In Terms of Human Rights, Nobody Teaches Anything to Cuba

It does, but this thread is about how pure and noble Cuba is when it comes to human rights. If you want to talk about Canadian human rights start another thread.

Well, actually its a thread about an interview about how pure and noble Cuba is... My intent in the OP was not necessarily to endorse the position taken by PRAVDA in the linked interview but rather to stimulate some discussion on the subject (and to test out some of the features of the new babble I hadn't tried yet). 

If you were serious about defending the Cuban revolution against imperialism you would not attempt to set arbitrary limits on its ability to defend itself against saboteurs and terrorists.

Cuba is an example to the world of human rights and concern for the well-being of its citizens. Read the title of this thread again; it's very true.

It's far too easy for the armchair left of north america, who have nothing to lose, to snipe at Cuba as if they were some kind of outlaw nation. All it does is give aid and comfort to those who want to misrepresent Cuba as a country that has no regard for human decency. That is a vile lie, that must be combatted at every turn.

The original Maurice Spector would be a fierce defender of Cuba, just as he was of the early Soviet Union.   

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

I wonder how many people on this thread have actually been to Cuba, stayed with people in their homes 'Paladares', eaten the generally miserable excuse they have for food, travelled the empty roads and explored the countryside?

 I have and from what I've seen life in the Socialist Republic of Cuba is hellish at best, people in the countryside especially live in abject poverty akin to the meanest holes in Honduras.

Ironically because the land hasn't been heavily industrialised my own hobby of birding is easy to do and the birds are plentiful-well some of them anyway.

I do have the distinct impression though that the average Cuban would rather eat a bird-any bird-than cater to the slavering tourist hordes from the Sault or well meaning but cack handed  lefties from Canada.

 For all the heartfelt expressions of solidarity one hears from impoverished Cubans I sense a hollowness in their assurances that they will never forget their Canadian friends when Uncle Sam turns his benevolent gaze their way.

 After all these years Uncle Sam is still in their minds day and night and despite the fact that they can trade with anyone anywhere in the world the paradise as promised is as distant as ever.

Do you see, lagatta?

This is the kind of reactionary trash you end up allied with when you start dictating your absolute moral imperatives to the Cuban revolution.

"It is easy for the critical intellectual to be a 'friend of Cuba' in good times, at celebrations and invited conferences, in times of lesser threats. It is much harder to be a 'friend of Cuba' when a totalitarian empire threatens the heroic island and puts heavy hands on its defenders." - James Petras

I have nothing to do with the "armchair left".

I am no ally of imperialism.

Nor of Stalinists like James Petras.

It's entirely possible for both Cuba AND the US to be less than ideal, you know.

Petras is no Stalinist. And if he were, he wouldn't be a defender of the Cuban revolution, whose leaders purged the Stalinists a long time ago. 

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Well, we disagree on Petras. I've read enough of his campist crap. It isn't remotely Marxist. And his almost anti-Semitic take on support for the Palestinians (I have been involved in Palestine support for decades, and a lot of wrangling with babble Zionists)...

The French Wikipedia article on him summarises why many, many radical leftists I know from different continents can't stand the guy:

Plusieurs de ses thèses sont assez controversées au sein de la gauche altermondialiste. Petras considère que les attentats du 11 septembre ne sont pas dus à un groupe islamiste radical et que l'attribution de ces attentats à Al Qaida est injustifiée (voir James Petras, Washington's Conspiracy Theory Rejected, September 24, 2001). Il revendique la défense du patriotisme des Etats-Unis dont la souveraineté serait mise en péril par l'alliance entre le complexe militaro-industriel, l'AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) et le JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs), deux organismes qu'il présente comme formant un "lobby sioniste". D'après lui, la politique des Etats-Unis au Moyen-Orient ne correspond pas aux intérêts de ce pays, mais exclusivement à ceux de ces intérêts privés et de l'État d'Israël. Il prône la constitution d'une alliance contre ce "lobby" qui dépasserait les clivages traditionnels entre la gauche et la droite. Plusieurs courants de gauche ont critiqué ces positions qu'ils qualifient d'antisémites. (Voir: Sam Manuel, More middle class radicals promote Jew-hatred, The Militant, May 15, 2006).

