The Iranian Election and Its Aftermath

As does mine.

Witnesses: Iran police attack hundreds of protest

Iranian police and pro-government militia attacked and scattered hundreds of protesters in a demonstration in Iran's capital Saturday, witnesses said.

The protests were in response to the demonstrations being held around the world calling for the Iranian government to release opposition activists, one of the witnesses told The Associated Press.

Protesters in Vanak and Mirdamad districts chanted "death to the dictator" and "we want our vote back" before they were attacked and beaten by police.

The witnesses spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation.

As night fell, Iranians across the city gathered on their rooftops and chanted "death to the dictator" and "courageous neighbors, thank you for your support," apparently in response to the protests around the world.

Hundreds of activists have since been imprisoned in the ensuing crackdown and at least 20 have died.

Protesters across the world call for end to Iran human rights abuses

Protesters across the world on Saturday called on Iran to end its clampdown on opposition activists, demanding the release of those rounded up.

Groups including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International "are backing a global day of action, with protests planned in more than 80 cities.

The protesters want Iranian authorities to release what they say are hundreds, or even thousands, of people detained during protests that followed the presidential election last month that returned Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to power.

Clearly this is a popular uprising put down by the vicious repressive regime:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1102723.html

Peech:

I'm not sure if your tiny world view is capable of assimilating this---you don't seem bright enough to actually be capable of thinking about things--but I'd very much like to see the theo-thugocracy in Iran replaced by an internally arising truly democratic government. 

The views you (a la Glavin) ascribe to some decadent "the left" are  a strawman (a collective misrepresentation)---as a number of post replies in response to his original article in the Tyee point out (unlike his blog he can't delete those responses he doesn't like).

Contrariannna:

I don't know if your tiny puny little  brain crammed full of out-dated ideology  can figure this out, but there has been an overwhelming silence from the "progressive left" who are obsessed with that  "Zionist entity" as the root of all evil  as evidenced by many  on Babble who have accused Israel of initiating the uprising. How's that for a collective straw man?

I just love it when  bullies like you go on the personal attack because your precious views are threatened. It only reinforces the fact that you are totally and utterly ......... irrelevant.

That's a dirty lie. Name one person on Babble who has done such a thing.

Whoops - you can't? Oh. That goddam script from Langley Tel Aviv wherever isn't working. Where's version 2.0? Omigod, what am I gonna do? I'm dealing with people that are way smarter than I am. Please, God, send me instructions!

"...the rage of Caliban seeing his own face in a glass"

-Oscar Wilde

I do recall someone claiming that the twitter updates from Iran originated from Israel. though I don't remember who posted it.

Anyways, the protest in Queen's park went well. People were a little late but I think a couple of thousands attended. Richmond Hill MPP Reza Moridi and a couple of federal MPs (Jasson Kenney from conservatives and someone from NDP too) spoke. I had to leave early though (around 1:00PM).

Ignorance is bliss:

Cueball:

" That is interesting. What is also interesting is this call is made to the "left", as a general group. When we puruse most of the aforelinked to bloggery what do we find? We find quotes from "a British leftist" and so on and so forth. Who is "a british leftist"? These wild eyed attacks against unnamed persons amount to a stinking pile of straw shit.

Straw shit mind you, not to disimillar to the accussations made by many Zionist appologists who make undefined charges of anti-semetism against unamed "leftists" who are in league with antisemites, and so on.

Good criticism comes with names and quotes attached.

Galvin and yourself are only adding credibility to the claim that the Iranian movement for change is in the pocket of the Zionists, or at least serves its interests. The last thing they need is a pack of Zionists lining up to show their support for Mousavi."

http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/iran-protests-2

Of course he was only speaking "hypothetically"

Forgot this gem of perverse logic from teh same thread:

July 20, 2009 - 2:28pm
#94 (permalink) [35]

Threatening Iran: http://www.countercurrents.org/roberts200709.htm [36]

"The US, which has been threatening Iran with attack for years, has passed the job to Israel.."

It's always about the "Zionist Entity" isn't it?

The benign entity speaks:

Iran: If Israel attacks us, we'll hit its nuclear sites

The leader of Iran's Revolutionary Guards said on Saturday that Iran would strike Israel's nuclear facilities if Israel attacked it, state television reported.

"If the Zionist regime attacks Iran, we will surely strike its nuclear facilities with our missile capabilities," Mohammad Ali Jafari, Guards commander-in-chief, told Iran's Arabic language al-Alam television.

The Revolutionary Guards are the ideologically driven wing of Iran's military with air, sea and land capabilities, and a separate command structure to regular units.

Iranian leaders often dismiss talk of a possible strike by Israel, saying it is not in a position to threaten Iran, the world's fifth-largest oil exporter. They say Iran would respond to any attack by targeting U.S. interests and Israel."Our missile capability puts all of the Zionist regime within Iran's reach to attack," Jafari said. "The Zionist regime is too small to threaten Iran."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1102705.html

Not at all hypothetical. I am watching you now add credibility to the claim that Iranian movement for change is in the pocket of the Zionists, or at least serves its interests", right now.

Cue:

Don't you know world domination is the aim of "the Zionists?"

Of course paranoia is treatable.......

Not really, apparently if your offering here are to be an example.

The Twitter story was quite well evidenced, and there do seem to have been some Twitter feeds that originated with the Jerusalem Post, not that makes much difference, since I doubt "twitter" had much to do with anything, other than serving as a cute byline for the western press. In that sense it may have helped shape views here, more than it did in Iran.

That said reading comprehension can be enhanced. Modern literacy pedagogy has made some wonderful advances in the last 20 years. You seem to have a problem discerning the difference between words likes "claims" and "support" (my words) and "initiate" (yours).

"World domination". Hah! Only in Bibi's most extravagant political wet dreams.

http://site.iranlabor.com/

Statement of Independent Union of Print Shop Workers of Tehran

"There are some dangerous misconceptions about the democratic movement in Iran that must be addressed urgently.."

Peech has gone on vacation.

For good.

Where Should the Iranian Left Stand?

http://revolutionaryflowerpot.blogspot.com/2009/07/where-should-iranian-...

"It is now clearer than ever that the opposition movement in Iran has two heads. One is the official loyal opposition within the regime, the reformists, and the other is the opposition movement of the people in the streets...The opposition movement among the people is clearly more radical and is determined to go much farther than the Mousavi-Khatami-Karroubi faction and their cohorts will ever, EVER be willing to go. In all this, we must not forget that Rafsanjani is a third column within the regime, and has his own agenda..Let us hope that this movement for fundamental change will not be derailed and hijacked once again by the people living upstairs.."

Debate: How Should Anti-Imperialists Respond to Iran's Political Crisis?

Heres another socialists voice:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n14/zize01_.html

Redburn discovers Zizek after years of attacking Post-modern post-Marxists in the "dialetical materialist" tradition.

Zizek quickly disposes of the idea that the issue of the Iranian revolt is political dichotomy between "secular democracy" in opposition to "religious authoritarianism", and then establishes the lessons of the Iranian resistance in the context of how it reflects itself in the present order in the west:

Excelent as always.

I gave it as example to show that not all Marxists agree on this issue, child, and not all worry about "what socialists should believe".  I got another where he talks about the necessity for authoritarian rule in China...yknow, only as an temporary stage.  See, in this complex world some people can refer to others without swearing allegiance to their every utterance.  Now if you want to create more straw men go to it, you don't need my help for that.

Heh. I spent the better part of three threads discussing democracy in Iran, where I asked what the tangible difference between a democractic system where a theocratic elite sanctions an electoral slate where two candidates are more simillar than they are different,  and a democracy where a corporate elite sanctions two candidates that are more simillar than they are different, and you villified me as a supporter of Sharia Authoritarianism for even daring to ask such a question. Zizek does the same asking "is there a link between Ahmadinejad and Berlusconi? Isn't it preposterous even to compare Ahmadinejad with a democratically elected Western leader? Unfortunately, it isn't: the two are part of the same global process," and this is just an example of the "complex world", not some kind of covert defense of religious authoritarianism.

Heh. Too funny. I guess its because you read it in LRB, as opposed to Rabble.

Sigh.  Its not about you all the time, I posted this here to show another angle on it, I even used the neutral term "socialist" so as not to arouse ire.  Last I looked the Marxist view never did receive an official monopoly over the international news section.  Personally I oppose all hierarchy except where strictly necessary or limited, but thats not what this thread is about.  I also oppose any efforts to use this as a pretext for more violence, as I have repeatedly stated, you are correct in so far as to be concerned about foreign manipulation but only so far.  I get irritated when others continue to argue against what I never said.  Its not always accidental or incidental.  Its sometimes a ploy to divert attention or control the framing of an issue.  Thats as much an explanation I care to give on this.  I have been at this too long today, already, time to give others their chance. 

So when I say something like that, its a "ploy to divert attention" but when Zizek says something like that its fair criticism. Hah! Now there is this bit about "foreign manipulation". Again you could quote me on something I actually said, where I said, the revolt was primarily instigated by the west. Where do you read me saying that? Nowhere. It is a fabrication. In fact, I said the opposite, several times, noting above, for example:

But no, as you recently opined, my real aim is supporting "dictatorial regimes... whether you admit that's what youre doing or not". What you are really saying is that my failure to align myself along the ideological spectrum of right and wrong, as you concieve of it, is tantamount to being "with the terrorists". Zizek can get away with it, apparently, even though he really was a member of the communist party, an alignment you have suggested charachterizes my view "objectively", on more than one occassion.

On these three threads you have read articles and opinion pieces from many who have had thde experience of living under those two systems, and yet you reject their experience. So it seems the only way to understand the difference is to personally experience living under both systems and then compare them. Note that the difference is not just the mechanisms of election as you are focusing on; but the whole lack of legal protection for human rights of individuals and groups.

Iran: Whose Side?

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23149.htm

"I have been reading, with much despair and a deal of consternation, the torrent of 'analysis' coming out of 'left' field about which, if any side to support in the ongoing struggles in Iran..

Russia and Iran Join Hands

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23146.htm

"The United States may think of Russia as a strategic partner when it comes to Iran. In reality, the geostrategic tensions between Washington and Moscow are still powerful enough to warrant a common approach by Russia and its eastern neighbor Iran with respect to a deterrent strategy towards the intrusive western superpower.."

So you think.

Those who challenge the state know differently. This is a country where the Prime Minister invoked martial law in order to quell the threat of Quebec nationalism when two minor officials were kidnapped by a small revolutionary clique. Where the RCMP actively sent agent provocateurs into the midst of opposition groups [56] to discredit them, buying dynamite to trump up evidence against people, burning down barns to prevent political meetings from taking place, stolen the membership lists of legal democratic parties, and when this was discovered, they held an inquirey and founded a new organization to do the same kinds of contelipro opreations, legaly. They called it CSIS, the very same CSIS that aided an abetted the torture of a teenager in Guantanmo Bay, and is "scolded" [57]for doing so. A country where a police officer shoots a native activist [58] and is given two years of community service for criminal negligence. And that is just here.

