Any possibility for a co-alition of the left?

49 posts / 0 new
Last post
Machjo
Any possibility for a co-alition of the left?

Seeing that the left is becoming increasingly divided (NDP, Green Party, FPNP, etc.), and that could only lead to the increased chance of a Conservative majority in future under the current FPTP system, is there any possibility of a left-leaning co-alition party for next election focussing on core progressive ideas so as to attract some of the centre too?

Stockholm

FPNP?

Erik Redburn

What left?  The Liberals can't even keep the centrist alliances they agreed to so I doubt we'll be seeing that again anytime soon either.

Machjo

Stockholm wrote:

FPNP?

 

First Peaples National Party.

 

One issue with First Nations though is that many also not only don't vote in provincial and federal elections, but are even cautioned by against it on the grounds that First Nations are fighting for self-determination and so fear that voting in provincial and federal elections could deligitimize or undermine the battle. Some First Nations though have chosen to go the electoral route anyway.

oldgoat

Green Party?

Machjo

oldgoat wrote:

Green Party?

 

What about it?

oldgoat

Sorry, I thought you were talking about a coalition of the left.

Fidel

Erik Redburn wrote:

What left?  The Liberals can't even keep the centrist alliances they agreed to so I doubt we'll be seeing that again anytime soon either.

It would have to be a coalition of the centre-left NDP and whatever few "pragmatic centrists" might still be kicking around in an all the way rightwing, since 1984, LPC.

Machjo

oldgoat wrote:

Sorry, I thought you were talking about a coalition of the left.

 

Yes, the Green Party is quite centrist, but do you believe the NDP will form the next government without shifting closer to the centre itself? The Green Party is on the right track in trying to bridge the gap between the right and the left.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Other than their vague lip service to the environment, what is the Green Party on the right track about?

genstrike

NDP?

Fidel

Machjo wrote:

Yes, the Green Party is quite centrist, but do you believe the NDP will form the next government without shifting closer to the centre itself? The Green Party is on the right track in trying to bridge the gap between the right and the left.

Green Party's nowhere until such time as Canadians fight hard for and win advanced democracy along the lines of proportional representation, which is an NDP platform plank. So vote strategically for the NDP if you want the Green Party to have fair representation in Canadian Parliament. If we had PR,  there would be something like 30 or 33 GP MP's in Ottawa today and important democratic voices heard for the public record in Canada's halls of power.

Machjo

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

Other than their vague lip service to the environment, what is the Green Party on the right track about?

 

Carbon tax for one.

Machjo

Fidel wrote:

Machjo wrote:

Yes, the Green Party is quite centrist, but do you believe the NDP will form the next government without shifting closer to the centre itself? The Green Party is on the right track in trying to bridge the gap between the right and the left.

Green Party's nowhere until such time as Canadians fight hard for and win advanced democracy along the lines of proportional representation, which is an NDP platform plank. So vote strategically for the NDP if you want the Green Party to have fair representation in Canadian Parliament. If we had PR,  there would be something like 30 or 33 GP MP's in Ottawa today and important democratic voices heard for the public record in Canada's halls of power.

 

The NDP has had decades to try to form a government at the Federal level. The Green Party has experienced steady growth, and with it being more centrist, it's more likely to actually stand a chance.

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Machjo wrote:

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

Other than their vague lip service to the environment, what is the Green Party on the right track about?

Carbon tax for one.

I would be inclined to count that as part of their vague lip-service; and to question whether it is the right track.

Fidel

Machjo wrote:

The NDP has had decades to try to form a government at the Federal level. The Green Party has experienced steady growth, and with it being more centrist, it's more likely to actually stand a chance.

The Green Party will never form government federally. Not as long as phony majorities and an electoral system invented before electricity are the way.

Machjo

Fidel wrote:

Machjo wrote:

The NDP has had decades to try to form a government at the Federal level. The Green Party has experienced steady growth, and with it being more centrist, it's more likely to actually stand a chance.