(This quotes "the Militant", but none of the people I know have any link with that journal or current). I prefer quoting the French wiki site as it is les liable to have been freeped by Zionists than the English ones. But many anti-Zionists I know consider Petras an anti-Semite.

Poor Maurice Spector...

I'm amused about the "North Americans"... so Mexicans have no right to criticise Cuba, but Salvadoreans do?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you have nothing left but ad hominem remarks.

How else is one to defend the indefensible?

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Very little French spoken in Cuba.

Yes, Israel was a premier frontline state during the cold war, and now the continuing global war on democracy.

According to wiki, there are four Cuban American members of the United States House of Representatives and two Senators. Cuban Americans are generally supportive of right-wing agendas. A number of Cuban-American terrorist groups operate out of Miami and receive funding and training from the CIA. The CIA has coveted Cuba for decades and would like very much to use Cuba as a conduit for running illicit drugs to the U.S. mainland from its corrupt narco client states Colombia, El Salvador etc Haiti is another traditional waypoint for importing drugs to the U.S. by the CIA and connected friends in organized crime.

There is no justification for Cuba retaining the death penalty just like there is no justification for the US retaining the death penalty.

I lolled.

Funny, many many radical lefists I know love him.

Um, according to Wiki (since it seems popular in here) Maurice Spector was a zionist... I'm getting really confused about what M Spector supposedly should or shouldn't do to live up to his apparent namesake. Thanks for clueing me in to the guy though, I'd never made the connection before somehow! If you don't mind saying so Spector why'd you chose the name?

And very few Cubans are posting in this thread; coincidence?

There is no justification for the US period.

Indeed, but it is also questionable when one holds aggressive superpowers and their victims to the same standards.

It reminds me of Anatole France's dictum:

Nobody has the right- and least of all the US- to be teaching the Cubans about human rights.

But the Communist Party uses this as a cover for acting as if it also means they have nothing to learn about human rights.

Party leaders and member will talk endlessly about progress they need to make on human rights.... but only ones they acknowledge as being important or 'relevant to Cuba'.

Unionist: Great post

Ken: Were you refering to the interview in the OP or do you have any other source for your latest comment? I'm not sure exactly what you mean...

This thread is hilarious. Cuba would be even poorer if Canadians and Europeans had the same lack of rights as Cubans, ie not allowed to travel for pleasure. It is pure hypocrisy to stay in a four-star hotel and be waited on by Cubans who will never and are not allowed to stay in these same hotels. Some socialism! It is dependent on capitalist tourism for survival. And even at that, the standard of living is very poor. Travellers vacationing to Cuba often bring soap, tampons, toothbrushes etc. as tips for hotel staff, which are much appreciated. It is sad that there can be no honest discussion of this country on this board.

I wasn't specifically referring to the text of the opening post. If anything I was referring to the title.

Since that interview is conducted by people who themselves have a limited and self serving idea of human rights, its no surprise they ask questions in the most favourable possible manner.

My comment stands as is: a general point about what you hear when the leaders of Cuba respond to tougher questions from progressives who distance themselves from the self serving way the human rights hammer is used on Cuba, and who acknowledge what Cuba has achieved.

Hence my saying that the Communist Party uses the transparently political nature of most attacks on their human rights record as a cover for acting as if it NO ONE- Cuban as well as foreign- has anything to say about human rights that they should listen to.

Party leaders and member will talk endlessly about progress they need to make on human rights.... but only ones they acknowledge as being important or 'relevant to Cuba'.

 In terms of honest discussion, I meant that anytime one speaks a factual statement that negative of Cuba, there is a chorus of voices that accuses one of supporting US Imperialism.

I don't support socialism, so I will be up front about that. I would support a social democratic model.  My question is how can what Cuba has be called socialism if it depends on capitalist tourists to survice? If Canadians and Europeans had the same model and laws as Cuba, (ie not disposible income and not allowed pleasure travel) where would Cuba be? Raul Castro has been making some promissing reforms in terms of recognizing more of rights of Cubans, but there is still a very long way to go.

 It is because Canadians and Europeans have the right to earn and spend disposable income and freely travel when they please that Cuba has such a prosperous tourism industry. I have met a man who escaped from Cuba via a boat and is not a CIA terrorist or paid by the US or anything else. He is simply a man who wanted more personal freedom in his life and he now lives in Canada.  

