Should private clinics get H1N1 vaccine?

Just in case people missed this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/h1n1-swine-flu/private-clinic-patients-jump-the-line-for-flu-shot/article1347746/

This is not surprising.

Where there is illness there will be someone making a buck.

No, those clinics should not have the flu vaccine.  Those clinics shouldn't even exist if you ask me.

However, just a note - you don't necessarily have to line up for six hours to get vaccinated.  A lot of family doctors also have the vaccines and are accepting appointments.  Check with your family doctor to see if she or he has it.

I got a fax from the clinic here to get my vaccination an hour from now.

Shaun Francis of MEDCAN was on Evan Solomon's Power and Politics show on CBC right now explaining how they got the 3,000 doses - they applied many months ago for the HINI vaccine, just as they have for the regular flu vaccine, for the past ten years.  Francis says MEDCAN has 40,000 clients who all have paid $2,300 each for MEDCAN services. MEDCAN has given 1,500 vaccinations of the 3,000 so far, and all to high risk patients within its clintele, and is offering their vaccines to the general public outside of MEDCAN membership. Dunno if this was all BS or spin.

He did not say that they all pay $2300.00. He said they have clients in the heath club, eye clinic and other services. The $2300.00 is for the full 4 hour medical exam. 

Some doctors offices also have the vaccine now. 

I'm pretty sure he said exactly what I posted, because I saw it go across my TV screen in Closed Captioning.

ETA: I'll give you the benefit of doubt, because I was relying on my memory, which isn't infallible.

Well, that's not proper either. How did some family doctors get the vaccine? What's the difference between a "family doctor" and a private clinic? A friend of mine here - who is a family doctor - has been to three different sites trying to get herself vaccinated, so far without success.

Who is sending vaccine to "a lot of family doctors" while the rest of the population has to line up?

What a way to run a health care system.

Strange that a small isolated village like mine in Quebec will have the entire population vaccinated this week, and probably all the villages on the Lower North Shore will have done likewise. I don't understand the  federal Health Minster saying some will have to wait until Christmas.

I was vaccinated this morning after I received a fax asking me to be at the clinic for 1030 am. Got the shot, no waiting.

I expect that it's due to how isolated your community is, Boom Boom.  If someone in your community has severe symptoms and is in respiratory distress, they may not have an ICU close enough to treat him/her in time.  So they'd vaccinate to reduce the possible numbers of that sort of occurrence. 

That sounds reasonable. We're not connected to any road network - nearest ICU is 400 km away, and the only way out in a medical emergency is by very expensive air ambulance (which I've had to use twice this year!) - fully covered by provincial medicare.

ETA: I'm looking at a private clinic website. Shouldn't all those highly-skilled services be available to the general public?

Calgary Flames skip flu vaccine lineups

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/11/03/calgary-flames-h1n1-sw...

"The province is investigating how some Calgary Flames players and their families received the swine flu vaccine last week at a special clinic with the help of Alberta Health Services."

I wonder if it would be best if they did have some priority for flu shots since they travel so much?

I hear you, Unionist.  I believe the doctors just ordered it before the whole "plan" was rolled out.  From what I was hearing from family doctors on the radio, it was basically just whichever family doctors decided to get the vaccine just ordered it.  So probably any family doctor could have ordered it in order to give it to their patients, just like they order the regular flu vaccine.

This is just me guessing, though.  And I have no idea whether those family doctors have been instructed to only give it to their priority patients first or not.  The point is, though, even if they HAVE been instructed to do so, at least with your family doctor, you can make an appointment instead of standing in line forever.  Which seems to me to be a more sensible way of doing things.

Fidel, I do not see the need for them to get the shot before others.

B.C. hockey team doctor under fire over H1N1 shots

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091104/bc_hockey_team_shots_091104/20091104?hub=BritishColumbia

"B.C.'s chief medical officer said Wednesday that a physician did not comply with provincial guidelines when he arranged for most of the players of an Abbotsford hockey team to get H1N1 flu vaccinations.

"That was clearly outside the province's guidelines for a publicly funded vaccine program. I'm prepared to deal with this on an individual basis with the physician," Dr. Perry Kendall told reporters Wednesday."

It seem like hockey players are special.

Well, this is Canada, after all.

Well hockey players are very special, even more of them got extra special treatment.

"Ontario Health Minister Deb Matthews is promising to investigate whether celebrity athletes jumped the queue for the swine flu shot while other groups are being forced to wait and the province's supply dwindles."

 http://www.healthzone.ca/health/newsfeatures/swineflu/article/721587--questions-after-some-athletes-given-flu-shots?bn=1

http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/Vaccination+nightmare+worried/2185...