In the grand scheme, when we talk about here, we are talking about "the west" and particularly the USA. And if you really think that there is real legal protection for human rights for individuals and groups, in the United States you are seriously deluded. Nazis who march through black suburbs of Toledo are given police protection [59]. Black people are murdered by law enforcement officers routinely, almost as if it is in the line of duty, executing them in full public view [60], or shooting them even when they follow instructions [61]. Rioting takes place when the disenfranchised mass react to these blatant abuses, and for some reason here you seem to think we can determine that the violence is the fault of the protestors, and not a "police riot", whereas you insist that the violence perpetrated by people of Iran against police repression is justifiable. Even peaceful protests are routinely broken up violently by the police [62].

On the one hand you assert that narrative given by Iranian state media about how rioting is instigated by lawless elements is entirely false, but turn around and assert the same narrative when given by the mainstream media in the west [63], is essentially true... the work of anarchists and other lawless elements [64].

So yes, there is a difference. The unmasked brutality of the state is always availble to the powers that be, in direct ratio to the evident threat to authority. Were there a serious challenge to the reigning authority in the US, I believe the violence unleashed by the state would more than likely make what has been happening in Iran look like a tea party. When it comes down to it what you call the paper upon which the "legal protection for human rights of individuals and groups" exists is indeed very thin.

cueball, has it occured to you that the things you mention have had PUBLIC INQUIRIES into them? There has been a lot of media coverage about them and that we can freely discuss them on babble?

Compare that situation to this

I would hope you would have the intellectual and moral honesty to at least acknowledge the differences between Canada and Iran, especially when an immigrant who has experienced both is explaining it to you!

I do not subscribe to a black and white picture and do not paint a rosy picture of the situation in the west; the Vancouver airport incident for example is as bad as any similar incident in Iran. However the comparison you are giving in the above, especially the examples you gave, is like garden party comparing to the situation in Iran and many other third world countries. The scope and magnitude of it is perhaps beynd comprehension of an average Canadian. Let's compare:

1. Canada: Stealing membership lists of political parties

Iran: Mass arrest of top exectives of the two legal parties that challenged Ahmadinejad in election. Most of them have not been heard from since the election.

2. Canada: Officer gets two years of community service for shooting a antive protester

Iran:  No one has ever been brought to justice for any of the murders in police custody: from Zahra Kazemi and Zahra Bani-yaghoub in previous years to more than 30 who have been confirmed dead in police custody after this election.

3. Canada: CSIS gets scolded for its activities

Iran: 25 newspapers get shut down over night for "crimes" ranged from suggesting that a specific trial was unfair, to "insulting" an official by linking him to murder of a journalist. Not even "scolding".

4. Canada: An inquiry leads to another ineffective organization

Iran: What is an inquiry?

I can continue the list, but no doubt you know it as much as I do. This is not a "West is paradise and Iran is hell" argument. Just the fact that even thinking that a Canadian activist has to face the same level of problems that an Iranian or other third world activist has to, requires a huge deal of fantasy.

What do you mean? Authorities in Iran had an inquirey into the allegations of vote fraud, and discovered that indeed their were "irregularities" but not enough to sway the end result. Are they not having an investigation of the event were the student dorm was attacked during the first weeks of the unrest? They indeed had a trial in the Zahra case that resulted in aquittal on what amounts to a manslaughter charge.

You are not serious, right? An inquiry is something that by nature must be open to the public. How do you know any investigation has been done in these cases where the whole report by the authorities is that: "We investigated and there was no basis."

Investigating the attack on the student dorm? Good luck. Lots of such promises were given in the aftermath of the similar attack on student dorms in 1999, and after ten years still not a single peson has been prosecuted for a ravage that was done in presence of police. Of course, scores of students who protested the attack afterwards have now completed their jail sentences!

Trial in Zahra Kazemi's case was done under pressure from Khatami, and none of the major alleged culprits was involved other than a low rank officer who was responsible for transferring her from the interrogation centre to the prison! Neither the interrogator, nor the head of prison or prison guards were investigated.

In the case of Zahra Baniyaghoub who was found dead in police custody, because of the prominence of her family originally the junior police officer in the police centre was charged, and then all charges were dropped after a week or two. Her sister (who is a well known journalist) and some other family members are now in jail since the election.

Right. It's a whitewash, just like ipperwash. Please find me a Canadian conviction for murder of a Canadian police officer for his actions on duty? Ipperwash whitewash = "criminal negligence" charge, a charge that is even less than the charge brought in Zahra case, which was at least a murder charge. Siillarly, None of the higher officials involved were even touched by the investigation let alone charged.

In fact it is so simillar, any arguement on this would prevarication.

True, but the scale of whitewashing is entirely different. In the Ipperwash case you know when and how  Dudley George was killed, what was the name of the police officer who shot him, witnesses were called, and even Mike Harris himself had to appear before the commission and testify. BTW It was indeed a disgusting shame that the judge decided not to give a harsher sentence to the shooter. This appears to have become the norm here in Canada and a stain on the justice system.

Now compare it to Zahra Kazemi's case. please tell me: where was she killed? who killed her? what actually happened? not a single prison official was even called to testify. The court rulling was: "we have no idea what happened to Kazemi!" Same thing in all other so called investigations.

Look, the point here is that we are looking at the larger scale aspects of "systems", and trying to determine their net effect in terms of real democracy and freedom from corruption. The ideological backdrop upon which much of the commentary on the situation in Iran is set up is based on a theoretical dichotomy between "systems" and the ideological root of those systems. This is most often posed by the formula: Islamic Authoritarianism v. Liberal Democracy. At stake is the idea that there is a fundamental ideological difference between the two that presents itself in the form of real democracy and freedom from corruption.

Even under Stalin, part of the process of the purge was occassionally putting state security personnel and even state prosecutors on trial for excesses committed in the name of the state, precisely for the purpose of displacing blame from the overall abuses committed by the system in total: "Mistakes were made, comrade."

We are not just comparing Canada v Iran. We are comparing the "systems" in total. One can find real differences that present themselves between the situation in the United States and Canada as well. But the question is, is there an underlying fundamental difference in the manner in which each ideology impacts the state of affairs on a day to day basis, when presented with simillar social stresses?

Carefully ignoring direct comparisons I made to other manifestations of "liberal democracy" in action, and relying on Canada as a model, does not in any way shape of form truly represent the potential for abuse of police powers, corruption and the demise of real democracy in "the west", as posed in alleged tangible differences between the manner in which the putative "Islamic Authoritarianism" operates in comparison to "Liberal Democracy" as they function on a day to day basis in relationship to dissent, and the manifestations of dissent in the form of public protest.

In fact, as we see in the Dudley George shooting, police officers are held to a lower standard of compliance to the law than the average citizen, when in fact the complete opposite should be true. Officers who kill people in the line of duty should not be excused for doing so but punished to the maximum by the law that they are sworn to uphold, especially since they wield inordinate powers, beyond those of the average citizen.

We can see that even when faced with public protest of dissenting opinions that are relatively benign in comparison to the large scale outburst of public outrage that took place in Iran, police forces here in the west, even in Canada, take an adversarial position against protest and routinely exceed the necessary forced required to maintain public order, and that official investigations of that excess amount to pro-forma adminstrative posturing without real teeth for conviction of offending police officials or the people they command.

Now, given these abuses of police power are routine, in situations where there are even small, and largely peaceful protests, we can easily extrapolate what kind of mayhem would ensue were protestors to take the kind of actions "en masse" as they did recently in Iran.

There is a reason that new police stations are designed like fortresses, like the new 52 division building on college, or the Hastings VPD precinct in downtown Vancouver.

CB:  "Look, the point here is that we are looking at the larger scale aspects of "systems", and trying to determine their net effect in terms of real democracy and freedom from corruption."

First things first, stop telling others what "the point is here", thats only a matter of your opinion and one in which is not always clear in your case given your constant shifting of the grounds.  Most people left of centre have a clear idea that it isn't Islamic authoritarianism versus Liberal Democracy, for the simple reason that most everyone knows we no longer live in a Liberal Democracy.  It has become significantly less on both counts since the neo-cons manipulated their way to power, and of course was always less than perfect.  Most do however recognise that Iran may still be significantly worse most ways, and certaintly not any alternative that anyone here would prefer to live under.   Its nice to see you basically admit that you think that you are defending their "system", even if you will of course try to deny it and obfuscate. 

CB:

"So when I say something like that, its a "ploy to divert attention" but when Zizek says something like that its fair criticism. Hah! Now there is this bit about "foreign manipulation"."

Huh?  Something like what?  Didn't I just tell you that my quoting this wasn't necessarily in agreement with everything he said but only to showe some difference of opinion on the subject on the militant left?  Why yes, yes I did.  Now perhaps if you were more clear on just which passage I was supposed to be in contradiction of and with who I can better understand why you trying to turn this too around on me, other than your usual childish need to one up the other. 

It should have been obvious that I was looking to disengage on that post, in fact I said so quite plainly, but since you seem to want to raise more isues with me I'll promise you I get back to you soon on this whole subject, as you so obviously want to do, but first I'd rather engage with others and read a few less contentious threads.  But in answer to you other I will say that yes, yes you Are supporting dictatorial regimes,as you have done quite persistently over the years, what your AIm is for doing so may not necessaily be a love of dictorial regime itself and I seriously doubt youd prefer to live there yourself, but that is in effect what you are doing yes.  I hope that helps at least a bit.

Oh yes, I can, since Sanizedah is responding to my point "here", which is extrapolated from Zizek's point, which is 3 paragraphs of short disection of competing narratives about the present situation in Iran, and then another 10 looking at the larger scale aspects of "systems".

And you have no evidence that I support dictatorial regiemes anywhere. This is something you inffer, as objectively true based on your own deductions, and has nothing to do with anything I said. I repeatedly ask you for quotes where I "support dictatorial regiemes", and you provide none, suggesting that you can determine such by inference because I am engaging in a "ploy to divert" attention.

Such reasoning about the objective meaning of a persons words as deduced from their failure to properly denounce is a kind of logic much better suited to the courts of Vyshinsky, as opposed to a person who purportedly supports "democracy", fair play and justice. The fact that one can be a "class enemy" and not even know it, "in effect", is even more in line with such corrupt thinking.

The question is, why is not Zizek's reflection on meaning of the revolt in Iran, in terms of its comparison to "democracy" in the west also a "ploy to divert attention" and even your posting it also such a "ploy". He asks "is there a link between Ahmadinejad and Berlusconi? Isn't it preposterous even to compare Ahmadinejad with a democratically elected Western leader? Unfortunately, it isn't: the two are part of the same global process".

Wow, back already?  You Are eager to pounce.  Ok, first things first, I was never refering to Sanizadeh in my earlier post, so please stop trying to play games.  Tell me what exactly I was in incontradiction with and please tie it into what I said previously, and how it related to others.  Otherwise I can only assume its more one-up-manship. 