Ghislaine, I don't think it is fair to compare the disposable income of Canadians and Western Europeans with the Cuban standard of living. Cuba has a very high rate of "human development" (education, healthcare, income, sexual and racial equality) and an exceptional one for the part of the world it is located in. The initial post was utterly correct about that. This also means less violent crime than in nearby countries such as Haiti, Dominican Republic, Salvador or Nicaragua - where there is a veritable "war on women" of unpunished rapes, beatings and often killings.

I am a socialist, and I think Cuba is most admirable in many ways.

I know lots of people in this neighbourhood from the above countries - alas if they arrived via boat the US would most likely have turned them back or allowed them to die.

Tourism as an income-generating industry is very contradictory indeed, as in a relatively poor country (not just Cuba, all the countries in the region) it inevitably means the sex trade, perhaps drugs, and the development of all kinds of traffics. But no country can live as an island.

That is one of the reasons Cubans may not have access to hotels for tourists from the global North. It pisses Cubans off (they might not be able to afford the hotel room, but they would enjoy splurging on a drink at the bar, and dancing). But the sex trade, often involving teens of both sexes, bothers them more.

One development that I see as most positive for Cuba and for human rights (in the political and free-speech sense) is the growing ties with other progressive governments in Latin America. This doesn't just give Cuba access to petroleum from Venezuela and foodstuffs from Ecuador and Bolivia, and those countries access to Cuban healthcare professionals and other technicians, it also opens up eyes and perspectives in both directions. So Cubans to enjoy more access to internet and different press sources, but they also see deeply unequal societies that are often violent ones as well, for this reason.

I pretty much agree with Ken on this thread - Western governments, and in particular the US government which not only has maintained a punishing embargo for decades but also carrying out gross human rights right on the island, at Guantanamo, have no business lecturing Cuba. But the Cuban government uses this hypocrisy to wave off criticism from leftists and human rights activists who are not in the pay of imperialist powers.

It's Me D, thank you for your very thoughtful post in reply to Ghislaine.

Ghislaine I find it mildly amusing that you would be honest in saying that you don't believe in socialism but then you tell people who do how it must be defined.  The biggest market in the world is closed to the productive capabilities of socialist enterprise.  Imperialists work hard to destroy any glimmer of socialism that appears. Instead of preaching about those terrible Cubans why don't you talk about ending the blockade and normalizing trade. There is a context to Cuba and that is a context of perpetual war by the largest military power this planet has ever spawned. Besides prior to 1959 the main industry in Cuba was mafia controlled tourism.  If the imperialists win and the socialist government is defeated the people of Cuba will not see an improvement in their lives.  

The war on terror has seen my country enact fascist style legislation limiting the basic habeas corpus rights that underpin all our rights as citizens in a parliamentary democracy because we MIGHT be the subject of a terrorist attack. I like to put governmental action into the context of the global village but starting with how my country does on the same issues. 

As for old bolsehie trollie tell me why compare the poverty in Cuba to Honduras? Seems to me how it compares to life on First Nations territory in Canada both rural and urban would be a better thing for a Canadian to look at. Otherwise you are merely showing a superiority complex consistent with a true believer in the benefits of being part of the empire. 

So to both of you I ask, Cuba has been at war with a superpower for 50 years what's our excuse?

ROTFLMFAO!!!!

There is no justification for the conveyer belts of death in Texas and Florida and Mississippi and Alabama etc etc no. Cuba does not compare with the U.S. in terms of state-sponsored executions.

Cuba does not compare to the U.S. at all in terms of gulag population. The U.S. incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country in the world.

In fact, the U.S. maintains the largest gulag population on the island of Cuba at Guantanamo where torture and basic human rights abuses are the way.

Cuban's economic despair doesnt even compare with those Central American shitholes just a few day's drive from Crazy George Bush's Texas.

Cuba lost its ability for two-way trade with its largest and most natural geographic trade partner after the revolution. Imagine that Newfoundland or PEI or Vancouver Island was cutoff from exporting anything to Canada and having to import everything from other countries at a high premium.  

I repeat: there is no justification for retaining the death penalty in Cuba. Let me draw the circle wider: there is no justification for retaining the death penalty on Earth.

