Need feedback on if this is the Right Forum

Welcome to babble karma09.

The victim, or victims would have to come forward, and not a third-party, unless you are one of the victims yourself. If victims need support of women's organizations, workers can accompany women to the police to file a report, and also suggest other alternatives regarding seeking justice against this person, and looking into his access to children, etc through his businesses.

Since you said this is in Ontario, I recommend calling the Assaulted Women's Helpline. In Toronto: 416.863.0511 or in Ontario toll free 1-866.863.5011. Website here.

If video was taken of a sexual assault, this would be very valuable evidence, since much of the problem in prosecuting rapists is the lack of any physical evidence that "validates" the crime in the eyes of the justice system.

And, just to let you know, this: 

is a kinda problematic thing to say, and rather out of context. That makes my radar go up that you are not in fact sincere. But in case you are sincerely asking, I wanted to respond with helpful information. Violence against women isn't a joke, of course.

Oh, and I'm going to move this to the feminism forum.

Can someone come in here and accuse identifiable individuals of a very very serious crime? The third world comment also made my radar go off. 

No, someone cannot.  Karma09 for purposes of discussing this here, you do not need to be at all specific about this person's personal biography.  I have removed information which would pretty much indentify them within their community.

I am absolutely new to this. First of all, I apologize for the comment about Third World. I have been running from pillar to post with this issue without being able to figure out who to go to and why the police were taking it very lightly initially. Please go ahead and edit the line. The following is what he is doing:

He is assuming an identity (which I understand is not a crime) on dating websites with a pay as you go phone and posing as a bachelor looking for long term relationship and going out with more than one woman at the same time. Then he is suddenly vanishing from their radar. No one can trace him through his email address or phone which he is disconnecting. It has come to light recently that he has been in the meanwhile videotaping whenever he is intimate with the victim without the victims knowledge .Now that someone has traced him out, he has been trying his best to stop the victim from exposing him to his social circles, family, business circle by threatening to email out links of videos which he has without the knowledge of the victim taken, when they were intimate. He has been apparently doing this for several years and getting away with it. Thus not only is he faking a relationship, he is committing Voyeurism, posting the videos on unsuspecting websites then threatening the women to send out the videos if they try to expose him.

This particular victim is concerned that she will be sued for libel if she comes out and talks about it in public. She is not sure of what the legal implications are in exposing his identity publicly, even though she may have all necessary proof by writing. Her particular matter has now become a police investigation due to the video threats. Perhaps it should be kept confidential till the investigation is over? She is also fearful that she or her children may be harmed as this person is supposed to have a lot of contacts in his community, sponsors several sports tournaments and runs trust funds etc.

However, something has to be done as there are other victims who have not come out as they are perhaps being threatened by a similar manner. There also remains the matter of his access to children.

Would it constitute of libel/slander if the truth is exposed publicly (though every word is true)and should the parents of the children not be made aware of the situation so they have an option to decide for themselves.

Karma09,

First, thanks for your apology and acknowledgement of that comment.

Second, with the additional information that you've provided in post #5 I have a revised opinion about the situation.

1. Clearly the guy is a piece of scum, asshole, fuckwad piece of shit. Anyone with a brain can figure that out. 

2. It looks like the one illegal thing this asshole has done is record women he's had sex with. All the other behaviour, the fake identities, pretending to be single, dating multiple people at one time, aren't illegal.

3. If this is in fact the crime that he has committed, there is no way the police will ever take any complaint seriously. Not that this isn't a serious violation of women's privacy and despicable and illegal behaviour. It's simply not something that is deemed serious, mostly because it's a sexual crime against women. I would still advise anyone aware of this having happened to them after being with him to file a report, it creates a history for any future charges. But I have very little expectation that justice would be found, from the information you told me. And that sucks.

4. In terms of concerns about his access to children, he can't be charged for something he might do. No matter what his asshole past and present indicate.

I still advise calling the Helpline that I listed above, for emotional support and to get any further information about other avenues that I'm not aware of.

If his identity is known (by you and some others), and he carries out his threat, wouldn't he be jeopardizing his own position? If the videos are released or posted somewhere, wouldn't that constitute evidence against him, and couldn't the women he has victimized get together and press charges?

It also seems to me that a few of his victims could easily set up a sting operation where he could be videotaped in one of these trysts and then you have proof of his activities.

Maysie, I'll yield to your seeming certainty that filming someone without their permission is illegal - although I wonder what law is being broken in that situation?

Anyway, if this scumbag is threatening the victim to dissuade her from exposing him, maybe that's also grounds for police to get involved?