Not only is Hannah, 14, on immunosuppressant drugs that could make her more susceptible to the H1N1 virus, but Goodman’s husband, Steve, was home sick with swine flu.

It was a nightmare for Goodman, and her doctor, Ernest Seidman, only reinforced her concern when he called her Friday morning to say it was imperative that Hannah be vaccinated that day.

Armed with a letter from the Montreal Children’s Hospital stating that Hannah suffers from a chronic illness and she and the whole household must be vaccinated immediately, and another letter from Seidman saying Hannah must be vaccinated that day, Goodman began a tour of CLSCs in quest of vaccines for Hannah and her brothers, Noah, 11 and Jacob, 8.

Not only was she turned away from the first three vaccination centres, the personnel refused to even read her letters. Seidman offered to speak to a nurse by phone, but the nurse at that CLSC refused. At one CLSC, Goodman and her children were escorted out of the building.

Goodman, who is also a nurse, watched as a hospital employee who works in a gift shop was vaccinated while her daughter’s high-risk case was refused.

Schedule in Montreal

(people with chronic illnesses are scheduled to start November 23rd.

À partir du 6 novembre 2009 :
- Enfants de 6 mois à 5 ans
- Parents, frères et s?urs de nourrissons de moins de 6 mois
- Femmes ayant 20 semaines et plus de grossesse (vaccin avec adjuvant**)
- Femmes enceintes avec maladies chroniques (vaccin avec adjuvant**)

À partir du 9 novembre 2009 :
- Femmes enceintes ayant moins de 20 semaines de grossesse

À partir du 16 novembre 2009 :
- Personnes de 18 ans et moins atteintes d'une maladie chronique (diabétiques, asthmatiques, bronchitiques, insuffisants cardiaques, etc.)

À partir du 23 novembre 2009 :
- Personnes de 18 à 65 ans atteintes d'une maladie chronique (diabétiques, asthmatiques, bronchitiques, insuffisants cardiaques, etc.)

À partir du 7 décembre 2009 :
- Jeunes de 5 à 18 ans
- Adultes de 19 à 65 ans
- Personnes âgées de plus de 65 ans

Just a reality check on who we really are, a society that gives those with fame and money priority and in which those with fame and money feel they are entitiled to that.  As someone who is not planning on taking the vaccine I am grateful to be out of that loop but I do sympathize with those who are vulnerable and feel they need the vaccine.

Alberta Health Official Fired Over Flames VaccinationEDMONTON -

[26]

 Mt. Sinai staff outraged as board jumps H1N1 queue

http://www.healthzone.ca/health/newsfeatures/swineflu/article/722188--mt-sinai-staff-outraged-as-board-jumps-h1n1-queue?bn=1

"Unionized staff at Mount Sinai Hospital are calling for the resignation of its board of directors after members were given early H1N1 vaccinations meant to be reserved for health workers and those at high risk of complications."

I think I am seeing a pattern form here.

Thread drift:  Ask military to help with H1N1: Ottawa councillor

excerpt:

Coun. Bob Monette said Thursday he has written to federal Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq asking if doctors, nurses and medics from the Canadian Forces could be deployed in cities across Canada to help with the H1N1 vaccinations.

Sounds great, Boom Boom.  (Why did I think Webgear posted that?  Strange!  Sorry for the confusion, Webgear!)  I'd love to see the armed forces used in this manner!

Sorry having internet troubles tonight, did my last post go through? I can not see it.

It's a great idea, IF there was vaccine available.  Another idea: get pharmacists to do it.  Pharmacists give flu shots in the States, and Alberta.  It's pretty easy to give; not like starting an IV.  We just need a tiny legislative change and, um, vaccine.

The latest: more hospital execs got the H1N1 shot:

As a front-line health care worker employed by the provincial government who is NOT being offered flu shots, I'm speechless. 

On the radio this morning, someone from Mount Sinai said that the Board members got it on the very first day of the flu clinic, when there wasn't very much demand because it was the day before that 13 year-old kid died.  So they weren't rationing the medicine that day, and they were giving it to anyone who came into the clinic, including anyone from off the street, in the hospital, etc.  If this is the case, then I'm not sure it's fair to criticize them for giving out the shot to non-priority groups BEFORE it was being rationed.

I was in a cab tonight, and I coughed once, and thought, I hope he doesn't think I'm sick.  Then I thought, hmm.  Maybe cab drivers should also be considered a priority group.  They're constantly exposed to people who could be sick in an enclosed car.  Furthermore, often people take cabs to the hospital (I did a couple of weeks ago when I fell down the stairs and injured my back).

I had made a post about BoomBoom's link however it never went through.

I thik the militray should be used in rural areas.