Fidel, YMMV.

I refuse to equate the vast human rights abuses in the USSA and its client states with anything that occurs in Cuba. Kids go to school all day in Cuba. That isnt true of all El Salvadoran or Guatemalan or Honduran children. Cuba does not have right-wing death squads trained at the infamous Skool of the Americas. Cuba is not a U.S.-sponsored shithole that Haiti is or Dominican Republic or Colombia, Mexico or Peru.

And I dont appreciate being referred to as a Stalinist in the way that Trotskyites bandy that term about in condemning every revolution as imperfect except for that one which will never happen.

Nobody was equating anything. Except for the resident trolls, I'm sure everyone on this board, or at least on this thread, condemns the US prison industry, imperialism and the evils it causes.

That is no excuse for the death penalty, anywhere.

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Off-topic, but I sure advocate a change in government in Mexico, to the ELECTED president, Andrés Manuel López Obrador, not Calderón who stole the election à la Dubya!

Only someone who is completely unfamiliar with what is happening in Cuba and how the Cuban leaders actually respond to these criticisms could make statements like that.

In an interview following the executions of three hijackers in 2003 (the only executions carried out in the last 8 years in Cuba) Fidel Castro made it clear that the Cubans keep the death penalty on the books only as a matter of self defence of the revolution, and that they look forward to the day when they can abolish it. Here's an excerpt:

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Interesting…. death penalty ‘apologentsia.’

Look, his (and by association your) entire argument boils down to "capital punishment is aceptable so long as it's only used against enemies of the state".

Very progressive - not!

I think there should be a policy on this board that support for capital punishment will not be tolerated, similar to the prohibition against taking away a woman's choice. A warning and then banning.

How can anyone who considers themselves progressive support the death penalty... It's like supporting slavery, or state torture.

 Sheesh.

I think there should be a policy on this board of banning all ignorant right-wing twits who pose as "progressives" while equating third-world countries that are trying to get out from under the yoke of imperialism with the countries that oppress them.

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

You're just a fucking peice of shit for supporting the death penalty.

And you know what, go fucking whine to the mods that I called you a fucking piece of shit.

And mods, you want to ban me because I called a supporter of the death penalty a fucking piece of shit, that will say more about you than me...

Since when did the death penalty become an issue of fundamental human rights?

Those who are so high and mighty about it should look to their own country first - before engaging in transparent and disgusting Cuba-bashing:

- Amend the Charter so that the death penalty cannot be reintroduced by some simple act of Parliament.

- Reverse the Harper government new policy of letting Canadian citizens be executed by the U.S. and other "democracies" without protest.

- If you don't want to be outed as an anti-Cuba hypocritical propagandist, make sure to hurl equal levels of invective against the 103 other countries that still have the death penalty on their books.

Calm yourself, please, some decorum if you will.  Now it does mention something or another about discussion of human rights from a progressive standpoint somewhere in the policy.  Although not specifically mentioned, support for the death penalty wouldn't appear to be inclusive as a progressive dialogue on human rights, at least not on the surface.  Unless of course it involves discussion of state sanctioned death being seen as necessary in defence of socialist revolutions or something.  In the absence explicit delineation, the concepts become so perplexing, at least to some apparently.

Thread Title: In Terms of Human Rights, Nobody Teaches Anything to Cuba [74].

Cuba has the death penalty.

Cuba in fact has much to learn from others.

If you don't want to discuss Cuba's death penalty, then don't start threads that are blatantly false... I mean it's not as if people just woke up one morning and decided that it would be fun to dis Cuba.

Feel free to open up a thread on any of those other countries, and we get right to it.  Last time I checked, I saw only one country mentioned in the thread title.

Nice attempt to silence people who oppose the death penalty everywhere for any reason.  I suppose the requirement to string someone up by a rope is all just a matter of context.

The thread title says we have nothing to teach Cuba about human rights.

My view is that it is hypocritical to criticize Cuba (of all countries - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why) on the death penalty when we - you - and I - still allow Canadians to be executed by proxy by a neighbouring country.

It is hypocritical - nay, repugnant - to criticize Cuba for executing its own citizens when our largest media euphorically report on Canadians slaughtering large numbers of Afghans, describing this as a victory.

