Georgia, South Ossetia, Russia - Part 14

The Opposition to the militarist regime in Tbilisi have met with the authoritarian President, Mikhail Saakashvili. The latter is still refusing to step down, despite his impending political oblivion.

Media concentration into the hands of friends of Saakashvili, actions of this media hound, mutiny in the Georgian military, and related topics are covered in Peter Lavalle [3]'s most recent blog entry.

"... where the military is NOT united in respecting civilian control." An Opposition Leader, not too long ago, noted that the real threat to Georgia is from the Saakashvili militarist regime itself. The danger of further military attacks on Georgia's neighbours, not to mention this dangerous division in the Georgian military, make the regime a threat to its own citizens.

Mind  you, Western regimes, trapped in archaic Cold War thinking in antideluvian organizations like NATO, could give a shit about the well-being of Georgians, South Ossetians, Abkhazians, or any of the other nationalities in the region. And the current military exercises in Georgia, in which Canada is involved up to its neck, is proof of that.

Where did Saakashvili come from, anyway? [4]

Then again, it's difficult to wean the Western countries from supporting a Caucasian thug, isn't it?

Georgia steps forward as launch customer for Turkish Ejder 6x6 AWVs

Georgia is the launch customer for the new Turkish Nurol Makina Ve Sanayi Ejder (6x6) armoured wheeled vehicle (AWV), it has been revealed.

Georgia has ordered 70 of the vehicles in armoured personnel carrier (APC) configuration; the first was delivered last year and final deliveries are due late in 2009.

I guess Humvees didnt pass field tests for them. You know what they say - if it's no Scottish, it's crrap!

Inside Russia - Military Reforms

Drive into the sprawling base of the Russian Army's 76th Airborne Division in the north-western town of Pskov, and you are greeted by a large mural with the unit's motto "Honour, Glory, Professionalism".

The first two words reflect age-old concepts in the armed forces; the third, a very new one.

That is why I have come, because the elite 76th Airborne (which first fought in Germany, and later in Armenia, Chechnya and most recently last year in Georgia) is the template for radical plans to streamline the world's fourth largest army and turn it into a leaner, meaner fighting force.

Pentagon Preparing For War With The Enemy: Russia

War of annhilation against Russian capitalism?

The mental condition of the Georgian President has been described as "severe" by the leader of the Opposition. Faced with a growing tide of calls for his immediate resignation, Saakashvili decided to go to Rome to watch a soccer game.

This week, we had the following:

Saakashvili's condition is "severe".

Tens of thousands gather for the final push. [11]

Well the final push is taking longer than expected. However, the following should be of interest ...

More exactly, we have:

See Der Spiegel

Mind you, some of the remarks were laughable ...

Inadvertently? ahahahahahahahaha ha! Yes, one billion "inadvertent" dollars per year in military spending and a truckload of American and Israeli military "advisors"  later MAY have "somehow" promoted Saakashvili's attempt to incinerate Tskinvali. And all the military exercises JUST BEFORE THE BOMBING OF SOUTH OSSETIA might have had an "inadvertent" effect on the Georgian President. OTOH, in good liberal fashion, perhaps, just perhaps, there's no connection whatsoever and one mustn't JUMP to conclusions about that great friend of liberty and peace, the USA.

USA! USA! How many kids did you kill today??!

I wonder what back page this story will appear on in Canadian and USian papers? Now, where's that broom ...

South Ossetia, one year later, we have the American left liberal view of Stephen Cohen ...

Stephen Cohen: it was like a Cuban missile crisis of 2008. A proxy war between US and Russia. Anti-Russian views remain dominant in Washington, the new President notwithstanding.

Cohen: Biden is simply a man who has difficulty controlling his mouth.

Ha. Nothing like an American to show American idiocy. Heh.

Here's a Russian View [14].

Interestingly, Georgia has said it is willing to provide "aid" to South Ossetia in the amount of $4 billion. The catch? All Russian troops must leave, making the tiny state virtually defenceless. The Georgian militarist Saakashvili has failed in his Anschluss; then, and now.

Biden's a Liberal Democrat warhawk. He has to prove his rabid anticommunist-ness to the rightwing whacko warhawks. It's all about political capital and credibility in Warshington.

Christ, is this really only "Part 14" of the initial thread about Georgia and South Ossetia?

I would have imagined that, by now, we'd have talled up at least a triple-digit number of threads! 

_______________________________________

Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

How about digging up a cartoon from last year?

http://news.antiwar.com/2009/08/07/georgian-president-vows-to-defeat-rus...

