Disappointed with Babble

Somewhat similar to the job we did on sex workers. Im ashamed Stargazer. Although not really a part of either, how can I (or anyone at babble) help?

That did not happen.  That person came here spoiling for a fight, claiming to be oppressed by the words of another babbler who has been forthright about her struggles with psychosis, and when people didn't agree with everything she said, she had a hissy.

As far as the "cis" gender thing goes, a casual google search will reveal that this is by no means settled terminology, but is hotly debated on the LGBT boards.  To claim that one's identity is threatened by someone questioning what is a widely-disputed term is disingenuous at best, and pointlessly melodramatic at worst.

That is not what happened. The fact that you chose to ignore all of the bad behaviour and baiting is telling. Yeah, you were all feeling so oppressed that you just couldn't resist making sure we are not inclusive here. Thanks. Well done. I see nothing was learned at all. Bravo!

Fear.

Bacchus, how can someone help? When we see these types of things speak up. Just like we would in real life. Listen. Ensure that people are heard here. It would have also helped if there was some type of assistance from the mods regarding this behaviour. We have incredibly amazing lefty mods. I want the mods to make a safe place for trans people to talk. That means calling people out on their bullying right off. If they cannot respect that then they should start a new thread or leave the forum.

Sineed, you have said it all, who could add to your wisdom, compassion and grace.  LOL  (Sorry Maysie, censure me if you must, I'll consider it worth it.)  Seriously though Sineed I thank you for so completely exhibiting mono-mind, have you ever thought you might be wrong.

I thought Cross came because she genuinely wanted to reach out and I was deeply touched by her words.  How did I miss all that negativity you have attached to her?  How did I just hear the story of someone who had been deeply wounded over and over again by a society fearful and intolerant of difference?  How did you hear someone spoiling for a fight?  What fucking world do you live in?

Edited for grammar.

Damn, makes me want to check my calendar and see if it is still 1981 and we are still arguing with the Board of Governors at McGill as to whether or not sexual orientation should be included as a prohibited grounds of discrimination. I'm surprised that someone hasn't pulled out a dictionary to "settle the matter" - really, I am surprised... because the level of "debate" is truly at the high school level at best.

[ETA: and, since we are so concerned with taxonomy, this thread belongs in rabble reactions]

Right here:

From her opening post:

So in her 1st two posts, she dissed five babblers, one by name, and one whose remarks needed to be taken in the context of the fact that she was suffering from psychosis.

All this "derailing," that "went way beyond disrespectful," because some of us had the unmitigated gall to disagree with some of what she said.

Nice try but doesn't apply for reasons I already explained.  

You lose Sineed. Give it up. You're only making yourself look bad (and did I mention petty?)

'kay, am going to make 2 comments.

1. When the polarity of cis and trans are utilized in science it is to indicate a normal molecule and a trans molecule, the trans molecule is considered to be harmul, or useless, in many scientific scenarios, as it is usually a double bond molecule. For example "transfat" indicates molecules bound together and which are known to be negatively impacting normal body systems.  There is a high degree of discomfort for me to apply the term cis or normal to myself, as I am thereby inadvertantly labelling those who considered themselves trans, as abnormal and harmful, and myself as "normal" and not harmful, which really does not apply.

If persons want to self label as trans and cis, and thereby ignore the scientific interpretation of the 2 positionings from which it is  borrowed, I do not have a issue with it. However, I cannot personally utilize said positioning, as it sets up a negative viewing and postioning of "trans" . For me, when trans is used alone, it means a person transitioning to the gender description/reality that is of their personal choice and comfort.

2. The all caps thread was not in this forum it was in the news by us forum.

and one whose remarks needed to be taken in the context of the fact that she was suffering from psychosis.

You know, Sineed, I saw that argument, and almost waded in but felt the same as you, but now I'm not so sure.  Like a good many of us, no doubt, I am concerned and protective of that person.   Who is, we should remember, a person given to brilliance and to being wrong from time to time, just like anyone else.    I so like that person.  But I don't think I did honesty any favours, or that person, by letting some stuff pass, at the expense of another person. 

