Honduras: I tawt I taw a coup d'état

Democracy Now's interview with ousted President Zelaya

Juventud Rebelde

BEST THREAD TITLE EVER!!!

I thought Spector had mistakenly posted a tweet.

Michelle, I thought the same thing. Hats off, M.

From the Democracy Now! interview above:

Apparently the Supreme Court ruled that he couldn't do this. Apparently he defied the court. Apparently the military used this as a pretext for the coup. I wish Amy Goodman had asked Zelaya something like, "Given that this was just an opinion poll, was this defiance of the court order a massive miscalculation on your part? Why did you bother?"

Hugo Chavez was also overthrown by a U.S.-backed military coup. If memory serves, a massive popular uprising reinstated him before the weekend was out. Does Zelaya actually have any popular support - was that airport demonstration a flash in the pan, or is there more to come?

Sorry, I haven't read details about all this; perhaps the answers are there somewhere.

I opened this thread just to say this.  Michelle beat me to it.

Good questions.

If this was just a survey, no different than something Gallup would conduct, as he claims, why didn't he do the obvious and just commission a poll from Gallup or another polling firm, rather than breaking into a military base to steal the ballots to conduct his own?

There have been demonstrations both for and against the Zelaya since the large protest at the airport (where the young man was killed).

AFP - Protest as Honduras's rival camps dig in for talks (10/07/09)

VOA -  [10]Demonstrations, Counter Protests Expected in Honduras [10] (07/07/09)

BBC -  [11]Honduras 'to stop Zelaya plane' [11] (05/05/09)

Don't bother questioning the fact that the military has control over the ballots. I guess having military control over the democratic process is actually democracy. Who knew?

Zelaya and Micheletti leave delegations to continue mediations

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/kristin-bricker/2009/07/zelaya...

Micheletti Tried to Change the Constitution in 1985

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/kristin-bricker/2009/07/michel... [14]

So?

In 1985 he was a member of congress, which is the proper body to propose changes to the consitution, not the presidency.

And the Honduran constitution has been amended virtually every year since it came into force in 1982 - it's not set in stone, it's just that only certain institutions (the legislature) are able to change it.

Some babblers seems determined to carry the line of imperialism, one way or another, on these threads. It's important, then, to reiterate the following in case other babblers are mislead by such garbage ...

It's not about Zelaya

So what's going on?

What about all the popular and mass movements?

And that's why organizations like the CLC expressed their solidarity the way they did. It's a question of where your social partisanships lie - with the super-rich, the military officers, and so on, or the ordinary people. Should the people be allowed to have a say? That is the question. Never mind the pro-fascist bullshit.

As of Thursday, we have the Yanqui sponsored "negotiations" between the military dictatorship and the overthrown elected President. It's a farce, compliments of Uncle Sam.

It seems, as well, that the International Republican Institute (IRI), the international arm of reaction and violence of the Republican Party in the USA, was discussing a coup in Honduras MONTHS AGO. USA! USA! How many kids did you KILL today?!

Fidel Castro Ruz: the Coup Dies or Constitutions Die

The old man always has something interesting to say and he also finds time to look to history to learn ...

It may be noteworthy that the Tudeh Party of Iran is not too busy to express solidarity with the Honduran people and working class. [19]

(.pdf file)

Thanks for all that nbeltov, interesting reads.

Honduras: US-backed mediation legitimizes military coup

Last week, on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, the US congress received representatives of the de facto Honduran regime. The news reports from the US are still re-interating the disgusting and despicable lies of the military regime ...

'sought to change its Constitution by seeking a second term as president ..."

This is, of course, a barefaced lie.

What's true is that the military objected to a non-binding referendum that involved the citizenry.

In other words, the Honduran President should "negotiate" with a military dictatorship while outside the country. Good job, President Obama. Way to talk out of one side of your mouth and watch events unfold in the opposite direction.

US House leaders do the usual Yanqui imperialist shuffle ...

Am I the only one who is starting to feel that the shine is coming off the Obabma administration? Still in Iraq, more trops in Afghanistan and now this. I guess more things change the more they stay the same.

Theyre all the same cosmetic leader in Washington since a US national security act was signed in 1947. And successive colonial administrativeships in Ottawa simply follow orders from corporate America aka the United Semi-Socialist States of America.

what act is that? never heard of it.

This is a decent intro to the subject: The U.S. National Security State

Honduras Emergency Response Delegation Report

The Russian media is regurgitating the same lies that UPI barfed up.