Re your support of dictatorial regimes, that is exactly what your doing here and have done on many an occasion prior, Iran is a dictatorial regime, you are defending it, full stop.  Why you are doing so is another issue.  Now I am going to leave this for awhile, as you're also trying to make it look like I'm out to "get you" again, something I do not appreciate when you are the one going after me, but I will again assure you that I will deal with this whole issue soon, as it never seems to get resolved to anyones satisfaction. I hope I can offer up a better way of looking at this kind of international conflict, something that less militant leftists might find easier to accept.  Goodnight for now.

Again, you will have to provide evidence as to how I support dictatorial regiemes. Repeating the accussation is just repetition of the slur.

I might just as well say that you are supporting Amedinejad "in effect" by engaging in a "ploy to distract attention" from Amedinejad's Iran by posting a link where Zizek is supporting Amedinejad "in effect" by engaging in a "ploy to distract attention" from Amedinejad's Iran, by talking about Berlesconi and pointing out how democracy in the west is often just as much as a sham as the Iranian democracy.

Such would be nonsense much in line with your nonesense about how I support dictatorial regiemes by talking about the global movement toward toothless democracy backed up by an ever bolder national security state, in the context of Iran.

You could, as an alternate, talk about what I have said, as opposed to innuendo about my real intentions, and various other personal attacks based in my failure to say exactly what you think I should say.

"I might just as well say that you are supporting Amedinejad "in effect" by engaging in a "ploy to distract attention" from Amedinejad's Iran by posting a link where Zizek is supporting Amedinejad "in effect" by engaging in a "ploy to distract attention" from Amedinejad's Iran, by talking about Berlesconi and pointing out how democracy in the west is often just as much as a sham as the Iranian democracy."

Laughable.  I'll take this up with you this weekend as well, then.  It might take some time compiling all the posts youve made that defend this regime, along with other even more tyrannical ones.  You can always give us all the noble reasons why, I think I can anticipate them too.   Till then I still have a life so can I be excused from jousting with you for awhile?  It may not be much of a life but its the only one I have and noone else will cover for me.

Exactly. Its totally laughable. How about your obsession with human rights abuse in the rest of the world, in Iran and China is just a "ploy to distract attention" away from racism in America.  I notice you failed to post on the thread regarding professor Gate's and condemn his arrest, and are even eschewing even the slightlest share of "collective" guilt for the incarceration of Omar Khadr. These failures truly have dark implications.Are these not signs that you are "in effect" a supporter of racism and authoritarianism in the USA?

Such, conclusions and conspiracy theories are the fruit of the logic you are applying with your slurs.

You just Have to get the last word don't you?  Funny.  Maybe not tonight, but I promise you free reign for the next few.  If your only real counter now is "my obsession" with rights abuses in "other lands" then I'm also afraid this weekends event maybe more dull than I thought.  That OC is not true and can I think be demonstrated ass well.  My reason for resisting the usual line on Iran and others here is for reasons I don't think you'd understand very easily, but most progressive minds I think could.  On that one I can only try.

Actually why don't you not try, and instead of casting apsertions against my person, stick to the thread topic on the basis of what i say as opposed to whatever you think I mean. I think I'd be less inclined to want to get the last word in were it not for the fact that every second post of yours was not a personal attack against me about my alleged support for dictatorial regiemes, something you talk about but never have time to substantiate. I can make stupid accussation based on my own personal fantasy life as well.

Looks like I was wrong, I may not even get the last word in at three AM PST.  You are truly amazing, last thing at night, first thing in the morning, if anyone dares express a contrary opinion there you be.  If you want to whine about personal attacks then you should stop attacking others first.  I'm afriad I'm still quite working class in that way. 

Your defence of authoritarian regimes is not a personal aspersion or "fantasy" but easy enough for anyone with a half open mind to see, but feel free to feel smug for a few more days.  I know how persistent you can be so I'd prefer a few more free hrs to deal with other more interesting subjects. Getting late even for this nighthawk so if youre still around you can still get that all important last word in. Or first thing tomorrow.  I suspect I'll be sleeping in a bit tomorrow.

Ok, listen. I am finally going to post a complaint about your ongoing unjustified personal off topic attacks, trolling and stalking. Its pretty clear that you have far less interest in Iran than pursuing your grudge match. Satisfied?

Iran to try 20 vote 'rioters' as opposition vows defiance

Plus the ritual admission of guilt for police excesses, necessary for absolving the state from its culpability:

Khamenei's addresses prisoner abuse and closes detention center. [85]

The plot thickens: President Ahmadinejad Alienating Allies in Iran

Oh nice, so now you try to get me banned while my back was turned.   Let me be clear about this so even you can understand, you are the one stalking me.  "Stalking" is a term which only applies to the person who goes After the other.  Example in this thread and the other yesterday, was I addressing you to begin with?  No.  When I respond to Others you were there Immediately.  So who is holding the grudge?  Read below.

Second, you say I am "trolling".  Pot and kettles. Read below.

You don't want to engage anymore fine, I'l make it easier, stay the out of my way in future too but don't whine if you don't and i respond in kind.

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Erik Redburn [92] is rabble-rouser

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July 28, 2009 - 7:55pm
#31 [93] (permalink) [94]

Heres another socialists voice:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n14/zize01_.html [95]

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Cueball [100] is awake rabble-rouser-for-life

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July 28, 2009 - 10:27pm
#32 [102] (permalink) [103]

Redburn discovers Zizek after years of attacking Post-modern post-Marxists in the "dialetical materialist" tradition.

Zizek quickly disposes of the idea that the issue of the Iranian revolt is political dichotomy between "secular democracy" in opposition to "religious authoritarianism", and then establishes the lessons of the Iranian resistance in the context of how it reflects itself in the present order in the west:

Quote:
In this sense, in a democracy, the ordinary citizen is effectively a king, but a king in a constitutional democracy, a king whose decisions are merely formal, whose function is to sign measures proposed by the executive. The problem of democratic legitimacy is homologous to the problem of constitutional democracy: how to protect the dignity of the king? How to make it seem that the king effectively decides, when we all know this is not true? What we call the 'crisis of democracy' isn't something that happens when people stop believing in their own power but, on the contrary, when they stop trusting the elites, when they perceive that the throne is empty, that the decision is now theirs. 'Free elections' involve a minimal show of politeness when those in power pretend that they do not really hold the power, and ask us to decide freely if we want to grant it to them.

Excelent as always.

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July 28, 2009 - 10:25pm
#33 [108] (permalink) [109]

I gave it as example to show that not all Marxists agree on this issue, child, and not all worry about "what socialists should believe".  I got another where he talks about the necessity for authoritarian rule in China...yknow, only as an temporary stage.  See, in this complex world some people can refer to others without swearing allegiance to their every utterance.  Now if you want to create more straw men go to it, you don't need my help for that.

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July 28, 2009 - 10:47pm
#34 [114] (permalink) [115]

Heh. I spent the better part of three threads discussing democracy in Iran, where I asked what the tangible difference between a democractic system where a theocratic elite sanctions an electoral slate where two candidates are more simillar than they are different,  and a democracy where a corporate elite sanctions two candidates that are more simillar than they are different, and you villified me as a supporter of Sharia Authoritarianism for even daring to ask such a question. Zizek does the same asking "is there a link between Ahmadinejad and Berlusconi? Isn't it preposterous even to compare Ahmadinejad with a democratically elected Western leader? Unfortunately, it isn't: the two are part of the same global process," and this is just an example of the "complex world", not some kind of covert defense of religious authoritarianism.

Heh. Too funny. I guess its because you read it in LRB, as opposed to Rabble.

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July 28, 2009 - 11:02pm
#35 [120] (permalink) [121]

Sigh.  Its not about you all the time, I posted this here to show another angle on it, I even used the neutral term "socialist" so as not to arouse ire.  Last I looked the Marxist view never did receive an official monopoly over the international news section.  Personally I oppose all hierarchy except where strictly necessary or limited, but thats not what this thread is about.  I also oppose any efforts to use this as a pretext for more violence, as I have repeatedly stated, you are correct in so far as to be concerned about foreign manipulation but only so far.  I get irritated when others continue to argue against what I never said.  Its not always accidental or incidental.  Its sometimes a ploy to divert attention or control the framing of an issue.  Thats as much an explanation I care to give on this.  I have been at this too long today, already, time to give others their chance. 

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July 29, 2009 - 12:06am
#36 [126] (permalink) [127]

So when I say something like that, its a "ploy to divert attention" but when Zizek says something like that its fair criticism. Hah! Now there is this bit about "foreign manipulation". Again you could quote me on something I actually said, where I said, the revolt was primarily instigated by the west. Where do you read me saying that? Nowhere. It is a fabrication. In fact, I said the opposite, several times, noting above, for example:

Quote:
The Twitter story was quite well evidenced, and there do seem to have been some Twitter feeds that originated with the Jerusalem Post, not that makes much difference, since I doubt "twitter" had much to do with anything, other than serving as a cute byline for the western press. In that sense it may have helped shape views here, more than it did in Iran.

But no, as you recently opined, my real aim is supporting "dictatorial regimes... whether you admit that's what youre doing or not". What you are really saying is that my failure to align myself along the ideological spectrum of right and wrong, as you concieve of it, is tantamount to being "with the terrorists". Zizek can get away with it, apparently, even though he really was a member of the communist party, an alignment you have suggested charachterizes my view "objectively", on more than one occassion.

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July 29, 2009 - 3:06am
#37 [134] (permalink) [135]

Cueball wrote:

Heh. I spent the better part of three threads discussing democracy in Iran, where I asked what the tangible difference between a democractic system where a theocratic elite sanctions an electoral slate where two candidates are more simillar than they are different,  and a democracy where a corporate elite sanctions two candidates that are more simillar than they are different

On these three threads you have read articles and opinion pieces from many who have had thde experience of living under those two systems, and yet you reject their experience. So it seems the only way to understand the difference is to personally experience living under both systems and then compare them. Note that the difference is not just the mechanisms of election as you are focusing on; but the whole lack of legal protection for human rights of individuals and groups.

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July 29, 2009 - 3:34am
#38 [142] (permalink) [143]

Iran: Whose Side?

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23149.htm [144]

"I have been reading, with much despair and a deal of consternation, the torrent of 'analysis' coming out of 'left' field about which, if any side to support in the ongoing struggles in Iran..

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July 29, 2009 - 3:41am
#39 [149] (permalink) [150]

Russia and Iran Join Hands

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23146.htm [151]

"The United States may think of Russia as a strategic partner when it comes to Iran. In reality, the geostrategic tensions between Washington and Moscow are still powerful enough to warrant a common approach by Russia and its eastern neighbor Iran with respect to a deterrent strategy towards the intrusive western superpower.."

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July 29, 2009 - 8:04am
#40 [156] (permalink) [157]

sanizadeh wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Heh. I spent the better part of three threads discussing democracy in Iran, where I asked what the tangible difference between a democractic system where a theocratic elite sanctions an electoral slate where two candidates are more simillar than they are different,  and a democracy where a corporate elite sanctions two candidates that are more simillar than they are different

On these three threads you have read articles and opinion pieces from many who have had thde experience of living under those two systems, and yet you reject their experience. So it seems the only way to understand the difference is to personally experience living under both systems and then compare them. Note that the difference is not just the mechanisms of election as you are focusing on; but the whole lack of legal protection for human rights of individuals and groups.

