims in the US - esp. in the military will get worse not better, pressure on Obama to "up the ante' in Afghanistan will intensify, not diminish. This act will serve to put sincere, peaceful opponents of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan on the defensive and will provide a motherload of propaganda to the pro-war forces. On every level, the murders actions will have the exact opposite impact of what he seems to have desired.

I think it would be misguided to package this incident as the work of a single, Islamic madman: too easy to file under 'crazy towelhead' and dismiss.

I think his Islamism is peripheral: the root as noted above is surely his long exposure to war-traumatized American vets and the horrible stories they would have reported to him, stories of sadism and everyday brutality against a fairly defenseless civilian population. I think stories like this would push a lot of people over the top, regardless of religion.

And it seems clear he had tried for a long time to extract himself from his situation; as a professional he would have been aware of the effect of the stresses upon him and the damage it was doing to his mental health; but it seems the military bureacracy's idea of a solution was to tip him from the frying pan into the fire.

Boom! And off he goes. Hardly surprising; just another military tragedy. With a nod to Jingles, if a little more of the violence the American war machine daily unleashes abroad stayed at home, useful questions might start to be asked. 

So expect a vigorous effort from the MSM to spin this into an isolated 'rogue soldier' incident, instead of an index of the current state of morale among troops trapped - 'stop-loss' anyone? - in an indefensible war.  

"So expect a vigorous effort from the MSM to spin this into an isolated 'rogue soldier' incident"

We should only be so lucky as to have the MSM spin this an isolated "rogue soldier" incident. The alternative interpretation will be to see this as part of a vast Islamic al-qaeda inspired conspiracy that justifies the whole so-called war on terrorism and could easily turn into a McCarthyite witch-hunt of "islamists" within American institutions such as the military.

I hope to God that this does get spun as the act of an isolated rogue soldier with mental health issues for the reasons i just enumerated.

There's a good interview on Democracy Now about this incident:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/6/in_worst_ever_shooting_of_its

This is obviously a plot by the U.S. ruling class, spearheaded by Dick Cheney, to provide a pretext for an invasion of Jordan. Note the number killed - "11" - what other attack happened on the 11th? I rest my case.

The terrorism of geo-political hubris and murder begats reactionary terror and murder as it's expected response.  The question of an individuals name and beliefs, and of this atrocity occurring under Obama's watch, has been answered before in countless predictable ways within the circles (Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, etc) that can usually be counted on to demand a particular series of responses, which involve the imposition of additional measures of violence and repression upon those already suffering under it here and abroad.

Predictably as well, a certain capacity for misaligned satisfaction can present itself upon news of casualties being inflicted upon the aggressor.  For example, insurgencies against illegal occupation can bring forth admiration for its tenacity, for the effects it is capable of achieving in the face of overwhelming odds, where we may understand each occurrence as serving to remind the powerful who use violence to achieve their ends in the first place, of their own limitations.  We tend to assume as much in clinging however precariously to the notion that suffering of any kind from either side beyond their own skins moves any of them.  

In following the mounting losses leading up to the psychological 4000 US body count in Iraq, I found that the satisfaction arising from each new statistical update to be short lived, to where it disappeared altogether upon further reflection, where the reality was obscured by the animation that came with the business of tallying alongside the grim reaper.  The horrific toll suffered on both sides, unimaginable personal losses for those left to contend with it, blinkered by the suggestion that those who preside over it, direct more of the same, and profit enormously from it give a damn.  They who present an  unremitting series of falsehoods, nationalism, honour and sacrifice, freedom through security, red t-shirts, remembrance, the 'more must be done to pay homage to what they have already wrought' stupidity, when in fact all of it is utter bullshit.  I've come to understand that grave dancing instead is more appropriately reserved to mark their passing.

I don't think she in any way celebrated the deaths, but rather spoke to the underlying causes.  That said I think that issues of soldiers and death are morally very messy and I think there should be wide latitude in the discussion.

You're right of course. There is no exact analogy. But the rhetoric in this thread is appalling - including the harebrained conclusions about the motivations of the shooter, based on ignorance, prejudice, and MSM reports that change by the minute. I agree with your call for wide latitude.

I agree, we have to keep away from "harebrained conclusions" based on zero evidence , such as the following:

"I think his Islamism is peripheral: the root as noted above is surely his long exposure to war-traumatized American vets and the horrible stories they would have reported to him, stories of sadism and everyday brutality against a fairly defenseless civilian population. I think stories like this would push a lot of people over the top, regardless of religion."