(highlighted by me) To re-iterate: the President of Honduras had planned to hold a consultative non-binding referendum on the right of the citizenry to make future constitutional changes. Those changes did NOT include extending his own term of office. His term was scheduled to end in November but, with the coup d'etat, has effectively already ended.

I dont think US or KKK'nadian newz media were as conciliatory about prior CIA and British efforts to destabilize the Balkans a dozen years ago, Chechnya etc.

Maybe not, but the bullshit is being spread far and wide and that, I think, is of interest to babblers and progressives alike.

1) this is awful, from #16 above:

"On Thursday, security forces detained the father of Isis Obed Murillo, the 19-year-old youth who was shot to death on July 5, when soldiers opened fire on demonstrators who had gathered at the Tegucigalpa airport as Zelaya made his abortive attempt to return to the country. The father, David Murillo, has spoken out since the killing, demanding justice for his son. He was grabbed by the national police after speaking at the headquarters of the Committee of Relatives of the Detained and Disappeared of Honduras and taken directly to a prison controlled by the military."

where is the father now? does Obama or anyone else in Congress, or our Parliament, give a damn?

2) on the comments at #6 etc. about the constituent 'poll', my understanding from the interview is that it was a short-form way of describing the initial referendum which, most importantly, would have decided upon a more extended process to set up a structure of resident participation in decision-making which, as noted at the earlier Honduras thread, may have involved a couple of years.

a good point from the Democracy Now interview linked at #1 that needs repeating:

"JUAN GONZALEZ: Mr. President, your opponents who engineered the coup claim that you were trying to subvert the constitution of 1982. What were you trying to do with the referendum that you were holding and is it true that as they say, your were trying to illegally extend your term?

MANUAL ZELAYA:[translated] That is completely false. In Honduras we do not have reelections and I never intended to be reelected. That will be a matter for another government, another constitution and another Constituent Assembly."

Thank you, thanks. I didnt realize Zelaya's intentions with the referendum until you posted that

Canada Supports the Military Coup in Honduras by Ashley Holley

Life-long guarantees to Canadian mining companies in a time of desperate need for Hondurans. It works for them. It reminds us of 99 year leases granted to lumber companies operating in Canada and rock-bottom stumpage fees and to mostly to American ones. Northern Canada is strewn with ghost towns after mineral barons stripped the land bare of natural wealth and left the country with profits in hand. It's an old story here and a new one for Hondurans. The so-called free market has operated by a very visible hand of bought and paid-for stooges in government and always has. Talk about taking advantage of the misery of others. Shock doctrine again?

"When money arrives, all is green, bustle, and abundance. And when it leaves, all is trampled down, barren and bare" - old Chinese proverb

"In other words, the Honduran President should "negotiate" with a military dictatorship while outside the country. Good job, President Obama. Way to talk out of one side of your mouth and watch events unfold in the opposite direction."

I think it's absolutely clear that the Obama Administration has been playing a game where they vocally denounce the coup, but nevertheless allow it to continue. Zelaya represents the new left in Latin America, epitomized by Chavez.

The U.S. has thus far played a very strong role in the deposition of the president, and has so far not even classified the event as a "coup," which would trigger an automatic freeze on all funds to Honduras.

1. Two more people, both important leaders and activists from the citizenry, were murdered by the military regime.

2. The national curfew remains and the regime continues to lie about lifting it.

3. Foreign journalists continue to be threatened, detained, and deported.

4. The military regime has hired high profile Yanqui "Democrats" to lobby on their behalf.

Another Clinton era lobbyist "Bennett Ratcliff of San Diego, another close friend and advisor of the Clinton's, was also hired by the coup government in Honduras" as "advisor".

5. The demands by the butchers of Honduran democracy are as follows:

1. a mock Presidency that will provide window dressing to the military regime;
2. a veto on any DISCUSSION on constitutional change; apparently,  the haven't finished killing the democratic pretensions of the Honduran citizenry;
3. join in the usual pathological anti-communist/anti-socialist xenophobia against more enlightened governments in Latin America;
4. See 1;
5. A free pass for the murderers of Roger Bados and Ramon Garcia, etc., etc., etc..

Nothing to add here, but I guess I should report that Layton's office did get back and informed me that, yes, they too condemn the illegal coup and call for Zelaya's return, as well as criticise the Canadian government's rather ambiguous response.  I'll post it here in full if its seen as appropriate by others.  Officialese but clear enough.   Now, if only they have enough gumption to publicise their views more widely.  