I'd like to see our highly trained military medics actually used for something closer to home, that's why the article I posted caught my eye.

Board members at seven hospitals jump queue

http://www.healthzone.ca/health/newsfeatures/swineflu/article/722591--board-members-at-seven-hospitals-jump-queue?bn=1

"At least seven Toronto hospitals have given preferential access to scarce H1N1 vaccines to their boards of governors.

Hospitals where board members jumped the queue include Mount Sinai, St. Michael's, Sunnybrook, Bridgepoint and the University Health Network's three hospitals."

I was watching Wendy Mesley interview two (doctors?) persons on The National over the nation-wide mass hysteria around H1N1, and she asked if the media were to blame for this. Kind of a dumb question to ask, because isn't that self-evident?  The male doctor (forgot his name) said that at the end of this, there will be probably 200 - 300 deaths from H1N1 in Canada, but 4,000 deaths in Canada from the regular 'flu as there are every year, and which go mostly unreported.  (I'm cross-posting this to another forum as well, sorry).

Well, it might have something to do with the WHO's definition of pandemic and its practice of then using the term as part of the virus name. It's not just "H1N1", it's "pandemic influenza A (H1N1)" and "pandemic H1N1 (2009)".

Yes, that's undoubtedly the main part of it, but the media have also swarmed all over the most emotional stories out there. The media have behaved like sharks in a feeding frenzy  on this story.

Sineed, would you please tell us about this proposed legislative change?

Only trained and certified health care professionals are allowed to give shots,  it would require expanding that designation to pharmacists too...and then setting up all the guidelines and regulations for on site injections....

Are people really interested in such additional services?

"Press For Truth cover the 4th day of H1N1 vaccinations in Toronto.

The numbers are considerably down from just 4 days ago and now Canadian officials are ramping up their efforts to get people to take the shot by expanding clinics into the workplace and schools. Another tactic they are using is to claim that there is a shortage."

It is interesting to see citizen journalism and to consider the issue in a legal and historical perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDiUPbgiNkY

The fact that some people have stolen rationed vaccine from pregnant women and small children should really come as no surprise to Ontarians, or at least it shouldn't.    Privelege of this sort is entrenched and evident all the time.  

I bet Dr. Charles Smith got his.   And I bet E-Health consultants, because they are integral parts of the health care system got thiers, too.

Just imagine if this was a real emergency. 

The Ontario government would be bringing in the military all right.  To protect the rich, and shoot anyone who complains.

Remember you city folks did not want the military in the cities.

I think we would be helping our rural friends first.

The solution is to stop complaining then.

Actually, I never minded living next to Wolsley barraks and the 1st RCR.  Good neighbours, and it didn't bother me a bit to watch them do the end of their 15 mile run/walk down Oxford Street with full pack and rifles. 

But it wasn't us city folk who moved the RCR out of London, it was Brian Mulroney, in his second term, as punishment for not re-electing Tory M.P. Jim Jepson in what was then called London East. 

The solution is to stop complaining then.

Ontarians are way ahead of you on that.  It's one strategy they have down pat.

and I see giving pharamists the right to give shots as a further push to privatize healthcare...or indeed allowing more private access to taxpayer's money, on the part of those who already make way more than nurses

....am very uncomfortable with posts 42 and 43

Um ... is there still a doctor on babble? There used to be.

It's my understanding that pharmacy is classically the first qualification that MDs get -- it's still the first rung on the ladder, as it were. Is that still true? As late as the early C19, pharmacy and anatomy/surgery were about all that doctors could be trained in.

Anyway, I think there has never been any doubt that pharmacists are trained and certified healthcare professionals. Their knowledge and skills are foundational for all doctors.

Perhaps I'm looking at today through the rose coloured glasses of the past, but I remember a real emergency in the 70's here in London, when we experienced the last bona fide blizzard.  While northerners might scoff at how we in the bananna belt view snow, this was a terrible storm by anyone's standards, and many people died, some of co poisoning as the sudden snow fall krept up to tail pipes in idling cars on the 401, and some who actually froze to death as the temperatures plumeted.

And everyone helped out.  We looked after the little old lady down the street, as the APC's maned by the RCR rumbled the windows in your house in their frantic attempts to find as many people as possible stranded in cars.  

But look at the response to the Blackout, under Ernie Eaves.  No direction, no prioritization.  People were looking for direction, and there was none.

Now we have this.  I'm absolutely disgusted that Hospital Board members know better.  And so do the people who arranged for NHL and OHL players to be vaccinated.

They stole rationed vaccine from pregnant women and infants, and people with underlying medical conditions.  That's lower than a snake's belly. 

It's reprehensible.