"The Georgian government issued its official report, which blamed Russia for starting the war with a massive invasion, a case of dramatic historical revisionism considering the clash was only 12 months ago."

One Year After August War, Russia and Georgia Prepare for Another Conflict

http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlines/20857/South_Ossetia_Ready_For_Inv...

Georgian Solidier Claims Saakashvili Preparing for Another War

http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlines/20858/Deserted_Georgian_Soldier_S... [20]

"A Soldier who deserted the Georgian army and has now fled to Russia says US instructors are now training Georgian soldiers for a war - just as they did before Georgia's assault last year on South Ossetia

One of the well known Georgian opposition leaders claimed that as long as Saakashvili was in power in Tbilisi there would be a danger of further war and resulting humiliation for Georgia. The opposition leaders have no love for the Russians but they recognize the harm that the current President is still capable of. That's why Saakashvili must go. He's a threat to his own country.

Russia Parries US Thrust in Central Asia

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/KH08Ag01.html

"the Russian move to strengthen its military presence in Kyrgyzstan is intended to counter the renewed US thrust into Central Asia. The alliance (NATO) is indeed lurching toward Central Asia and Moscow is worried.."

http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=21958

"Reports from the Organization for Cooperation and Security in Europe's (OSCE) observers on the ground, independent journalists and, most importantly, a number of senior Georgian officials who later broke with the Saakashvili regime, all confirm that it was the Georgian president who personally ordered a tank assault on the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and, specifically, on the Russian peacekeeping unit located there. This conclusion is widely shared by CIA and Pentagon intelligence analysts."

Gosh, I just can't seem to find the OSCE's conclusions (about Saakashvili's responsibility for starting the war) in the main stream media. Given the breathless and extensive coverage at the time, loudly blaming the evil Rooskies, I would have thought the MSM would have a keen interest in setting the record straight. They just report the truth, right?

Is there no end to American perfidy on this issue?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/world/europe/14military.html?_r=1&part...

It looks like the new party line for Yanqui imperialism is that the American (and Israeli) military "advisors" and trainers in Georgia prior to the bombing of South Ossetia were there to train for the NATO Afghan occupation. So the Russians have nothing to worry about this time around, eh?

What a crock of shit. At the time of last August's horrific atrocities against the civilians of Tskinvali, Georgia brought back from Iraq - or was it Afghanistan? - troops to participate in the bloodbath.

It seems the troops are as interchangeable as the Yaquis say they AREN'T. Try another lie, Uncle Sam. One's as good as another.

Caucasus: The War That Was, The World War That Might Have Been

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14779

"Russian political leadership has been reserved if not outright compliant over the past decade when the US and NATO attacked Yugoslavia, invaded Afghanistan and set up bases throughout Central and South Asia, invaded Iraq in 2003, assisted in deposing governments in Yugoslavia, Georgia, Adjaria, Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan, to Russia's disadvantage and brazenly boasted of plans to drive Russia out of the European energy market. But intensifying the destabilization of its southern republics and turning them into new Kosovos is more than Moscow can allow.."

Phillip Crawley Makes Special Statement on US Instructors Arriving in Georgia

http://www.geotimes.ge/index.php?m=home&newsid=17859 [28]

"Representative of the US State Department Philip Crowley made a statement on US instructors being sent to Georgia. US Marines will arrive in Georgia Aug. 15 and training will take part on Sept 1st. The second and third brigades of the Georgian army will be trained in Georgia and France. 170 Georgian soldiers will be sent to Afghanistan in November.."

What qualifies as a "bloodbath"?  I know this time last year the Russians were crowing about the thousands and thousands of civilians killed in Tshinvali and South Ossetia generally, but it appears that the numbers Russia itself has settled on are much, much lower:

South Ossetian Civilians - 162

Russian and Separatist Soldiers - 215

Georgian Civilians - 228

Georgian Soldiers/Police - 199

Looks like you, and a lot of other people, fell for Russia's babies-in-incubators story.

When you get around to providing a source for your numbers, then I'll get around to blowing your numbers out of the water. Wikipedia? uh-huh.

Yes A-J, Russia was only responding to the dire threat of posed by neighbouring Georgia.  Putin and Medvedev just couldn't humanly stand by while their Caucasian brothers were being victimized by others.  Putin and Medvedv are only fighting to defend democracy around the world.

Is that what Saakashvili is fighting for?

I thought the rule here is that the greater power in a conflict is the one to watch for, no? 