And, I agree with you that the other person did what you pointed out.  But, it takes time to soak in the style here, and new comers have a difficult enough time amoungst us who have had, litterally, years to learn what's acceptable, what's controvertial, and just who's buttons are where and how to avoid them-- or push them.

Maybe it's that person whose remarks needed to be taken in that context?    

Bacchus, how can someone help? When we see these types of things speak up. Just like we would in real life. Listen. Ensure that people are heard here. It would have also helped if there was some type of assistance from the mods regarding this behaviour. We have incredibly amazing lefty mods. I want the mods to make a safe place for trans people to talk. That means calling people out on their bullying right off. If they cannot respect that then they should start a new thread or leave the forum.

I read a lot of forums, Stargazer, like the LGBTI, Feminist, Aboriginal issues, and anti racism, but don't often comment unless I feel there's something really important to say-- all part of trying to make those places safe places that don't need commentary from, well, straight white guys.    Callling someone on something in one of those forums can be problematic.  I'm not using that as an excuse, or mentioning that issue in a passive aggressive criticism of it, just that it demands a dellacy of touch that many of us don't have, all the time.

Always the voice of reason, Tommy.  How do you always manage to suss these things out??

The person who is unwell has sought my advice both publicly on this board, and privately.  I do feel protective of her, and when I see her attacked by a couple of newcomers who state that they are cognizant of her difficulties, but attack her anyway, one of whom signed up expressly at least partly for that purpose, I don't take it well.

When it comes to my people, I guess I'm like a mama bear.

And jebus!  I do hate being labelled "cis gender."  Maybe when we're all calmed down we can have a sane discussion about labelling, if Maysie thinks it's cool (I would defer to Maysie 'cause she has the most sensitive radar when it comes to these things).

Peace out.

Holy Fuck.

Wow I like what remind said (Im sure that shocks her lol) and yeah what Tommy said. I read them but I really dont want to wade in unless I have something really important to say or a link to share. Been burned by that a few too many times, especially in the AR forum

Hey peeps.

I'm gonna talk personally here, and from the heart.

Privilege helps us in the world, and we all have it. It's really really hard to know it, and to see it, when we wear it everyday, it is literally our skin.

So, if you are one, two or three of white, middle class and male (that's cis gendered male) you will move in the world in certain ways, like, for example, expecting to be taken seriously or treated with respect by most people. You will expect to be treated fairly and to be listened to. I'm middle class and I live in the world (mostly) as a white person. I'm talking about myself here.

So, that said, I THINK I know a hell of a lot. And the truth is, I know sweet-fuck-all about the lived experiences of folks without class privilege, without cis-gender privilege, without education privilege and without the privilege of being physically able. I consider it my work to Shut The Fuck Up when folks from those groups share their experiences, on a personal level, write theory and analysis at an academic level, and make connections to other forms of oppression at the systemic/institutional level.

I have nothing, NOTHING to add to a conversation about the struggles of a trans-person. Except my own dumb-ass thoughts. Or words of support and encouragement. And like Tommy, who said it better than I'm saying it, I am deliberately silent when I know my dumb-ass thoughts add nothing to the dialogue. Or I try to be. There are a gajillion books out there, and I've posted the link to My Gender Workbook by Kate Bornstein before. This book rocked my world and blew my mind, and you know what? I still don't get most of it.

It's humbling and ego-deflecting to say, "You know what? I'm not the expert here." It's also hard as hell to do, say and live that. And I say those words again on a personal level.

There is SO little space for many marginalized voices in the world, in print, online. babble has a long way to go, but what keeps me going here is knowing that there is a small progression, even if on days like this it feel sad and depressing.

I would really like it if we were to stop beating up on each other and try to reflect, "Well, Poster ABC doesn't get Issue A, but I really don't get Issue B. How would I want to be told, on a discussion board, that I'm being oppressive or offensive?" And I say this as someone who fails this wish all the time on babble.

No, that's not what it means at all. It simply describes whether functional groups are on the same side of a molecule or not. It does cause molecules with the same atomic makeup to have different properties. Trans fats were called trans because of their structure long before it was discovered that it was a bad idea to eat them.

Cis-Trans isomerism

I heart Maysie.  I love it when someone says something I feel, but can't put into words. 