So you think.

Those who challenge the state know differently. This is a country where the Prime Minister invoked martial law [158] in order to quell the threat of Quebec nationalism when two minor officials were kidnapped by a small revolutionary clique. Where the RCMP actively sent agent provocateurs into the midst of opposition groups [56] to discredit them, buying dynamite to trump up evidence against people, burning down barns to prevent political meetings from taking place, stolen the membership lists of legal democratic parties, and when this was discovered, they held an inquirey and founded a new organization to do the same kinds of contelipro opreations, legaly. They called it CSIS, the very same CSIS that aided an abetted the torture of a teenager in Guantanmo Bay, and is "scolded" [57]for doing so. A country where a police officer shoots a native activist [58] and is given two years of community service for criminal negligence. And that is just here.

In the grand scheme, when we talk about here, we are talking about "the west" and particularly the USA. And if you really think that there is real legal protection for human rights for individuals and groups, in the United States you are seriously deluded. Nazis who march through black suburbs of Toledo are given police protection [59]. Black people are murdered by law enforcement officers routinely, almost as if it is in the line of duty, executing them in full public view [60], or shooting them even when they follow instructions [61]. Rioting takes place when the disenfranchised mass react to these blatant abuses, and for some reason here you seem to think we can determine that the violence is the fault of the protestors, and not a "police riot", whereas you insist that the violence perpetrated by people of Iran against police repression is justifiable. Even peaceful protests are routinely broken up violently by the police [62].

On the one hand you assert that narrative given by Iranian state media about how rioting is instigated by lawless elements is entirely false, but turn around and assert the same narrative when given by the mainstream media in the west [63], is essentially true... the work of anarchists and other lawless elements [64].

So yes, there is a difference. The unmasked brutality of the state is always availble to the powers that be, in direct ratio to the evident threat to authority. Were there a serious challenge to the reigning authority in the US, I believe the violence unleashed by the state would more than likely make what has been happening in Iran look like a tea party. When it comes down to it what you call the paper upon which the "legal protection for human rights of individuals and groups" exists is indeed very thin.

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July 29, 2009 - 2:54pm
#41 [165] (permalink) [166]

cueball, has it occured to you that the things you mention have had PUBLIC INQUIRIES into them? There has been a lot of media coverage about them and that we can freely discuss them on babble?

Compare that situation to this [167]

Quote:

Although the government has played down the scale of the prison abuses, some detainees' relatives have come forward recently to confirm them, mostly to opposition-linked Web sites that have provided credible information in the past, including roozonline.com [66] and gooya.com [67].

Some deaths have been further documented with photographs or videotapes. Hospital officials have described receiving bodies of those killed in protests, with the total far in excess of 20, the government's initial figure. It is difficult to confirm such reports independently, given the restrictions on reporting in Iran.

I would hope you would have the intellectual and moral honesty to at least acknowledge the differences between Canada and Iran, especially when an immigrant who has experienced both is explaining it to you!

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July 29, 2009 - 3:06pm
#42 [172] (permalink) [173]

Cueball wrote:

Those who challenge the state know differently. This is a country where the Prime Minister invoked martial law [158] in order to quell the threat of Quebec nationalism when two minor officials were kidnapped by a small revolutionary clique. Where the RCMP actively sent agent provocateurs into the midst of opposition groups [56] to discredit them, buying dynamite to trump up evidence against people, burning down barns to prevent political meetings from taking place, stolen the membership lists of legal democratic parties, and when this was discovered, they held an inquirey and founded a new organization to do the same kinds of contelipro opreations, legaly. They called it CSIS, the very same CSIS that aided an abetted the torture of a teenager in Guantanmo Bay, and is "scolded" [57]for doing so. A country where a police officer shoots a native activist [58] and is given two years of community service for criminal negligence. And that is just here.

I do not subscribe to a black and white picture and do not paint a rosy picture of the situation in the west; the Vancouver airport incident for example is as bad as any similar incident in Iran. However the comparison you are giving in the above, especially the examples you gave, is like garden party comparing to the situation in Iran and many other third world countries. The scope and magnitude of it is perhaps beynd comprehension of an average Canadian. Let's compare:

1. Canada: Stealing membership lists of political parties

Iran: Mass arrest of top exectives of the two legal parties that challenged Ahmadinejad in election. Most of them have not been heard from since the election.

2. Canada: Officer gets two years of community service for shooting a antive protester

Iran:  No one has ever been brought to justice for any of the murders in police custody: from Zahra Kazemi and Zahra Bani-yaghoub in previous years to more than 30 who have been confirmed dead in police custody after this election.

3. Canada: CSIS gets scolded for its activities

Iran: 25 newspapers get shut down over night for "crimes" ranged from suggesting that a specific trial was unfair, to "insulting" an official by linking him to murder of a journalist. Not even "scolding".

4. Canada: An inquiry leads to another ineffective organization

Iran: What is an inquiry?

I can continue the list, but no doubt you know it as much as I do. This is not a "West is paradise and Iran is hell" argument. Just the fact that even thinking that a Canadian activist has to face the same level of problems that an Iranian or other third world activist has to, requires a huge deal of fantasy.

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July 29, 2009 - 6:32pm
#43 [178] (permalink) [179]

What do you mean? Authorities in Iran had an inquirey into the allegations of vote fraud, and discovered that indeed their were "irregularities" but not enough to sway the end result. Are they not having an investigation of the event were the student dorm was attacked during the first weeks of the unrest? They indeed had a trial in the Zahra case that resulted in aquittal on what amounts to a manslaughter charge.

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July 29, 2009 - 7:25pm
#44 [184] (permalink) [185]

Cueball wrote:

What do you mean? Authorities in Iran had an inquirey into the allegations of vote fraud, and discovered that indeed their were "irregularities" but not enough to sway the end result. Are they not having an investigation of the event were the student dorm was attacked during the first weeks of the unrest? They indeed had a trial in the Zahra case that resulted in aquittal on what amounts to a manslaughter charge.

You are not serious, right? An inquiry is something that by nature must be open to the public. How do you know any investigation has been done in these cases where the whole report by the authorities is that: "We investigated and there was no basis."

Investigating the attack on the student dorm? Good luck. Lots of such promises were given in the aftermath of the similar attack on student dorms in 1999, and after ten years still not a single peson has been prosecuted for a ravage that was done in presence of police. Of course, scores of students who protested the attack afterwards have now completed their jail sentences!

Trial in Zahra Kazemi's case was done under pressure from Khatami, and none of the major alleged culprits was involved other than a low rank officer who was responsible for transferring her from the interrogation centre to the prison! Neither the interrogator, nor the head of prison or prison guards were investigated.

In the case of Zahra Baniyaghoub who was found dead in police custody, because of the prominence of her family originally the junior police officer in the police centre was charged, and then all charges were dropped after a week or two. Her sister (who is a well known journalist) and some other family members are now in jail since the election.

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July 29, 2009 - 7:33pm
#45 [190] (permalink) [191]

sanizadeh wrote:

Cueball wrote:

What do you mean? Authorities in Iran had an inquirey into the allegations of vote fraud, and discovered that indeed their were "irregularities" but not enough to sway the end result. Are they not having an investigation of the event were the student dorm was attacked during the first weeks of the unrest? They indeed had a trial in the Zahra case that resulted in aquittal on what amounts to a manslaughter charge.

You are not serious, right? An inquiry is something that by nature must be open to the public. How do you know any investigation has been done in these cases where the whole report by the authorities is that: "We investigated and there was no basis."

Investigating the attack on the student dorm? Good luck. Lots of such promises were given in the aftermath of the similar attack on student dorms in 1999, and after ten years still not a single peson has been prosecuted for a ravage that was done in presence of police. Of course, scores of students who protested the attack afterwards have now completed their jail sentences!

Trial in Zahra Kazemi's case was done under pressure from Khatami, and none of the major alleged culprits was involved other than a low rank officer who was responsible for transferring her from the interrogation centre to the prison! Neither the interrogator, nor the head of prison or prison guards were investigated.

In the case of Zahra Baniyaghoub who was found dead in police custody, because of the prominence of her family originally the junior police officer in the police centre was charged, and then all charges were dropped after a week or two. Her sister (who is a well known journalist) and some other family members are now in jail since the election.

Right. It's a whitewash, just like ipperwash. Please find me a Canadian conviction for murder of a Canadian police officer for his actions on duty? Ipperwash whitewash = "criminal negligence" charge, a charge that is even less than the charge brought in Zahra case, which was at least a murder charge. Siillarly, None of the higher officials involved were even touched by the investigation let alone charged.

In fact it is so simillar, any arguement on this would prevarication.

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July 29, 2009 - 8:23pm
#46 [196] (permalink) [197]

Cueball wrote:

Right. It's a whitewash, just like ipperwash. Please find me a Canadian conviction for murder of a Canadian police officer for his actions on duty? Ipperwash whitewash = "criminal negligence" charge, a charge that is even less than the charge brought in Zahra case, which was at least a murder charge. Siillarly, None of the higher officials involved were even touched by the investigation let alone charged.

In fact it is so simillar, any arguement on this would prevarication.

True, but the scale of whitewashing is entirely different. In the Ipperwash case you know when and how  Dudley George was killed, what was the name of the police officer who shot him, witnesses were called, and even Mike Harris himself had to appear before the commission and testify. BTW It was indeed a disgusting shame that the judge decided not to give a harsher sentence to the shooter. This appears to have become the norm here in Canada and a stain on the justice system.

Now compare it to Zahra Kazemi's case. please tell me: where was she killed? who killed her? what actually happened? not a single prison official was even called to testify. The court rulling was: "we have no idea what happened to Kazemi!" Same thing in all other so called investigations.

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July 29, 2009 - 10:33pm
#47 [202] (permalink) [203]

Look, the point here is that we are looking at the larger scale aspects of "systems", and trying to determine their net effect in terms of real democracy and freedom from corruption. The ideological backdrop upon which much of the commentary on the situation in Iran is set up is based on a theoretical dichotomy between "systems" and the ideological root of those systems. This is most often posed by the formula: Islamic Authoritarianism v. Liberal Democracy. At stake is the idea that there is a fundamental ideological difference between the two that presents itself in the form of real democracy and freedom from corruption.

Even under Stalin, part of the process of the purge was occassionally putting state security personnel and even state prosecutors on trial for excesses committed in the name of the state, precisely for the purpose of displacing blame from the overall abuses committed by the system in total: "Mistakes were made, comrade."

We are not just comparing Canada v Iran. We are comparing the "systems" in total. One can find real differences that present themselves between the situation in the United States and Canada as well. But the question is, is there an underlying fundamental difference in the manner in which each ideology impacts the state of affairs on a day to day basis, when presented with simillar social stresses?