The greater power was the US and Israeli-trained Georgian military. The other side was the civilian population of Tskinvali and Russian peacekeepers  ... until the Russian military came to the latter's rescue.

Maybe some babblers would prefer that Saakashvili's storm troopers slaughtered more of the Ossetians, like the wild "success" the Israelis had in Gaza recently, and then the Ossetians, and their Russian benefactors, would somehow merit more sympathy from these "wise" and "just" babblers.

So should we then get directly involved to save Tibetans from China, Kordofanians from Chinese backed Sudan, or Burmese from their own?  Never mind, since I generally appreciate your posts on subjects other than Russia I'll just drop out of this one now. 

how about getting directly involved to save the sovereign indigenous nations invaded, occupied, despoiled and genocided by Canada?

 thread drift over - returning to regular programming now..

Actually I have been involved, and I've supported Native land claims from the beginning, thanks for asking.  I've had Zionists ask the same.  So before I retreat again, do we have to live in perfect nations before we're allowed to criticise violence inflicted on others? And does this rule apply in other lands?   

An obvious question to be put to a Canadian even by Zionists apparently. It is the settlers who "claim" not their rightful owners. Native land claims are a process for legitimizing their theft by Canada via "extinguishment by consent" and in answer to your question I say definitely not and rules are only made by those with the power to enforce them. bye ER

You just avoided my point regarding a certain double standard enjoyed here,  and youre avoiding the reality of land claims today. 

Of course they shouldn't *have* to be made by their rightful owners (or caretaker/tenants/inhabitants more accurately) but the situation now is that "we" Do "own" all the land, de facto and de jure (under our system of course), that hasn't been already "settled" by previous treaties (most of which were forced on them too, but not something they can give up either), therefore FN's rights had to be recognised in our courts before places like beautiful BC could be forced to start recognising their "claims" at all.  Maybe Re-claiming would be a bit better term but I don't know if it would fly in court. 

And rules are always set by the more powerful party, with some possibly easing under better conditions, but it doesn't make it right in either case.  So "natural rights" too sometimes have to be backed up by force or popular opinion or compromises made, but the common moral values remain above it.  Goodnight.  

And since I was again button holed, that's not the point the Zionist was making, but rather that "we" have no right to criticise "them" as long as "we" occupy someone elses land too.  He saw it as a common justification, I didn't.  But my personal support for giving land back to their rightful owners (some) and his personal opposition to it (any) apparently made no difference in him. There was no you or I to him, there was only us and/or them.  I don't think the left should get caught anywhere within that same field.

this discussion should occur in some other thread perhaps?

Without specifically addressing any one of your particular examples, solidarity or internationalism is a fundamental principle of the left. If it isn't important to someone then, in my view, they're not really on the left.

I have a personal interest in foreign policy and, since a good case can be made characterizing Canada as an imperialist country in its own right, without reference to the juggernaut to the south of us, I also consider it a duty of Canadians to at least KNOW what their government is doing in their name. Americans express the most comical stupidity when it comes to comprehending why their country is held in such contempt and disdain around the world and I would hate to mimic that political reflex myself.

Good article and historical review over here, more relating to Abkhazia than to South Ossetia, but very relevant to this thread methinks.

I was having a discussion on this just last night. Stragely the three of us were in agreement that the russian were in the right for protecting the people in that region. I also have a problem with NAto putting warheads on georgie, can you say provocative. The americans almost lew up the world because of the cuban missle crisis, meanwhile they go and repeat history to a nation that is as compliant as canada(which is saying a lot).

They responded to the threat posed by NATO. That is pretty clear to any thinking person.

And some of us think this is a real war against terrorism. It's not. Great game and economic warfare is what it's about. NATO thinks its job now is to continue encircling Russia and China. Destabilization, the "noble lie", and false pretexts for war is their treacherous game.

In the sci-fi movie, Independence Day, it suddenly dawns on Jeff Goldblum's character what the enemy is doing with setting up shop in countries around the world and near major world cities. His eureka moment in the movie is that the enemy is working toward checkmate against mankind. Full spectrum control and domination of the world

Georgia just can't seem to let it go:

http://news.antiwar.com/2009/08/21/georgia-seizes-cargo-ships-presses-na...

So America was justified in trying to invade Cuba then?  Curious.  Maybe you "thinking people" should think these things through a bit more thoroughly yourselves. 

For the ill-informed, I have agreed before that Russia has very legimitate concerns Re NATO, its a needless provacation and an obvious power play, but to ignore their own history of meddling in the region, or to pretend that any of the great powers are allies of any progressive cause only makes more sophisticated analysis impossible.