Well since there doesn't seem to be any protests at the idea, here it is:

The NDP could improve that by making reference to the financial support that Canada is continuing to provide the military regime in Honduras. This stuff is sometimes disguised in "police exchange programs", "assistance in drafting laws that reflect Canada's view of 'freedom'" (i.e., rewriting mining laws to better allow Canadian corporations to loot the country), and so on. Canada sometimes plays the role of strong arming other countries into voting along with the USA in international bodies that decide matters of credit, loans and so on that can sometimes be critical to the success, and survival, of a government.

MP Kent was a juicy target, and could hardly be missed, but it 's good to see that the NDP leader actually identifies the events as a coup, and calls for the return of the elected President. The military regime is now trying to impose conditions on such a return ... whereby the President would be effectively hog tied from doing very much of anything.

Once again we have a demonstration of the time-honoured historical fact that a series of crisis events can cause the people directly affected to move radically to the left. A couple of months ago, Zelaya was just another left-liberal bourgeois politician, but events since then have quickly altered his consciousness (as well as that of hundrends of thousands of Hondurans).

So just as the "shock doctrine" can be used by reactionary forces in a crisis, so too can situations of crisis and disorder quickly lead to a steep rise in political consciousness. That's why it is so important for left political parties to be prepared to play a leadership role when unanticipated social upheaval occurs.

For example, those who would have the NDP follow, rather than lead, the Canadian working class, would see their party quickly overtaken and left behind by mass consciousness in the event of a major social/political crisis.

I think we need to keep in mind that Canada is right next door to that last bastion of rightwing conservatism in the world with ~36% of US voters pledging allegiance to the Republican Party. We have Washington style lobbying in Ottawa since Mulroney. The "soft power" influence that country has on Canadian government and public psyche is probably greater here than most other countries. The NDP would be treading where angels fear to go. And I wish the NDP would lead and be a stronger nationalist voice for workers.

I think that with all the natural wealth in this country at the disposal of the neoliberal ideologues and the corporations, and with big banks hitching along for the ride with debt-driven capitalism - Canada has a long way to go before that ideology totally wrecks the economy and carts away the last of the oil and gas and massive amounts of hydroelectric power potential. Canada will be a naturally rich country for a long time coming no matter how much they rob us blind in the mean time. It's not like Sweden after the lumber barons stripped that country bare of timber and other resources before social democrats appealed to the masses there. And things are not nearly as bad here as they were for Cubans leading up to the late 1950's. Not even close.

Eva Golinger, outstanding bloggist, has itemized a huge list outlining the EVIDENCE for Washington's involvement in the coup d'etat.

It's irrefutable.

Eat shit, liberals. This is your man.

here's more of the same:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jul2009/hond-j15.shtml

Ex Clinton Aides Advising Honduras Coup Regime

"Ever since the military abducted President Manuel Zelaya at gunpoint on June 28 and expelled him from the country, the Obama administration has cast itself as a steadfast defender of "democracy" in Honduras. The real nature of that defense has become somewhat clearer with the news that key former aides to Secretary of State Hillary CLinton and her husband, former President Bill CLinton, have surfaced as top advisers to the illegal regime led by Robert Micheletti, which was installed by the coup..."

thanks for the updates here

Who's Behind Lanny Davis' Putsch Paycheck?

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2009/07/whos-behin...

"Enter Lanny Davis - a longtime friend and Yale Law School chum of Hillary Clinton and former White House Counsel to Bill Clinton. Davis is now scampering about the Hill setting up meetings with Congressional insiders and throwing money around on advertising and other frills to build a case for supporting the new militarily elected Honduran regime.."

Well it is certainly no question that the forces of American imperialism, i.e. - free market capitalism, are still waging their brutal wars against Latin American nations and their leaders. The obvious link here is the US hatred toward Castro, Chavez, Morales, and the progressive socialist political movements that have been going on for over 6 decades in the various regions. The Honduras coup is nothing new all we have to do is remember Ronald Reagan (yes, the American actor)and the 1980's. Latin American countries have been factories for failed US attempts at implementing free market 'miracles' in countless previous situations.  These 'miracles' always turn out to be total social disasters where the people and their society are directly ruined but capital counts its gains. We must always have the role of capital in mind because that is the purpose of these reactionary-extremist actions. The military is propped up and armed by outside capital interests and in this case, as in many others, the US is behind the flow of capital and arms to the military. This is not conspiracy, it is truth. 