My M.P.P., Health Minister Deb Mathews is making all the right noises about outrage on this, but she's also the one who doesn't see any need for a criminal investigation into the E-Health theft.  Theft?  That money, stolen by consultants and others, was diverted from those in medical need, from those in pain.  Indirect as it might be, that's more than an act of theft, it's an act of violence.  And they'll skate from it, because they are priveleged and protected by the likes of Deb Mathews and our classist and privelege maintaining criminal injustice system.

Mark my words, if ever there's a real emergency, a real crisis in this province, we're screwed big time.

Remind

Post #42 was meant to be sarcastic, remember there was a thread about the government waiting to create some bases in the some cities a few years ago.

In that particular thread, quite a few babblers did not want the army in their cities.

I think the military would be better used for vaccinating the rural areas. Teams could be sent into small towns and villages and help those people without access to the cities with numerous privileges.

Meanwhile, at the Jewish General Hospital in Montreal:

H1N1: Jewish General vaccinated top 200 donors: 'It has nothing to do with the fact that they gave money,' hospital spokesperson says

http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/H1N1+Jewish+General+vaccinated+donors/2194569/story.html

 ... Hospital officials, however, denied that there’s a link between making a financial donation and getting fast-tracked for the flu shots. Rather, the 200 donors are all volunteers at the Jewish General in some capacity, said spokesperson Karen Ohayon ...

However, a physician who works at a Montreal hospital accused the Jewish General of applying a double standard to favour “elite donors.” “That’s disgusting,” said the doctor, who spoke on condition that her name not be used. “Where are the priorities in our society? Are sports figures and elite donors a priority?” ...

Marie-Ève Bédard, press attaché to Quebec Health Minister Yves Bolduc, said board members of hospitals and donors are not entitled to vaccines ahead of the rest of the population ...

The top 200 elite donors? Must be a typo.  Must be the elite volunteers, yeah, that's the coupon ...

Currently, injecting is a "controlled act," which pharmacists are forbidden from doing.  

It becomes more apparent everyday class war is on......

Pharmacists receive more training in pharmacology than doctors do, who in turn spent more time learning diagnostic skills.  Our respective schoolings are apples and oranges, really.

No I didn't thanks for the explanation though, much less creepy now....

and  live in a small town no need for military help here to give vaccinations....trying to think of one that would.

I am glad to see the Canucks are doing the right thing by paying to jump the queue in America where the system is based on the rich jumping ahead of the people at risk. 

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Canucks+seek+H1N1+vaccine+winger+Bern...

Remind

BoomBoom's article, post #26.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2009/11/06/dnd-swineflu.html

I am not saying it is required for the military to do any vaccinating, however if it was required, the focus should be on rural areas.

Thanks sineed,  had not noticed skdadl's post....who also apparently does not realize that nurses are just as well trained in pharmacology as Drs are, if not more so, after a couple of years of pratical work...as we have to know what we are dispensing and all associated  side effects, drug interactions, contraindications, etc, etc....

ETA:

Never said there was any doubt, said they were not trained and certified to do so.

Giving a shot, is a restricted activity, that requires training and certification beyond what pharmacists have, currently, which is what I meant when I stated trained and certified.

.....you actually have to pass a written and practical test on each specific type of shot that you give, I.e. intramuscular, surface, IV....

The decisions about distributing the flu vaccine were made at a very high level in this province with little consultation; I'm wondering if Deb Matthew's outrage is of the "lady doth protest too much" variety.

But mainly I wanted to quote Tommy's post because it's the heart of the matter.  A pregnant woman denied flu vaccine today could be this girl tomorrow:

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/177/8/851

But they expedite the vaccine to hockey players and hospital board members.  Disgusting.

I have some health issues and they vaccinated me today for h1n1 and seasonal flu when I went for a checkup at a walk in clinic in Victoria.

I just dropped in cos I was feeling generally shitty and thought the pneumonia might be coming back.

I didn't even know they had the vaccine.

One of my neighbours  just across the road from me (45 ish and previously healthy) iis critical in hospital with it (might not make it) and a friend with athsma has had it for almost a  month but it has not hit him really hard.  

Brian

Perhaps this will set some fears to rest. This source - with an interactive map - indicates that there have been three flu deaths per million in Canada. See the stats for your province:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/h1n1-swine-flu/flu-vaccine-sh...

Hospital board members defend themselves against accusations of an ethical lapse in receiving the H1N1 shot ahead of pregnant women and young children:

http://www.healthzone.ca/health/newsfeatures/swineflu/article/723528--ho...

That's total crap - speaking as a front-line health care worker, there's no way front line health care workers, in the middle of a pandemic, would go to the board saying, "It's important for you volunteers, who have no contact with patients, to get the flu shot."  The flu is spread primarily by droplets, meaning that you won't catch it by breathing the air in a hospital.  Health care workers would consider board members to be at no higher risk of catching the flu than the general population.

