Dziekanski inquiry - taser use questioned

The police say that Tasers do not kill, and in fact have never killed anyone. That would be startling news for the people who died after being tasered. The hair being split here is that the police do not believe those people would have died after being tasered except for having some pre-existing condition, or that they were in an "excited delerium" state.

Well, fine then, so please teach the police that people who are being arrested are often excited, have a fast heart beat, and are therefore prone to being in the danger zone if hit with the taser. Also, that not all tasers are working according to specs, and it has been found that some Taser units have even been altered to "perform better".

At the Dziekanski enquiry, taser user Officer Rundel testified that he would not have done anything different, knowing what he did at the time. That apparently includes using the tasers for a total of about 20 of the 31 seconds that they were being fired while Dziekanski was on the ground, possibly unconscious... but maybe Rundel did not know the man he was tasering was unconscious. Surely he knew that Dziekanski was on the ground, and no longer a threat. Good god, that was sheer brutality to sting anyone for 20 seconds while on the ground, after three initial shocks on the way down.

Officer Rundel said his training told him that multiple taserings can be "hazardous", and that is different than being "hazardous", but in reality the manual says that multiple taserings can be "harmfull". He didn't help the RCMP image much with that dodge.

The Taser was empployed that day at Vancouver Airport because the officers thought that Dziekanski was a threat, because he was brandishing a [dangerous/deadly?] stapler. I don't imagine RCMP training teaches recruits about how to protect oneself against a stapler, and not knowing if there were actually staples in the weapon, it is best to assume the worst!!

We, the public, should be in fear if we are prone to becoming exhasted, agitated, and a bit delerious after spending 12 hours flying, and another 12 waiting to get out of a holding area. Almost anyone would be. Anyone in that situation, if they do become a bit agitated, is fair game to the tasers because we might throw our hands in the air in frustration, and that will frighten the police. And remember that if you are agitated, the taser is more likely to kill you. The RCMP believe that they didn't do anything wrong at the airport that day when arresting Dziekanski, and they also believe that tasers do not kill. So, be carefull out there, the RCMP are in charge, there is "no escape" [noah_scape].

Comments

Submitted by M. Spector on February 26, 2009 - 8:46pm.

An additional link you forgot:

http://rabble.ca/babble/national-news/rcmp-killers-hire

Submitted by RevolutionPlease on February 26, 2009 - 8:52pm.

Noah_Scape wrote:

there is "no escape" [noah_scape].

As more people die, the police maintain their historic stance.

Submitted by Noah_Scape on February 26, 2009 - 9:15pm.

LOL - good photo, very aperpos, as in "fitting".

Submitted by Unionist on March 3, 2009 - 2:04am.

Dziekanski video showed reality you won't hear from Mounties

Quote:

After nearly a week of testimony from three of the four Mounties involved in the confrontation that day, it is clear that if it were not for that video, the version of events supplied by the officers wouldn't have come close to what actually happened.

Draw your own conclusions why.

Submitted by Fidel on March 3, 2009 - 2:14pm.

The sadistic bastards are lying their asses off even with video evidence against them. They should be tasered and then fired.

Submitted by TinTincognito on March 4, 2009 - 12:21pm.

Comment from a regularly admitted young offender in my classroom,"Tasers are worse than guns because with a gun as long as you look like you're surrendering cops aren't going to fire. 'Okay guys, okay I'm coming, don't rush me.' But with a taser, you don't cooperate they might just start blazing."

Submitted by Unionist on March 4, 2009 - 12:24pm.

This cop, who tasered Mr. Dziekanski five times, was using a Taser in the field for the very first time.

I hope the commission of inquiry recommends that no police officer be allowed to use a Taser or other weapon the first time.

Submitted by Sean in Ottawa on March 4, 2009 - 12:49pm.

It is frightening when police say their justification was that he "looked defiant" and this is reported without absolute derision.

Submitted by Buddy Kat on March 4, 2009 - 12:59pm.