Thanks Polly B. 

Moving to rabble reactions at the request of Stargazer, and because that's where this thread belongs.

Thank you, Maysie. And Startgazer.

Perhaps people should let the chemistry lessons go? Perhaps people should consider why trans people, POC, and indigenous people in being forced from this board.

If a person is trans and they want to call people who have the privilege of not experiencing a trans-phobic world as a trans person "cisgendered" just fucking listen. It's a lable that designates your privilege and lack of lived experience. It doesn't matter what your chemistry book says, it certainly doesn't matter what the OED says (has that become are go-to source for non-oppressive langauge?) and it doesn't matter what "debate" is going on on trans message boards. IT'S ALL ABOUT PRIVILEGE, STUPID!

We've heard this before: don't call me white, i'm Lower German! Don't call me straight, I'm into pegging! Don't call me a settler, my family's been hear for 3 generations! Don't call me rich, do you know what my car payments are?!?!?!

Bloody hell Le T! You're finally here. Last night I was thinking "where is Le T" and here you are. Thank you.

one of whom signed up expressly at least partly for that purpose, I don't take it well.

Nor should you, and nor did I.    I actually winced when I saw that.   

But, if I would have interjected with what I felt, viscerally at the time, it wouldn't have resolved anything or made anything better, on the contrary, it could well have made things worse. 

-------

On the issue at hand, to me it's a matter of liberty.   I think people should be able to live life and pursue happiness they way they see fit, and I don't see any reason why these gender issues should be excluded from that, or why, if we want the same for ourselves, we would find it difficult to create not just a safe space here, but a safe space in society for our fellow travellers.

Thank you Maysie, that was a terrific post.  You are one of the reasons why I keep coming back to rabble...

Precisely.

CP could have very well been an active participant in that first thread that started it all (and she was - as a reader ). In retrospect, I think there is an underestimation of the impact of our words as RTTG debated very calmly when some really hurtful and undermining things were said. There was fallout from that thread and CP's introduction and comments were a manifestation of that. So, I think insinuating that the OP poster joined for the reason of making an attack on a particular person is really inaccurate and unfair, even if one of the goals of the OP was to address the other person's comments.

CP was probably not aware of the other poster's situation, and I don't think you can fault her for that. I don't think it is fair to single out the other poster as there were multiple parties involved in that pile up (myself included). So, really, something like this could have been restated by those willing to protect the other poster instead of adopting an oppositional attitude.

LeT you nailed it, thank you.

Not really.  The "just fucking listen" approach may work with those few people who are at least inclined to listen in the first place.  But, try that approach with most people and you'll get a big ol' FAIL.

You can't make (or successfully demand that) people listen to you.

Not so long ago in Canadian society persons whose bodies, or minds, that did not conform to that of the mainstream were shunned and ignored, at best.

Hell in some social sets they still are.

There was no going out of the house and into the public world, and for sure not independantly, as the public world did not feel they had to accommodate such a small % of the population.

Nowadays it is different, it is not 100% there, but it is well beyond what it was in the 60'/70's and perhaps the early 80's.

Young people these days do not remember a time when there were no wheel chair ramps or disabled parking spaces. Say nothing of designated public facility stalls and whole bathrooms. There was no Braille on elevator buttons, or low elevator buttons for that matter, nor voice/sound cues at street lights, or dips in sidewalks to easily cross streets. And there was definitely no large sporting events accommodating those who were not as able in some areas in which others were.

So called "Able"  people held onto what they perceived as superiority of person and being, and all others were less than. Society was oppressive, for all but the few.

 Still today I struggle with the wording of descriptors of differences between people, as i think do most, or at least amongst those who are cognatively aware of the pain that "othering" labels have.

For example, we as a society, have gone from "gimp", to "crippled", and from crippled to "physically challenged", and from the use of challenged to the use of "disabled". However for me, none of those descriptors are as of yet correct, as they still label  from a position of perceived superiority/inferiority of one over another.

It would be hoped that in 20-30 years, and hopefully much less, that the majority of the people in the world will be viewed amongst ALL for the perfect individuals that they are, just as they are.