ETA: Here's what I had in mind:

Source.

I'm not going to give a legal opinion. Let the police do their investigation. However, I recall one case where a man pretended to be single, went through a form of marriage with a woman, turned out to be married already, and was guilty of sexual assault because he had deceived her into thinking she was having sex in a marital relationship.

when a man threatens you in an effort to make you do something- ie not expose him for what he has done- it is called extortion. whether the threat is real or perceived.

it is absolutely illegal and is considered violence against women. also we have a human right to protection from arbitrary attacks upon honor and reputation as well as to protection from interference with family- potential harm to her children

i have seen these sorts of things play out before and it can be very tricky to try to prevent harm- ie release of the video- to the victim.

i would suggest going to police to obtain a restraining order. he is threatening her. the restraining order should include a provision about him not attempting internet contact or specifically mention "no posting intimate video" so that if he does carry out his threat, he is subject to criminal charges and possibly jail. when the police serve the restraining order you could also request they seize the computer containing the video- it is like seizing a gun in this case- the video is a weapon being used to extort a woman into compliance.

i would also suggest her connecting with a support group fro women who are survivors of violence. the feelings that are a result of being attacked in this way can be over whelming and confusing. even if the outcome is perfect and the video is seized, she will still experience the symptoms of post traumatic stress and it can be a very dangerous time for a survivor.

i hope this helps. there is a thread about PTSD in the sex worker rights forum but it mostly in reference to sex workers. if you google on line you will find all kinds of info about common symptoms and ways to recognize and address them.

Thank you very much for all the comments.

• Jas: Of the other women, the victim has been able to connect with one and she has backed out (without a reason, but probably due to intimidation through video exposure from him) Thus getting a victims's group together will not happen as this Victim is fighting alone for her rights and justice.

• Unionist: The illegal activity that he has conducted by filming the victim is called "Voyeurism" which is a crime . This is the matter which finally made the police take the case to investigate the videos. They will be taking a couple weeks to investigate and come up with options. I was very much hoping on your lines that , if this scumbag is threatening the victim to dissuade her from exposing him, maybe that's also grounds for police to get involved. Unfortunately the police have not mentioned anything in this respect and this is the saddest part as he is carrying on his role model image and running business related to children as a respectable member of his community and there is no way of exposing his reality?

• Susan: I think your suggestion about the extortion part should come handy, I would definitely mention about the restraining order including seizing of the videos

The trick that he has played is that he has sent the email through an anonymous email address. He is a technical genious. Though the videos are the original videos and his email reads" they have been posted on unsuspecting websites" . He has already committed the crime. The police has to join the dots however to prove that he is the one who has taken the video as obviously he has kept himself hidden in the camera. It is only the woman who is exposed.

Also, if anyone could suggest if there are any websites where his reality can be exposed and if he files a case of defamation and the court finds out everything writen about him is true, will the defamation case still stand

When the victim was not sure what to do initially she had also contacted the media and they did want to do a story. However she had to be on camera. At that time she backed out as she feared for her life. May be the media would be the only way to expose him.

The matter may sound to be of a personal nature, but it relates to violence against women as there are many victims who are just not coming out and also that he has access to children and if the parents find out that they never knew they would freak...

Wilf Day, Is there a way to get further information on your comment/case. Though no marriage has taken place he has advertised his status as unmarried on the dating website and the victim has been thinking all along that she is with an unmarried man. Also the dating website is willing to give all the information if they are subpeoned by the court.

Should someone like this be exposed publicly? Would the media be interested in a story like this to find out how many more victims he may have? Or should the victims just fight out their own personal battles without him getting exposed? Does it not matter that someone like this is on the loose in our backyard? Or does it matter that though the police have the evidence in their hands it has been a while and they have not acted on it yet and the evidence could be destroyed as well.

It seems the issue is very small compared to what is going on in the World. However, it is big enough to ruin peoples lives...

To answer one of your questions, if the victim is telling the truth, no defamation exists. However, I believe the onus is on the defendant to show that the claims are not false.

If the man is harrassing or threatening the victim, she should ask for an 810 peace bond. She should keep notes on any emails, phone calls or in person confrontations and ask that they be added to the police file. Any communication she has with the police in requesting a peace bond should specify that she feels threatened, and that she fears for her own safety or the safety of her children. If he is calling her, she should phone her telephone provider. She can ask that a trap be put on her line, or she can set up and use call trace (dial *57 right after receiving the call). With Telus, 3 traces from one number and a file is automatically generated that can be forwarded to the police.

