Was the rabble.ca downgrade...er, uh, "upgrade"...worth it?

There are two sides to this: rabble.ca and babble. It is all one software. I've seen only compliments about the new rabble.ca, so complaints about babble must be looked at in that context.

For babblers, it's all about babble. Not so for the majority of rabble.ca users, I assume. 

Yeah, it's been better for rabble, for babble . . . I long for the good old days.  ;  )

Rabble looks better; Babble not so much. Do we know whether Babble or other parts of Rabble get more traffic? I must admit I rarely visit other parts of Rabble.

I'm rather certain babble gets the most traffic, but much of it would be repeat hits from the regulars. I'd guess that rabble.ca sees many more unique individual users than babble does.

Can anyone confirm? 

Everybody seems to love the new rabble, but there are some aspects I find less than satisfactory.

The font is too small, and it's boring old Arial.

The quantity of commentary has increased, but the quality has not improved. Currently the main featured article is by David fucking Orchard!

Having the "Active Discussions on Babble" on the Rabble front page is a mistake, IMHO, because it is apparently unmoderated (computer-generated) and beyond editorial control. This would allow a right-wing troll to start a whole slew of babble threads with disgusting titles, and these would be displayed on Rabble's front page. And as far as I know, babble thread titles still cannot be amended.

Also, Rabble is often far behind babble in bringing news and commentary to the attention of readers.

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

I've found it to be a lot of extra work, and the format as it stands now is harder to moderate.  This is something that will be substantially improved hopefully before Xmas, but certainly by the end of Jan. (I hope) 

It's really interfering with my flow, and I find I'm posting less.  One thing I've found about being a moderator is that I started posting fewer of my own personal interest comments and opinions, because I'm too busy with mod stuff.  (Michelle manages both very well somehow)  With the new format, I find I'm making hardly any of my own posts and my modding is more terse. 

Yeah, I join with people in having a hard time getting into the flow of the new order.  It does remain a work in progress though.

In terms of tag lines, they'll be going any time now, but it's being put off because we're all enjoying M. Spector's so much.

I feel the same way, Oldgoat. My posting has dwindled quite a bit since the relaunch, which I've blamed on freelance deadlines, new contracts at work, and the holidays, though I think much of that is misplaced. It's been my failure to sync to the new software, or to put the time aside to figure out the new features and mourn the old.

It is growing on me though, and I am lurking constantly.

Tag- you're it.

I find that I don't try and post links anymore and the decrease in links is noticeable.  Being able to access other peoples searches by a click in the thread was one of my favourite things about babble. A serious downgrade in usability unfortunately.

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 Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists

I think those are two good descriptions: The board doesn't "flow" in the same manner it used to and it's difficult to "sync" up, or connect, with discussions.

I've gotta believe posting is down (although it would be interesting to see the actual metrics).

I am gald that the red colour was retained.  But, the site doesn't feel welcoming anymore...it looks too much like every other plain vanilla board out there.  The "old babble" was unique in that respect.

By the way, what is the posting rate since the New elbbaB™ was launched relative to the posting rate pre-launch?

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

I miss the Green Man emoticon.

Ha!  Me, too!

I miss even more the rollieyes emoticon.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Beautiful.

I've saved that link.

Thanks!

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Yes, the upgrade was worth it.  Rabble moved from legacy software that is no longer supported or developed for to software that is continually coming out with new features and lots of developers work with.

Many come to babble to moan and criticize, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that people will moan and criticize the new rabble.

I would agree that looking at babble in isolation that the new system is not as usable or feature rich (or unique, for that matter).  However i think the problem is not the software, it's that rabble management simply doesn't adequately value babble.  Converting to drupal could've made babble a lot better.  And this could still happen--but the management would have to actually put the emphasis on improving babble. 

Is there an answer to Sven's question?

 Sveen wrote:

By the way, what is the posting rate since the New elbbaB™ was launched relative to the posting rate pre-launch?

Is the New Elbbab's™ current software actually "supported" by someone? I ask because I have seen precious little evidence.