Yes, that is a simplistic sentence given the greed and desire for power/status that many have. However, those things were present back  in the day too, and that did not stop the majority people from recognizing the equality and human rights for those today we call disabled, and commence to accommodate the needs of our brethern.

Not everyone in society is forced to walk up a ramp, to make things equal, they can take the stairs if they want, without censor.

The day when we look at the other and see self is the day we come face-to-face with peace.

Perhaps, after months and months of indulgence in hope that they are capable of learning, it becomes time to limit the interruptions and disruptions of even the most polite of our thickies.

Perhaps - but when their 'contributions' here are worthless or worse, we really shouldn't have to listen to them, either.

I have nothing to add regarding the transgendered person no longer with us, except to say it is too bad that there was not more tolerance shown by someone who has received much support and patience here herself.

LTJ, that was uncalled for, especially given your former anomousity to said person.

LTJ, what do you mean by that last paragraph??

Interesting, I read "just fucking listen" more as a plea for openness.

"Face to face with peace" is a good image, FM, and it's used to explain how we decide how to act, play our roles. The "looking glass self" is supposed to determine how we grow a "self."  But it helps to grow in a protective environment.  I thought we had created that for a vulnerable person. For anyone who has tried to provide that protection to someone no longer able to see clearly in a mirror that becomes distorted, it is one helluva tough job in the land of ego.

I don't recall any animosity at all.

From my POV, I think I've tried to be understanding - and I certainly have made an effort to be far more civil than I am with more trollish disruptors hereabouts.

Your professed perceptions aside, you know as well I as I do that I called you a couple of times on it, as well as caissa.

You may believe you were more civil, however, just like in the case of sexist remarks  some men make here, they think there is nothing wrong with them too, when indeed there is.

Aside from that, there is no need to jump on her, well after the fact and her account is locked, at all.

Actually, I don't recall being 'called' on anything, either.

And I was unaware G.Muffin's account has been locked. I'm sorry to hear it.

LTJ, I knew you would not be a part of that pile up on CP. Thank you for clarifying that last paragraph. I was pissed (still am) but I should have maintained my faith in you.

This isn't even from this thread. It's from a different thread altogether, directed at me, I think.

But why did it get dragged to this thread?

I don't know why do you not ask yourself this? As I could not find those words in this thread other than put here by yourself....

Post #27.

LTJ quoted me at post #27, which I did say in another thread, and I can't remember right now which thread it was. Isn't this a great example of not quoting oneself or others from different threads and out of context? Please don't do that any more, LTJ.

And no it was not directed at you Snert, fyi. But you may want to examine why you thought it was.

The full quote is:

... so I think it's probably the first five words or so that led me to erroneously believe you were referring to me. 

Ok Snert, you got me. Point to Snert. Happy now?

This rivals last night's goal.  ;) 

Just out of curiousity, what are points redeemable for? 

Oh, you quoted it as if it was maysie who said that in this thread....so I looked at maysie's posts, perhaps in future you could indicate you actually did the posting. But thanks!

Frankly, I think LTJ's  re-purposing of those words of maysie's in this thread is  quite fine, it is rabble reactions afterall, and I personally am also disappointed with rabble/babble, though about other issues than this, so I take this thread to be about more issues than just stargazer being disappointed about her particular stance.

Unfortunately, Maysie Points (tm) are not hugely practical, Snert. It's the having them, and the brief moment of smugness that's all the reward that's needed. The moment is just about over too.

so I take this thread to be about more issues than just stargazer being disappointed about her particular stance.

I am no where near disappointed about my "particular stance".  It is not a "stance" it was an outright rejection of the huge mess that led to this in the first place. It has nothing to so with my particular stance. It was not about me. It was about BABBLERS (certain ones specifically) and their mean spitirness. It was about the left being inclusive of transgendered people. It was about human dignity, human suffering and how we can help that.

Not going to get into a discussion about this with you stargazer, as it is your stance or position, or you would not have started this thread stating you were disappointed in the title of it even.

And that is all I meant by that commentary.

Stargazer

I've stayed out of the LGBTI threads because I don't have any worth while input.  I found Rabble when I was searching something about sex workers. It actually took me a little while to post there. The environment was hardly a welcoming one. Reading the posts and back and forth between some I felt that if I pissed the wrong person off I'd have a major case of character assassination on my hands.  i can't speak for the LGBTI forum but if it's anything like the sex worker ones then to answer your "why" it is because it is not a very safe feeling place.

