Tamils Blocc University Part 2

It's not fair to address posters by name when they're no longer allowed to post in the thread, R_P. 

Otherwise, your point is well-taken.

Who is Stoccholm (sic) ?

he aint? o sry then

edit- Caissa dont worry

Years ago, a group of people wanted to shut down Bay Street and King Street in downtown Toronto.  The group would start and Nathan Phillip's Square at City Hall, then go down to Bay and Kind to block traffic.  The former Police Chief, Julian Fantino, would have none of it.  No one is going to shut down business.  The riot police were set up to prevent the march.

If the Tamil Canadians were to do the same, they would just sneak out of nowhere and sit-down in the intersection.  The police would not be ready for them.  Tamil Canadians know how to protest.

a:  That was Fantino

b:  Bay and King is the heart of the financial district.  These would be STOCKBROKERS, and BANKERS you'd be keeping from their duties. Good God man, think of the chaos!

We want to get the message heard and Canada to act, not financially rob Canada. If the Tamil Canadian were to do that, as a Tamil Canadian I would be the first to be pissed. People are already in trouble finacially, last thing we need is to let the whole world keep away from investing in Toronto or using that as a negative image to not to invest in rest of Canada.

And to let you guys know, there is another protest being worked out for tomorrow.

I hope you understand I was being facetious...even sarcastic.

Like the capital of Sweden was, eh?

I think that we may well see more protests over the next while than we have seen in the past as various groups of people battle for public opinion. Today I think there is a greater disconnect with Canada's official positions and enough widespread distrust to not only generate protest but to make such protest worthwhile as observers are more likely to be open to the idea that on any given issue the Canadian government is not taking the right position.

This particular situation is heartbreaking as so many people are suffering. There is a known unforgiving nasty streak in our national government that is prepared to ignore human suffering if the agenda does not fit with the Conservative Party world view. This government seems to have little trouble with collective punishment.

In this case, as in most, if not all others, there are extremists fighting in the name of people who are suffering and they have tactics we do not support. But to show so little sympathy for the plight of innocent people is inhuman. We have seen this in Palestine, in the case of Oamr Khadr and now here. It is time ordinary Canadians reject a government unable stop judging innocent people for the actions of others who just happen to be of the same so-called group (as defined as much by our government as anyone else). we must also accept that not everyone has the luxury of behaving exactly as we would prefer when they are desperate.

Perhaps the greatest local injustice is not that Canadians are upset by the numbers of people blocking the highway, but that they are not standing there with them. Since when is a cease-fire an unreasonable request when thousands are being killed?

Canada as a nation likes to get involved. At times we take decisions to support or oppose issues we know little about and ought not to be involved in. But if we are to draw the line somewhere, can it not be at the murder of civilians? Is this not one human issue that is truly universal and beyond local interpretation and reality? What is being asked of the government is to express an opinion - not a show of force- and that this opinion be a request for a cessation to the killing.I hardly see why this is controversial.

Why can't we refrain from judgement of both sides including an obsession with the presence of a Tiger flag which is a demonstration of an individual freedom to express- just long enough to ask for the killing to stop? Do we not have the right to stand out in favour of peace without being labelled responsible for the expression of a person standing beside us, who may agree with us on one thing but have many other differences?

And everything I have said applies equally well in every other area of Canadian foreign policy-- including the situation of the Palestinians whose slaughter was excused by our present government due to the existance of extremists there or the disgusting treatment of a child as apparent revenge for the behaviour of others. I did not feel any less compassion for those who died on September 11th because I am aware that in the United States there exist extremists who would kill those they disagree with along with anyone else in the way.

There is something wrong with a debate that discusses not whether Canadians should be out with our fellow Canadians to show opposition to killing but whether we should tolerate a highway or street closure for a brief time so that the point can be made.

thirisuj, I want to thank you for the updates you provide here. The firsthand descriptions you gave in the previous thread were very illuminating and just the type of thing we won't find in the MSM. I hope you can get some type of result with these protests. And others have said, I think these protests have proven that Tamils' organizational skills are bar none in terms of mobilization and spontaneity.

Excellent point and when people hear others say   "why do insert name bring their problems to Canada"  such a standard response should be given, as well as a couple of others. Hell, if you want to get technical, the whole country is populated because of problems from elsewhere which are being imposed upon First Nations. Only now they are being falsely portrayed as the problem too.

The only freakin problem is  privilege that excuses itself everytime.

Wow, I was feeling really cynical [guess the moronic commenters at The Star do that to me] but booya! 'Way to go Rabblers.