I think that we can probably all agree, that whatever the murderer's motives, his actions will only bolster support for curtailing civil liberties in the name of the "war on terrorism" and will only increase pressure on Obama NOT to withdraw from Afghanistan. I'm surprised no one has speculated that he isn't secretely a CIA agent on a suicidal mission to bolster support for the war on terrorism.

Perspective as in US military adventurism directly kills thousands of people per year and indirectly causes the death and injury of many more so killing a dozen or so crusaders is no big deal?

Or, perspective as in Jingles is showning himself to be a total asshole anyways so, whats a little more offensive behaviour?

I prefer the 'all violence is wrong, and so is getting a woody from select violence because the victims had it coming' perspective. There are no perspectives to violence - its wrong, period.

I think I'll save my perspective for innocent American Muslims who may have to carry one isolated lunatic's bags for a long time. The perp happened to be a Muslim perp but that distinction will most likely be lost in the media scramble to make a mountain out of a molehill.

There is no need for Hill&Knowlton opinionators now to drum up a similar conspiracy theory surrounding "nurse Nayirah"

And they're all out of Gulf of Tonkin conspiracy theories to justify sending 58,000 Americans to their deaths in Asia for the sake of the warfiteers.

 And if they play it up right, this could be the equivalent of Joe Goebbels' windfall when a Jewish student assassinated a German diplomat in Paris. The warmongers won't miss this chance to beat their war drums. Not now with the launching of the USS New York, with its new hull forged from steel carted off from the site of the twin towers in record time. As Scarlett O'Hara once said, the US military-industrial complexers never be hungry or vulnerable again!

I respectfully disagree. That's what conquerors always preach to the conquered - once the conquest has been consolidated. It's up to the victims to determine what methods they'll use to free themselves. When native insurgents meet U.S. (or Russian or Canadian or Polish or British) invaders anywhere in this world, I side with the insurgents. I'll leave you the pleasure of tut-tutting against both, and wishing they would just hug.

Funny how intentions can become reduced to sheer hypothesis within the space of a single paragraph.

But couldn't we help out the insurgents(not to mention Afghans being murdered every day) by pressing our warmongering old line parties to use diplomatic channels and nehgotiate peace with the Taliban as well as the surrounding countries deeply involved in this latest proxy war in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Or do we contiinue cheering on the slaughter from the sidelines and wagering that the Taliban will be victorious, and eventually put an end to the 30 year-long US meddling in their country? I think there are certain Americans who don't want our stooges in Ottawa to lead them anywhere near open and transparent peace negotiations, like it was with Paris peace talks between the NVA and USsA. US hawks didn't appreciate Ho Chi Minh and company embarrassing them the way they did, and I'm wondering why the Taliban continue with backchannel talks between them and the CIA, Brits, Saudis and ISI. Something doesnt smell right about this phony war.

I absolutely concur.

It rates as a great tragedy through the media's perspective of the week, which in turn lends fuel to the assortment of talking heads who ominously rant ad nauseum about the representative enemies within, which engenders a far more lasting impression.

I absolutely concur.

Dark Glass: Hateful Echoes and Hidden Costs

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1871-...

"At this stage, with so much about the Fort Hood case still unknown, there is little point in commenting on the substance of the case. But all kinds of rumours and conjectures and second-hand reports about the alleged shooter are ricocheting around the media echo chamber.."

Gee I was just thinking to myself that in the greater scheme of things, the death of Unionist also wouldn't rate as one of the greater tragedies of our time.

I think the military-industrial warfiteering complex will see it as just nother marketing opportunity. Whether it's 3000 dying on 9/11 or 11 dying in the lead up to Novembrance day, it's all good when America is under attack. As long as Americans learn to live in constant fear, that's what really counts with a country whose economy is based on war and increasingly aggressive foreign policies since 1991. 

As opposed to going to war on the basis of a lie (to steal oil) and killing up to a million people? Or sending innocent people to be raped with broken bottles? Dp you think any of those victims had friends, family, lovers? Or do only white lives carry value?

What happened was a tragedy, but it is a small tragedy compared to the crimes carried out in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and Palestine where many more people die every single day while over the "great game".

Yes, and The UK Was Complicit In Torture In Uzbekistan [68]

Global phony war on terror continues.

I agree. Is praising an act of mass murder acceptable on babble or isn't it?