We have nothing to teach Cuba about human rights. We have much to learn.

Context... What a laugh. Dress up in a uniform, fly to Kandahar, start strutting around like a peacock, then use tanks, assault weapons, and air strikes to kill large numbers of citizens of that foreign country - that context is fine, isn't it. That's not the death penalty.

Oh no.

That's "self-defence".

Hypocrisy and sophistry.

touche!

(no accent thingie on this keyboard...)

It's hypocrisy only if a person has two standards, one for Cuba (or any other other place) and one for everyone else. True progressives have only one standard: No death penalty anywhere. Focus on the anywhere part, please.

It isn't hypocritical to criticize Cuba for maintaining a sanction that progressives everywhere should be against no matter where it is occurring.  There have been more than a few threads against the death penalty jurisdictions in the US and elsewhere, and we've all joined in on those from time to time.  My view is that it is hypocritical to support exceptionalism in any circumstance.  To me the difficulty lies in trying to determine which is worse; an elected official who determines the circumstances while being influenced by tenure of office considerations, or an un-elected official.

I was responding in kind to a self-righteous twit who wanted to silence me for defending the Cuban revolution.

-----

Here's an excerpt from the statement of the Federation of Cuban Women, May 2003

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Start a thread about peacocks strutting around in uniform killing the citizens of Khandhar, and we'll be right along.  I assure you, I don't believe it is fine either.  The question is a simple one really, requiring a straightforward answer, and then we can move along to the next atrocity and condemn it equally.  Is capital punishment in Cuba justified, or not?

I understand the underlying context of the extract you posted.  However, I also see that those justifications for the extermination of a human being, however repugnant those individuals may very well be, could have also come from the Texas State Correctional Services with some slight editing work.

We're talking about an island nation under siege since the 1960's. Since 1991 and Cuba's loss of its largest trade partners, the COMECON block of nations, Cuba has experienced difficulties importing things that just arent possible or feasible to manufacture on the island. 

In addition to the genocidal trade sanctions waged against Cuba by the most influential national security state 90 miles north, Cubans have endured countless attempts by the CIA and Cuban mafia and right-wing terrorist groups based in Florida and operating around the Caribbean, to assassinate Cubans, Fidel himself over 600 times, as well as terrorist assaults on various Cuban infrastructure. The bastards have set off bombs in Cuban hotels in an attempt to cripple tourism to the island.

Cuba is rarely discussed among authorities on Latin America without reference to the 800 pound gorilla, that vicious empire influencing trade and politics in and around the "backyard" wrt age old Monroe Doctrine and U.S. aggression in general since the end of cold war. A number of countries have been threatened with U.S. military aggression since the end of cold war. Millions have died at the hands of U.S. military and NATO since just the 1990's. The threat is real for countries on Uncle Sam's hit list. Cuba also has a right to defend its sovereign interests in any and all ways they see fit, which has to include harsh penalties for violent terrorist acts like hijacking passenger planes and boats and taking them to the U.S. where they are welcomed with open arms by U.S. officials. One might think that hijacking passenger planes and violent terrorism in general would be outlawed in the U.S. and especially since 9-11.

Fidel, how does murdering another human being advance a society?

Ask the Gusanos and CIA sponsored terrorist groups based out of Miami who have murdered at least as many Cubans since the revolution as those who died in the trade towers on 9-11.  

The simple answer is: It is the business of the Cuban people. It is none of your business whatsoever.

Once you make it your business - like whether women should have the right to be educated in Afghanistan or not - then your armed Crusaders follow, to teach the heathen the ways of their superiors.

The Cuban people will decide. They have survived almost 50 years in the face of the hypocritical murderers who preach "democracy" at them. They will survive some more.

So point taken Manitoba, the only thing that Canada has to teach Cuba about human rights is the abolition of the death penalty. Its good you can feel so strongly about the death penalty.

The opening article though was not about the death penalty it was about the struggle for fair press in our media and the constant propaganda war against the revolution. The article talks abou the American aggression and the covert subversion, what to you think about that aspect of the article? 

I wonder about your instant invocation of the death penalty without any comment on how difficult it has been for the Cubans to fight against the 50 year unjust war since that is after all what this thread was started about.

Well. that's not the only thing Canada could teach Cuba about human rights.