The real question to be asked is what does the US want this time with Honduras? I mean do they want cheap labour, resources, influence in the region, etc? Maybe they want a combination of all these things and this is important to understand about the coup. One thing is for sure, the US is directly involved in the military coup and I don't think that anyone is arguing any differently but capital growth for American elites (i.e. - corporations) is likely the reason. Well done to President Obama for standing by the failed policies of Ronald Reagan - it looks good on his resume. So much for the policies of "change" and "hope" that were promised. It only took a few months for the US to take several steps backward in their relationship with the 'other' America. Back to business as usual, now that is "change" we can believe in, am I right? 

Both political and economic factors come into play I think. The US regime is feverish and blinded by rage in its opposition to ANY alternative to "the Washington Consensus" (now rotting in the sewer) or the prescriptions of neo-liberalism for Latin America in general. The current Cuban, Venezuelan and Bolivian governments fills the strategists of Yanqui imperialism with apoplectic paroxyms. So, any other example, even a tiny one, turns them white with rage. Think of the Guiliani approach to crime in New York City; "no broken windows", etc., is really an extreme reaction to the tiniest misdemeanor. In El Salvador under the US-sponsored death squad regime in the 1980's, the penalty for drunk driving was death. Death. The possibility of a further poltical beachead just cannot be tolerated, especially given that the Honduran President was by no means on the left, or the "far left", and was simply opening the door to wider participation of the citizenry.

That's the political side of things. But, of course, powerful economic interests in Honduras are linked with the military's kidnapping and forcible deportation of the elected President, Aristide-style, to Costa Rica. Outside economic interests, including, no doubt, Canadian ones, come to bear. And that is just as important a factor as the political ones.

It's not by accident that we on the left use the term "political economy" in descriptions of social life; it's an antidote and remedy to bird-brained and tendentious attempts to compartmentalize knowledge in order to deny the obvious. Like a coup d'etat. My two bits.

Thats not a bad point, Canadas role as Americas silent partner in the region could also use more public exposure, whether the broader public wants to hear it or not.

Well, it's objectively speaking, an anti-imperialist thrust. And that's far too radical for SOME in the NDP, never mind the Liberals or Conservatives. But it's always worth pushing these things, testing the boundaries of bourgeois politics, seeing how far/ how enlightened the parliamentary parties will be. In another discussion you might find me claiming that the easiest way to expose the failure of our Parliamentary parties is to delve into foreign/military policy; that's just the way it is for any so-called imperialist country like our own. But both of these can be true at the same time.

From my perspective as an unrepentant socialist, if the NDP doesn't move in this direction then it's just as useful to point out their (expected) failure in that regard. It provides prima facie evidence why Canada needs a successful party on the NDPs left; someone has to put forward a policy motivated by solidarity instead of profits and that is, after all, the duty of the left, no matter how small the numbers.

Another left wing party would have the effect of fracturing the left even moreso by our current  FPP electoral system. A PR system, however, should unite the left. And that's why the two old line parties voted down the NDP's proposal to restart a federal study on electoral reform in May of 2007.

Here we go again.

I wish the guy well, but I'm not optimistic.

If he couldn't even arrange to land his plane last week, what chance does he realistically have for success.

Aide: Ousted President en Route to Honduras

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/07/16/world/AP-LT-Honduras-Coup.htm...

The Obama administration is also pumping up, in a gigantic way, the US military presence in Colombia ... right next door to Venezuela.

I think Mott the Hoople described the psychology of the Empire very well in one  of their songs ...

http://soaw.org

The colder war on democracy continues

Secretary Clinton  Doesn't Get the Power of Non Violence in Honduras

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/secretary-clinton-doesn't-get-power-nonviolence-honduras

"As thousands of Honduran citizens peacefully blockaded the central highways of their nation yesterday, bringing its commerce under a coup regime to a halt, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton met in Washington with her Canadian and Mexican counterparts.."

Chiquita in Latin America

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23088.htm

"When the Honduran military overthrew the democratically elected government of Manuel Zelaya two weeks ago there might have been a sigh of relief in the corporate board rooms of Chiquita bananas. Earlier this year the Cincinatti based fruit company joined Dole in criticizing  the government in Tegucigalpa which had raised the minimum wage by 60%..."