If they really want to show how ethical they are, these board members who jumped the queue should resign.

What's a front line health care worker?

A person who works in health care directly with patients.  Nurses, doctors, pharmacists, physiotherapists, lab technicians, etc.

Your map is way out of date (Updated oct 31) . Please do not link to static pages. Bc updates their deaths on tuesdays and there have been 2 tuesdays since your map was put in place.

Here's a more up-to-date link; it gets updated every Friday so this is as of Nov. 5th:

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/surveillance-eng.php

Nationwide, it's 115 deaths so far.

It is still a bit wonky. Bc has 23 deaths (Updated today) not 17. Last week bc had 202 new severe cases.  And the alberta deaths have gone way higher too.

"alberta's H1N1 death toll has risen by five to 25 and one-third of the province's critical care beds are now filled with virus patients" is more recent.

Peopel in alberta got fired about the flames vaccination but it seems in bc the private clinic getting first dibs on vaccine hasn't been punished in BC.

Why not?

People are still refusing to acknowelege the main distinction between the pandemic flu and normal flu. The average age of the deaths is about 30 years younger than the average age of seasonal flu victims.      So it is hitting people with growing children to a far greater extent. 

It is socially much more damaging. It is economically much more damaging too.  "underlieing health conditions" is been heard of way too much to explain away death of people less than 50. If you actually looked into it, perhaps 90% of us have an underlieing health condition.

They are now "cautiously optimistic" about my neighbour. His wife was not allowed to touch him in about2 weeks, and if he makes it it will be another 2 weeks in hospital.I think he is still on a ventalator.

A friend went to hillside (an area of victoria) to  get vaccinated. She has athsma and she said it was a free for all.  They had set up a big temporary clinic to deal with the people. BUT they didn't have a connection to the central database. (You  just need your carecard to let them verify if you are priority or not).

She was annoyed because it shouldnt be a free for all and because she had phoned ahead to make sure she had everything she needed (She could easily have brought a letter from her doctor) to prove her situation. No scanning of carecards is stupid.And  no connection to the database is unbelievable.

She could have been turned away on a whim if someone decided she was a bullshitter.

I think Canada is doing a pretty good job but it could be better.

Brian

Brian, I hope you feel better and that your health will improve. 

When our government has spent so much money on vaccines, is there enough for the really important things?

This World Health Organization/FAO report - Diet, Nutrition and the Prevention of Chronic Disease - suggests that in the years ahead 3 Billion people will perish as a direct result of poor nutrition. Some of these will be Canadians. 

http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/publications/trs916/en/

"This report examines the science base of the relationship between diet and physical activity patterns, and the major nutrition-related chronic diseases. Recommendations are made to help prevent death and disability from these diseases. These population nutrient intake and physical activity goals should contribute in the development of regional strategies and national guidelines to reduce the burden of nutrition related diseases: obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, several forms of cancer, osteoporosis and dental disease.

The recommendations contained in this report are based on the examination and analysis of the best available evidence and the collective judgement of a group of international experts, brought together by WHO and the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO). The report was formally launched in Rome on 23 April 2003, by WHO Director General Dr Gro Harlem Brundtland, and FAO Director General Jacques Diouf."

Theft of vaccines by privilege by the elite, and private clinics is bad. Theft of the health of a whole country or planet - there is no word to describe....

You know, my neighbour, who is about 45, healthy lifestiyle, wife and kid, is on a ventalator? Will be for another week.

And his liver is practically shut down.

Thats at least 3 weeks on a ventalator if he comes throught it.

Have you any comprehension at all?  Have you ANY idea of the cost of that? He is off work for at least a month, if he lives, and we (taxpayers) have to pay for his time in hospital.   It is a hell of a lot of money.   So if that one guy had been identified and vaccinated in time, would there have been a saving?

And that is only 1 of the over 200 severe cases last week in BC alone.

Normal flu season doesn't properly start till about the middle of November or early december. By the way, many thousands of people get the normal flu shot every year too.  You think they shouldn't?

I know you are not interested in vaccination for yourself  and you cannot get your head around the concept.

But in the real world, a sore arm for a couple of days is a hell of a lot better than even a mild flu.

For people who get vaccinated, remember that it does not make you invincible right away.

It takes about 10 days for your body to build up antibodys. So keep away from sneezy people until then.