While we're all on the subject of human rights, read THIS. And what's Canada doing in Haiti? I'm sure its both human and right by virtue of might.

The assertion by some here that Cuba is somehow under seige-and has been so for umpteen decades-is nonsense.

 Planes fly over Cuba hourly and air transit rights are one of the Cuban Govts major sources of revenue.

Defending Govt sanctioned murder?

 Sad, sad, sad......

"The assertion by some here that Cuba is somehow under seige-and has been so for umpteen decades-is nonsense. "

Piss off. There's no doubt that the USA has been trying for decades to end Cuba's dictatorship. Something about Bay of Pigs and a trade embargo. You may have heard about it.

That doesn't give them reason to murder their own people though, as some on this thread would have you believe.

The notion that Cuba needs defending against these asinine hypocritical charges is rather amusing. Cuba has survived worse attacks and more clever enemies than these.

Lame. Even though it would be wrong to force Cuba to change its law, we can still have an opinion on it.

Thanks for the kind words nice to know it's not just people who support murder whom you abuse.

The Bahia de Cochinos was before many here were born and if the CIA wanted to plug Castro they would have done it long long ago-Cuba is a relatively  small place with few good hiding spots-I know I've cycled over a lot of it.

Remember how quickly the USA took out Noriega, and how rapidly the Govt of Grenada was taken down? 

I agree. And my opinion is that it's the sovereign business of the Cuban people to decide that issue. That's also the opinion of the United Nations, which tolerates 104 member countries that have capital punishment on the books. I'm sure you'll respect my opinion as I do yours.

Some people in this thread, on the other hand, are saying that either you oppose Cuba's policy and law, or you have no business being on a progressive board. Those who say this have sinister motives. But they are also hugely hilarious. My personal theory is that some of their friends or ancestors bit the biscuit at the Bay of Pigs, and they're still stewing over it.

You're a despicable troll. Fidel did agree to U.S. managed elections in Cuba in 1958, but the CIA-Gusano led military attack on Cuba was viewed by Cubans as a signifcant a betrayal of democracy by the U.S. The vicious empire and its CIA-sponsored terrorists have murdered far more Cubans than the three executed by Cuba.

 The only real threat to human rights on the island of Cuba is the illegal American gulag for torture and murder and Guantanamo Bay naval base. One US gulag for torture and basic human rights abuses is so secret that it has no official name.

And what democratic country tries to assassinate another country's leader over 600 times? http://www.638waystokillcastro.com/ [99]

Congresswoman admits calling for Fidel's assassination - Ros-Lehtinen is forced to retract denial - Orlando Sentinel, US 25/12/06 [100]

Holy Fuck! In what paradise do you live? Can I come? I was at a hotel in Niagara Falls just a month ago and I'm certain the woman who changed my sheets couldn't stay at that hotel. And I'm certain there were dozens of people living within a short distance of the hotel who couldn't afford to stay there. A DVD I could rent for a toonie at the variety store was $15 to watch at the hotel. I'm sure there were dozens of good, white, hardworking Canadians nearby who wouldn't be welcome in that hotel. Get a grip on reality.

ETA: I'm not going to stay in this thread, because it really annoys me. I really don't understand the obsession with progressives and others with Cuba. It reminds me of conservatives and welfare mothers.

The message to Cuba is "you call yourself a socialist nation so you must -- in the face of a blockade, a decade with a near total lack of fossil fuels, while still managing to maintain lieracy and free health care and managing to evacuate and safeguard citizens during hurricanes -- maintain the perfect socialist state without any foibles."

The  message to welfare mothers is "you call yourself a mother so you must -- in the face of unemployment, a near total lack of daycare, while managing an apartment, utilities, and transportation and ensuring your child's safety and nutrition and constant care -- be the perfect mother while being out looking for a job every day.

In either case it is insane. So many people I've never met must be perfect to be able to envision such possibilities. 

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles. - Marx & Engels. (This is a Tag)

No, I'm not.

But you support capital punishment. That's indisputable. You're the one who's despicable. You act as if state-sanctioned murder solves problems instead of making them worse.

I'm through with you. And enough people have seen your views to know that you're scum.

The CIA failed to kill Castro but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying!