Zelaya Accepts Unity Government Proposal

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Honduras+Zelaya+accepts+unity+governme...

"Honduras' ousted President Manuel Zelaya agreed on Saturday to a power sharing government as a way out of his country's political crisis, but his enemies rejected any deal that puts him back in the presidency.."

Honduras: The Nonviolent Battle for the Zelaya Home in Catacamas

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/honduras-nonviolent-battle-zel... [57]

"While the negotiation circus continues up above - there is a more outcome determinative struggle going on from below. We have received many reports from other regions of Honduras that indicate the same level of unity, planning and discipline at play from the public and the same panicked overreaction from the coup regime.."

Human Rights Report Reveals Brutal Repression in Honduras

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jul2009/hond-j20.shtml

"A preliminary report issued by the Committee of the Families of the Disappeared Defenders in Honduras (COFADEH) the country's leading human rights group, exposes the criminality of the Obama administration's policy and of the Democratic apologists for the coup.."

Five Things the Corporate Media Doesn't Want You to Know about the Coup in Honduras

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/weblogs/dawn/2795

Goldcorp paying employees to participate in pro-coup marches

 Honduran unions call general strike [excerpt]

Latest news, as shown on the excellent Honduras Resists blog:

excellent source here's more:

Honduran Democracy Can Only Be Asserted from Below:

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/honduran-democracy-can-only-be...

"The hour approaches when international solidarity against the coup can best help the resistance by simply getting out of the way, allowing the Honduran people to reassert their democracy, and by accurately reporting and translating each step of their emerging history so that it does not occur in darkness.."

If US plans for a resumption of regional control, then neither pre-coup Zelaya, nor Honduran control of "one of the few usable airfields available to US on Latin American soil," would be acceptable to Washington. Venezuelan influence is also anathema obviously. The presence of Negroponte is a good indicator of geostrategic importance and impending shitstorms. I would expect they will try to grind away at popular resistance internally while either undermining or dealmaking with Zelaya and/or the coupsters. We'll see what the Honduran people have to say to all this in the coming days..

Ok, back to here again, I'm sorry if I'm not keeping up, I can't spend much time online anymore and tend to lose my place.  My eyes are going on me too. 

Re imperialism, I was just demonstrating that the NDP does take a stand on this, for all the good any of it does, and I have some real differences with some of the rather particular definitions of imperialism used here (and intend on making an issue of it again before I go on vacation again) but if you think Canada needs another party to the left then I say go for it.  Its entirely up to you though, you can't expect any favours from anyone. 

Personally I don't see it as a very good time for any more splits on the centre to left, as the majority is still miles away from anything remotely radical, the right is as crazy as ever and noones even thought of creating a serious media presence on the left as yet, but WTF, in the longer run it just might be for everyones good.

Hillary and Obama Nix Change in Honduras

http://www.counterpunch.org/burbach07272009.html

"the growing conflict represents a failure of the Obama administration to reshape US policy towards Latin America in spite of its early rhetoric directed at leaders of the region.."

Eric, my point was that the NDP isn't anti-imperialist as a rule. As an exception, MAYBE. But that's a kind of minimum for genuine socialists and, therefore, there's a need for a left ... period. The NDP isn't it. Fer Chrissake, the NDP doesn't even deal with the issue of participation in a military alliance with the Great Satan, the USA ...

You mean NATO?  Getting out of NATO has been part of NDP policy forever, at least officially.   Whether they'd have the nerve to push it in power has to remain an open question still.  Tho I don't think putting it in terms of "Great Satan" versus the rest of the world would help that case domestically.  :)   If youre talking Israel/Palestine and Afghanistan, weve been over this here before but theyve been on the left side of other elected parties consistently if not entirely consistent internally no.  I've agreed on that much before.  Whether their statements are "socialist" enough or not is still open for interpretation but also largely moot IMV given their highly limited position, never having formed government even in our international backwater.  Far as I see theres isn't complete unanimity among socialists either re what is imperialism and what isn't, or by whom, and as has been the case forever theres not even much agreement among socialists on what the word itself entails exactly, beyond a few vague generalities.  I sometimes call myself a socialist in spirit, sometimes not, but I generally resist all labels, especially ones that bring out so many immediate assumptions in others.  Why I changed my handle here twice.  But thats just me.  I don't know what else to say here. 

