iPods made by iKids

Whoa. That's huge.

One thing I find interesting from the report is that it comes from Apple's own annual report on its sourcing. It sounds like they're trying to enforce certain labour standards on their suppliers, and that they're reporting every year on how they're doing. The source for these allegations are Apple's own reports, and it looks to me, from the way this article is reported, that Apple is attempting to regulate themselves and be open about the results.

I don't know if this is true or not, but that's the impression I get from this article.

It would also be interesting to see whether any of its competitors is any better. Where are PCs made? Any child labour involved? I'm betting they're made in the same factories, and I'm betting that the companies that make them aren't being transparent about the labour conditions, either.

I remember Rabble giving ipods away as gifts.

Blackberries, not picked by children!

Do we know that, though? It's not like they're assembled in Waterloo.

It's good that Apple is reporting and acting on this, however, it would be nice if they examined this before they chose subcontractors as well as after.

E.Tamaran wrote:
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I remember Rabble giving ipods away as gifts.
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I don't think there are any electronics anywhere that aren't tainted by bad labour practices, or if there are, I'm not aware of them. Although the digital restrictions management is an issue that I'd also raise regarding Apple products.

E.Tamaran, just curious - what kind of computer are you using to read babble and do other online stuff? I'm assuming it's one that you were very careful to ensure was made by unionized North Americans, right?

Michelle, you've fallen into the "oh well everybody does it" trap. Just because "every" piece of electronics has child labor in it doesn't mean it's ok for a progressive organization like Rabble to give it away as a prize. Did you consider perhaps, instead of a blood Ipod giving away a piece of FN art. That would have helped to support a native artist and it would have no child labor inputs.

Good point. I'll bring it up the next time we discuss a fundraising drive.

Is it okay for a progressive person to use electronics that have child labour in them, though? Especially one who makes a point of being critical of others for using them?

Michelle, assuming that you're refering to me with your statement above, I don't use any products that I know have child labor in them. You should take back your vicious claim that I do!

It"s not a vicious claim is a debating tactic. And applying your logic, Rabble at the time they gave away the iPods was not aware of the issues associated with them. Do you think they should express retroactive guilt?

I didn't accuse you of anything. I asked you what kind of computer you're using and whether you researched before buying it whether there was any sort of child labour involved in the production of it. You didn't answer, although you were quite quick to be critical of others, and to say that just because everyone's doing it, that's no excuse for rabble to do it.

So, since you're clearly using a computer to type this, I'm just wondering whether the same applies to you, unless, of course, you've found a computer manufacturer that uses no overseas sweatshop labour. If you have, I'd love to hear about it, because I sincerely do feel bad about using electronics made by sweatshop labour - but I also don't know of any other choice, beyond not using any electronics at all.

I'd be happy to hear about alternatives you might have found, however.

I'm not a computer whiz, but it says Cicero, Intel PIII, running windows Xp. Made in Burnaby BC.

I can assure you, with a PIII, most components are from China with the memory probably from Taiwan. It was assembled in BC.

And probably the same with my Dell. And my ACER before that. Sigh.

None of us is pure, and I'm sincere when I say that it sucks that we can't be. I wonder if there would be a market for computers made in Canada under proper labour standards? Would they be THAT much more expensive? How much of a mark-up do companies like Apple add to their computers that they get some kid to manufacture and put together for 50 cents an hour or whatever?

There is no way, due to economies of scale, that a Canadian computer would be competitive.

It would be very, very, very expensive. Canada doesn't exactly have the infrastructure to start building all the parts that are necessary for any one component of a computer to be mass produced in the quantities that would make it a viable business. It is really expensive to build a facility to produce a lot of those parts. Plus, you'd have to source your stuff throughout the world to make sure that good labour practises were followed in the raw production and shipment of materials. And with a mark up like that, a company would be hardpressed to find investors...or customers. I need my own computer, but there is no way in hell that I could ever afford one

With the way the world works, you have to understand what goes into every single tiny, itsy bitsy component of your computer or blissfully wish away what goes into allowing our pampered asses to write out each of these posts. Every time your fingers push down a key, you're pressing a blood key, sending an electric signal through a blood connecting cord to a blood CPU, GPU, RAM, hard drive, and having that be worked over by tons of blood capacitors and resistors, etc. There is no sense pulling a 'holier than thou' stance and being critical of others unless you've never, ever owned or operated a computer.

Or pretty much anything else.

I'm sure some of the electricity being used to make rabble.ca available is generated with non-renewable power, too.

I guess we'll have to shut rabble.ca down.