I was pondering away here, wondering why one person in a Mexican prison for a drug offense and one American being caned in Singapore for vandalism were splattered all over the news for weeks as "ZOMG ABUSED CITIZENS!" while  protest for months about wholesale slaughter of relations by taxpaying Canadian citizens, was completely ignored. Uh, far be it from me to point out the "colour barrier".

The whole point of "democracy" is dissent. And bless 'em, the Tamils are gloriously dissenting with Canada's foreign policy. Good on 'em I say, for showing the rest of us, the light! At least one community in this fair land knows how to fight for democracy and rise above the chronic whingers that sit around doing nothing but complaining about the "terrorists" on the 6 o'clock news. Uh "terrorists"? Handing out leaflets and waving banners is "terrorism" but bombing schools and hospitals is NOT? I really must get out more. That leap of logic from the commuting clueless is far beyond my comprehensive capabilities.

What on earth do the traffic complainers want the police to do? Taser? Shoot? Tear gas the protesters? Beat them into submission? These protests are happening all over democratic countries. It's pretty hard to beat someone into submission who is traumatized by the deaths of their relations.

Uhm did someone say, "NEVER AGAIN!"?

I don't think asking Canada to publicly demand a cease-fire or to scrap it out at the UN is too much to ask.

I did however, come out of this with a great new t-shirt I want made. "Louis Riel was Inappropriately Rude. Be Rude for Your Rights Today!"

I hope you are not too anti-capital to market that.

I'd be interested in one.

Caissa, you're clearly unhappy here.  You can't stand anything the moderators do or say.  If you want to leave, please go, but quit posting these off-topic, passive-aggressive little snarky remarks all over the place.  And if you attack R_P again for his spelling, I'll be helping you with that.

I'm into Creative Commons. Just wander off and make your local t-shirt establishment happy with a custom order

Another way of looking at this:

Canadians are said to believe in Peace, Order and Good Government. The three go together. It would be disfunctional to not have Order when you have Good Government. But in the absence of Good Government, it is disfunctional to expect Order. In the case of the Tamils they don't have Peace in their former country or Good government in their new country so what's with the expectation of Order?

Well said, Sean.

I think, Snert, that a whole bunch of us would also be on University tying up traffic with a counter-demonstration.

Snert--Maybe it's this thing called "logic" and lack thereof without leaping tall heaps of off-topic rhetoric that is confusing me.

What does "an llegal immigration protest" have to do with the Canadian Government's non-responsiveness to an ongoing genocide?

Or are you underhandedly making the racist assertion that the Canadian citizens who are presently protesting are somehow "illegal aliens"?

Or are you just assuming that "illegal aliens" are simply so stupid that they'd show up to be arrested at a protest thus saving the immigration authorities the bother of hunting them down to detain them?

Snert--you've been...

Snert, I cannot judge if the point has been made (that would be up to the people expressing it) but I'd be more confident if there were was greater recognition of the issue by the Government of Canada.

I can't help but notice how often you see little support for issues that affect new Canadians by those of us born here. A form of isolation? I'd prefer if more Canadians showed concern about the positions our government holds. After all, this is about the government of Canada's position-- it is OUR government. Why are the Tamils the only ones who care- (or on another day and another issue another group)? If Canadians do not take an interest in what our government does we will lose the principle of responsible government.

There are timesw when we need to look at the big picture and the disruption of a highway for a short time paels beside the issues the protest is about.

As far as other protests- I am aware that there are laws against disruptions such as this. I am sayign common sense can lead us to choices about which oens to come down hard on and which ones not to. Same would be said if the Maple Leafs won a Stanley Cup-- people would spill out and block roads and not be arrested just for that. Life and death surely rates better than that.

And when it comes to offensive demonstrations, I'm with Michelle. They should not be censored, they should be opposed through opposite expressions of freedom. It is not as if you can get that many people out on somethign that does not matter to people. I'd like to think that a person out to demonstrate against illegal immigration would not block a highway out of fear of being run over by accident because of being unnoticed and alone.

I don't know if your comment was directed at me.  Don't worry.  I'm back from shopping.  I can accept that you are a facetiousist so long you took the Sarcastic Oath.

There was a discussion on CBC Radio just after 2 p.m. Eastern about whether or not protests such as the ones done by the Tamil-Canadians actually work.  Personally, I think it worked this time.  Sure, the pissed off a lot of people.  Their issue is front-page news in the tree-print.  They are no longer on page X29 after the classifieds.

Do nice protests work?  Or do people need to disobedient protests to get their points heard?

If you want to hear the CBC radio 1 discussion, I think you can go to www.cbc.ca/radio and go to some button that says Listen Live.  Just click a radio station that is airing this discussion at 2 p.m. local time.