There's no point having software that can be tuned and tweaked to perfection if there's nobody around who is actually willing to do it for free or to pay someone else to do it.

In the "old" Babble, Babblers could put a link to their home page into their Babble profile and others could then go to that Babbler's home page.  Anyone know why viewing Babbler profiles is no longer available?  Or, maybe I can do that and I just don't know how?
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Impressionistically, there seems to be a decrease in posting at babble, EM and BnR. I wonder if posting at any of these sites follows the rhythms of the year.

That is an interesting observation.

My guess is that a lot of people are just hunkering down and worrying about what's happening with their own jobs, their own mortgages, their own consumer debt, etc. and not really in the mood to focus on solving "world problems" (like what's happening in Gaza, global warming, etc., etc.).  Obviously, those "world problems" are not going to go away...but the political will to address them may be diminished for a while.

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Expressionistically, I would say that I often find myself frustrated with the new babble and impatient at the speed of sorting things out.  However, it is what it is.  There are still more refinements to come.

I miss my old profile, and my picture.   If I click on someone's profile, there is a spot where I can see what personal info they have chosen to enter, including things like occupation and personal interests.  I have no idea if non mods can do this.  I'll have to log in in a sock puppet account sometime and see.  There's not much point in having that if no one can see it.

One of the things I really liked about the old TAT was that as a moderator I could keep an eye on potential problems and the way the threads were going by being able to see the first few lines of every thread.  It allowed for a much more effecient use of  moderating time, and I could intervene if things were getting particularly pissy. There's way too many threads going to be able to track every one now.  Also, if I have to read a lot of stuff I may not find otherwise interesting, this crappy font doesn't help, and is made worse as my less than perfect vision is subject to eye strain.

If your sockpuppet is successful, please let us know how you did it, cuz I don't appear able to read someone's profile (and a link to a Babbler's home page was a nice resource).

It's one of the "blessings" of age, oldgoat.  After I hit 40, my eyesight noticeably diminished in quality.  So, I, too, if find the micro-font tiring on the eyes.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Ok, I clicked on your profile sven, and all I can see is a list of threads you've posted to.

As for as the profiles, where people list gender, occupation, interests etc., this doesn't seem to be publicly available.  This strikes me as less than useful, as Michelle and I for the most part don't really look at that.  Also, most people's are blank, because in the new babble we reduced the mandatory fields you needed to fill out to register.  This stuff of course should be voluntary.

Now I think I'll set about trolling, and see how long it takes Michelle to ban  this account.

hahahahaha. Oldgoat McSockpuppet, living up to your name.

Okay.  That's good--at least in so far as confirming that I wasn't missing obvious.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

I have complained about this too, oldgoat, not from a moderator's point of view, but just as a contributor unable to take the time to follow every discussion.

Yeah, there are thousands of developers actively working to make drupal better.  Go to drupal.org and you will see evidence.  There's a drupalcon in Washington DC next week that will be attended by 1300 people and hundreds more have been trying to get tickets for the last month (sold out due to capacity issues).  Go to dc2009.drupalcon.org and check ou thte attendees and you will see many Canadians are attending.  Last year in Boston i saw one of the people that (i think) is responsible for the babble upgrade.

Last year in Boston we were sharing the convention center with a printing trade show, featuring companies like Adobe and Xerox.  We had a few rooms at the top and one session i went to, at one point the presenter said, "...and we're going to put all of those companies down there out of business!!!" and everyone started cheering.

Many developers see drupal as revolutionary software.  The goal is to eliminate the web developer and eliminate the web designer.  The more enthusiastic drupallers see this as akin to the printing press.  In this digital age everyone should have the means to easily create any kind of web space they need.  Drupal's got some usability issues, which are being worked on, but it's free and universal access is highly valued (it blows everything else away in terms of multilingual interface, for example). 

So sure you've seen precious little evidence but that may not mean precious much. 

