Invisible US death machines spy on Canadians from the air

Damn those cloaking devices.

______________________________________________________________________________________________ We are like cloaks, one thinks of us only when it rains.

Homeland Stupidity feds wanna make sure we're not dumping softwood in  America as per free trade access to their markets?

Reported two months ago here:

Drone planes to begin on Canada US border. 

Why are you calling unarmed drones "death machines"?  How are they going to kill people?  Fly into them?

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

I don't know Sven. How about we listen to your reaction had the situation been reversed. Perhaps we could fly war planes over the US, for a little spying.

What, it wouldn't go over well? It wouldn't be what the American people want? Respect us, and we'll respect you, and this is no sign of respect. We are not a dumping ground for the US' war play toys. Period. 

Oh. The drones are flying in Canadian airspace? The article did not make that clear. 

Quote from the OP:

"The drone is equipped with high-definition sensors that can spot an object as far as 35 kilometres away, and will fly as close as 15 km to the Canadian border, giving it the ability to spy on everyone and anything in Canada within 20 km of the border. The drones are invisible to people on the ground."

I know, the american military would NEVER spy on Canada.

What choice does Canada have seeing as these drones are not intruding over Canada's air space?

I didn't say anything about the drones not being "spy machines".  Rather, I was asking why an unarmed drones were called "death machines".

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

And, as far as "spying" goes, the US has had "spy satellites" covering the world, including Canada, for many decades.   

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Isnt Canada using similar drones in Afghanistan?

It's a far bigger step, in term of logistics, to deploy these drones, than to take the additional (small) step of adding weapons to them.

Given the usage history of these devices, I am concerned that they might be deployed over the Continental US, and to hear that they have been deployed over Canada.

The organizations that typically deploy these war-toys have a long history of not being concerned about people's health.

It's basically a flying gun with infrared & daylight cameras attached - but no bullets - yet.

As far as the kind of infrared cameras - for example

http://www.l-3com.com/seo/products/mx12.htm [14]

http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/pages/news_releases.html?d=42683 [15]

There was a blog article about a year and a half ago about these war toys being deployed in a base near Yuba City (near Lake Tahoe, Ca & Nevada).

I look to the hobbyists known as plane-spotters (who did some key work regarding CIA renditions, amateurs though they may be) to provide more info.

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http://LASIK-Flap.com [16] ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery

No. The Canadian drones are windup devices with limited range.

But maybe we're one up on the days when B52s  with Dr. Strangelove bomb loads flew to the Arctic and back, always a few in the air. Used to watch them fly up the Moisie River valley near you, Boom Boom - 1959-60.

Farley Mowat got on the U.S. deep dung list (no humour there), for saying he fired his .22 at them eight miles up(he's changed the story lately to say it was a shotgun - but that's our Farley).

And I guess these death dealers don't do bad weather. Something about thermal detectors not worth a fart in rain, cloud, fog, snow. Doesn't sound like they're built for Canadian weather, really. Only deserts.We're safe for the time being.

It's up to USA citizens to protest if they do not like them over the USA, but the news report did not say they were being deployed over Canada. 

Hmmm.  I'm not sure it's that big of a deal to "deploy" the drones.  All that is happening is that they are sent up in the air from Grand Forks.  In other words, I'm not sure it's any more difficult to "deploy" the drones than to take the additional step of arming them.

Besides, if Canadians are concerned about the US military firing missles from drones (thus turning them into "death machines"), the US military could do that just as easily today with cruise missles and, near as I can tell, no one in Canada is up in arms (pun intended) about the U.S. having the ability to launch cruise missles into Canada.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

This is a picture of a death machine:

Is it loaded with ammo? Does that make a difference as to whether it is a death machine?

Maybe you could advise your military in Afghanistan that they are wasting their time using Predator drones to kill Pakistanis, when they could just as easily be using cruise missiles for the same purpose. I'm sure they will slap their foreheads and thank you for your insight.