Until the 1990s Cuba was protected by the not insignificant problem for the US that it was a key ally of the Soviet Union. Invasion would have invited a Soviet response with possibly world-ending consequences. Afterwards, certainly the US has had no pressing interest in taking Cuba by force (besides, this would be ugly compared to Panama or Grenada)and there was some talk of normalizing relations but by that point American politicians an important domestic interest in continuing to ostracize Cuba.

Hmm... so you're a pacifist then?  

And you support CIA sponsored terrorism against Cuba.

You support the largest incarceration of human beings in Cuba at Guantanamo naval base for torture and basic human rights abuses.  

You support the largest jailer in the world, the USSA.

Just admit it now or forever hold your peace.

This is true. But it still hasnt prevented the CIA and terrorist groups from launching terrorist attacks on Cubans and Cuban infrastructure over the years. And the propaganda war and violation of Cuban airwaves is non-stop.

Quite mistakenly, there was a brief moment where I believed a simple answer was all that was required.  I will admit, I am prone to the occasional mistake as you well know, just as you are to sudden irrational outbursts, or perhaps not so sudden.  Which is part of the reason why I've avoided debate with you for a while.  The last time we conversed, I recall your direct accusations of being a war criminal or an accomplice to war crimes because I made the mistake, yet again, of acknowledging a military background, or more specifically, a tour of Afghanistan.  I suspect that is the reason why you referenced it in your reply concerning the topic of Cuba.  But then that is the price for conveying the occasional idiosyncratic recollection; people will make use of it for their own benefit.

Yes, about Cuba.  I've had the pleasure of knowing many of its citizens.  They were delightful.  In those days, and I suspect the same circumstances exist now; very few Cubans had the latitude of frequent travel to other countries.  I surmised that the people I met were fairly well placed within establishment, and not of the same standing as the people that Canadians usually interact with as workers in the hotels of resort destinations.  One of the Canadian smaller east coast airports was a refueling station for Aeroflot junkets between Cuba and the Warsaw pact nations.

By chance, I happened to be living in the neighborhood, and as fortune would have it, frequent repair stops would often result in a few stopover days before things were serviceable enough to continue on.  I must say, that among all of the passengers that disembarked, the Cubans were by far the most enjoyable people to party with.  The East Germans, well they were great too, don’t get me wrong, they loved their beer just as much as their West German counterparts, but the Cubans, they were amazing.  Now the Russians, they liked to drink too as you can well imagine, but with them, it was always a contest, shot glasses, arm wrestles, chess, fist fights, you name it, they were up for it depending on how much alcohol was consumed.  When all was said and done, there were always departing hugs to go around, because that was the way it was.

Now my reason for being there had nothing to do with nefarious official activities, it had more to do with my own weak self interests, involving exchanges for Cuban rum and cigars.  The things that we take for granted in our society are apparently worth something to others, and vice versa.  Regardless of political ideologies, people will always find ways to come together to do what humans have been doing since before recorded history, and that is to barter for the things they want.  I will admit to a residual level of after-market proprietary benefit, but one of the reasons we got along so well is because there were never any first hand cash transactions, only goods for goods.  Sometimes, over alcohol, politics surfaced during the many social occasions, and I found them to be open, pragmatic and exceptionally honest.  To this day, I avoid letting political considerations become an excuse for determining what is right.

As a socialist I believe that Cuba should abolish the death penalty...no "ifs", "ands" or "buts".  Some prinicpals I think are universal.  This is one of them.

Having said that, all indications are that Cuba is gradually moving away from the application of the death penalty. That is a positive development. 

There have been only three executions in the last three years and all current death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment on April 30th of this year.

I have been working my way through "Fidel Castro: My Life (with Ignacio Ramonet)"   It's a book put together via a series of relatively recent interviews with Fidel Castro.   

It's a fascinating book.   Fidel is a great story teller.   There are many instances where within the "inner circles" of the government he took certain positions, but was opposed by the majority.   

For example Fidel talks about how he was exposed to "liberation theology" in Chile in the early 1970's but it took quite awhile before he was able to persuade the Cuban Communist Party to permit religious believers to become members.

Cuban society is quite complex.   Debates are taking place all the time...it's just that they may not be "public".

Just because the Cuban government is carrying out a certain policy at a particular time does not mean that there is unanimaty about those policies.