You could turn around and say Bullshit P4 but that would be coming from someone who has been around here a while. For a new poster it can be intimidating.  The end result is two types of people.

Someone who doesn't want to draw any attention thus doesn't contribute OR someone who comes in fists swinging expecting a fight.

I like how you say "we" failed and not try to only pin it on other members.

I think you missed the entire point. But hey, whatever.

P4, I totally agree with you. No call of bullshit from me.

I think i am one of the posters Stargazer is referring to. What I found interesting when I stepped out of the argument to think about it was that suddenly I had become, in the eyes of some, this rabid, anti-trans bigot. In fact, I don't have any personal feelings against those who claim trans-identity. I have no issues with their self-agency, with them having the right to choose what they want for themselves. I have known or had contact with several trans men and women over the years and find them to be intelligent, kind, and involved in their community.

I was hoping that it would be possible to raise some of the questions or opposing opinion I had in a spirit of genuine inquiry, with the recognition that it could be contentious or difficult to discuss. So far the mods have been willing to allow this. I will admit that my tone becomes provocative when I am confronted with a similar tone from another. That is often how argument escalates here. I maintain that the tone both the transwomen posters brought here were on at least some level, antagonistic, with references to attitudes that, in large part, don't exist, or are generally not expressed here on Babble. To ask people to "just listen" is fine, of course, but that's what has occurred in the sex workers rights forum as well, which, with  all due respect, has tumbleweeds blowing through it at the moment. What kind of "listening" is going on in a discussion that isn't occurring? In a forum that few visit?

Quite apart from whatever other questions I laid out on trans issues, there are valid feminist concerns about trans women and women-only space, for example.  Babble is supposed to be a pro-feminist space. Feminists are divided on this issue. Just like on the issues of porn and prostitution. Where are we going to be able to have this discussion? Where do you suggest? How will dialogue begin if two sides cannot engage each other?

I think this bears repeating.  It also speaks to some of Jas's comments.  I don't post a lot but I read a lot of threads, including the ones in the sex worker forum and the LGBTI forum.  I've learned a lot.  I don't feel I have a lot to add given that I have no experience with either, so I don't contribute.  These topics should be safe places and when one poster comes in and tells a personal story, they should feel safe doing so.  Some people here are so nitpicky that they jump on every little thing as if that is the whole substance of the post.

Jas says:

And raised a good point about the silence in the sex worker forum.  I think that some of our topics in the feminist forum are kind of dull because we all agree so much!  A good debate is fun and that's why many people are drawn to Babble.

Here is my 2 cents:  before we get into the contentious debates and uncomfortable issues, it's important to establish yourself as an ally.  It may be true that the new poster(s) came in expecting a fight, who knows?  But whenever you *meet* someone new on or offline, it's kind of good to get to know them and make nice before getting into the challenging questions.  Otherwise you scare them away and end up with another dead forum.  When someone does an intro type thread where they tell their story, who not leave that thread for that purpose and maybe save the harder stuff for another thread? 

Well, it is is a relatively recent forum (which I must admit shocked me when I joined up... several years on and no LGBT forum???) but I have been following it closely since its inception and no real fireworks there yet. I believe the mods have had to deal with a couple of trolls, and there was a wee bit of unpleasantness about whether or not it was appropriate to call a troglodyte a neanderthal (and yes, I was the guilt party name calling)... but in general the forum gets more cobwebs than postings. I do check from time to time and the postings are actually read, but there seems to be a disinclination on the part of most members to participate there. I have not yet seen anyone calling for it to be treated as a "safe space", and I think that - short of someone coming on calling for a rollback in the legislative advances made in the last couple of decades - it should be a welcoming forum for all. The general policies govering the rest of the site should apply, but they are not particularly onerous.

How about cro-magnon?

Or: 'you, sir or ma'am, may be an entirely anatomically modern human, but your views are anything but!'?

Much chortelling and readjustment of our golden rimmed monocles and pince-nez shall ensue.