No. And if I didn't have a couple of cousins down that way, having the border hermetically sealed would be ok too. The cruise missile was first tested over Canadian territory (the Yukon) and I have never forgiven Stephen Lewis who, as Canadian ambassador to U.N. (a Mulroney appointee), did not object.

They were hard times - and yeah, I guess he's forgiven.

Maybe you missed these points:

1. The whole purpose of using these drones is to spy on movement of people and things along the Canadian side of the border. They want to spot the "terrorists" before they get onto US soil.

2. The technology is such that they do not need to fly directly over Canada in order to spy on Canada.

3. In the event of hostilities, what makes you think the US will respect Canadian air space? They certainly don't in Pakistan.

4. The whole program is a testing ground for the improvement of surveillance technology, that will provide useful data to allow the development of even more powerful tools for Big Brother to watch you.

5. Your government doesn't give a shit because they are allied with the US government against you.

I suppose, using your definition, a commercial airliner is a "death machine" because it could potentially be used as a weapon.  Likewise, a butcher's knife is a "death machine" in the wrong hands.

I'm just saying that applying the term "death machine" to these drones is to hyperventilate with hyperbole.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Yep.  Canada is just like Pakistan. :rollyeyes:

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

I didn't say Canada is just like Pakistan. But there are some similarities.

We both share borders with countries that are occupied by US armed forces.

We are both eyed with suspicion by the US government as safe havens for "terrorists".

We both have governments that are compliant allies of the US and wouldn't dare compalin about these assaults on our privacy and sovereignty.

We are both of geopolitical strategic importance to US imperialism, and any attempt to break out of the griop of US imperialism will be met with threats and hostility.

Besides, if the US doesn't respect the air space of Pakistan, why would it feel compelled to respect the air space of anyone else? It's not as if they have never violated the air space of dozens of countries - even when not officially "at war" with them.

I wouldn't say that a lamb and a grizzly bear are identical, but there are some eerie similarities:

They both have four legs.

They are both mammals.

Neither of them can fly.

Both are inferior killing machines relative to humans.

So, yeah, I can understand why Canada should be just as concerned about the U.S. military as Pakistan.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

I guess we will have to have our wedding parties at least twenty miles inside our border.  Poor Niagara Falls, it could mean a serious loss of revenue for them.

Would be funn to drive up to the border with a few aluminum tubes strapped to the roof racks.

Speaking of Niagara Falls.

I visited Niagara on the Lake a year or so ago.  From Canadian soil, you can *see into the United States and spy on everyone there* . . . within a couple of hundred meters.

I suppose if you stood amongst the trees, you would also be invisible.

Of course, people are also capable of being armed.

I wonder when M. Spector is going to make a hysterical thread to the effect that "Invisible Canadian death machines spy on the U.S. from the ground"? 

I don't have a problem with MS's OP.  I think Harper's gov't is in complicity with the US on the question of "homeland security" on the Canadian side of the border - I believe Harper and crew would love to see arrests on the Canadian side attributed to the spy efforts of these US drones, as a prelude to Canada launcing its own drones all along the border and elsewhere. The govt probably sees these things as cheap and more effective security, and also as effective for spying on our civillian hotspots, and probably the vast expanses of the north as well, including the Northern Passage. We probably don't have enough planes as it is to do regular and routine surveillance along our impossibly long coastlines and maybe the govt will use drones there as well.

[dead link removed by M.S. June 2011]

I am no fan of Harper but seriously what can Canada do about the USA flying drones over their side of the border.

Dick all!!!

The two major political parties in Canada are trying their best to merge us with the USA, so the best I can do politically is to vote for the NDP. Unfortunately not enough Canadians support my choice. 

Do you seriously think that Harper objects to this?

And if he did, do you seriously think he would keep quiet about it?

And if he didn't keep quiet about it, do you seriouisly think the US would go ahead with their spy program over Harper's objections?

The reality is that Harper is completely on board with this. This is all about the agenda for continental integration of the military, security, and economy as promoted and thoroughly discussed in the Security and Prosperity Partnership. This is all about Canada becoming the 51st state in all but name.