 There are lots of drupal developers all over the place.  Go to groups.drupal.org/toronto and you will see a user's group that meets every month in Toronto.  There are not a lot of postings but if you sign up for the mailing list you will see daily activity.  I've been to some of the meetings and have seen 30+ people come out.  Every year Toronto hosts a drupalcamp and last year we had 150 people out for 2 full days worth of sessions on how to use drupal (suggested donation of $20 as conference fee--food included at the conference).

If nobody wants to work on rabble for free and rabble doesn't want to pay anyone to work on it (although i doubt that's the case and i suspect you're talking out of your ass), well, what does that say, really?

We do have someone.  It's workers co-op actually which specializes in this sort of thing.  They get paid, but progress happens within everyones financial and time constraints.

Oh, what?  Are we solving world problems here?  I suspect that many people have realized that much of what happens here is endless, circular banter that doesn't actually produce any results.  I thnk babble's a great news source, and there are some good discussions, but most of the posts are from a handful of personalities looking for attention and posting the same things over and over again.

Again babble's a great new source and entertaining for some political discussion, but if people are posting here in order to solve problems, well, i think many will soon realize they can find more effective avenues for solving problems. 

Okay.  Fair enough.  Perhaps "solving world problems" should have been "discussing world problems". 

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Sure, and that's how it goes.  I think the upgrade went well.  All these things like not seeing the first few lines of TAT and the user profiles and links being black, they're all little problems that end up getting put off until the big problems get fixed.  That's just how it goes.

Again my only criticism of the way the upgrade went is that it demonstrated that babble is a lower priority compared to the other components of rabble.  Rabble and babble even is in a much better shape now then it was in before.  Ancient, unsupported software doesn't allow for too many options.

Yeah, the old software was really falling apart.  Back last fall sometime, there was some sort of catastrophic hiccup, and thousands of the older posts disappeared into the aether for no apparent reason.  That included some of my best and wittiest stuff.

Say, this may be a good time to link to THIS!

The new software is fine as long as you don't try to use any of the features.

It doesn't seem to know if its BBS or HTML. 

That is one of the better backhanded compliments I've read. 

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I still don't like it.

The so-called upgrade sucks. Posts sometimes will not display properly even after a lot of tweaking. The HTML function is a joke. [span][span][span] I always wondered why Rabble/Babble never used HTML in the first place. Even crap Blogger sites allow some kind of limited HTML. Even so, the old Babble would allow HTML commands (sometimes) so long as you enclosed them in square brackets rather than carets. Yes, I post less.

(ETA: And more important, I visit the site less.)

I get the feeling that there is a lot less traffic here.  Not sure if rabble.ca tracks that, however.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

It's a tough call.  I prefer being able to insert html as well and would prefer drupal's standard input filter (accepts html tags) to this WYSIWYG.  But html freaks people out so they switch to a WYSIWYG to avoid it.  Unfortunately no drupal WYSIWYG really does a great job.

You call this WYSIWYG??

It's anything but!

There's no way to predict how one's post will appear without hitting the Preview Comment button.

Right, well it's not so well done.  It's a WYSIWYG editor because that's what it attempts to be--instead of using strong tags around stuff to be bolded, we highlight and click the bold button.  It adds a certain amount of complexity to the whole operation and IMO it's not worth it.

Remember how the old babble would insert the [bbcode] tags around stuff when you clicked on the buttons?  And then you'd see the code in your textarea?  And once you learned the code that the buttons would insert you could just add it yourself?

Well for some reason (and i don't get it either) people think that having code in the textarea is too confusing for users.  Users, they say, like to click on the bold button and see their text go bold, not see some weird codes.

So then people go to a lot of work to build these fancy WYSIWYG editors that do all of this stuff.  And it adds so much complexity to the problem (entering text) that it gets buggy.  Sure there are no extra formatting options that the old babble didn't have (and they worked better on the old one), but at this point, with the rich text editor they have in place, they could allow for selection of different fonts, different colours, inserting and placing images, etc.  Basically a word processor in a browser window.

But so what?  We don't need a word processor in here.  We just need an easy way to add links and basic text formatting.  The WYSIWYG was overkill.

For anyone having problems when entering text, and especially if you know html or are looking to paste html, try clicking "disable rich-text".  That should give you a straight interface to enter html.