Ontario has expanded its program:

Chronic conditions : People with the following chronic conditions are more at risk of developing complications from H1N1 infection if they do get sick :

• Heart disease
• Kidney disease
• Asthma and chronic lung disease
• Liver disease
• Diabetes
• Serious obesity
• Diseases or treatments that affect the immune systems such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, organ transplants
• Blood disorders
• Neurological disorders
• Medical conditions where people have difficulty swallowing or are at risk of choking
• Children and adolescents' medical conditions treated for long periods with acetylsalicylic acid (Aspirin®).

(Serious obesity would be a BMI > 40.)

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/ccom/flu/

Brian wrote,

"But in the real world, a sore arm for a couple of days is a hell of a lot better than even a mild flu."

Brian,

In the real world, in Ontario, 

....the government found $300 M+ for a failed American wart vaccine and promoted it with a cancer fear campaign. There are only 400 deaths from cervical cancer annually in all of Canada. 

http://www.pharmalot.com/2007/03/merck_lobbyist_worked_for_cana/

...welfare rates have remained at about the same low level for years.

http://www.ocap.ca/rtr/diet/petition [80]

... the government blocks citizen access to a $200/mo. program for a food allowance for the elderly, poor, disabled, moms and kids.

http://update.ocap.ca/node/29 [81]

And things are not looking good for the poor in B.C. either. 

http://www.raisetherates.org/index.html [82]

Brian writes,

"Have you any comprehension at all?  Have you ANY idea of the cost of that?" 

With all sympathy for yourself and your unfortunate neighbour, Brian, the issue is larger than the individual cases you state. 

http://www.rabble.ca/comment/1081926/Theres-not-much-risk [83]

How much money would we save through good food and prevention? How many lives would we save? See WHO report above. 

Priorities??

Prioritys?   With flu, it is real simple.  You vaccinate against it or you treat it.   Flu happens every year.  It is simple economics.

This one is killing much younger people.

Which is cheaper?

My neigbbour mid 40's will have at least 3 weeks on a ventilator in hospital.   Price that out. How much does that cost?

You do not comprehend basic economics. It is cheaper to vaccinate than to fill the hospitals with flu victims.

They are 1/3 full now and it is has barely started.

I do not give a rat's crap for  your "sympathy".

I didn't get the flu.  And I used my neighbour as an example of the economics.

You are still trying to convince people not to get the vaccine.

I am trying to show others that your economics is deeply flawed.

I know you will never be convinced.

I have no idea what motivates you to do this.

If you are really worried about first nations with tb, and other cronic illnesses,  concider that the flu enhances these illnesses and will diliver the final nail in a lot of cases.

Private schools get priority too:
 http://tinyurl.com/y97vmgu

Brian, it is unfortunate that you are not reading my links and info before posting replies.

Theft is theft, whether it comes through private schools, hockey teams, or political hacks who have sold Canadians' health to pharma propaganda - or who are in collusion with other nations.

http://www.spp.gov/pdf/nap_flu07_factsheet.pdf

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/The-North-American-Leaders-Summit [87]

"...we reiterated our abiding commitment to the common safety and security of our people. In response to the H1N1 pandemic, our three governments have worked closely, collaboratively and responsibly. With science as our guide, we resolved to continue taking all necessary preparations and precautions to prepare for the upcoming flu season and protect the health of our people. And this challenge transcends borders and so must our response."

- Stephen Harper at the North American Leaders Summit

I think whatever Harper knows about health and science he memorized for REACH FOR THE TOP.

The Auditor General says flu planning is itself a disaster:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2178603 [88]

Regarding TB vs. H1N1 stats worldwide, look here

http://www.dump.com/2009/11/03/mortality-over-300-days-h1n1-swine-flu-in-perspective/ [89]

Unionist's thread THE KILLER NEVER LEFT should prompt us to ask, Why is there any TB in Canada?

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/aboriginal-issues-and-culture/tb-explodes-northern-manitoba-reserves [90]

It's your money: what did the government do with it?

From Jackie-mo's link:

Um............................no, you are not "high-risk" because you live in a boarding school.  Risk is determined by the presence of pre-existing conditions such as I listed in my previous post (asthma, pregnancy, etc).

Seems that people in positions of privilege make up their own rules as they go along.

Sineed wrote,

"Seems that people in positions of privilege make up their own rules as they go along."

Yes, I agree... they do. 

What has the government done with Canada's health money?

It is more  unfortunate that you cannot answer ANYof my questions.  Anyone can post a bunch of outdated statistics.

It is much harder to answer a specific question when your case is extremely weak.

I presume that is your reason for avoiding them?

It is a discussion board but you are not discussing anything.

Rather than links, how about explaining your thought processes?

I AM curious about them.

Why do you think hospitilization and treatment is more effective than vaccination for viral infection?

If you are going to make up numbers and attribute them to the WHO why not go even bigger?