As far as using fake names on websites, it is not difficult to find an originating IP. If he is using a public computer, it would be harder to trace, but if he was purchasing time on the internet somewhere like at a library where he needs to use his library card, it could be traced.

Did you say that he has already posted this video somewhere on the internet?

Besides the criminal charge of voyeurism, videotaping someone without consent on their private property is a civil offense and it may be actionable. Did anything happen in her house?

Jabberwock : Thank You. This helps a lot. This person is a computer genius thus the police have to figure out how to link the anonymous email with him but the attached videos were taken by him.

The videotaping did happen in the victims house. Thus thanks for the note on a civil suite option

What is very concerning is that the videotapes and affidavid has been given to the police more than ten days now and they have not yet got back with an update. Given that the Toronto police are busy, should it normally take so long for them to come back with options when the victim has in between two /three times contacted them saying that she fears for her and her children's safety. Is it not ample time for the person to destroy any evidence he may have.

Yes the email also mentions that the videos have been posted on "unsuspecting websites"

Just wondering why the police are taking so long as the person who has been doing all this did mention that "the cops were in his pocket"....

I have been told by rabble -rousers that I am obsessed with this matter....

Do others think the same way? When nothing is happening and no one is taking action is there any other way to go than expose the person? Or do privacy rights protect them. How come the other website does not think so? specially when everything is true...

That just shows to go no one is interested to put themselves out there to fight issues like these...Is there anyone? any women's right activists who really want to fight injustice?

http://dontdatehimgirl.com/posts/259903/

Didn't a moderator just delete that exact same link a few minutes ago?  If so, why would you replace it?

I would like to know how else can this person be exposed?

Also if this website is all about serious opinions and activists then what are their opinions about the situation which is happening right here, right now !

By the way, if obsession will take someone to take some action on this then may be let it be called an obsession...

But something has to be done...and this is a much serious issue than what Tiger Woods has done..cause the women who he slept with knew his reality/identity and he was not hopefully trying to threaten them into silence or working with close access to children.

If Tiger woods can get so much time and comments on this website so can this..

the comments on the link are all true...there can be no lawsuit to lose on this one...

By the way I am a follower of "A course In Miracles" and " The Dissapearance of the Universe"...the only thing I obsess about is what they teach.....

But I believe in logic and principles and moral values..........

Though I have only provided a link and taken personal responsibility of the truthfulness of the content...if the moderators feel that babble may be at legal risk, and nothing progressive will be the out come of this please go ahead and take the link off...

Let me add it was in no way to offend/disrespect any moderators!

You can actually lose a libel/slander lawsuit even if the accusations are true. The true is NOT a complete defense, the motivation of the person making the claims also has bearing and has in fact made people lose such lawsuits even though the statements were true. If the statements are made just to cause ruination of someone then yes you would lose the libel lawsuit

But if the statements are made to make the public aware since it has not happened with only one victim but he is a repeat offender and to make sure that the profile is out there to try and warn as many women possible and there is proof of the same...in his written acknowlegement?

It does seem like a coincidence that one of the number one topic in Rabble today is Uzma Shakir's Blog on "Violence against Women in Canada"

http://www.rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/uzma-shakir/2009/12/naming-violence-...

I am hoping she will review my thread to advice if there is any action that can be taken from an activitist point of view against the atrocities mentioned above, apart from the police investigation which will take it's own time...

You could also in fact make sure that he never gets charged by jumping the gun on a investigation by police. But yes even with the statements as you say them, you could lose a libel suit. If the other victims do not step forward, you lose. If the other victims did not want to step forward or have theiur names publicized, you would lose.  Very little is straightforward in a court case

I understand about jumping the gun....Let the cops do their job...I guess thats the best way to go...impatience will bring nothing..

It takes time for an investigation.  I have read reports on arrests on different topics being made only after 4 months of surveillance and investigation, so keep in mind this is one of many reports and crimes they are dealing with.

It may fall into a category of harrassment, online harrassment, stalking and bullying are now being taken a lot more seriously that before.   The victim can try to find the sites hosting the videos and threaten legal action to have them removed.   The site owners are usually willing to do this, but alot requires the victim to be pro-active on this stuff.   Here is a link to some info on harrassment which might lead to more ideas for what to do:

www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/pub/har/index.html

Harrassment via the internet is still harrassment and still a crime.   Threats via the internet, same thing.  If this individual purchased anything via that dating website (this is normally done for men to purchase credits in order to communicate with women on the site) clearly he used a real name and a credit card to do that.  The site can be served a warrant for the information, meaning he can be located under his real name.  However, again, all of that takes a great deal of time, and privacy laws have to be worked around. 