Well, wage zombie, I'm sure this will be addressed soon.  Look for an update announcement from rabble.ca here.

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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

I'm going to say something nice about Babble. I like the (new) function for posts.

The emoticon function is still bog slow on my ISP dialup connection, and I still miss the 'rolling eyes' and 'green man' smileys.

I find the new system more complicated to use and frustrating.

I disable the rich-text as it just causes problems for me when it is on. I don't need to decorate my text, I just want easy to read words and maybe a few emoticons. Who wants to change font size and colors and so on? That is for kids, not for political discussion.

I also find that I cannot edit a post when it is the start of a new thread. So if I mess up the initial post I cannot fix it.

Also users should be able to delete their own posts, at least within a certain amount of time after having made it. Like you can delete your own post up to one hour after making it. That would help to clear up double-posting issues and mistakes as well as any comments that might be deemed worthy of reconsideration.

Just my thoughts...

I like the look of the top page. But the discussion boards and interactivity is the heart of any website, and should be considered just as important as the top news pages.

I think this is because the title and so on appear on the front page of the website with links. I think the board wants to have control over the content of what appears there. Mods may want to change the title, and not have people change it back to "Fuck Psychiartry" from "Screw Pyschiatry". That whole facility is just a reflection of the TAT, so whatever popular threads people are posting on will appear there on the main page.

That is my impression of why that is. Most people have started the practice of posting twice at the top of the thread. The first post has the title, the second the actual content. This way you can still edit your content.

Haha...I just noticed that each post has a button marked 'flag as offensive'. What happens if I click it I wonder?

That button comes from the Frank Kafka Memorial Complaints Deparment at Rabble.ca. As you can see when you click on it your browser crashes.

The "flag offensive" flag is offensive. How do I flag that?

It's not confirmed, but I heard rumours that we will be adding a "flag as offensive the 'flag as offensive' button" button.

Now I'm offended by my own post. I may have to flag it. Or flog it? 

Flogging is in the pirates thread.

flagging means the mods can be more effective.

Why does the "flag as offensive" button have a checkmark? Are we trying to encourage offensive posts through this system via creating a symbolic "yes" to offensive posts...as if their reporting will be rewarded?

I know we have to act responsibly, but there's a huge temptation to 'go silly' and overuse that "flag offensive" button!

Okay, I'm going to flag Boom Boom's smiley-faced post as offensive, just to test it out. :)  I'm also curious where the e-mail gets sent!

That's interesting.  When you click the link, it takes you to an abuse form, which it tells you to use "responsibly".  And I don't like the options on the abuse form, since it has "foul language" and "adult content", neither of which are against the rules on babble.  I would like them to change "racist or sexist language" to "oppressive language" since we're concerned with more than just those two "isms".  And they could include "personal attack" as well, to replace the "foul language" and "adult content" choices.

Also, it didn't notify me by e-mail, so I'm not sure who it notifies! :)  I've sent a request for those changes.  So for now, just e-mail oldgoat and I as usual if you have a problem with a post.

Maybe the flag as offensive is just a way to make people feel better but it goes ontop of the old hill of maill in the basement, never to be seen again.

Anyway I am pleased as punch the new posts is back on the page!

The 'Flag as Offensive' tool will definitely be abused, at the very least by trolls. There was talk at one point of getting the post excerpts back, where the first few lines of every post are visible on the TAT. Seems to me this would make moderating much more easy than a flag tool.

Thanks for bringing back the 'Go to New' button!

Yeah, I'm concerned about the potential for abuse too.  But at least you have to be registered on babble in order to use it.  And I think oldgoat and I will probably have a pretty strict policy about bouncing newbies who register just to use the "flag as offensive" tool frivolously - if anything, that just might help us figure out who the trolls are earlier than waiting for them to skirt the line in their posts for the first 50 posts and then go over the line at some point after that. :)

I know I'm really asking for it here, but just to help me test, and since I can't flag my own posts, could a few of you flag some posts of mine (no one else's, just mine) so I can try out the feature and see how the e-mail notification system and such works?