If socialist is whatever someone says it is, then I'm sure "socialist" justifications for the official NATO doctrine of first strike nuclear war can be found fairly easily. That just shows, however, what sort of "socialist" one is. The term becomes meaningless.

Yves Engler's Black Book of Canadian Foreign Policy is just one book of many that outlines the many atrocities of Canadian imperialism. And, lest it be forgotten, anti-imperialism is still a very, very long way from a socialist perspective. Pro-capitalist bourgeois parties in the developing world are natural anti-imperialists. They have to be.

Anti-imperialism may be nothing at all to white wine socialists in Canadian urban centres. It is a matter of life and death to, say, the Honduran masses, who are discovering again what the Empire, which social democrats claim doesn't exist, will do when a Central American President decides to consult the citizenry about their democracy. Give your head a slap. There's an entire universe to the left of the NDP.

Beltov, I'm sure theyre good reading and I might check em out when I have time, but Canadas history internationally has little to do with what the NDP has ever had to say.  Or those who see themselves to the NDP's left.  I never said there weren't people who see themselves to the left of the NDP but that was never my point, and that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with them on everything either, nor does it mean that they always agree amongst themselves either.  But so what?  I also wrote yesterday that if you thought it was time to form another party you think is to the NDPs left then go ahead, its up to you.  Just don't expect any favours from others who don't share all your views on imperialism or economics or whatever.   I don't know what else you expect from me here.

Obama's rollback strategy: Honduras, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan

by James Petras [excerpt]

Re Erik: It's not just that such left wing/socialist views should be represented in public debate, whether from a political party or not (which is a secondary and diversionary issue), but that the NDP has successfully contributed to the silencing and marginalizing of such views and, therefore, takes some of the responsibility for this failure.

On Honduras and consultative referendums ... Peru, whose mining sector is now completely dominated by Canadian capitalists, has been the scene of Canadian ecological atrocities, slaughter of peaceful protestors, and assassination of civic political leaders critical of Canadian business practices. The Canadian military and JTF-2 death squads have also been active there.

Anyway, what is very relevant to the coup d'etat in Honduras is that a nonbinding community referendum was held regarding Canadian corporate activity in the Tomborgrande municipality of Peru, which resulted in an overwhelming success and forced the company - Vancouver based Manhattan Minerals - to put their project on hold. It "became a model for resistance to Canadian mining elsewhere in Latin America." (p. 83 The Black Book of Canadian Foreign Policy, Yves Engler)

If you oppose Canadian imperialism, and not just engage in NDP-style arm waving and finger-wagging, then you should support such referendums that encourage citizen involvement. The President of Honduras was kidnapped and deported from his own country in a coup d'etat for planning to hold such a referendum.

One comment from a UK discussion board: "It hasn't taken long for the benign Obama mask to slip off the assassin's face."

I think it's about time the NDP changed that, don't you?

Spector, I don't believe that you intended such an interpretation, but there are some in the NDP who would like to see a turn towards imperialism, away from internationalism and solidarity, and such "unpleasant" union-influenced approaches, and would be happy to see NDP policy match a more predatory Canadian practice and policy.

I think Erik was, in any case, arguing for the unimportance of the NDP approach to foreign policy, as not influential, but it's my view he's failed to see the harmfulness in such an approach.

Whereas I was arguing for the importance of the NDP's recognizing "Canada's history internationally" for what it truly is, and incorporating that recognition into their policy and propaganda efforts.

Well if most left of centre people in CAnada actually voted for them they might have the chance to do so someday, but of course thats not what you mean.  I am glad I was able to dispel the notion that Layton and Co supported this coup or that they support our particpation in NATO but I know OC it will never be enough.

Thursday, Bloody Thursday in Honduras

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/thursday-bloody-thursday-hondu...

"the full toll of Thursday, Bloody Thursday in Honduras, has not yet been counted.."

What, an NDP government is going to rewrite Canada's imperialist history? I bloody well hope not.

But of course that's not what you mean.

The Honduran Coup as Overture

http://www.counterpunch.org/fox07312009.html

"Why such leniency towards the de fact coup plotters? Would the Taliban be permitted to hire a Clinton Lobbyist? Negotiations have helped to legitimize the Micheletti regime, while Zelaya is blamed for the violence. This is a coup not only to Honduras, but to all of Latin America. Regional tensions could quickly escalate, which is perhaps exactly what Washington has on the agenda.."

