Dialogue: Trotsky, Lenin: models of justice?

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Dialogue: Trotsky, Lenin: models of justice?

Why have Rabble/Babble sponsors failed to remove Rabble and associated groups from the International Socialist links?  IS belongs to the International Socialist Tendency which praises the 'revolutionary tradition' of Lenin. 

Why does Rabble promote events held by the Toronto Trotskyist League? 

Trotsky and Lenin had theories, parts of which may or may not be useful, requiring clarity in dialogue, however their BEHAVIOUR was inexcusable. 

Trotsky and Lenin oversaw the Red Army in its well-documented massacres of civilians, a pattern that turned even initial Ukrainian Communist sympathizers against it, oversaw the Cheka in its behaviour of torture, rape, and executions, and oversaw continued use of tsarist gulags for Communist dissenters.

When this subject has been discussed at Babble previously, reports of abuses were termed 'alleged'. 

What does it take to reach consensus ?

Other babblers said a distinction is made between theory and practice/ behaviour. 


a) It is very difficult to accept theory and practice which are not aligned.

b) Where there has been abusive behaviour it ought to be recognized, for justice to prevail.

c) Recognition ought to be spelled out in written materials of groups promoting related theory, particularly if those groups are naming themselves after abusers.

Areas of possible agreement:

a) Marx's critique of capitalism is useful.

b) Socialism could work internationally.

c) Human rights abuses are unacceptable.


Areas of likely debate:

a) Define human rights.

b) How could autonomous socialism for localities/regions be possible within federated international socialism?

c) How could babblers and self-described Trotskyists, Leninists, and those who choose to promote or link with such, respect people who reported abuses under Trotsky and Lenin?