Thanks!

oh - that was nice, it thanked me for my report at the top of the page!

Hmm, weird - can anyone see my "I know I'm really asking for it here" post (#65)?

I just tried the "remove post" feature from the abuse moderation area, but I still see the post...do the rest of you see it too, still?  Or is it just because I have moderator status that I can still see it but the rest of you can't?

P.S. Thanks Refuge for the tester. :)  I still need more, if others are watching.  Feel free to flag my posts so I can test and practice!

Perhaps we could change the name of the button "TIPS" or "Rat".

I flagged your #67 post Michelle, just as a test. No indication as to where it went, just at the top of the page this message: "Thank you for your report."

I could see it right after you posted (except on my computer it was post #64).  Then my internet crashed and now that I am back online it is gone!

Oh but when I am looking at posts sometimes a whole post will appear blank and then I scroll down and when I scroll up it is back in it't proper place.

Well I don't seem to be getting any notifications of offensive posts, and I test tried one myself.  (Not that that's really a bad thing)  Maybe for now people will have to stick with the old way of sticking your head out the window and shouting.

Wait, so flagging as offensive is pointless at this point?

HOT POOP!

Ahhh, but it sure feels good!

oldgoat, check out your right-hand menu.  It says "Abuse moderation".  Click on that and you'll find the posts.  I guess it doesn't e-mail us.  Which might be better, actually.

Ah, I get it!

Please accept his offer. Please, please, please.

Um, is babble broken? (This is Catchfire, btw)

Whoa!  Something is amiss.

Sure seems to be.

Is anyone seeing things here normally?

its a little bit like being drunk while surfing. -- Cueball

You have all disappeared, along with the left column: only your words remain. (Poetic justice, if you ask me...)

I thought it was just me (Maysie). babble's fucked up! And not in the normal way.

Nobody's name is showing up, I can't start a new thread, and the babble front page doesn't list all the forum topics.

Hm, but I can edit my post.

We've been invaded!!

I (being oldgoat) have alerted the technical support elves.  Gotta be out for a bit Maysie, can you watch our email in case thay get back to us?

Does babble have a staging server or a test server?  Or do the techies just experiment on the production server?  With all due respect to the good folk who keep babble running, it's kind of traditional in the industry to test changes on a different box before pushing them into production.

Do you mean industry as in all those companies shedding workers and slashing operating budgets everywhere? snerk

...and we're back. Wahoo!

 It's so weird not being able to see who is writing what. It's a whole new level of anomimity.

Correction: It WAS so weird. 

Yes, Snert, they do.  But sometimes mistakes happen when they're putting the changes live.

It's also "kind of traditional" to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a site like this.

What has happened to the rich text formatting?

As the quoted reply response formatting is all fucked up now!

Is it still messed up?  It is working for me right now.

Yep, I do not even have the formatting bar, can't make hyper link or anything. For normal posts even

Weird.  I am using IE (6 I believe) and mine is working fine.  Also just tried my Safari and it is working fine to.

Perhaps they remove your formatting capability if they are pissed at you?

Mine was working fine until yesterday.

Cutting and pasting to quote from various sources in a single post has become a very frustrating task, now. Even right-clicking the mouse (which we never had to do before), you often have to click below where you want to insert, to avoid highlighting the entire phrase preceding the insert, thereby inadvertently erasing and inserting in place of it. Using ctrl-v and then having to use the 'insert text' window is a completely unnecessary step and also weirds up the text format.

In short, cutting and pasting now involves several extra steps, sometimes that you have to correct and repeat to get it right, that were never required before - and for no apparent reason or benefit - !?

I just want my formatting bar back

That's really weird, remind.  I have no idea why that would happen.  I haven't heard from anyone else that they've lost their formatting capabilities...  Did you try the link under the window that says "enable rich-text" or "disable rich-text"?  If it says "enable rich-text" then click it and you should get your formatting bar...I think!  If not, let me know and I'll try to trouble-shoot for you.

I'm going to close this and let people continue here since this thread is long for people on dial-up:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/tech-issues-babble