Carefully ignoring direct comparisons I made to other manifestations of "liberal democracy" in action, and relying on Canada as a model, does not in any way shape of form truly represent the potential for abuse of police powers, corruption and the demise of real democracy in "the west", as posed in alleged tangible differences between the manner in which the putative "Islamic Authoritarianism" operates in comparison to "Liberal Democracy" as they function on a day to day basis in relationship to dissent, and the manifestations of dissent in the form of public protest.

In fact, as we see in the Dudley George shooting, police officers are held to a lower standard of compliance to the law than the average citizen, when in fact the complete opposite should be true. Officers who kill people in the line of duty should not be excused for doing so but punished to the maximum by the law that they are sworn to uphold, especially since they wield inordinate powers, beyond those of the average citizen.

We can see that even when faced with public protest of dissenting opinions that are relatively benign in comparison to the large scale outburst of public outrage that took place in Iran, police forces here in the west, even in Canada, take an adversarial position against protest and routinely exceed the necessary forced required to maintain public order, and that official investigations of that excess amount to pro-forma adminstrative posturing without real teeth for conviction of offending police officials or the people they command.

Now, given these abuses of police power are routine, in situations where there are even small, and largely peaceful protests, we can easily extrapolate what kind of mayhem would ensue were protestors to take the kind of actions "en masse" as they did recently in Iran.

There is a reason that new police stations are designed like fortresses, like the new 52 division building on college, or the Hastings VPD precinct in downtown Vancouver.

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July 30, 2009 - 2:46am
#48 [208] (permalink) [209]

CB:  "Look, the point here is that we are looking at the larger scale aspects of "systems", and trying to determine their net effect in terms of real democracy and freedom from corruption."

First things first, stop telling others what "the point is here", thats only a matter of your opinion and one in which is not always clear in your case given your constant shifting of the grounds.  Most people left of centre have a clear idea that it isn't Islamic authoritarianism versus Liberal Democracy, for the simple reason that most everyone knows we no longer live in a Liberal Democracy.  It has become significantly less on both counts since the neo-cons manipulated their way to power, and of course was always less than perfect.  Most do however recognise that Iran may still be significantly worse most ways, and certaintly not any alternative that anyone here would prefer to live under.   Its nice to see you basically admit that you think that you are defending their "system", even if you will of course try to deny it and obfuscate. 

CB:

"So when I say something like that, its a "ploy to divert attention" but when Zizek says something like that its fair criticism. Hah! Now there is this bit about "foreign manipulation"."

Huh?  Something like what?  Didn't I just tell you that my quoting this wasn't necessarily in agreement with everything he said but only to showe some difference of opinion on the subject on the militant left?  Why yes, yes I did.  Now perhaps if you were more clear on just which passage I was supposed to be in contradiction of and with who I can better understand why you trying to turn this too around on me, other than your usual childish need to one up the other. 

It should have been obvious that I was looking to disengage on that post, in fact I said so quite plainly, but since you seem to want to raise more isues with me I'll promise you I get back to you soon on this whole subject, as you so obviously want to do, but first I'd rather engage with others and read a few less contentious threads.  But in answer to you other I will say that yes, yes you Are supporting dictatorial regimes,as you have done quite persistently over the years, what your AIm is for doing so may not necessaily be a love of dictorial regime itself and I seriously doubt youd prefer to live there yourself, but that is in effect what you are doing yes.  I hope that helps at least a bit.

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July 30, 2009 - 2:57am
#49 [214] (permalink) [215]

Erik Redburn wrote:

CB:  "Look, the point here is that we are looking at the larger scale aspects of "systems", and trying to determine their net effect in terms of real democracy and freedom from corruption."

First things first, stop telling others what "the point is here", thats only a matter of your opinion and one in which is not always clear in your case given your constant shifting of the grounds.

Oh yes, I can, since Sanizedah is responding to my point "here", which is extrapolated from Zizek's point, which is 3 paragraphs of short disection of competing narratives about the present situation in Iran, and then another 10 looking at the larger scale aspects of "systems".

Quote:
CB:

"So when I say something like that, its a "ploy to divert attention" but when Zizek says something like that its fair criticism. Hah! Now there is this bit about "foreign manipulation"."

Huh?  Something like what?  And didn't i just tell you that my quoting this wasn't necessarily in support of weverything he said but only to showe some difference of opinion on the subject on the militant left?  Why yes, yes I did. 

Now, it should have been obvious that I was looking to disengage on that post, in fact I said so quite plainly, but since you seem to want to raise more isues with me I'll promise you I get back to you soon and we can have it out as you so obviously want to do, but first I'd rather engage with others.  And in answer to you other I will say that yes you Are supporting dictatorial regimes,as you have done quite persistently over the years, but what your AIm is for doing so may not be a love of dictorial regime itself no but that is in effect what you are doing.  I hope that helps a bit.

And you have no evidence that I support dictatorial regiemes anywhere. This is something you inffer, as objectively true based on your own deductions, and has nothing to do with anything I said. I repeatedly ask you for quotes where I "support dictatorial regiemes", and you provide none, suggesting that you can determine such by inference because I am engaging in a "ploy to divert" attention.

Such reasoning about the objective meaning of a persons words as deduced from their failure to properly denounce is a kind of logic much better suited to the courts of Vyshinsky, as opposed to a person who purportedly supports "democracy", fair play and justice. The fact that one can be a "class enemy" and not even know it, "in effect", is even more in line with such corrupt thinking.

The question is, why is not Zizek's reflection on meaning of the revolt in Iran, in terms of its comparison to "democracy" in the west also a "ploy to divert attention" and even your posting it also such a "ploy". He asks "is there a link between Ahmadinejad and Berlusconi? Isn't it preposterous even to compare Ahmadinejad with a democratically elected Western leader? Unfortunately, it isn't: the two are part of the same global process".

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July 30, 2009 - 3:12am
#50 [220] (permalink) [221]

Wow, back already?  You Are eager to pounce.  Ok, first things first, I was never refering to Sanizadeh in my earlier post, so please stop trying to play games.  Tell me what exactly I was in incontradiction with and please tie it into what I said previously, and how it related to others.  Otherwise I can only assume its more one-up-manship. 

Re your support of dictatorial regimes, that is exactly what your doing here and have done on many an occasion prior, Iran is a dictatorial regime, you are defending it, full stop.  Why you are doing so is another issue.  Now I am going to leave this for awhile, as you're also trying to make it look like I'm out to "get you" again, something I do not appreciate when you are the one going after me, but I will again assure you that I will deal with this whole issue soon, as it never seems to get resolved to anyones satisfaction. I hope I can offer up a better way of looking at this kind of international conflict, something that less militant leftists might find easier to accept.  Goodnight for now.

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July 30, 2009 - 3:31am
#51 [226] (permalink) [227]

Again, you will have to provide evidence as to how I support dictatorial regiemes. Repeating the accussation is just repetition of the slur.

I might just as well say that you are supporting Amedinejad "in effect" by engaging in a "ploy to distract attention" from Amedinejad's Iran by posting a link where Zizek is supporting Amedinejad "in effect" by engaging in a "ploy to distract attention" from Amedinejad's Iran, by talking about Berlesconi and pointing out how democracy in the west is often just as much as a sham as the Iranian democracy.

Such would be nonsense much in line with your nonesense about how I support dictatorial regiemes by talking about the global movement toward toothless democracy backed up by an ever bolder national security state, in the context of Iran.

You could, as an alternate, talk about what I have said, as opposed to innuendo about my real intentions, and various other personal attacks based in my failure to say exactly what you think I should say.

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July 30, 2009 - 3:58am
#52 [232] (permalink) [233]

"I might just as well say that you are supporting Amedinejad "in effect" by engaging in a "ploy to distract attention" from Amedinejad's Iran by posting a link where Zizek is supporting Amedinejad "in effect" by engaging in a "ploy to distract attention" from Amedinejad's Iran, by talking about Berlesconi and pointing out how democracy in the west is often just as much as a sham as the Iranian democracy."

Laughable.  I'll take this up with you this weekend as well, then.  It might take some time compiling all the posts youve made that defend this regime, along with other even more tyrannical ones.  You can always give us all the noble reasons why, I think I can anticipate them too.   Till then I still have a life so can I be excused from jousting with you for awhile?  It may not be much of a life but its the only one I have and noone else will cover for me.

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July 30, 2009 - 4:42am
#53 [238] (permalink) [239]

Exactly. Its totally laughable. How about your obsession with human rights abuse in the rest of the world, in Iran and China is just a "ploy to distract attention" away from racism in America.  I notice you failed to post on the thread regarding professor Gate's and condemn his arrest, and are even eschewing even the slightlest share of "collective" guilt for the incarceration of Omar Khadr. These failures truly have dark implications.Are these not signs that you are "in effect" a supporter of racism and authoritarianism in the USA?

Such, conclusions and conspiracy theories are the fruit of the logic you are applying with your slurs.

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July 30, 2009 - 5:36am
#54 [244] (permalink) [245]

You just Have to get the last word don't you?  Funny.  Maybe not tonight, but I promise you free reign for the next few.  If your only real counter now is "my obsession" with rights abuses in "other lands" then I'm also afraid this weekends event maybe more dull than I thought.  That OC is not true and can I think be demonstrated ass well.  My reason for resisting the usual line on Iran and others here is for reasons I don't think you'd understand very easily, but most progressive minds I think could.  On that one I can only try.

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July 30, 2009 - 5:53am
#55 [250] (permalink) [251]

Actually why don't you not try, and instead of casting apsertions against my person, stick to the thread topic on the basis of what i say as opposed to whatever you think I mean. I think I'd be less inclined to want to get the last word in were it not for the fact that every second post of yours was not a personal attack against me about my alleged support for dictatorial regiemes, something you talk about but never have time to substantiate. I can make stupid accussation based on my own personal fantasy life as well.

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July 30, 2009 - 6:16am
#56 [256] (permalink) [257]

Looks like I was wrong, I may not even get the last word in at three AM PST.  You are truly amazing, last thing at night, first thing in the morning, if anyone dares express a contrary opinion there you be.  If you want to whine about personal attacks then you should stop attacking others first.  I'm afriad I'm still quite working class in that way. 

Your defence of authoritarian regimes is not a personal aspersion or "fantasy" but easy enough for anyone with a half open mind to see, but feel free to feel smug for a few more days.  I know how persistent you can be so I'd prefer a few more free hrs to deal with other more interesting subjects. Getting late even for this nighthawk so if youre still around you can still get that all important last word in. Or first thing tomorrow.  I suspect I'll be sleeping in a bit tomorrow.

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July 30, 2009 - 6:30am
#57 [262] (permalink) [263]

Ok, listen. I am finally going to post a complaint about your ongoing unjustified personal off topic attacks, trolling and stalking. Its pretty clear that you have far less interest in Iran than pursuing your grudge match. Satisfied?"

Posted just so the records aren't altered.

You should get over yourself Erik.