Zelaya Speaks:

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/22175 [82]

"we bring you an  interview with the ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya, who is on the border with Honduras and Nicaragua on the Nicaraguran side. I spoke to president Zelaya on Wednesday afternoon, a month after he was seized by armed soldiers and flown out of his country.."

Canada Keeps Funding Honduran Military

http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1249008080.html [83]

President Micheletti supports return of Zelaya

Crackdown on democracy

Honduras: the hooded face of dictatorship

Of course its not, what ever made you think it was?  I for one don't believe history is destiny.  Second, my only point was the NDP can't be held personally responsible for this record, as was being implied.  Third, making broad declarations on Canada's sad role internationally is neither the NDP's main job domestically nor would it be a particularly effective tactic, certainly not without looking at the whole history of imperialism on the part of all major players.  I do however think the NDP can make statements regarding redress for Japanese citizens who were interned during WWII or the need to address the effects of colonianism towards "our" own aboriginal peoples, that kind of thing.  That they've done before and I hope to see more of it in the future.   I love how what I write is so often answered at right angles.

The biggest concern for Canadians right now is the economy. And unfortunately our FPTP electoral system rewards the lying liars the most trustworthy party telling the most believable lies about top national concerns ranked 1 & 2 and maybe even #3 during an election campaign, and appealing to some large minority of the electorate. And I'm afraid that our dated electoral system has already succeeded in frustrating half of Canadians to the point where they will never vote again regardless of the promises which they know will only be broken by the same two political parties monopolizing federal power since 1867. Foreign policy? That's a good one. Canadians are tuned out for the most part. What would be the point when election promises dealing with domestic policies are reduced to throwing Canadians to the free market wolves. Health care is high on the list, and our two rigthwing parties havent really dared to pawn it off for peanuts to private enterprise jackals, so that's a big one theyre still avoiding to deal with in these years of waning neoliberal ideology

I think that to consider one's self a progressive person, at the very least one would need to pick one of the 20 some odd registered political parties in Canada and vote for change on a consistent basis. I've picked the NDP.

What does any of that have to do with the Honduran coup?

Well we have no one in government or official opposition condemning the US-backed military coup for starters. And while the Yanks are refocussing on 'buy American" economic strategy, our stooges want us to buy American, too. They dont intend to rock the boat where Uncle Sam or his backyard is concerned. Our stooges have been rewarding rather than challenging the great Satan for a long time. Our obsolete electoral system isnt meant to foment an outbreak of democracy in general here at home never mind encouraging democracy among our neighbors.

Protestor Dies as Honduras Regime Threatens Crackdown

http://www.alternet.org/rss/breaking_news/77497/protester_dies_as_hondur...

"A Honduras teacher died 3 days ago after he was shot in the head while protesting the ouster of President Manuel Zelaya, as the military-backed regime threatened to crack down on future demonstrations.."

Canada's Increasingly Complicit Role in Honduras

http://www.rightsaction.org/Alerts/Honduran_coup_alert41_080209.html [92]

"a response to Peter Kent"

Manuel Zelaya: "We will not be brought to our knees"

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14630 [93]

"Under the constitution the people have the right to resistance and rebellion if somone assumes power by force.."

 The Conservative Counter Attack in Latin America

http://www.counterpunch.org/salas08072009.html

"I would submit that events in Honduras are not isolated, but rather part of a conservative counterattack taking shape in Latin America...For some time the right has been rebuilding in Latin America.."

Will Venezuelan Destabilization follow the Honduran Coup?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14681 [95]

"After 10 1/2 years in office, Hugo Chavez is very savy about America's intentions. On Jan 17, even before Obama's inauguration, he said "Barack Obama has the 'stench' of his predecessor.."

US State Department Spells Out US Stand on Honduras:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/hond-a07.shtml [96]

"The State Department letter began by assurring Lugar that the claim that the Obama administration is backing Zelaya is a misunderstanding.."

Canada Joins OAS Delegation to Honduras

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/08/07/kent-oas-zelaya-honduras.html

"Canada's Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Peter Kent has been named by the Organization of American States as part of a delegation that will try to persuade the interim government in Honduras to reinstate ousted President Manuel Zelaya.."