I am sure that within the Cuban party/state there are definitely debates going on around abolishing the death penalty.

So, it's all about you. I had quite forgotten whatever personal biographical tidbit you had offered up. As for calling you a "war criminal", don't flatter yourself. You are irrelevant in the big scheme. My people suffered from war criminals. Whatever you did or didn't do in life, you don't rate.

It's interesting that you demand a "simple answer" to the death penalty in Cuba, and to your pained chagrin, you get the only answer you didn't reckon upon and you can't deal with: That it's up to the Cuban people.

Those who are suffused with a sense of innate superiority - coming from an oh-so-democratic-and-superior civilization, can debate the fate of others endlessly. What they can't fathom, or abide, is keeping their noses out of other people's affairs - whether it's Cuba or Afghanistan or Iran or Bosnia or anywhere. For theirs is a divine mission. A White Man's Burden. A Crusade. A War Against Terror. The name changes, but the ugly reality never does.

Well now they have tonnes and tonnes of the stuff!!!

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/18/cuban-oil

 It remains to be seen what they do with it however-and who they blame for constantly screwing up their country. 

If someone here would be so kind could they post the links reporting the US Gubmint sponsored terrorism acts against Cuba as mentioned?

 Because the anti-Castor Cubans I've met are a bunch of old fools who have  been in Miami so long they've forgotten how to speak Spanish.

 Their kids are successful in the USA and they don't give a shit about Cuba either. 

Yeah, read that old_. But at least the Cubans, if they complain at all, are succeeding. Unlike the broke Americans who bomb everyone they blame for fucking over thier own country and people. What's worse than being poor in Cuba? Being a veteran in the USA.

A quick Google gives me this list covering terrorist acts against Cuba between 1990 and 2000

http://www.ain.cu/patriotas2/escalaing/terroring1.htm

What truly repugnant is the fact that you youself can announce an opinion on any topic, regardless of the region it pertains to, which is what the board is all about, yet attempt to silence anyone else from having their own dissenting opinion on the topics at hand, in an aggressive fashion, while using a condesending and dismissive tone.  I wouldn't have used the same expression, but someone else called it lame.  But yes, I have the answer, even if you are not capable of openly announcing it.  You do, in certain political circumstances, support the use of the death penalty.

Baiting. How sweet. That typifies anti-Cuba propaganda on this board.

Is that all you have to offer? I can't say that I'm surprised, a little disappointed, but not surprised.  I thought there'd be something more substantive, such as 'no, I don't support the death penalty anywhere' but I think I understand where you are with it, and again, it doesn't come as a surprise.

Excellent book.   

You're right. See pp. 451-459. 

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles - Marx & Engels. (The preceding sentence is a tag line - and so are the words in these parentheses)

I think it'd be better if you would be so kind to go away, permanently.

Or other examples such as progressiveness, or a belief in human rights.  But you're right, it's obvious that having socialist views doesn't necessarily imply an objection to the death penalty in certain circumstances, or for that matter, engaging in coalitions with individuals who support the use of torture in other circumstances.

From the article referenced in the OP:

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles - Marx & Engels. (The preceding sentence is a tag line - and so are the words in these parentheses)

That question is rich with irony.

Your version of socialism may believe that the death penalty is okay.  My version of socialism does not.   There is not "one socialism" anymore than there is "one Christianity".

You are right.   I meant to say only three executions in the last eight years.  I'm probably tired...too many "3's" on my brain.

But still, in this country we have had individuals commit much more serious crimes than these individuals and they have not been executed.

I do not extrapolate that Cuba has no regard for human rights.  But I think that anyone who extrapolates that Cuba has no human rights problems that need to be dealt with is wearing rose coloured glasses.  I think Fidel would agree with this as well.

All the more reason not to feel the need to uncritically defend every single policy of the Cuban government.   When they are doing something that we think is fundamentally wrong we should say so...but within the spirit of solidarity with the Cuban Revolution.

I think you've both made some excellent comments, Radiorahim and M. Spector. I'm not going to get between you two or take sides as I think you're both well informed and understand that the forest is more important than individual trees, so to speak. I think Cuban socialism has endured many challenges and will survive many more. Cubans are very proud of the revolution as we are.

Closing for length.