The whole point of "civil disobedience" is to BE "disobedient" because being "obedient" is not working. That's what happens in democracies when protests and movements fall on deaf ears.

Anyone remember the 60's and 70's? Hello out there!

Thanks for the link Skinny Dipper:-)

Nice protests only work with overwhelming numbers and if the individual against whom you are protesting believes it is in his/her best interests to do what you wish.

I assume "work" is defined as "achieving your goals."

Seems the question answered itself, then! Clearly, it worked -- it started the debate that the many "polite" protests did not manage to start.

"One law for the lion and the ox is oppression" - Blake

Even then--not always. The legal anti-war protests were HUGE and did precisely...

....nothing.

Of course I think that's what the second part of your statement referred to. It only works if the other side is agreeing--in which case, it's a march or rally, not a protest

This protest obviously accomplished something. Even here on babble, no one was talking about the genocide at all besides thirusuj and thanks - how we are into thread #2 with a  multitude of babblers interested in the issue. It was on the front page of the Globe and Canadians are paying attention.

However, I hope it is widely noted as well how little Iggy's word counts for. Promises to raise an issue in parliament  really mean that he will not show up in parliament, as he lacks any sort of moral courage. I am thinking his "understanding"of the Tamil issue will be similar to his concern over what happened at Qana.

YouTube Ignatiff

Jack Blathering [30]

Welcome to Apartheid [31]

I believe we've done this before-- called "reservations" and "genocide". Seems I've seen this sort of film clip on "happy detentions centres" somewhere before?

Not at all, thanks. I just chose a fictitious (I hope) organization that I expected many here would not agree with. It's easy to approve of someone you agree with shutting down University for several days, but what about someone you don't? That's the measure of your committment to the principle.

By you and your frankly odious accusations? Really. You clearly think a lot of your "wit".

Oh yeah. The hypocrisy canard once again. Do you ever think of anything other than making up straw men, say something with acumen, subltey or nuance?

I don't post here very often, as I find most of the points I would otherwise make wouldn't really add much to what are usually interesting discussions.

I would only express bewilderment that the debates that I've been seeing are over whether or not people should have obstructed traffic for a few hours in response to extensive civilian deaths in an armed conflict.

Bizarre isnt it? Well it's simple: That is a convenient way for people to express their xeonophobic racist fears without revealing the true depth of their paranoid racist dellusions.

It worked, even Canwest out here in BC reported on  what was happening in Sri Lanka and  their protests for the first time in a long time.

You know snert you might actually have gotten a civilized response if you hadn't deliberately tried to couch your bigoted agenda.

Most folks aren't terribly fond of PETA, for example, however that is NOT the sort of protest you brought up--you deliberately flaunted your bigotry in everyone's face by asking your question about "illegal aliens".

So don't whinge when you get pwned on it. As for wits? You'd need to come more than half-armed, as the old saw goes.

You could also have just asked "Would you support a group you do NOT agree with doing the same to garner the attention of the government?" and then stopped. You didn't do that, either.

My answer would have been YES as democracy cannot exist without dissent. Only dictatorships can exist without acknowledging dissent. Since our government tends to ignore "legal dissent" obviously some form of illegal dissent is the only option, left. I'm not surprised in the least after months of protesting, by what happened. I'm very impressed that these citizens are as peaceable about it as they are.

"Shut it down for several days"? Uh, how about reading the news articles? Try a bit here and there. Oh and I've been in a number of protests that shut down Bay Street on quite a number of occassions [anti-war, poverty etc--it's a common protest target], and nothing to do with this. Suddenly it's just so appalling because a particular group did it?

Anyone who reads what I write would be well aware that I will not obey unjust laws and that I believe there are times when breaking the law is justified. The legal system should exist for benefit of the people. The people should not exist for the benefit of legal system.

Gandhi, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Louis Riel, Nelson Mandela Leonard Pelletier [the climbing of Mt Rushmore, Alcatraz occupation], and the Bolivian 'water rebellion' etc etc etc, and many of us regular folk have broken the law in the cause of social justice.

I just love how self-righteous some people get when an activist or group advocates that as a legitimate protest tactic as if democracy would suddenly go spinning our of control like a yo-yo with a broken string because "everybody would be doing it". Having squatted for protest as a housing fight amongst other "illegal acts" related to activism, I can assure frightened Canadians--that's not the case. Even in dire need, most people won't cross that line.

Oh, and I never advocate getting "permits" for anything protest-related. Yet the world is still wagging along nicely.

Huzzah!

Nothing like a straight shot through to the finish line. No extra verbiage necessary

Do me a favour? If you want to imply that I'm a racist, CC the moderators and save me a step.