Regardless of what the commission finds the damage has already been done. When the commission is over the Poles will conduct their own investigation. From what the whole country has just witnessed it should be no surprise what conclusion they come too.

When they do the outcome will probably be like this : " Hi Demitri Alekanevich Polish secret service (places silencer on gun) Pfft Pfft Pffft pfft" The End

Another case that's getting some attention here in Saskatchewan is the Deganais trial where things look like there gearing up for a self defence situation. There the mounties have already destroyed the only video tape that was viewed once then destroyed. So they are learning from the taser incident. Destroy incriminating evidence immediately!

Heads up to any movie producers out there...this Dagenais case looks to be a good rambo style movie. Where the bad guys (rcmp) go after the good guy(Deganais) ..who defends himself and then eludes the whole swat military hunting team..contacts the media before turning himself in...then does so in broad daylight....making sure if he is assassinated there will be a hard copy left...very brave. Of course there are a lot more twists and turns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkM5eyN8ytI&feature=user

Submitted by remind on March 4, 2009 - 1:55pm.

It has been very interesting watching this play play out, here in BC. However, I am not liking where it is going, and how it is being played out optically. I believe they, the RCMP, are going to let the first time operator of the tazer take the fall and the other officers are going to be excluded from recriminations.

Why? Because he is a black officer, and the other officers are white and, those are the optics being played out into people in BC's minds. I am not sure if the officer in question was white, they the board of inquiry would be saying the things that they are to him, and making the supposition inferences either.

Submitted by the hydra on March 6, 2009 - 4:32pm.

I would rather be tazered than be shot or beaten with a night stick. This whole Dzikanski thing just shows how stupid Canada has become. No other country in the world would make such a big deal about this. They would say "tough shit. the guy freaked out. . . don't tell us how to deal with potentially dangerous situations." If the dude had grabbed some kid and killed them, we would be enduring and endless string of inquiries over why the cops didn't act quicker and deal with the situation. I have one word for everyone. . . . Mayerthorpe.

Submitted by M. Spector on March 6, 2009 - 4:33pm.

the hydra wrote:

I would rather be tazered than be shot or beaten with a night stick.

And I'd be happy to oblige.

Submitted by the hydra on March 6, 2009 - 6:03pm.

Would you really? Wow, are you passive aggresive and talk tough on forums or do you really like beating people up?

Submitted by N.Beltov on March 6, 2009 - 7:01pm.

The Polish authorities asked for the case files as they are required to investigate the death of any Pole no matter where it takes place. The Canadian authorities refused to provide the files. This case is not only a domestic disgrace and atrocity but it has become an international disgrace for Canada.

God love those Conservatives and the wonderful way they promote Canadian taser tourism, protect our citizens (like Omar Khadr) in American dungeons, and stick up for Canadians mistreated by foreign authorities (Maher Arar). Real patriots! yup.

Submitted by Agent 204 on March 31, 2009 - 7:29pm.

The lawyers for the RCMP are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now:

Quote:

Lawyers for the federal government and the RCMP officers involved in Dziekanski's death asked her about Dziekanski's fear of flying, how much he drank and smoked, and whether he was an aggressive person.

Source. Shameless, eh?

Submitted by Benjamin on March 31, 2009 - 3:27pm.

the hydra wrote:

They would say "tough shit. the guy freaked out. . . don't tell us how to deal with potentially dangerous situations."

The potentially dangerous situation being a very tired man with a stapler in a "combative stance".

Submitted by thorin_bane on April 1, 2009 - 3:20am.

Yeah because he might smoke and could drink, that obviuolsy make it OK to kill the guy. I also wonder how come the Vancouver Airport is going unscathed in this. They were the ones that detained him by himself for hour on end. What the RCMP did is totally unacceptable. By that I mean pretending they went there to help. Lying and killing and making false evidence is standard practices. Can't blame them for that.

I think for once we are kinda glad the voyeurism of camera cell phone people actually did us a kennedy like favour. We got to see what did happen not just heard a story about it. Even still the RCMP is trying to deny what you can see.

Submitted by Boom Boom on April 2, 2009 - 8:04pm.