Any "good" ones relating to recent history in Chechnya?

Maybe a roundup of every conflict zone, past and present, from, say, October 1917 to the present, involving the Russian state is in order? Snicker, snicker.

Amusing dodge Beltov, but I specifically asked about the most recent era, say since the breakdown of the old Soviet empire under Yeltsin and the attempts by Putin to reclaim some of it's former glories.  We'll put aside all the "great game" nonsense that first got rolling when Disraeli decided to block the Russians from the region by supporting the Ottomans and invading the Crimea.  Most political alliances of convenience tend to change beyond recognition over too many generations. 

This as another example of what I'm referring to here.   Solidarity or "internationalism" has long been a matter of dispute on the left itself, as there has long been a question of who or what exactly we are being asked to show solidarity to, and there has always been disputes among those who consider themselves "left" on just what that word means. Especially in regards to the messy Real Politik of international affairs.  So far I'm unaware of anyone who has successfully claimed the exclusive right to define everyones membership in it, although lord knows some have tried.

It's working class internationalism as opposed to bourgeois cosmopolitanism. It's a class thing. This isn't rocket science, ffs.

Sorry if I don't see ex-KGB heads and leaders of once-great powers, like Vladimir Putin, as representing the working class Beltov.  

And BTW I grew up working class and lived the life myself (if that term can still be used in our post-industrial society) and the only easy escape I've found has been among the ranks of the truly lumpenized.

Erik, If you're unwilling to "take sides" on the responsibility of the Georgian regime for starting last year's war, when even allies (of Georgia) from the OSCE put the blame squarely on Saakashvili, then why participate in debate? You seem to have made up your mind, in advance, and would rather beat the dead horse of the Soviet regime, or change the subject to Kordofanians, or Cardassians, or the Klingon, about which you've obviously got plenty to say.

The Russians distinguished themselves in the conflict, albeit slow at first, punished the aggressor and took a number of steps to prevent a repetition of the bombing of Tskinvali, withdrew their troops from Georgia in a quick and orderly manner, provided assistance to the population of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and so on. These facts are easily verifiable by any unprejudiced observer. Get your head around it. There's no necessity, OTOH, to agree with any OTHER foreign or domestic policy of the current Medvedev/Putin regime in Russia simply because one forms the conclusion that, in this case, they did the right thing.

I haven't made up my mind either way, but commenting on the slightly one sided coverage here.  This is hardly the only example of it here, hence my other examples.  Be that as it may (or not), it's not at all clear to me that the Russian forces did pull out in a timely fashion or that their designs are/were anymore noble than others or even merely strategic in this case.  I did add that I didn't want to divert this thread further, myself, so could you provide instead any other estimates of total casualties (and source) to counter/balance what A_T offered before.  I too would like to see that.  

A_J failed to provide a source for his numbers. Maybe you can help.

Did you take in how American and Canadian media were reporting the war: It was all Saakashvili was innocent and a saint and was the victim of an unprovoked attack and Russia was evil and wanted to expand its empire and it was Russia that bombarded Tskinvali and occupied Abkhazia and South Ossetia and attacked Georgia and was responsible for bringing back the Cold War and no mention was made of the fact that Georgia was supplied with training by the U.S. and arms by the U.S. and Israel, blah, blah, blah?

Are you also aware of all that anti Russian, pro NATO (our defence of the Arctic is part of a greater NATO defense strategy), pro Cold War bullshit Harper blabbed on and on about when he was in Nunavut and that was (once again) faithfully not reported by Canada's "free" corporate owned media?

Have you taken in the fact that I have never advocated what the media does?  My opposition to one form of imperialism however does not mean I feel I have to support or dismiss another, see the difference?

Beltov, A-J quoted some figures:

" August 16, 2009 - 7:58am

N.Beltov wrote: At the time of last August's horrific atrocities against the civilians of Tskinvali, Georgia brought back from Iraq - or was it Afghanistan? - troops to participate in the bloodbath.

What qualifies as a "bloodbath"?  I know this time last year the Russians were crowing about the thousands and thousands of civilians killed in Tshinvali and South Ossetia generally, but it appears that the numbers Russia itself has settled on are much, much lower:

South Ossetian Civilians - 162

Russian and Separatist Soldiers - 215

Georgian Civilians - 228

Georgian Soldiers/Police - 199

Looks like you, and a lot of other people, fell for Russia's babies-in-incubators [61] story."