Whose streets?

Sri Lankan government defends army massacre

Sonsobitches

Another Huzzah. It seems we have lost our ability to understand the concept of "shared space"...

@Fidel:

I really think too many governments are psychopathic entities who think the rest of us can't line up two brain cells in a row.

"Uh we are not killing anyone or bombing hospitals. Honest. really. We wouldn't DO that. Oh...dead bodies? It's not us--it's them. [points other way] But NO you can't send anyone neutral from the media or Amnesty International or whoever to prove it. We never lie about those sorts of things."

Thanks for the article. This situation just keeps getting more and more appalling.

Sad, but probably true. How many people here marched against the Iraq War in 2003?  Or in any major demonstration in a downtown metropolitan city?  I know I did.  I was obstructing traffic throughout downtown Toronto.  Of course, it's easier, and much less riskier, to be at a protest with tens of thousands of people, with the support of at least two major political parties, and the backing of many activist groups across the political spectrum, then to stand with a few people fighting for an issue that few people know about.  Frankly, watching the Tamils made me wish we had lefties with half that much guts - and I include myself in that sweeping generalization.

Here

is a letter printed in The Globe today:

Really? A pregnant woman? Can we get any more melodramatic? Hopefully the next pregnant woman that writes in and the Grope publishes it out of a sense of journalistic duty will also have cancer.

Why is it melodramatic? I would imagine a lot of women in her situation would be worried if there were stuck for five hours.

Melodrama is when actors exaggerate movement and emotion often with crude appeal. A pregnant woman stuck in traffic hits that definition with uncanny accuracy.

Apparently this point has not been made effectively so I will say it again: A PREGNANT WOMAN CAN GET STUCK IN TRAFFIC WITH OR WITHOUT A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEING THEIR FAMILIES AND FRIENDS MURDERED ENGAGING IN PEACEFUL PROTEST.

Like, for example, Cueball's horrible experience of being delayed by a film crew.

Amen. Do you remember when one of the anti-war protest that stopped at Moss Park? I had this overwhelming urge to jump the g-d fence and grab it for housing. My suggestion utterly appalled the "housing activists" standing around me so I figured I'd be the only one idiotic enough to attempt it.

I've always regretted that I didn't do it that day because it was an obvious anti-war, pro-housing target.

For once there were more protesters than riot police. A situation that doesn't occur very often. I will always regret that decision.

Protests that stopped Bay Street? Iraq War protest. Afghan war Protest. OCAP Snake March, Mass Panhandle on Bay etc etc. I never figured out why the War Resisters didn't flood it.

It's pretty common to grab up Bay Street since it's a financial target.

Right. And right now Jameson is cut off you'd be caught in the gridlock ANYWAY for a few hours. And nowhere does it say exactly WHY a pregnant person felt the overwhelming need to be on the Gardiner on a Sunday night knowing there was a road block since she states she was aware of the situation previous to this drive???

Am I missing something here?

Uh, traffic reports/news+radio/TV, anyone?

"I support the right to protest, provided it respects the public peace."

Memo to everyone: protests are now to be held at Centennial Park in Etobicoke on Sunday mornings after church for a duration of 30 minutes maximum

More melodrama: 'alone in my car on a Sunday night'.  Did the Tamils forcibly remove her male chaperone and body guard from the car before she set off on her oh-so-brave errand down the Gardiner?

Never got into Moss Park.  I actually was never much of a protestor as I didn't get political until after I had a full-time job in the corporate world.  The one thing that can be said, I think, is that all tactics, weather marching, civil disobedience, obstructing traffic, non-payment of income taxes, ought to be evaluated on weather or not they are likely to have a positive effect in terms of achieving political objectives.  All of these things inconvenience people.  That is only an issue if it looks like the tactic may fail, in which case, you may want to worry about backlash from it's failure.  I'm not certain weather or not that can be said of the Tamils, who have moved the discussion on a national level, and got a bit of an audience with some political folks.

ROFLCOPTERS!  What memo???? There was a memo?

Don't get me started on the Santa Claus parade.

Never got into Moss Park.  I actually was never much of a protestor as I didn't get political until after I had a full-time job in the corporate world.  The one thing that can be said, I think, is that all tactics, weather marching, civil disobedience, obstructing traffic, non-payment of income taxes, ought to be evaluated on weather or not they are likely to have a positive effect in terms of achieving political objectives.  All of these things inconvenience people.  That is only an issue if it looks like the tactic may fail, in which case, you may want to worry about backlash from it's failure.  I'm not certain weather or not that can be said of the Tamils, who have moved the discussion on a national level, and got a bit of an audience with some political folks.