"This World Health Organization/FAO report - Diet, Nutrition and the Prevention of Chronic Disease - suggests that in the years ahead 300 million trillion people will perish as a direct result of poor nutrition."

About 56.5 million die a year. Even if all of then died as a direct result of poor nutrition, which is beyond ridiculous, it would still take 53 years to reach 3 billion.

Hello Trevor.

Brian, if you aren't reading my posts we must disregard your replies.

As neither of you have much concern over Canadian health or misuse of the nation's money, is it correct to conclude that you are not, in fact, progressives?

Incredible logic.

But you are wrong.  I am one of the 700 billion Canadians who the WHO considers to be progressive.

Is that 56 mill as in 56 with six zeros appended to it? My GOD! That's a holocaust every 365 days! Disease is but one of the more common effects of malnutrition and directly related to a lack of caloric intake, enough to keep body and soul together.

Thirdworld capitalism is a colossal failure. A monstrous ideology.

I've never gotten the impression you were one of the 8 trillion Americans who think the WHO is a tool of those cheese-eating surrender monkeys in Europe.

Searching for budget information at the Ministry of Health and Long Term Care in Ontario, I did not see any links re pandemic or flu preparedness.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/default.aspx

Entering the search term pandemic I found this - from 2008.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/emu/pan_flu/pan_fl... [100]

From the doc:

"The OHPIP continues to be improved and enhanced year after year - building a system of pandemic health readiness in Ontario.

The 2008 edition of OHPIP provides more detail on surveillance and reporting systems to monitor a pandemic; occupational health and safety and infection prevention and control measures; the timing, use and availability of antiviral treatment; and the organization and delivery of influenza-related primary care services, including assessment, treatment and referral services. The 2008 edition also includes revisions to the planning guidelines for laboratories, paediatric services and long-term care homes. As well, OHPIP 2008 provides new chapters on planning and managing certain critical health services during a pandemic, including the services required by people with chronic kidney disease or acute kidney injury, and the province's blood supply."

Plans went a-gley?

How much did it cost?

What is the government doing with Canadians' health money?

Eight trillion Americans? Shirley you jest?

I have expressed concerns about the WHO, because of its business allegiances. The report I linked to is about food and so would have minimal influence by and input from corporations.

The feds are running the show on this.

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/index-eng.php

All ministries have pandemic planning, but they might only have them posted on the Ontario Gov intranet.

Give or take a few zeroes.

good night everybody!

VIDEO: Vaccine Coverup "What you are doing to this generation of children" by RFK Jr.

This is not to provoke a flame war with anyone. And we don't expect that the anti-conspiracy theorists/non-truthers should be compelled to refute any and all of what FRK Jr says are lies damned lies each and every single thing he had to say in Washington recently.

You Rock Tigana, thankx for the linx.

Brian, I never said that. 

If everyone had better nutrition, people would not get sick nearly so often, and Health Canada and its provincial branches would not need so much of our tax money.

But that would mean fewer jobs....

And RevolutionPlease, thank you - please follow the trail and keep asking questions. 

Link to accompany Fidel's RFK Jr videos -

http://www.pandemicfluonline.com/?p=510

From the article:

"The government’s own records show that it has failed to do the science necessary to put to rest reasonable concerns about vaccines. If the scientists had simply done their job rather than covering their tracks, there would be no controversy today. Instead, the government cannot even provide a definitive figure of the number of cases of autism among American children — a number obviously critical to any serious scientific investigation — and yet expects the public to believe that it has ruled out any link between vaccines and an illness it does not even track."

What has the government done with your health care money?

The prevention of morbidity and mortailty through simple, inexpensive, safe and wholesome means, is no laughing matter.

I think it is very sad that our health care system mugs us, then offers us bus fare - for that is what seems to be happening to Canadians.

But going by what we read in this thread, to some "progressives"  this is fine sport.

I believe that the entire health system is robbing us - not just those who are jumping the queue.

Ennir wrote:

"If we assume that what is presented to us as a "health care system" is in fact so we have already been deluded by double speak, there is little in our system that promotes health and much that promotes medications that are often harmful and could be avoided altogether by changes in one's lifestyle."

It is time to wake up.

The Ontario government has a health budget of $40B or so every year.

That's equal to the entire personal fortune of Bill Gates. Every year.

To see how much money that is, please go to

http://lcurve.org

What is the government doing with your health care money?

Thank you Tigana for that link, of course you know that Robert Kennedy Jr. is a nut case, no doubt he believes in aliens and the end of the world in December of 2012 and therefore we can freely disregard what he has to say, that Kennedy clan they are on the fringe and always up to some kind kookiness.