Thread drift: Tase Early, Tase Often

excerpt:

To your list of highway hazards, better add itchy TASER fingers.

I think I'm finished with driving in the Lower 48.

Submitted by Brian White on April 2, 2009 - 9:44pm.

When I was a kid, I put my finger in a 220 volt light bulb socket, and I had sore muscles for a week after. A shock from an electric fencer that only lasts a tenth of a second or less gave me a headache for days. (I was ducking under it). I think an average tazer shock is longer lasting and much higher voltage than either of those instances. I also worked for a guy in switzerland who hardly felt electric shock. He moved the electric fencer wires while they were still on! So if he was a suspected criminal, I guess they would have used 5 or 6 on him and seen smoke coming out of his ears before he went down.

If the human reaction to electric shock is so varied, I do not see any reason to continue with their use. (I include the human reaction in bystanders and in users).

How could you watch someone in such awful agony and continue to inflict pain?

Submitted by postmaster.general on April 9, 2009 - 5:49pm.

. . . how about this angle: the slaying of dziekanski was a contracted hit . . .

. . . clearly there was no reason for the rcmp to attend the vancouver airport on october 14, 2007 and kill robert dziekanski. the man was slaughtered in cold blood by the canadian government for no apparent reason. the pole was ASSASSINATED by the government of canada . . .

. . . but why was the death of dziekanski ordered by the canadian government? what was the canadian government's motive? the canadian government obviously saw dziekanski as some kind of threat and that is why his death was ordered . .

. . . OR . . .

. . . it was a paid hit, a contracted killing undertaken by the royal canadian mounted police. the rcmp were hired to snuff dziekanski by underworld elements, a contracted hit by the v-mob, the vancouver city mafia . . .

THE CANADIAN CONNECTION and more . . .

Submitted by Laura Colella on April 9, 2009 - 11:27pm.

You know what I hate? I hate when unfounded, irrational conspiracy theories are thrown around. People are trying to have real conversation about a real issue.

While I'm dying to intervene of this whole issue, I'm not going to but I am looking forward to the full report from the Commission.

The one point I did want to address though was on the effect of electricity on different people - you see, I think this should be part of the operational guidance given to RCMP members - not everyone reacts the same way to being hit with electricity. But what is the determination on how often they will deploy the Taser and for how long? One second? Or five? Will a person who clearly is a threat to himself and/or to others will be hit once, and see what the reaction is? Or many times? How does one react under the pressure of the moment, I think, is an important element. I'm presuming that the Commission's report will address all this. But in the meantime, the Commission has issued a report on the use of Tasers, and its an interesting read for anyone who's interested. http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/prr/rep/sir/cew-ai-09-eng.aspx

Submitted by postmaster.general on April 15, 2009 - 2:48pm.

Laura Colella wrote:

You know what I hate? I hate when unfounded, irrational conspiracy theories are thrown around. People are trying to have real conversation about a real issue.

. . . conspiracy theory it ain't. it's conspiracy possibility . . .

. . . you know what i hate? i hate fake "inquiries" that aren't really inquiries at all but rather welfare payments to justice system officials -- especially lawyers . . .

. . . take a look at it. who's getting paid in this "inquiry" into what caused the death of the pole? lawyers and lawyers and lawyers. lawyers and the justice system officials administrating the "inquiry" are getting paid . . . and i'll bet that even the murdering pigs on the stand are receiving a salary to show up for the "inquiry" in which they face NO CONSEQUENCE for their actions . . .

. . . but are the victims getting paid like everyone else in the "inquiry" courtroom? not only are the victims not being compensated like everyone else in the courtroom, like total exploited suckers the victims have to make out of pocket payoffs to the bar to be heard . . .

. . . what a fiasco . . .

THE CANADIAN CONNECTION and more . . .

Submitted by Daedalus on April 17, 2009 - 7:03am.

the hydra wrote:

I would rather be tazered than be shot or beaten with a night stick.