Honduras Coup Generals Break Silence

http://www.narconews.com/Issue59/article3743.html [98]

"Military leaders claim coup was necessary to protect the US from 'socialism dressed as democracy

Washington staged the coup to promote a number of closely interacting aims:

• To strike a blow at the ALBA alliance, by taking out its assumed "weakest link" - Honduras, and its member government headed by Zelaya.
• To prepare for an assault on revolutionary Venezuela, prefaced through the announcement of new U.S. military basis that will convert Colombia into a gigantic aircraft carrier and platform for staging hostile operations against ALBA countries, with Ecuador and Bolivia also high up on the list.
• To "take back" Honduras, and again use it as a platform to strike out against leftwing presidencies and mass movements in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua, and to demoralize and discourage the grassroots support for those disobedient or defiant regimes.
• To test Latin America's turbulent waters for a revival of coup-making in Latin America and the Caribbean. And, to use it as a laboratory for coup-making under present 21st-Century conditions. This involves attempting to re-inspire and regroup rightwing supporters in both political and military spheres across the hemisphere. It also took a measure of where the powerful Catholic Church would fall. A free Bible if you guess right.
• To probe South America's "soft underbelly" - mainly Brazil and Chile - to see if they were amenable to a deal, or at least if their silence could be purchased. This involves an effort to drive a wedge between the ALBA Alliance and so-called centre-left regimes (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chile).

Toppling the Coup 1

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/toppling-coup-part-i-dilemmas-...

"more than 100 rank and file participants in the Honduran civil resistance and some of its leaders came out to speak with Ivan Marovich, the Serbian resistance veteran.."

Marovich is also a boardgame entrepreneur associated with ICNC a Washington based NGO.

http://www.wemfmedia.org/globalmedia.htm [102]

Marovich "the Serbian resistance veteran", is also associated with ICNC a Washington based ngo. The above link to their site provides the following information:

"non violent struggles for democracy and human rights are presently under way around the world. Award winning filmmaker, Steve York who has chronicled successful non-violent struggles in the documentary films, A Force More Powerful, and Bringing Down a Dictator, indentified three "hot" spots: Iran, Zimbabwe and Venezuela."

sounds dodgy to me and likely CIA. Makes sense the Americans would be working it from both sides now..

At their press conference today in Guadalajara, Obama accused opponents of the coup in Honduras of being hypocrites -- and Harper jumped in to echo the point, and throw in a plug for the arming of the paramilitaries' president Uribe in Colombia...

hypocrisy: pretending to have beliefs that you don't really have.

Apparently, thinking that the United States should intervene when it is a question of doing "good" and NOT intervene when it is just another Yanqui imperial atrocity is ... hypocrisy. After all, bootlicker Harper sez so as well.

It is not hypocrisy, however, to train those who carried out the coup d'etat, continue to provide financial and economic aid to the new, unelected regime, as well as continue with military exchanges, etc. with the same regime while as the same time making the sternest "demands" for the regime to respect democracy. The regime of US President Obama sez so.

What an Orwellian regime. And Canada is in a military alliance with this regime. The Americans may be covered in blood but Canada is wiping the blood off, holding the bully's coat, and carrying out assignments appropriate to a servant of evil. 

US-backed Honduran death squad 3-16 reactivated

Putschists in Tegucigalpa and Warshington are working overtime

Argentina removes Honduran ambassador, at Zelaya's request, because of her public support for the coup

Israeli Commandos with Experience in Palestine and Colombia Are Training the Honduran Armed Forces

http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=8345&lg=en

What Obama Could Do in Honduras

http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?lg=en&reference=8157 [108]

For those who might have missed it - here is another excellent Yves Engler piece from the Rabble frontpage:

http://www.rabble.ca/news/2009/08/canadian-media-silent-resistance-hondu...

"the dominant Canadian media's coverage of the coup in Honduras has been atrocious"

Some quotes from our fearless old line party leaders:

Declaration of the ALBA Political Council on Honduras

In the original Spanish ... [112] (pdf file)

It's good to see the ALBA member states working together in a common cause even if the circumstances are a coup d'etat that has the blessing, and mock opposition, of Yanqui imperialism.

Cracks in the Honduran regime grow wider

Honduras: human rights crisis threatens as repression increases (.pdf)

- Amnesty International report

Well, Amnesty seems to be on the case (see above), but where's Human Rights Watch?

The Coup and Honduran Women

http://counterpunch.org/carlsen08262009.html

"There is a saying in Honduras about the Central American dirty war that 'While the US had its eye on Nicaragua and its hands in El Salvador, it had its boot on Honduras.."

Why the Honduran right had to get rid of Zelaya (nothing to do with constitutional tinkering):

New Socialist

This thread continues HERE

And ends here!