Libs, Tories, what's the difference?

- Tariq Ali 

Fully in agreement, MS.

Do you think that if the NDP was in power that the U.S. would refrain from flying unarmed drones in U.S. airspace?

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Is that a trick question?

Why would Canada want to hitch a ride onto the failing American Empire? Canada needs to connect more with the rest of the planet. You know, diversification. It's not good economics to have too many eggs in one basket.

Not at all.  My point is that, with respect to drones flying in U.S. airspace, I don't think it matters if Harper or Layton is the P.M. of Canada.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

No, I think they would be flying armed drones. 

Sven does have a point. The US will do what it wants to do. That much is clear.

Sven:

"So, yeah, I can understand why Canada should be just as concerned about the U.S. military as Pakistan."

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You talk about lambs, grizzlies and other irrelevancies, Sven.

The real reason for our concern is drawn from experience - the great unread of the U.S. are so dumbed-down that Sarah Palin would be vice-president today if the bankers had not fucked up in their greed, gone overboard, or if their mendacity had come to light only in 2009.

We can't trust a people so dumbed down and greedy to do the right thing with such incredible military technology, Sven. Certainly not those drawing on such loopy "logic" as yours.

Right.  Canadians would never make decisions like that.  Never.  Just those "dumbed down and greedy" Amerikans.

It wasn't intended as "logic".  It was simply unadulterated snarkiness.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Even if it's uncomfortable, if the  shoe fits, Sven, wear the damned thing.

Don't look around for excuses. Read Jacoby and Gore on the subject of the American view of a responsible citizenry, Sven. You'll have trouble finding people who see themselves as something more than consumers and taxpayers.

Go for self analysis, not the big copout of the conservative, "human nature."

Can you direct me towards a link, please?

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Al Gore, The Assault on Reason.
Susan Jacoby, The Age of American Unreason.

Okay.  I thought you might be referring to Susan Jacoby's book.  I was just reading many of the reader comments about her book on Amazon.com.  Looks quite interesting, actually.  Also, a predecessor book that many highly rreviewers ecommended was Richard Hofstadter's 1963 book called "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life".  I may be inclined to start with that book.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

There's a military term that is applicable to the discussion -

 "Force Multiplier"

 There's a reason the US military doesn't drop pallets of teacups on their targets - it doesn't work very well.

The UAV's are a force multiplier for the US military.

Given the record of the US military - a long history of attacks on civilians - the relevant question for Canadian (and American) civilians is, "how can we prevent these war toys from attacking us ?"

The UAV's are essentially large radio-controlled airplanes.  That should provide a hint.

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http://LASIK-Flap.com ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery

It's not just about defending the border against illegal aliens, of course. It's about providing eye-in-the-sky surveillance capability to keep tabs on the movements of civilians in their own country.

Like when the Olympics comes to Canada.

Globe and Mail

Sven: 

"Okay.  I thought you might be referring to Susan Jacoby's book.  I was just reading many of the reader comments about her book on Amazon.com.  Looks quite interesting, actually.  Also, a predecessor book that many highly rreviewers ecommended was Richard Hofstadter's 1963 book called "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life".  I may be inclined to start with that book."

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It is an interesting look at the birth of the anti-intellectual "movement" from McCarthy's time, but Jacoby will tell you how the  Heartland of 'Merica  was created in period since then. 

Not sure you are going to understand your situation today without seriously pursuing Jacoby...today.  Gore is more on about the news media's surrender.

Well, I've already ordered a copy of Hofstadter's book (I found a 1963 copy of the book in hardcover for three bucks online).  I want to read the standard-setter in understanding the history of anti-intellectualsim.  Jacoby's book may be next for a current look.

By the way, I found an interesting review of Jacoby's book on salon.com.  And, as I said above, there are some well-written reviews of her book by readers on Amazon.com.  It certainly sounds intriguing.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Enlightening.