I'm going to re-edit a post of mine where I had originally wished death by Orca on some traitors. Unionist was quite strident and vocal that that was "offensive" and even alerted the moderator, so I deleted that portion. It's going back in. Death by Orca to the Chiefs who carried the Olympic Torch into Victoria!

Look, if we went into Afghanistan to protect the rights of women and men there, then why did the Carter, Reagan, H. W. Bush, Clinton and G. W. Bush administrations support the Northern Alliance warlords and mujahideen (Mullah Mohammed Omar of the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden of Al Qaeda among them) during the 1979-89 Soviet Afghan War, 1990-96 Afghan Civil War where Northern Alliance warlords murdered tens of thousands of Afghans during the seige of Kabul (Rashid Dostum and Abdullah Abdullah, among others)? The Taliban regime was in power from 1996-2001, yet there was not a word from the G. W. Bush administration about human rights violations and, in fact, they were negotiating a deal for the TAP (Trans Afghan Pipeline) with the Taliban.

Your comment about the 3000 people who were murdered on 9/11 is closer to the truth: We are fighting in Afghanistan to avenge their deaths. In our current war, we have murdered tens of thousands of innocent Afghans. After we murdered 3000 Afghans (which we accomplished in the first month of war) why didn't we declare that vengeance was served and end the war? Where is the reciprocity?

I don't say that soldiers are evil - until very recently, I was one myself. Who I blame are the ones who sent them there: the U.S. and Canadian governments for the lies they used to send the gullible and the believing over there to commit murder and run the risk of being killed or physically or emotionally injured themselves.

This idea about us fighting in Afghanistan to defend the rights of Afghans is the bullshit our governments tell us to sell our illegal, unjust and immoral war in Afghanistan.

To make the statement that, "... his faith was a key motivator of his massacre..." is to jump to a conclusion that is neither obvious nor necessary.

I read that he joined the military because the United States of America was his country and he felt he owed it to serve his country.

It's all very complicated, Fmrsldr. 

I think what the end game really is in both Afghanistan and Iraq is to create some kind of stable regime that will suffer the Americans to maintain a military base or bases in both countries, thus securing hegemony over the resources in the region and to surround and nuetralize Iranian asperations in the region.

I believe the Bush administration were going to find some pretext to do what they did.  While I'm sure they banked on the region's endless supply of pretexts for military intervention, I doubt they envisioned such a spectacular pretext as what happened in New York on 9/11.

And, Canada is providing service to the empire as we always have, as good Roman auxilliaries did.  It's the Saxon way.

Cheer up, lad.  As insane, immoral, illegal and unjust as this foray is for us, it's not as insane, immoral, illegal and unjust as the Boer War.  We're getting better.

Stockholm?

Aristotleded24?

ElizaQ?

Canuquetoo?

Star Spangled "Canadian"?

Michelle!?

After calling for Jingles to be [you name it] for his words, what do we do with this call for death to FN chiefs?

Let it go?

Well, howzabout just the Muslim FN chiefs?

There are alternate interpretations to these alleged actions:

1. Spent the morning handing out Korans.

I have also read that he gave away other items of personal property: This is usually a sign of impending suicide.

2. He yelled "Allahu Akhbar" as he began shooting.

This could be a cry for help: "God forgive me for what I am doing."

3. He was questioned (not investigated) about the internet postings of a "Hasan" who praised suicide bombings against American soldiers. So far no public announcement has been made whether there is a connection or not between the internet "Hasan" and Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan.

4. He was disciplined at his previous job for "aggressively proseletyzing" his Muslim faith to his patients.

To me, this (along with some of the other talking points) is a sign of PTSD. Think about it. If the shootout was the premeditated act of a rational killer or if he was an Al Qaeda "sleeper agent" or "mole" (trained assasssin) meant to destroy America from within, then he wouldn't be so foolish or careless to "proseletyze" his patients, bring unwanted attention to himself and thus tip the hand of the public and the authorities, would he?

5. Had in recent weeks begun dressing in traditional Muslim garb.

So what? Prima facie, this establishes nothing.

6. On a registration form, he listed his nationality as "Palestinian" despite having been born and raised in Virginia to parents from Jordan,...

His response to the question of his nationality on the registration form, because it was in a mosque, he was probably thinking in terms of his ethnic culture. Many Palestinians live in Israel (where they are denied citizenship), Jordan and Egypt (where, sadly, they often live in refugee camps - both countries). His parents very well could have been Palestinians living in Jordan. He may also have responded with his cultural identity in this case, to prove his "Muslim-ness".