And you replied:

" N.Beltov [62]

Be seeing you!
rabble-rouser-machine

Member: 5140
Joined: May 25 2003

-->
[63]

August 16, 2009 - 6:08pm
#22 [64] (permalink) [65]

When you get around to providing a source for your numbers, then I'll get around to blowing your numbers out of the water. Wikipedia? uh-huh."

So I assumed you had a better source for this.  There's a reason I asked, but if you can't find another on-hand that's ok too, I already said we can all drop this anytime.

"babies in incubators" is not the same as casualties in the Georgian attack on South Ossetia. Where are the numbers?

I'm asking you this, where are the more accurate numbers you claimed you had?  If you just keep avoiding the substance of my posts then I'll just have to assume you don't really know the score over there either. 

And here's your Wiki piece.  I haven't had time to read it through let alone double-check any of it, against others, so feel free to pick it apart if you can.  At a glance though it does seem relatively balanced and has more links than most.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war

Geez, that's embarassing.  That's exactly where I got my numbers for my post from a week or more ago, but I must have forgotten to include the link.  Thanks!

I know Beltov won't want to hear what the BBC has to say, but the rest of the sources are in Russian . . .

BBC: Russia scales down Georgia toll [70]

Um, Kordofanians are people from Sudan and comparing them in with science fiction aliens because you think they have a funny name comes across as a little racist.

Racist. You mean like being indifferent to the slaughter of Ossetians by the Georgian miliitarist regime, and blaming the victims of Saakashvili's atrocities for the violence?

Erik was, in any case, engaging in thread derailment and wasn't interested, at that time, in further discussion of the war. He said so himself.

Thats not quite what I said Beltov, its not like it was a beside-the point observation or an occasional misunderstanding on this particular forum, I was just offering you an out.

And look again, Russia is hardly a small poorly armed nation at the mercy of others, or doing this only to protect neighbours its shown such contempt for itself; the casualties hardly compare to the 10% killed in Darfur or the 70% displaced, mostly from one particular "side" in the "conflict".  If you want to complain about the other guy not being "interested in discussing" an issue then you should at least make some attempt to offer them more than accusations yourself.

I'm very little interested in a debate about how many were killed by the Georgians, as though those that were killed weren't enough, or something like that, as it's clear that the initial numbers were too high (for whatever reason).

Nothing about the number of casualties changes the responsibility of Saakashvili's regime for the war, however, and I've yet to see any good criticism of the role of the Russians in this conflict other than some claims of illegal weapons, which were refuted, or too slow a reply, which was somewhat understandable in the circumstances, or the tiresome Russophobic Western media biases in which the Russians should, presumably, let a slaughter take place rather than prevent its continuation.

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely either Nik.   To show that I'm able to see both sides of a conflict, the EU itself now tends to agree with the Russian's version of events...at least up to a point.

http://www.upi.com/Emerging_Threats/2009/06/19/Georgia-Russia-war-EU-bla...

(Like how the UI wire titled it though)

South Ossetia and Abkhazia celebrate Independence Day:

http://news.antiwar.com/2009/08/25/south-ossetia-abkhazia-to-celebrate-i...

"Another reminder of the lingering tensions from last year's brief Russo-Georgian War, the republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, separatist enclaves whose claims of independence were finally recognized by Russia on August 26, 2008, celebrate the one year anniversary of this recognition as an independence day.

The permanency of their de facto independence is still very much in doubt, as the US has promised to use its position as a permanent member of the UN Security Council to ensure that the international community never recognizes the move."

The U.S. and a majority of countries recognize the independence of Kosovo but not South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Sounds like a contradiction to me.

The issue of Kosovo will continue to bite the USA on the ass. They'll just make up any lie to deal with it.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are different matters. Whatever any American regime thinks, the Abkhazians and Ossetians will never trust the NATO attack dog in Georgia. And that's likely true no matter how soon the Georgians jettison Saakashvili. In time, South Ossetia will join North Ossetia (the latter in Russia itself) and form a little state of its own. The Abkhazians have a very nice bit of territory along the Black Sea, unlike landlocked Ossetia, and I expect they will do well. The NATO/US plans for a reliable base from which to launch an attack on Iran is out the window; so too are various other schemes.

But, like the lidless eye of Sauron, the Russophobes will never sleep, determined to find a new way to enrage the sleeping bear, and will act  surprised when, once again, their proxies and client states get mauled. For now, the forest is quiet, but the little creatures will not forget who it was that disturbed their peace.

The Abkhazians have a very nice bit of territory along the Black Sea, unlike landlocked Ossetia, and I expect they will do well.