And you should mind your own business, whoever you are.  I do not take kindly to those who attack me then threaten to ban me when I fight back.  Comprende?  I post this so this won't be twisted on me again, as has happened too many times here before, not only to myself.  Facts talk bullshit walks.  Have a nice day. 

But maybe youre right on onething, I'll shorten it to the point, just so it doesn't look like I'm actually doing what I'm doing.  Defending myself from dishonest manupaltion for the hundredth time here. 

Nothing in that rather lengthy post indicates that I support "dictatorial regiemes", as you repeatedly assert. Try again.

I have no interest in having you banned. I do have an interest in having your behaviour moderated, so that you are not posting constant unfounded, unevidenced personal attacks, and carrying on this personal (usually) off-topic vendetta against me from thread to thread, day after day.

And now.....back to Iran?

What is happening there is really central to understanding what has taken place in the middle east in the entire Post  War period.

CB:  "Nothing in that rather lengthy post indicates that I support "dictatorial regiemes", as you repeatedly assert. Try again.

I have no interest in having you banned. I do have an interest in having your behaviour moderated, so that you are not posting constant unfounded, unevidenced personal attacks, and carrying on this personal (usually) off-topic vendetta against me from thread to thread, day after day."

You were the one that brought that up again here not me, it had nothing to do with my posts here until you made it so, therefore it's not my "constant" personal attacks, you asked for it.  You also made a series of baseless attacks against me, in each post after I tried to beg off.  Then you threatened to complain to the mods when I was responded to them, albiet in a less than respectful manner.  That is the only reason why I wasted so much time rerunning this today, not petty ego as another implied.  Even my initial comment earlier was an indirect response to your ceaseless attacks on the NDP and baiting of myself and the imbalance of it all.  

If you DO want me to go into why I think IRan is a dictatorial regime and why I think you are indeed defending it (for whatever reason) then yes, I will do so this weekend, as I had also repeatedly stated, but do not act offended if I broach the subject again THen and insist I'm only doing so to carry on a 'personal vendetta' against you.  If you do not want to go into it anymore then I will drop the subject now at your request, nomore questions asked, but do not act then like I only made it all up for some other supposedly arbitrary reasons either and resurrect it every chance you get.  I am only limited by time right now and, yes, a preference for other less contentious issues.  But you cannot have it both ways.  Yes or no, it's up to you.

That is true. In this thread the quote I was referring too was from the night before in the thread where you went wildly off-topic and started talking about Iran. And it is not as if you have not repeated the charge over and over and over again, here. I just thought it ironic that you would accuse me of one day of supporting dictatorial regiemes such as the one in Iran, and then the next day, quite innocently post Zizek making more or less the same point about "western democracy", and not accuse him of supporting "dictatorial regiemes". 

I agree that Iran has dictatorial and authoritatian aspects. My point is, and has always been that it is hard to distinguish the very narrow scope of politics as practiced in Iranian democracy, with the "democracy" of countries like the United States, and other western democracies. Zizek from your link, and it is most definitely worth repeating:

Defintely more eloquent than anything I could put together, but more or less the same point. However, for someone reason you do not construe Zizek's assessment of the failure of "liberal democracy", as a defence of theorcratic autocracy and Amedinejad and Khatemi. He is saved from being victim to such bold slanders, whereas I am not.

When I say something like that it is a"ploy to distract", as you put it, attention away from the excesses of the Iranian state, in order to defend it, or so you say, as part of my apparently never ending quest to spread evil or something like that. That is one of the reasons I thought it particularly humourous when you posted one of my favourite post-Marxist (lol) thinkers on this thread saying precisely what I have been saying in the face of your objection that I am thus defending dictatorship.

I wouldn't dwell too much on it.  Everyone has a purpose you know.

But, in order to make this point one has to do two things:

The first is to show how very capable the state aparatus here is of emulating the kinds of authoritarian measures instituted in Iran, including repression of dissent, and the fixing of elections. The second is to show that "evil" is not absolute in the case of Iran, and in fact emulate many of the norms we have here, such as a modicum of democractic debate, somewhat functional legal processess, occassional inquiries into the excesses of state officials and so on and so forth, and all those things we pat ourselves on the back for having because the powers that be like to assure us that are way of being, and our ideology is essentially superior, just as IRNA likes to assure the Iranians of the same. This way you draw to together the two examples in an effort to find a truly cross national understanding, outside of the petty black and white conceptual constructs that each ideology demands of its people to instill them with fear of each other.

Zizek

It would be nice if Erik and Cueball could take their argument to another thread.

Well, you see, he can't because you can't start a thread about "Cueball supports Dictatorial Regiemes" because its against Babble policy to name a poster in a thread title because it a trolling personal attack, and so he is forced to drag this dingey little slur from one thread to another, be it here in the Iran thread, or in threads about possible changes to the NDP's branding, in a series of small scale trolling personal attacks. Hence, what am I to do but argue the point, since no one seems to care to stop him from this trolling?

Besides, posting Zizek was a primo basis for discussion.

The plot thickens: President Ahmadinejad Alienating Allies in Iran

Of course, superiority is an underlying theme, and not just on a political or governmental construct level.  Supremacy is all encompassing.

London Based Activists 'Coordinating' Iranian Protest Movement

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/5941266/London...

"We were never after revolution but the implementation of the republican democracy promised to the Iranian people 30 years ago.."

Factional Struggles Deepen Within Iranian Ruling Elites

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/iran-a01.shtml

"The US above all wants a regime in Tehran more sympathetic to American strategic and economic interests in Central Asia and the Middle East, particularly at present to assist with the escalation of war in Afghanistan and Pakistan.."

US Tells Israel: Iran Has 8 Weeks

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/dreyfuss/457626/us_tells_israel_iran_has_... [279]

What made you think I was going to open a thread titled "Cueball supports dictorships"? Wasn't that exactly the kind of thing I was arguing against on the other thread?  There's lots of other ways to address this further, from picking a phrase used in another then opening another around it to simply reopening another one, part X, and carrying on where it left off.  Seen it done all the time.  Or maybe we could just discuss this from a more positive angle, like why democracy is essential to socialism, but since youve done such a good job of painting me as the bad guy again, I think I should just put this off again.  There really are other other less contentious subjects I'd like to address.  If you see that as a sign of weakness on my part though, free to carry this on yourself, and I'll gladly take part secure in the knowledge I can't be blamed for it.  That would be nice.        

Re Zizak, it wasn't a question of Zizak being the centre of this debate.  I love how you redefine everything to your advantage.  For the 5th time he was just the guy I chose as an example of differences on the Marx-ian left over this issue; I don't feel I have to agree with everything someone else writes to reference them. Chomsky said he considered Lacan a charming hoax, but then I don't always agree with Noam either.  I will add that I don't believe your arguments are identical, for example the hypocracy of Burlosconi visiting him has no bearing on my arguments at all.  I am the one insisting the world isn't divided into two camps, not you.  And he comes to rather different conclusions that you do.

In some quarters perhaps but I hope this doesn't mean your buying into this as the over-arching theme too.  Of course Western governments are spinning that way, what did you expect?  But does that mean that others who oppose theorcracies in all their forms are necessarily in the hands of the fundamentalist and neo-liberal allies in America?  If that is assumed as a given, then wouldn't the opposite be true as well, those who oppose Americas regime are necessarily supporting Islamic fundamentalism?  But before that is turned around me yet again I will say there are a couple small but essential differences in our positions here as well.

"Mr Saderigh escaped Tehran after spending five years in prison for underground democratic activities. His body is scared from acid burns and other forms of torture. He tours London in a battered Vauxhall with a laptop in the boot to set up meetings and raise funds for the campaign. The pair have supplied followers with green wrist bands and T-shirts to distribute at demonstrations. But the most important aspect of their work to pass messages between supporters under surveillance at home."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/5941266/London...

I thought that part was interesting.

Opposing theocracies is one thing, and certainly they are to be despised.  However, when opposition to these regimes extend to moral support of the various neo-liberal/fundamentalist projects, especially within so called democratic societies, to my mind, supremacist notions cannot entirely be excluded from the rationale of an individual who has no capital stake in the endeavour.  In the absence of a personal monetary attachment, what other reason could exist other than the desire to impose ones own value system upon another nation. 

The colonial models of the past and present, when viewed by the general population through media proliferation are rife with examples of cultural and moral superiority propaganda.  It is rarely put forth as economic and political hegemony by the elite.  People who buy into the perils of Islamic fundamentalism are indeed in hand with theocracy of another sort, which serves as a tool for  imperialism.  Usually they are dismissive of the idea that it couldn't exist in isolation, that it is in reaction to all that western tyranny has wrought.

What is presented to us under the guise of freedom of choice is a false construct, an either/or, a with us or against us trap, our 'superior' civilization versus someone else's.  We've been programmed toward making the obvious selection, because despite whatever realization that may occur within us of the revolting nature of armed conflict, the prevailing view that has been demonstrated so often has been that we know what is best for others, as agonizing as it may be, because after all, we're constantly reminded that freedom comes at a cost.

MRZine Sinks to New Lows:

http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/mrzine-sinks-to-new-lows/

"Apparently forced to deal with the almost unanimous opposition to Ahmadinejad by Iranian leftist intellectuals in the West as well as the obstreperous native Iranian commenters left on its website, MR Zine has printed a breathtakingly demagogic and stupid article.."

Show Trial: Iran Reformists Back Down

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090801/wl_afp/iranpolitics [285]

"I say to all my friends and all friends who hear us, that the issue of fraud in Iran was a lie and was brought up to create riots so Iran becomes like Afghanistan and Iraq, and suffers damage and hardship.."

And while the internal struggle continues (both here and abroad), the "3,400 Iranian dissidents"(one assumes that number includes the children)  now catching hell in eastern Iraq from Iraqui police, according to a NYTimes blurb, seem to be ignored. I have just now learned of the existence of this "socialist" revolutionary force from Wiki :

People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran
سازمان مجاهدين خلق ايران
Sāzmān-e Mojāhedin-e Khalq-e Irān

Leader
Seddigeh Hosseini (Secretary General)

Founded
1965 [287]

Headquarters
Camp Ashraf [288], Iraq [289]

Ideology [290] Islamic Socialism [291]

Website

Official Website of the PMOI [292]

The People's Mujahedin of Iran (PMOI, also MEK, MKO) (Persian [293]: سازمان مجاهدين خلق ايران sāzmān-e mojāhedin-e khalq-e irān) is an Islamic socialist [294] organization that advocates the overthrow of the Islamic Republic [295] government of Iran.

Founded in 1965, the PMOI was originally devoted to armed struggle against the Shah of Iran [296], capitalism [297], and Western imperialism [298].[1] [299] The group claims to have renounced violence in 2001[2] [300] and today it is the main organization in the National Council of Resistance of Iran [301] (NCRI), an "umbrella coalition" claiming the role of a parliament-in-exile dedicated to a democratic [302], secular [303] and coalition government in Iran. The group has had thousands of its members for many years in bases in Iraq, but according to the British Broadcasting Corporation [304] "they were disarmed in the wake of the US-led invasion and are said to have adhered to a ceasefire [305]."[3] [306]

Considerable controversy surrounds the issues of whether the NCRI is merely a front group [307] for the PMOI[4] [308][5] [309]; whether the NCRI is involved in terrorism, or if it is "a legitimate dissident organization fighting for democracy in Iran"[6] [310] whose Western accusers are attempting to use as a bargaining chip in negotiation with its enemy the Islamic Republic of Iran [311].