Please.

I don't I agree with Jingle's characterization of this event, but there is praising of mass murder on babble quite regularly. On Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan there are those who offer the equivalent of the praise of mass murder when they defend imperial interventions in other nations. Look at Star Spangled's comment: 

What does that statement say? isn't he praising mass murder in Afghanistan as revenge for a crime for which no evidence has ever been submitted to an impartial body? If his "armed tourist" is a hero for killing to right the wrong of 9/11, why isn't any Muslim's act to right the wrong of the illegal invasion of Iraq and the tremendous human cost in that nation equally right?

Is it because one nation's hero is another nation's mass killer?

Ever since I've been on babble there have been efforts by some to try and somehow legitimize state violence against civilians because of uniforms or some other such claptrap. Well you know what, armed violence is pure terror for those against whom it is aimed regardless of the clothing worn by those carrying it out.

If babble is going to ban those who praise mass murder, I'm all in favour. But let's include all praise of all mass murder.

Outrage over death by Orca, eh?

Now that we all know what was said....

Perhaps before getting all outragey, people might want to look up what Orcas mean to BC Coastal FN's.

That aside if a FN person wants to rail against their leaders and says death to them, apparently  by orca, then who am I, or is anyone, to judge them?

No, that's not what was said - that's the new sanitized version. But nice to see that E.Tamaran has no interest in this thread other than smearing some FN chiefs and wishing them death. Not sure what your interest is.

This really takes the cake for grasping at straws. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck ITS A DUCK.

No need for a throw-down Koran at the scene of this crime, that's for sure.

Let me direct you once again to a certain part of the Washington Post article I posted above:

PTSD is not a mental illness, but a mental/emotional injury/trauma. I hope the approach North American society takes with this case is one neither of mental illness/insanity, conspiracy theory (he was an Al Qaeda "sleeper agent" or "mole") or one of he was a religious fanatic. To do so would ignore/sweep under the rug the serious issue of PTSD suffered by American and Canadian service men and women. Let us not forget the fact that the rate of PTSD, suicide and violent crime within both the American and Canadian militaries have skyrocketed higher and higher each year since 2001, the year of the initial invasion of Afghanistan.

How American society deals with this case will show whether or not there is a difference between the Bush and Obama administrations.

I sincerely hope we get it right this time.

I got a really good laugh out of that one. Thanks Stockholm. It's been awhile since I got a really good laugh.

So, if you see someone wearing traditional Muslim garb (in America, "the land of the free") then you can be certain it is a "slam dunk" that person is an Islamist whacko killer.

Talk about grasping at straws.

To prejudge is to be guilty of prejudice.

If I'm ever in a jam and find myself in court, remind me not to hire you as my lawyer, o.k.?

An Easy Out

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/24805

"It's hard to pinpoint what's the most shocking thing about Major Malik Nadal Haran's shooting rampage at Fort Hood, Texas. I'll start with this: there's nothing all that ground-breaking about it. Happens all the time..."

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan's comrades-in-arms don't agree with you:

Yes, it is what I originally said.

Hasan was most definitely not a hero. I also think we should not all jump to conclusions about what his motives were before anyone really knows anything! 

There was a heroine that day however.

Thanks, G., short and sweet - it would be nice if some of the posters upthread took note of that simple truth!

Yes - there will be a trial if he recovers from his injuries. I am assuming this will be a military trial - or will it be a civilian one? Anyone know? 

Obama did make one small comment with wisdom when he advised the American people "not to jump to conclusions". 

Jebus H. MacChrist!.  Sounds like there's going to be a lot of attrition through death around here, along with even some formula for who's a hero and who get's mourned more.

Just out of curiosity, I'd be intersted in knowing what death by orca means, but another time perhaps.

Look, I was really uncomfortable with this from the getgo.  In a rare difference of views from Michelle, I may have taken stronger measures about jingles, myself.  I don't think lauding people's random deaths like that belongs on a progressive board, or referring to the clearly troubled shooter as a hero.  Worse, it set a bad tone for really bad comments as the thread progressed, and made the predictable polarization even worse.

From here on, we shall not wish death on other babblers, we shall not wish death upon or openly celebrate the deaths of people by catagory.  (that means if Rush Limbaugh chokes on a chicken bone we may collectively snicker, but not at some random group like soldiers who are sucked in through some back door draft and in the wrong place at the wrong time.) We shall not wish death upon FN leaders involved in a stupid sports event, political ramafications aside.