It's attitudes like that which are the problem with tasers. Even though they are potentially lethal to a wide range of people, police see them as a mild inducement, unlike a gun or nightstick, that can be employed in a much wider range of circumstances.

If people regarded tasers as the potentially lethal things that they are, officers wouldn't use them so readily. If the police only employed tasers as rarely as they sought any other sort of armed resolution, there'd be nothing particularly wrong with them. The point is that they seem to behave as if tasers are just joy-buzzers or squirt guns and are willing to electrocute someone for 20 seconds after they have gone down - electrocute them to death - just because they "look defiant". And they're willing to cover it up too. We wouldn't even know about this if Paul Pritchard hadn't fought for his tape - it would just be "some incident at the airport, I heard it was a terrorist or criminal who flew in from Poland and died during a confrontation with police, terrible stuff", and forgotten quickly.

Submitted by thorin_bane on April 29, 2009 - 11:03am.

This joke of an inquiry continues

From the article:

Swerdlow agreed that "sudden in-custody death" best describes Dziekanski's death, but he disagreed that the Taser could have played any part.

He acknowledged that Tasers could potentially cause indirect stress on a subject's body, which may in turn contribute to cardiac arrest in some situations.

"While I think it's nearly certain Mr. Dziekanski was stressed … whatever stress he was under, it didn't cause the cardiac arrhythmia that led to his death," he said.

Just when you throught it couldn't get more rediculous. Why even have an inquiry if all the people are bought and paid for. Can't wait till Poland sues canada for wrongful death. Swerdlow as noted in the link works for Taser Inc. Reminds me of the Pirates Bay case. How corrupt is the system? Worse than the thrid world I would argue. As people think it isn't. At least when you know it is, you don't expect Justice.

Mr Lee the forensics expect somehow missed the 5 taser marks on the body, cuz the police said they only shot him once....what the hell are you doing. Not your job obviuosly. Complete incompetance from start to finish, or willful ignorance.

Submitted by thorin_bane on April 30, 2009 - 12:16pm.

Someone thinks tasers kill

"Is it fair to say that, in your opinion, had Mr. Dziekanski not been Tasered, not been restrained on the floor, that he would still be alive today?" asked Walter Kosteckyj, the lawyer for Dziekanski's mother.

"I suspect that, yes," Butt replied.

"Is that a strong opinion?" Kosteckyj asked.

"Yes," Butt replied.

Submitted by Michelle on August 18, 2009 - 1:33pm.

Shocking: Taser producer files suit against Braidwood Inquiry

Quote:

In a bizarre, American-style legal and public relations intervention, Taser International filed a lawsuit last week against the recommendations of the Braidwood Inquiry.

Taser International is using hardball American public relations tactics to grow its company, despite clear evidence of human rights implications associated with use of their device. Much of this is happening with the full support of Canadian and American policing agencies. The Canadian media's failure to criticize Taser International on these matters effectively is a reflection of Canada's underdeveloped public sphere.

The 18-month inquiry, completed in July 2009, concluded that tasers can cause death in specific circumstances, particularly to those with underlying health conditions and when there are multiple uses of the weapon on the same person. The inquiry was initiated after the high profile death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver Airport, where he was approached by four RCMP officers and tasered repeatedly.

On Friday, David Neave, an attorney for Taser International in Canada said, "We provided ... more than 170 studies, periodicals (and) reports with respect to the safety of the device and use-of-force questions. All of that information clearly indicates that when the device is used properly there is not cardiac effect. For reasons unknown to us, that information did not wind its way into the report."

Submitted by Buddy Kat on August 18, 2009 - 2:45pm.

This must be the game plan the government lawyer was trying to buy time for while the rcmp regroup and make up a NEW story....It's all such a whitewash....when the inquiry begins it will be faced with all this NEW stuff designed to muzzle it. Regardless the damage has been done. The last report on rcmp investigating itself pretty well exposed the corrupt service for what it is.

Submitted by B9sus4 on August 18, 2009 - 9:23pm.

"Well, Sheriff, how did the owlhoot die?"

"Naturally."

"He died naturally?"