BTW E. Tamaran if you want to be on the side of the angels, you shouldn't be running Windows XP or any Microsoft or Apple operating system.   You should be using a GNU/Linux operating system...one that is "free as in freedom".   That's something that you DO have control of.

radiorahim: preacher of the open source

Let's all just kill ourselves so we can be absolutely certain we aren't aiding and abetting evil any further.

There are more than 1.3 billion people in China, and you say there are 25 children working "somewhere" there in iPod factories? Does the government in Beijing know about this? Have Apple execs notified anyone in China?

Sure. You go first.

Thread drift...slightly...preacher of free software

Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software

yeah sorry, open source just sounded more evangelical.

That's somewhat unavoidable, isn't it? Like it was said, a computer manufactured to Canadian standards is not competitive. That doesn't mean progressive consumers can do nothing though. I think its the role of the progressive consumer to try to aim for purchasing the product manufactured to the "least worst" standard. Its the role of the progressive NGO (and arguably, government) to inform the consumer which product is manufactured to the "least worst" standard. Then pressure is felt by corporations to clean up a little. Consumer boycotts don't always work, but they don't exactly always fail either.

Is it ethical to purchase an Ipod? Well, see if there's an alternative.

How  many more years will it be before countries like China start shipping their obsolete widgets, computer components and toxic waste to the west for recycling and "processing"?

When money arrives, all is green, bustle and abundance. And when it leaves, all is trampled down, barren and bare - old Chinese proverb

Where the military is, prices are high - even older Chinese proverb

It's pretty difficult to be ethical with regard to electronic hardware...it's pretty much all made in sweatshops.

It is possible to be ethical about the software.   Apple tries its best to make sure that iPods only talk to its proprietary "iTunes" software which is only available for non-free operating systems like MacOSX and Microsoft Windows.

A number of audio players make use of Microsoft's "MTP" protocol to transfer files  between your computer and your audio device.  I've run into this with some players made by Creative.   This means you can only "talk" to these devices with a Microsoft Windows operating system.

Other players make use of MTP, but allow you to turn it off so that your computer sees it as a "mass storage device".

I would avoid any portable players that force you to make use of either iTunes or the MTP protocol.

I would also try to purchase media players that allow you to play media in non-patented free media formats like ogg vorbis and FLAC.

I have one Samsung player that plays ogg vorbis files and a player made by Cowon that plays both ogg vorbis and FLAC files.   FLAC by the way is the "free lossless audio codec"...you get full CD quality audio in a compressed file format...mind you the files are rather large!

A prior thread on the topic...

During the the times that I barely had enough money to eat I still boycotted places such as Walmart that are well documented as IMPLIMENTORS of child slavery.  But there are some things that cannot be avoided - in the case of anyone reading this - using a computer. 
Child slavery is obviously one of the many human conditions that needs to be remedied. 
It is good to encourage and use diplomacy which is the only tool we have as people living in a society that will NOT put you before a firing-squad for speaking out against atrocities.

Condemning someone because they wipe their ass with a product made from the forest is counterproductive especially if you are doing the same thing.  Euch Tweugh...

We have  child labour happening right here in our own hemisphere. Imagine that.

Wacha talkin bout Willis?!

In Latin America, the proportion is estimated between 10% and 25%[of children]

Mostly indigenous children. Grinding poverty forces them to labour to help their families survive. Very little socialism in Uncle Sam's backyard.

One day we will all wake up

"The children are forced to work 12 to 14 hours a day, with some shifts going 20-hours.
In all of September, these child laborers got just one day off.
For the grueling long shifts, they are allowed only about four hours of sleep on the factory floor before being awakened and put back on the machines, sometimes collapsing from exhaustion.
Their wages are as low as six cents an hour.
They are routinely slapped or beaten if they don't meet their production goals, make mistakes, or even take too long in the bathroom. "



Should They Laugh?

I find it hard to laugh,
After witnessing the suffering,
And I cannot ignore it,
And I cannot forget.

If you see me smile, it's only on the surface.
The sight of starving, dying, and enslaved children,
Cuts me inside -
And leaves a scar on my face I cannot hide.

I'm not going to try to make you laugh -
That's what clowns are for.
I'm not going to try to make you cry -
That's what conscience is for.

So go ahead - look away,
But if the tables ever turn one day,
Should they look away in your time of need?
Should they ignore your oppressors greed?

Should they be silent -
And never speak of your plight,
To the only ones who could help you?

Should they pay your slavemaster -
To crack the whip into the night?
And should they laugh too?
As Walmart CEOs do?