Seriously, I read the Simpsonwood papers in Rolling Stone a few years back and I am glad to see this is an issue that he is not dropping. 

You HAVE disregarded my replys from day 1.  You never answered a single question.  Putting up outdated and often totally irrelevent links is not replying.

It is more like attention defecit. Who the hell is we? How many tigana's are posting here? I bet only 5 or 6 of us even read this thread. You can conclude whatever you like based on thatever you want. Tea leaves, random links.

Progressives? Is that a club? Are you certain YOU are progressive?  Are you slightly concerned, deeply concerned or weighed down with concern? 

Are you concerned enough to factor in the cost of about 200 extra people in hospital (just in BC) all of  last week? 

If you are not concerned enough to cost out your theory, then I suggest your concern is a pretty self indulgant one.

Brian, the cartoon above was inspired by you. Thanks.

http://www.rabble.ca/comment/1083127/%C2%A0-What-has-government

The health care system is broken. It profits from us being sick. The laws of biology will benefit us in the long run. 

VIDEO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J19cwiPWONY [112]

I will not be looking at your links, sorry. This is a discussion board, not a link page.

Maybe. Dr. Butler-Jones is a well paid official spokesperson.

I think Canadians are paying for medical care that is poorer in quality than they should expect - and unneccessary.

The government would save billions in treatment of degenerative diseases, communicable diseases and more if they made sure Canadians had good food - and if pharma $olutions were not pushed.

Before we try to rescue the US health care system, we should fix our own.

"What I found in Ottawa is that I have got a lot of persuading to do because the industry, the lobbyists, they're up there all the time and telling the politicians of all parties how wonderful their drugs are, how safe their drugs are, how necessary they are and basically they spend huge amounts of money convincing politicians that. It's the same in Washington where there are more lobbyists for the pharmaceutical companies than congressmen and senators put together."

- Terence Young, MP and Drug Safety Activist

http://thetyee.ca/Books/2009/07/14/BigPharmaFight/index1.html [115]

"Medicine, as we are practicing it, is a luxury trade. We are selling bread at the price of jewels . . . Medical reforms such as limited health insurance schemes are not socialized medicine. They are the bastard forms of socialism produced by belated humanitarianism out of necessity."

- Dr. Norman Bethune

William Osler [116]

"Claude (Claude Bernard) was right : the germ is nothing, the ground is everything !"
- Louis Pasteur, to his friend, Professor Renon, who watched over him before he died, 1895

"Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food"

- Hippocrates 460 - 359 BC  

VIDEO: Bell Tolling for the Swine Flu History and scientific data pertaining to "A type flu"

by Sister Teresa Forcades

So don't sit back and let other people tell you what the truth is and how and what to think of private for-profit pharmaceutical companies playing around with flu viruses and with public health at stake.

Rat Jelly

by Michael Ondaatje

Cartoon from:  http://www.thestar.com/comment

I believe Taliban detainees should be vaccinated. I am disappointed they are not receiving the medical attention they should.

I know there has been some outrage about this, however the detainess rights need to be addressed.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/afghanistan/article/724077--flu-shots-for-taliban-suspects-spark-fury [120]

I agree, if they have athsma, or any of the priority conditions listed then they should be vaccinated early. It does not really matter what Harper thinks of the civil war in afganastan OR the geneva convention. (I read your link).

Canada signed on to respect human rights. If Harper decides to ignore it then he is no better than a war criminal.

 Perhaps the conservatives want us to unsign the geneva convention?

"Our mission is to help the people of Canada maintain and improve their health."

- Health Canada

'H1N1 a dud pandemic, Ont. official says

The huge investments governments made in swine flu pandemic planning might not have been justified, an Ontario health official said Thursday.

"It's really not causing — and is not going to cause and nowhere has caused — significant levels of illness or death," said Dr. Richard Schabas, Ontario's former chief medical officer of health.

"But governments moved ahead regardless. They ramped up their response, spent a huge amount of money on vaccines and other things. I'm not sure the $1.5 billion includes the cost of new ventilators, the cost of Tamiflu stockpiles … the huge investment that's been put into planning for what has ultimately turned out to be, from a pandemic perspective, a dud."

---snip---

Originally, it was estimated a single dose of the vaccine would cost $16. That cost has now risen to $30. The increasing cost is attributed in part to an unexpected surge in demand late last month.

By the time the immunization campaign is complete, the cost could exceed $2 billion.'

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/12/h1n1-vaccine-costs.html

$2B is quite a chunk of the $15B or so of the Ontario MoHLTC budget that actually goes towards patient care.

As for the whereabouts of the rest of the $40B annual budget of the MoHLTC - your guess is as good as mine. 

It's all a conspiracy theory! 

Nice way to end the thread.