"Yup. He was shot five times and he died. Naturally."

-- Mad Magazine, circa 1960.

Submitted by Pogo on September 12, 2009 - 2:45am.

Just because the Dziekanski inicident involved Richmond police, I thought I should post this here. On Thursday at our monthly Poverty Response Committee meeting a story was related about a family who ran into trouble with the law. New immigrants from Afghanistan, they were having trouble providing food for their family and one of the sons had shoplifted from a local grocery store. Upon finding out the back story the police then picked up the family and brought them to the food bank and then drove them and their groceries home.

Submitted by Buddy Kat on September 17, 2009 - 11:47am.

That's it a single act of kindness.......notoriious biker gangs have toy runs every year so unprivileged children can have something under the tree.

Submitted by Pogo on September 17, 2009 - 4:23pm.

I am not blowing it up into something greater than it is. Just noting that there is potential out there. (unlike the toy run, this has no press). The police are also providing volunteers to our extreme weather shelter and Homeless Connect Day.

Submitted by remind on September 22, 2009 - 10:28am.

The Inquiry resumes today

Quote:

Who was Robert Dziekanski?

Kosowska was livid when she was put on the hot seat at Braidwood Inquiry earlier this year as lawyers asked her about Robert's past, health and whether he had drinking and smoking problems.

To her, it was a thinly veiled smear campaign.

"Can we stop this line of questioning?" she pleaded during her testimony March 30. "You are trying to make a bad person out of him, which means that you can kill a bad person but you cannot kill a good person. I'm fed up. I'm not going to answer any more questions. How can you?

http://thegallopingbeaver.blogspot.com/

And you know this attempt to portray him as a bad person so his death is no big deal, rings very close to home on how they are trrying to defame Sheppard.

Submitted by Brian White on September 24, 2009 - 1:34am.

Has taser international investigated the possibility that having a taser in his hands causes "excited delerium" (or some other new ilness with a similar name) in the brains of the cops? Could it be that some primeval suppressed "killer instinct" comes out when you zap a guy and send him into a frenzy of agony?

Kinda like in caveman times when it was always kill or be killed and whether it was a gazelle, or lion or enemy human, you went into kill mode when you saw the beginnings of the death agony

So you just gotto zap him again and again and again and again? A "bloodrush" or something like in lord of the flies. I mean, lets face it, a bunch of guys stood by as the victim got lethal jolts of electricity. Nobody seems to have said " remember, boys, the training manual says one 4 second burst" (or whatever the safe level of electrocution is).

Maybe they have to estimate the weight of the victim? "He is a big fucker, so 4 times the recommended dose". "But he hasnt eaten in 14 hours and he has clammy hands" "So you gotta leave it at just 2 zaps". Or maybe the guy just saw star wars too many times and couldnt stop himself once he started zapping.

I would hope that defence lawyers use their inventiveness and sarchastic irony to counter bullshit arguements like "excited delerium".

Has anybody noted that electrocution is horrible torture?

Does the geneva convention apply? "well it would if we were trying to extract info from the victim"

I stuck my finger into a light socket 220 volt as a kid and it was an awful experience.

I also got zapped by electric fence wires (on the farm to keep cattle from breaking out) a few times. It is awful even for 1/10 of a second.

Another thing. I worked for a guy in switzerland who moved the electric fence wires WITHOUT turning it off. I found out when I went to help him and got lifted into the air. He just felt it as a tingle in his fingers. If there is that much variation in how people feel electric shock, is it any wondor that some people do not get stopped by the first jolt? And more tazering is going to kill these people just as dead as it will kill us. They are just not going to jump around as much as we do before they drop dead as their heart stops. So what are they going to call that kind of death. "calm delerium?"

Michelle wrote:

Shocking: Taser producer files suit against Braidwood Inquiry

Quote:

Submitted by NorthReport on June 29, 2010 - 8:27pm.

Special prosecutor consider charges against Mounties in Dziekanski Tasering

http://www.canada.com/Special+prosecutor+consider+charges+against+Mounti...