As far as a media story goes, there is no way any news show would not protect her identity.  Clearly she was dealing with the wrong people and if she wanted to pursue that, she should go to someone else.   I have rarely if ever seen any similar story where the victim's identity was not concealed and presented anonymously.  

The most important thing is to get the videos shut down, and take back the power.  This is best achieved by not waiting around for someone to help but to be assertive and take action, whatever that is, in order to feel like something is being done.   Start a victim's blog about this sort of thing, ask to be contacted by other victims, a lot can be done without specifically identifying the perpetrator.   Save all emails, texts, and voice messages and print them out for police.   Find out who is the case worker and forward all info to that person in the police dept.  Find out if they have a victims advocate to connect with, who can aid in the procedures and work on her behalf

The main thing has been done; it has been reported.   Nothing may come of it, but if that happens, then remind her that the process is for her benefit.   To be doing something is better than to suffer in silence.  The point is that the guy goes on record for doing this.  When or if another victim appears, there is a history.  As more appear, lawyers will be lined up to take a class action suit suing this guy for damages to personal privacy and harrassment. 

Also, remind her that she did nothing wrong, she is not a criminal, and if something appears on the internet it is not the end of the world.  Speaking out about it is proactive as well, meaning that only he could have recorded it, only he could have posted it (he is not in the shots, or obscured in the shots, making it impossible to prove that he is a victim of these being posted online, only she could possibly be the victim in this case).

Thank you Fortunate. The victim has done mostly all suggested. The case is being looked into by a senior detective and I guess it will require sometime.

It is cumbersome to find out where the videos maybe posted.They have not been posted under her name that is for sure as a search does not bring up anything and the perpetrator had already been warned through email that lawsuites would follow if anything was posted and this was by advice from the police. However, he may also have destroyed them as they would be evidence against him in case they are found in his possession.

Not sure where a victims blog could be started though?

The following is from a veterran Rabble rouser regarding my post:

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Discussion boards like babble (and I suspect particularly "progressive" discussion boards) often get asked, by new members such as yourself, to take up some cause that is not really appropriate, or is suspect in nature, or is simply not something that online message board users have much control or influence over.

Your repeated posts combine all three.

First off, babble doesn't exist to punish some man who you claim has done illegal things. We have the police for that. If you can't convince them, convincing us would do nothing.

Second, let's be honest: all you've given us so far is your assertion that this man has done illegal things. Lacking any solid evidence, there's nothing to differentiate you from someone who just wants to harrass this man. Who's to say you're not simply punishing him for some imagined misdeed? And lacking any kind of proof, your attempts to identify him and to make libellous claims against him put babble at legal risk.

Finally, it's not at all clear what babblers should do. Quit their jobs and go hunt him down? Start a letter-writing campaign to the police, demanding that they arrest someone we've never met, on the say-so of someone else we've never met?

And honestly, the whiny attempts to guilt everyone into doing as you wish, with the clear insinuation being that if we don't, then we must not believe in truth, justice and kittens, is offensive. That sort of thing just stinks of an attempt to control, and really isn't going to promote a whole lot of trust on the part of babblers.

But why "obsession"? Well, for one, I don't know that in your week here, you've posted about anything else, and when moderators make it abundantly clear that personal information, or a link to some public shaming site isn't welcome at babble, you just ignore them and post it again. That suggests to me that you might be just a wee bit unable to think of or do much else. If I'm wrong, feel free to show me by NOT reposting what you've been asked to not post.

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My answer to that is : My forum Topic, which reads "Is this the Right Forum"

If he had responded with the input before, I would not have pursued the matter. However I did get valuable information from some of the rabble rousers and want to say Thank you for that

Happy Holidays to all and my apologies if I sounded repetitive or offended anyone!

So how do we find out if this did become a success story or not? Is there anyway?

I was wondering what the babbler's opinion would be if a case of sexual battery was brought by the victim since the guy vitiated the consent of the victim by giving her a made up identity. Would be a novel case!

Was this ruled in Ontario? Please advice. A Sexual Battery claim is being laid in this case against the perp as he misrepresnted himself as adifferent person as well as unmarried to which the victim consented to have a relationship. However, it seems to be a Novel case in Ontario. Please can you give some details of the sexual assault case you mention or at least in which state. Would help immensely in this matter.

I'm not a lawyer, but you could always google "fraud vitiates consent".   It's a pretty well documented component of law, and if I recall correctly, the only fraud which is typically actionable in this regard is failure to disclose a disease or other potential source of physical harm to a prospective partner.  Everything else falls under the category of "being a jerk".