The PMOI's armed wing is, or was, called the National Liberation Army of Iran (NLA). The Iranian government officially refers to the organization as the Monafeqin (literally, "Hypocrites"), maintaining that PMOI is not truly Islamic.[7] [312]

The United States [313], Canada [314], Iraq [289], and Iran [315] have designated the PMOI a terrorist organization [316].[8] [317][9] [318] On January 26, 2009, the Council of the European Union [319] agreed to remove the PMOI from the EU terror list. The group said it was the outcome of a "seven-year-long legal and political battle".[10] [320][11] [321][12] [322][13] [323]

Has this group's impending fate been discussed in the context of Iran's recent  history?  Or the European/// "United States, Canada, Iraq, Iran" division? Or the awful fate awaiting all the People's Mujahedin of Iran, men, women and kids?

Sorry if this is "out of thread", and perhaps it HAS been discussed here at some length?  It is in today's news, and offered up as a relief from the "you did,I didn't" exchange to date.

This formation has been put down by the mullah's Shia friends in Iraq. You are right to bring it up as it is a serious development. Thanks for posting this.

Live Blogging from Tehran Show Trial:

http://shooresh1917.blogspot.com/2009/08/im-live-blogging-from-tehran-ge...

"more than 100, accused of failed velvet-coup project"

Iran: Which side are you on continued..

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14601 [327]

"the real challenge for the Western left is not which side, if any, to support in Iran but to focus our energies on changing the policies of our respective governments which are bent on regime change in Iran by one means or another. To assume otherwise is pure self-delusion"

International Left Should Stop Supporting Iran's Islamic Regime

http://rdfi.org/ [328]

"the response of the far left parties to the Iran protests have been either silence, a noncommittal recitation of the facts, or an accusation that US machinations are or will be involved. None of these have endorsed the protests. Why is this?"

How to Proceed Forward

http://revolutionaryflowerpot.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-proceed-forwar... [329]

"the purpose of this note is to point out some of the obstacles to the expansion of the Iranian communists' activities"

Now were getting somewhere, I question your starting premise on a couple points but the differences may now be more a matter of distance than kind.  I'll get back to this later tonight.

Why indeed?  If this opposition is indeed extended as support for other fundamentalist enterprises like neo-conservativism. Thank you for recognising the first point, without that there is very little room for dialogue left.

Yes they are. 

Not anymore but at one time it was seen as ok if not patriotic. Now people have to be misled by a full array of supposedly independent sources, ones which at one time may have been a bit more independent and skeptical themselves -even within Empire.  Even Chomsky exaggerates abit there IMO.  Progress in one area often coincides with reaction in another if the truly powerful feel threatened.

Don't you think that's a bit of a generality and rather insulting to the intelligence of those who can see the perils of all faith based politics, but refuse to be manipulated on either side of it?  Even most American Liberals recognise some dangers in interfering in other peoples politics and in hindsight how often its based more on "their" interests than others.  Liberals however are often like socialists without memory, they like easy money too much.  Neo-Cons OTOH openly proclaimed that defending "our interests abroad" was ok.  Sometimes it "blows back" on conservatives too though, and their interests too may eventually be better served by "pulling out", like in the last stages of Vietnam or Afghanistan. Even "our" past mistakes can be addressed if we learn from them, whether our elites like it or not.

The mistake I see being made here repeatedly (if not consciously) is not adequately distinguishing the differences in perceptions and attitudes between individuals within each and every nation and political culture, and how those differences can often lead in very differrent directions -with more intelligent management perhaps.   Always pointing back to "our culture" or "our history" in response to criticising others, eg, would not be effective politically with most people in my opinion -not if its the only response used.  Not in regards to places that may in fact happen to be more harshly repressive -even now.  There may however be other better ways of appealing to the mainstreams better instincts.  It has happened in the past.

What is "presented" however is not what has to be accepted internally, if a wide enough variety of more or less disinterested sources are available and part of our particular upbringing.   "We" does not exist in the realm of thought, except in so far as we accept others opinions as received wisdom or independent truth. 

Objectivity does not exist within our minds, on that the post-modernist/structuralist movement may be correct.  But most minds are capable of perceiving more or less objectively in regards to certain facts theyve learned to exist in relation to others, in most instances anyhow, all via direct experience, our memories of them and an actually quite accurate sensory aparatus -denying that is Eurasian philosophy's most profound error IMO.  And we are all capable of looking at events with some disinterest if we become more aware of the very real programming that goes on around us - not all from one quarter- and can maintain some emotional distance. Even the powerful at times.  The farther we are from the source of events however, the more mediators and filters are involved -on all sides -and those who forget that are more prone to manipulation by others.   Luckily even the powerful have limits. 

What your focus on our "white supremacist society" keeps missing is how much of this movement may in fact reflect wide spread sentiment in Iran, arrived at by their own bitter expereience dealing with theocrats and their military leiutenants, as the example I requoted above actually indicated.  Sanizadeh commented on that himself but was ignored.  We can and do at times care about others outside our own identified circles, even with no financial incentives involved.  It again depends on how closely we identify with the human versus the mechanisms of state.

Let's try to state the case for the People's Mujahedin of Iran, some 3400 men, women and kids trapped in eastern Iraq, where they were driven on ascension of the Ayatollahs in Iran.

This socialist and secular group, formed to rid the country of the Shah in the mid 1960s, were driven out because of their secular position. And now, with the Shia administration of Iran, demanding their return - to "God" knows what fate - the Iraqui administration with its Shia leanings, seems to be releasing the police dogs against these people, despite their promise leave them in peace on departure of the U.S.forces.

Meanwhile, back in the modern, "humanitarian" world, the European Union nations have voted to declare the PMI not terrorists.

But from what I could gather, above, the U.S. and its follower, Canada (together with Iraq and Iran) still classify these people as terrorists.  And, of course, their secular, socialist ideology could strike terror in the minds of the supernaturally driven.

I would think that a political position on these  people in their very precarious position might be warranted. In fact, it seems to me that their situation would make a wonderful test case for the jottings and speeches of one Tarek Fatah. That is, if he considered them "terrorists", he would be exposed as a complete dilettante.

I hope that some people could simply state their position on these people. It would seem their existence and situation tends to complicate straight-line ideologies, sowing confusion and tendentiousness among their pat "lines".  Or do I have that wrong? A straightforward position isn't possible here?

That would require a level of vanity that would inexorably lead to the belief that my own views exist in isolation.  Fortunately, I've  been somewhat successful in managing it, at least to the point of recognizing that others are capable of independent analysis in their own right.  What I did say was "people who." as opposed to everyone everywhere, although the various polling data on foreign adventures can be misleading, making it appear that more and more individuals are waking up to a new reality.  I'll try to expand upon this a little further down post.

I believe the key point here is populism.  What we have now certainly can be described as intelligent management, albeit the cold, heartless variety that instinctively senses the buttons that require pushing in order to achieve the desired outcome among the people.  There can be no way forward, no prospect of creating a society that ignores those impulses and instead demands accountability through whatever means required, unless the starting point includes a thorough examination of our culture and history, revised to reality instead of the whitewashed and sanitized version, the one we're intimately familiar with.  Looking beyond ourselves and the manipulated knowledge ignores the squalor of our own condition, doing so is a well worn path where successive generations who seek to develop an understanding of the world around them start without a shred of credibility.  The ignorance is passed down as fact until it becomes impenetrable mythology.  The only existing appeal to the mainstream, and it has nothing to do with better instincts, is cost.  The downward track of the favourable opinion data alone, for the Iraq war in the US, and the Afghanistan war in Canada, is instructive.  Both were popular endeavours on the cheap.  The population gradually reacted as the cost to themselves rose beyond acceptable limits, as the illusion of superiority was revealed as a pipe dream.  Still though for the most part, conscience appears to be reserved for fallen heroes and depleted treasuries.  The mistake in my opinion would be to confuse this false awakening as collective mourning for the uncounted lives that have been destroyed by western society from Palestine to Pakistan, and in other places on record. 

I am not interested in the domestic sentiments being expressed in Iran, it is for them alone to decide their own destiny.  Partisan accounts of what is transpiring there, that seek to influence western opinion is another example of how our perceptions are sought out and manipulated, beyond what should be the case, feeding back into the dominant mindset where we continue to believe that our influence is the key, which in turn provides fodder to our leaders to enact policies that serve their own interests.  Certainly, we can care about others, until the concern becomes imposing what is best for them, through our concepts, ideas and structures.  Having a partner currently visiting that country, I care a great deal about what is happening there, but have no preference as to the conclusion of the process, because I am not one of them.  I find it helpful to apply that model in personal analysis of every geo-political circumstance.

Do you extend this black-and-white model to other similar arguments, or is it merely reserved for Islamic fundamentalism? For instance:

"Those who buy into the perils of capitalism are indeed in hand with another sort which serves as a tool for Stalinism..."

"Those who buy into the perils of colonialism are indeed in hand with another sort which serves as a tool for racist nationalism..." 

"Those who buy into the perils of nazism are indeed in hand with another sort which serves as a tool for zionism..."

Yes, the root and beginning of islamic fundamentalism may be a reaction to western tyranny. It was a social phase. Now that the same nation that turned to Islamic fundamentalism against western tyranny, now try to fights its way out of the suffocating, inhuman web of theocratic rule, it is accused as aiding the imperialism?

This line of thinking is, in fact, another side of the colonialist mind in which, it seems, everything in the world revolves around the western politics. The colonialist mind cannot accept that some people in far away land may indeed have a desire for freedom and justice. No, these are not for non-westerners. If they want it, they must have been agents of imperialism.

Is it just Iran that gets the pass or do you apply the same rule in dealing with Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Honduras and elsewhere? If a Palestinian reports on the abuse and human right violations, would you be as dismissive as accusing him of trying to "manipulate the wstern mindset"?

Mousavi's Latest Statement About the Trial:

http://iranfacts.blogspot.com/2009/08/mousavis-10th-statement-in-reactio...

"They say that the children of revolution have confessed to have been in cahoots with foreigners to topple the regime. I have paid close attention to their statements and didn't find anything but a deep sigh with which they told us of their painful 50 days. Crushed humans who could have confessed to a lot of other things when forced, said nothing but the tale of their pains...The only certain public verdict after watching such a ceremonial court is the moral decadence and lack of credibility of those who run it.."

or the "moral decadence and lack of credibility of those who support" it. The stab in the back of Iranian freedom fighting people by the armchair socialists in places like Canada is to be expected. Just look around and it's not hard to see who the real agents of western imperialism are. The loss of "support" from such "leftists" is a ridiculous notion since you can't lose that which never existed in the first place.