This is pure theater. Since there are no hoards of evildoers streaming across the border from Saskatchewan to force white christian girls to wear burkhas, and we know that the national security state knows that, they must have some other reason in mind.

Likely, this is more about keeping americans in, than terrorists out.

Also, like someone commented on commondreams, they only allow us to see what they want us to see. What else is really going on?

The lines between law enforcement and military are so blurred now as to be meaningless. This is just one more thing added to the mix of kevlar helmets, APCs patrolling inner cities, automatic weapons for beat cops, and the constantly reinforced culture of the police/military who believe themselves to be at war against the citizen they ostensibly serve. 

This brings to mind the story from a couple of years back about KBR building concentration camps around the US, for things like "immigration emergencies", or "civil unrest". Considering the implosion of the world economy, and the millions of Americans unemployed, homeless, and without any social supports, that decision to build those camps begins to look mighty prescient. Almost crystal ballish. But I'm sure it's all purely coincidence. 

Heating of the North American climate has not yet reached the point where migration across  borders is from south to north at this latitude.

I liked your first explanation. "Theatre."  For the edification of voters with the malleable imagination of the great unread. And "spooks" do not like their names or schemes up in lights.

They're probably just looking for drug smugglers. I don't know what other kind of 'spying' they could possibly do that would mean anything. I have no fear of them launching attacks on Canadian soil, like they do in Pakistan.

I mean, c'mon. Everyone knows that Americans only kill mostly brown countrymen with impugnity.

The way I see it, they need their money for way more important things, right now. And the deeper in debt they go just to show that they're still the big 'I am', the better.

Give it a few years. They'll be selling those predators off on Ebay when they can't afford to import any more oil

"War is a racket" - Gen. Smedley Butler, USMC

No, they are looking for anyone trying to sneak into the paradise on Earth known as the United States of America. 

So what was that reference to offering to help out with the Olympics?

Yeah, that's what the Pakistanis were saying ten years ago.

What do you suppose they would do in the event of widespread civil unrest in this country? If Stephen Harper asked his new pal Obomba to help him maintain domestic order by using the drones to keep an eye on suspicious movements of civilians within Canada, do you think O would refuse? 

Maybe you haven't noticed, but there are a lot of brown people in Canada.

And the US doesn't just kill people out of racism; it will kill anyone, regardless of skin colour, who they believe is a threat to their hegemony and their profits.

Like escalating the war in Afghanistan and giving million-dollar retention bonuses to the robber barons who precipitated the stock market crash.

Yeah, they're being real careful with their money these days...

As if none of that economic pain ever rubs off on us...

As far as looking for drug smugglers, my own using days are far far in the past, but I recollect the traffic moving north rather than south.  Things have come to a sad pass indeed if there's actually a USian market for my buddy in Penetang's home grown.

I think it's an instinctual knee-jerk paranoia. There are still a lot of ostensibly well educated people at higher levels who think at least some of the 911 perps came in through Canada.  This paranoia has no doubt been hightened when one of these geniuses was briefed on 'Little Mosque on the Prairie'.

Yeah.

Fortunately, we have other trading partners. Because they aren't going to be able to afford much of anything, pretty soon. Let alone to keep flying predators through our airspace.

Thank Harper and his willingness to get into bed with Bush over the 'North American Defense' shizzle, or whatever it was they called it.

Hey, maybe someday they'll invade. That'll be tough on them.

Meanwhile, this is just more of America playing the infant, and trying to rule a world that it can't control. 

On that point, specifically, I would think you would be praising the USA for doing something within its borders for a change.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

It comes with difficulty, but that was a cool summation...right on, Sven. We used to think that an isolationist America was bad  (1939-41), but it looks better today. Now let's see it go all the way.

That used to be the case but now the flow is south for pot to bring north cocaine and guns.

Nah, they do plenty within their own borders, already. They didn't get that nifty police state by magic, you know.

I'm not inclined to 'praise' them for much of anything, if it's all the same to you, Sven.