While I'm here...there are anti Muslim posts above.  don't do it any more.

My own take on things is that we're operating with minimal information, and that will change as time goes by. Speculate if you wish, but remember that it's speculation. What I find interesting is how it's being spun by the powers that be, and some pretty horrible reactions from some segments of the media. 

Some people above seem to be better at staying on topic, so carry on.

According to the smirking chimp article I posted at #81 he will be tried by a military court.

Mass Shooting at Fort Hood: Collateral Damage

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/nov2009/pers-n07.shtml

"The mayhem at Fort Hood in Texas, which has left 13 men and women dead and 30 injured, is a by-product of the brutal wars in the Middle East and Central Asia. It is a form of 'Collateral Damage' for which the American political and military establishment is ultimately responsible.."

I suppose the easiest conclusion for many to draw is that Islam is a bogeyman and the obvious source of any wrongdoing.  This point of view is nurtured by a strong background in reading comic books as a child, following today's mainstream media, and having a catholic lack of interest in considering the complexities of any given situation.

I think this last article helps put this in perspective and puts the spotlight on the correct subject. He didn't want to go. Why could he not be discharged? When someone doesn't want to go, why is the US military forcing them to? This is the real problem. What's causing these soldiers to go berserk. It's possible his internet posts were an attempt to get himself discharged.

Some interesting speculation over at Counterpunch:

http://www.counterpunch.org/stahl11062009.html

"Simply stated, was Dr. Hassan, a devout Muslim, being sent to Iraq to work with U.S. interrogators as a sort of liaision between the American military and Iraqi detainees?...

(A)s one of Middle Eastern descent who strongly opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, if called upon to participate in interrogation sessions, using what to him might constitute dubious interrogation techniques, what happened at Fort Hood today may well have been a deranged response to a righteous concern."

http://www.amazon.ca/Why-Do-People-Hate-America/dp/0971394253

I find it interesting that yesterday another man entered a former workplace and opened fire on former co-workers killing one and wounding several. In the Fort Hood incident there is so much effort to find blame and, more specifically, to blame it on the shooter's religious affiliation. In fact, the common thread through so many similar mass killings is the nationality of the shooter. Hassan was born and raised an American.

Whether than trying to blame the "other" maybe the focus ought to be on a society engaged in a "war on" everything while glorifying mass murder, weapons, and with a foreign policy devoid of all tools other than massive, industrialized state violence. In other words, the culture is psychotic.

Breaking news:

8 employees of U.S. military massacred by NATO pilots, dozens wounded

I think this might be a real and actual case of what CIA officials themselves have referred to as blowback against their illegal, covert activities as well as the US military's. "Blowback" is rarely talked about in the newz media and is generally described as, "Yes we[we as in the CIA and US military, Brits, Saudis, Pakistanis etc] really were hand-in-glove with Islamic terrorists of the 1980's and 90's, but then, and quite suddenly, they went against us" And there is no proof whatsoever that America and allies actually ever broke ties with religious fundamentalists in Asia. In fact, there is much evidence that those cold war era ties still exist, and that America is still funding the proliferation of militant Islam in Central Asia and beyond.

In this case, Hasan was working with the US military. And then, and quite suddenly, he went against them. And unlike Gulbuddin Heymatyar and others who've carried out gladio operations against US citizens and military personnel, they will crucify Hasan for this, because he is the perfect bogeyman. In this particular instance the bogeyman is real.

If Maj. Hasan acted alone, "a military on military" incident, then he will be tried under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

If there is a civillian, Al Qaeda or "terrorist group" connection, then the case will be tried in the Supreme Court.

Hey everyone! I've been out of town for a couple of days. Did I miss anything?

So much for "no personal attacks", eh? That's alright. I'm a big boy. I do find it amusing that some of those here who express such outrage at my comments were either curiously silent or enthusiastic supporters of Israel's massacre in Gaza. Or is it a massacre only if Americans die?

It weren't in the wrong place. They were preparing to deploy in the Crusades to happily kill Muslims over there instead of over here. Then, when they got back, they would cry to the base psychiatrist about how traumatic is all was. That is, unless they were honest like Matthew Hoh who said "I was never more happy than when our Iraq team whacked a bunch of guys". You know, Muslims. 

So... murder + more murder = peace and justice and heroism?

I take it you support the invasion and occupations, then. Because that is their logic, too.

Okay, this is probably long enough.