Islamic fundamentalism as it is presented to us at every turn that is, without an origin and without the prospect of reconciliation, or at least co-existence.  Whether we believe in the lies, omissions and propaganda or not, my contention is that we participate through the mere act of voting for the various entities seeking to represent us that do not spare as a priority, every effort to shout down and expose the falsehoods.  I can't really comment on the rest of your dichotomies, as there's no logic to them.

On their own terms, it is within any nation's right to struggle internally against anything they see as unfit to their interests.  What does it matter, our opinion of which side has the greater appeal among the population?  There is no shortage of outside perspectives, policies, strategies, or interventions at the ready to assist, depending on the interests involved, through which history demonstrates that the wisest course of action is to be wary of them all.

Perhaps it is.  I'd wager that very few participants within our dominant patriarchy can entirely escape its influence upon the way things are viewed on a personal level.  But then you might consider that what we apparently have, that which supposedly is being intentionally withheld, is viewed by the withholder as superior.  They can have what they want, there or anywhere for that matter, and ultimately if it comes to bear a resemblance with our own dystopia, then so be it.  You'll have to look elsewhere for the sales pitch though, I've never been good at that.

It is the right of anyone to speak against the actions or inactions of their own government representatives as it pertains to the manner in which they conduct foreign policy.  Likewise, because of the overwhelming collective influence that western corporate governance has upon the decisions that our representatives undertake, we have the right to criticize those influences and demand change, or an end to them.  As for crimes against humanity, rights violations, abuses of power in other countries that do not exert an influence upon our own, beyond recognizing the truth of what occurs, my view is that we have little to offer as an alternate model, and given our history, any attempt to do so is paternalistic at best, and at worst, a continuing manifestation of supremacy.

Slumberjack:

I believe, sanizadeh,  you were just given the postmodernist's argument from relativism on something "without an origin and without the prospect of reconciliation." Although I'm not entirely sure, since there was also something about voting in your own bailiwick.  It became too turgid beyond that point.

But how about that huddled group of humanity that bought into a socialist, secular answer to government for Iran, now awaiting their fate ...the People's Mujahadin of Iran.  Hell, some of them could have descended from Mossadegh initial following.

Could we have a statement in clear English, just how one should respond to their threatened extermination?

Here's a thought George...how about a thread dealing with MeK issues.  You can start one, and the grown ups will be along after we finish up here.

I'm afraid, Slumberjack, that from the circularity introduced into this one, it will never "finish" - just go round the philosophical clock.

And for one who says that "Islamic fundamentalism" as "presented" to us is lacking an "origin", it seems to me incumbent on folks discussing Iran to try to find it. Those poor bastards parked off in the desert awaiting their fate rate mention in that regard. 

Thing is this George. The idea that there is something exceptionally brutal about the Iranian governement is only available to you, if you look at western governments from the center of the empire. Nice and quite here. But if the issue is "enforcement" of ideological conformity through force, seriously, there is a very good arguement to be made that USA and the rest of NATO make Ayatollah's look like boy scouts. This dislocation you are having is probably because you have never felt the terrible force applied by the west when it seeks to enforce that ideological conformity, outside of the home turf. The way we do this conjuring trick is by pretending their is a liminal difference between, say, what the US army is doing in Afghanistan, and what the Islamic state of Iran is doing in its own country.

For some reason, once "we" say we are at war, then the gloves are off, and the slaughter begins, and "we" the people who live in more comfortable circumstances often accept at the very least that the rules change when we are outside of our own country and we are calling it "war". But in reality its still "enforcement" it is still "ideology" and it is still "force". Plenty of it. Daily. Stinking bloody murder.

It is not as if they bother to have "show trials" before they shoot Afghan militants. At least the Ayatollah's have the decency to pretend they are following some kind of legal process.

So we call it a "war" and we file it away in a seperate cabinet. Then we like to talk about domestic circumstance, and compare those in nice compartments, and wonder: "Gee how come these Islamic guys are particularly blood-thirsty". If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

Not to say that Islam hasn't had its share of rank bloody murder, but in the state of the world today, its not they who are doing the "exceptional" blood thirsty mass slaughter it is us. If you are going to ask, what makes Islamic fundamentalism particularly "blood thirsty" in this day and age, you might as well ask what has made christian "secularism" particularly genocidal.

The only reason we don't really get a taste for the mass domestic repression here is in my view simply a matter of economics, not some subtle ideological subtext, or wholey new ontology. Not at all, our boys are out there everyday making it safe for consumerism, while our corporations rake in the profits, and provide enough of us with rewards that we can afford not to think about it. But it is not so in Iran. In Iran does not have the wealth, or the power to aquire that wealth, and as such conflict in Iran is sharper because people have a lot less to lose.

So, your dreamed of socialist secular paradise, no doubt would have come into being with very much the same level of force, and steady but firm hand on the tools of repression, as the present power that be in Iran, if history is to be any guide. You have to go no further than Iraq and then into Syria to see the results when the tables were turned. It is ironic of course that those bodies in those graves they are finding in Iraq belong more often or not, to "muslim nationalists" of one kind or another, brutally rousted in the middle of the night and shot in order to disappear them from the history books.

And of course the MSM glosses over this point, when we are prosecuting the war on terror, and trots out the mass graves of the dead "Islamists" as part of the proof of the heinous nature of Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and its fundamental inferiority to our system on humanitarian grounds because we are nice to "our own people", so that we can justify slaughtering the secular socialist nationalist as well.

Indeed, in post revolutionary Iran, no doubt the secular socialiast would have had to have done a great deal of killing in order to hold the power that they had won, and a great number of those would have been the so-called "Islamists" you prattle on about.

Actually, that's not the whole story here Cueball. The US really is a monster.

The Penal State in an Age of Crisis

 I don't hold a one-sided position in "ranking"  the bloodletting, Cue. And I understand the "opiates" at work in popular Western consumerism.

And hell, I marched around in ban the bomb protests and worked hard to stave off extinction through several U.S.presidents...but particularly in Ron Raygun's time.

But maybe  we are not entering into some kind of comparisons of human sensibility and activism here? Hope not. I'd just like to speak to the questions straight up, know what is going on, be able to bring clarity to the right questions, end the endless obfuscation.

Well, actually you do. Specifically you noted the other day regarding Tarek Fatah's book regarding "Islamism":

The particularly bloodyo-minded within his own faith, Cue.

But carry on in shunning the book. 

Back this evening to review any further additions to your post.

Islam has always had its bloody minded segment. It's not as if there has been a sea-change. And that is the whole issue with the ideological standpoint you are teaming up with when you start talking Fatah. The who premise is based on "exceptionalism" -- There is something particularly exceptional and sinister going on right now among Muslim people.

The idea that there is this "exceptional" phenomena going on among Muslim people is indeed the heart and sole of the ideological premise that justifies the war on terror, and is conceptual nexus upon which our superiority, and our right to act upon that superiority is hinged. It is also what justifies our right to treat Muslims in general as "execeptions", people without rights, who can be picked up and shipped off to Guantanmo Bay, on the mere suggestion that they might have something to do with this exceptional element, and thus abrogates the rights of all Muslims regardless of where they live, what they think or what they believe.

From what I can surmise, Iran is not a country bereft of material possessions and wealth, although class disparity certainly exists, as it does here.  As a highly educated nation, I would chalk it up to being better informed on current events through a variety of widely accessible domestic sources, a state of awareness which we can only imagine with chagrin taking root here.

Relations with Iraq under Saddam Hussein

The PMOI transferred its headquarters to Iraq in 1986, during the Iran-Iraq War. According to the US State Department, the PMOI received all of its military support and most of its financial assistance from Saddam's government until the 2003 Invasion of Iraq. The PMOI also has used front organizations to solicit contributions from expatriate Iranian communities.

The PMOI's decision to move its headquarters to Iraq in the middle of the war - which was started by an invasion by the Iraqi army and cost many tens of thousands of Iranians lives - caused the PMOI to lose most of its supporters in Iran, regardless of their views towards the Iranian government.  A report by the Foreign Affairs group of the Australian Parliament states the PMOI "is believed to have lost much of its popular support within Iran since siding with Iraq".

Human Rights Abuses [348]

In May 2005, Human Rights Watch revealed that the PMOI were running prison camps within Iraq and were committing severe human rights violations.  The report described the PMOI as a cult held under the tight control of Maryam Rajavi. The report prompted a response by the PMOI and a few friendly MEPs (European MPs), who published a counter-report in September 2005. They noted that HRW had "relied only on 12 hours interviews with 12 suspicious individuals", and stated that "a delegation of MEPs visited Camp Ashraf in Iraq" and "conducted impromptu inspections of the sites of alleged abuses." Alejo Vidal-Quadras Roca (PP), one of the Vice-Presidents of the European Parliament, alleged that Iran's Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS) was the source of the evidence against the PMOI.

Statement on Responses to Human Rights Watch Report [349]

Prompted by the FOFI document, Human Rights Watch re-interviewed all 12 of the original witnesses, conducting private and personal interviews lasting several hours with each of them in Germany and the Netherlands, where the witnesses now live. All of the witnesses restated their claims about the PMOI camps from the 1991-2003 period, saying PMOI officials subjected them to various forms of physical and psychological abuses once they made known their wishes to leave the organization.

It isn't that complicated after all.  Its the nature of the business they've been involved with for some time.  Knowing some of them personally, I hope a third safe country can be organized that will accommodate them on humanitarian grounds.  The alternative is frightening.

I guess it does go with the business of revolution.

Saw it posted somewhere the other day: All right, I've seen the broken eggs.  Where's the omelette.

Always the broken eggs as part of the price.

And yes, I hope someone can get them all out.

True enough, but it is vulnerable to boycott and sanctions since a modern economy must be integrated with the rest of the world. Hence there are such striking anomalies, such as fairly frequent power outages in Tehran, hence the nuclear power technology. Its not the worst place on earth I think, economically speaking, but somewhere in the middle of the pack.

I wouldn't necessarily come down as hard on George.  I'm sure that after he's figured out the intricacies of the quote function, there'll be room for moving on towards other enigmas.

The quote function, Jack, does not necessarily move discussion forward, but can simply create a back and forth situation of debate and animosity as egos go on the defensive.  Look at the first half of this thread to understand what I mean.

And it's sometimes rather hard to choose the high point to quote in your imponderable dissertations.

Cue:

 " Not at all, our boys are out there everyday making it safe for consumerism, while our corporations rake in the profits, and provide enough of us with rewards that we can afford not to think about it. But it is not so in Iran. In Iran does not have the wealth, or the power to aquire that wealth, and as such conflict in Iran is sharper because people have a lot less to lose."

Perhaps they have more "freedoms" than some of the states near them, and do have a LOT to lose in that regard?

You're right.  It was ungracious of me.  As for my unfathomable prose, I suppose that in making do with what is available, a small amount of comfort can be realized in observing that others are more practiced at it than I, which at the very least is something to strive for.

Long thread.