In other words, if telling someone that you're a rich, famous Hollywood producer in order to get laid is not illegal.  Pretending to be single when you're in a relationship is not illegal.  Claiming to be HIV- if you're HIV+ (thus exposing a partner to potential physical harm) is illegal.

It seems to me that the victim(s) involved ought to speak to the police first and see what happens. This certainly won't be the only time they've dealt with something like this.

Well, this is what happened: The video tapes of intimate nature and the anonymous email was recieved by Victim (as she was going to expose his reality) in first week of December. The victim immediately contacted the police. The York regional police took it upon themselves to take an affidavit of thevictim on camera and package the whole case and hand it over to the Toronto police since the video taping happened at a toronto address. The Toronto police kept going back and forth back and forth, contradicting their statement etc from December to April. Sometimes they gave excuse of not being able to schedule a meeting with the perp due to clash in their schedules, sometimes they said it was the holidays, sometimes they said they are not sure if the Crown will file a charge of Voyeurism as their was not evidence and then they said the Crowns response is not clear .Then they finally said the persons lawyer has informed them that he will not talk to the police. Basically they kept stretching the issue till the person got time to get a lawyer and say that he will not talk to police. After two weeks of this, the Toronto police said the Crown has decided not to pursue the matter since they cannot convict based on the evidence present. When asked by the victim her case file #, the toronto police responded that they have not been able to enter the occurences in the system, when they finish entering it, they will let her know and she can get the information from the "freedom of informastion" office.She still does not have her case file #.

In the meanwhile this person filed a defamation claim against the victim as she had mentioned about him on a few websites to caution other women. The victim consulted with her lawyer and they decided to go ahead and justify the defamation and file a counter claim of sexual battery. The victim's lawyer also mentioned since it was a novel case. he would like to get the "Star" involved. When the other side heard it, they immediately wanted to take their defamation claim back. Now why would they want to take their defamation claim back if they really feel defamed?

Anyway, Snert thanks for the google phrase. Wilf Day made a comment about another case, but it seems he has not been logging in. Still need opinions if anyone cares to share.

The disgust I feel about the way the matter was handled by the Toronto police is beyond words!

I actually already found an excellent link when I googled "fraud vitiates Consent" and it actually supports the statement.

http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.lib.ryerson.ca/stable/2022824?seq=1&Search=...

Snert...you are the best..here is another one:

http://www.studentatlaw.com/articles/124/1/Sexual-Assault/Page1.html

The High Court recognised that the defendant's fraudulent conduct, although not rape, could be punished under as another less serious criminal offence, namely, procuring sexual intercourse by fraud or false pretences. This offence exists in (s 66, Crimes Act 1900). (also under s61R (2) –mistaken as to marriage)

http://law.anu.edu.au/criminet/trape.html#E11E3

The definition of consent in the ACT is contained in s 92P of the Crimes Act 1900 (ACT).

s92P. (1) For the purposes of section 92D, paragraph 92E (3) (b), section 92J and paragraph 92K (3) (b) and without limiting the grounds upon which it may be established that consent is negated, the consent of a person to sexual intercourse with another person, or to the committing of an act of indecency by or with another person, is negated if that consent is caused:

(a) by the infliction of violence or force on the person, or on a third person who is present or nearby;

(b) by a threat to inflict violence or force on the person, or on a third person who is present or nearby;

(c) by a threat to inflict violence or force on, or to use extortion against, the person or another person;

(d) by a threat to publicly humiliate or disgrace, or to physically or mentally harass, the person or another person;

(e) by the effect of intoxicating liquor, a drug or an anaesthetic;

(f) by a mistaken belief as to the identity of that other person;

(g) by a fraudulent misrepresentation of any fact made by the other person, or by a third person to the knowledge of the other person;

(h) by the abuse by the other person of his position of authority over, or professional or other trust in relation to, the person;

(i) by the person's physical helplessness or mental incapacity to understand the nature of the act in relation to which the consent is given; or

(j) by the unlawful detention of the person.

Where are the Women's right activists in this forum? Don't they want to see justice done in a situation which occurs all the time or has everyone given up?

Well, no harm in giving this issue a delicate push....

Mahmud where are you?

So I'm wondering why, safar, if you already had a babble account, you chose to come back under a succession of aliases--namely, karma09, cosmic10 and our latest manifestation, robindro. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish here, nor, really, what the topic of discussion is here. If you'd like to enlighten me, please email me at catchfire [at] rabble.ca. Until then, I'm locking your account, because sock-puppets are not alllowed on babble, particularly banned ones.

I'm also closing this thread.