The Green Party will never form government federally. Not as long as phony majorities and an electoral system invented before electricity are the way.

 

So all the more reason to form a co-alition.

mmphosis
Machjo

Do you think a social democratic co-alition would be possible?

Machjo

It might have to be a moderate one granted, but I thin it could stand a chance if it sticks to only core values that they all share in common.

Fidel

Tories received 22 percent of the registered vote last election. Liberals somewhere below that. And 80 percent of Canadians hold membership in no political parties. I think that all leftwing parties have to try and appeal to some wide open percentage of non-voting Canadians as well as those borderline old line party supporters who simply go through the motions on election day every four years. And there will be some who are beginning to see that theyve been wasting their time by voting for the old ways. Democracy has been down for the count in Canada for some time. The left needs to fight harder than ever to revive it.

Machjo

But can a fragmented left pull it off? The left is now in the same boat the right was in before. The right has managed to pull off a co-alition of its own (though granted it's starting to see fissures again as the Tories spend like drunken sailors) while the left has been fragmenting. Now the ball is in the left's court.

remind remind's picture

They diod not pull off a coalition, talk about re-wrting history,  there was a hostile takeover, and a sell out by Mackay. that it has worked in the short term means little.

mmphosis

remind wrote:

They diod not pull off a coalition, talk about re-wrting history,  there was a hostile takeover, and a sell out by Mackay. that it has worked in the short term means little.

You are right.  Wink

As you well know, the extreme right wing Conservative party is an Alliance of the former Reform party and select right-wing people from the former Progressive Conservative party.  In the very very short term, the Conservatives perogued the government to stop a coalition of the Left.  There was a hostile takeover of the Liberal party, and a sell out by Ignatieff.  Since Paul Martin led the Liberals, the Liberal party has been in decline.  I don't think that Ignatieff will be calling an election any time soon.

If the NDP wants to win, and I think they do, I think they need to invite other parties to help defeat the Conservatives.  I also think that a healthy campaign with a focus on vision would attract more voters.  Bringing forth issues that are important to most Canadians would sweep the NDP to victory.

  • Rather than Canada invading Afghanistan, instead dissolve CSIS and the Canadian military and make reparations to the people of Afghanistan.
  • Rather than forcing very questionable busyness trade deals, instead open our borders to travel and embrace people and cultures from other countries.  And, encourage Canadians to travel the world.
  • Rather than funding of corporations, instead invest in people.  Immediately provide basic needs:  adequate and clean drinking water, nutritious food, and decent shelter for those who do need it now.
  • Rather than try to boost up failing private banks and stock markets, instead let them collapse and move to an economy based on debt free investment in people.

 

madmax

Machjo wrote:

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

Other than their vague lip service to the environment, what is the Green Party on the right track about?

Carbon tax for one.

  OUCH!!! What a brutal answer. It would have been interesting if you said, the Green Party is on the right track on the environment. But instead, the Green Party is on the right track because they believe in burdening the poor and letting the rich off the hook. Pay and pollute.  Which takes us back to the Lip Service on the environment. All important environmental issues have been lost or abandoned in favour of a tax regime.  So while the NDP is getting lectured by some here for spending too much time on a by election talking about ... TAX POLICY..... you suggest that the value that the GP would add is its TAX POLICY, which the NDP is directly opposed to.  Kinda funny actually.  But it does give reason that the Green Party could merge with the Liberals who support this kind of taxation policy.

For me, the environment is getting the shaft when all the talk is on taxes, and tax avoidance. Which is also what the Carbon Tax is about.

madmax

Machjo wrote:

But can a fragmented left pull it off? The left is now in the same boat the right was in before.

Nonsense. The left is no more fragmented today then it was 70 years ago. The Rights fragmentation is the result of them getting into government with a Ideological agenda, destroying a Province or Country, and then, the Right moves into new Parties to rebuild themselves until they can regroup under the strongest new name.  Infact, one might argue that the Right has not fully recovered from the Mulroney Era.

Still out of the fold are those who went to the BQ and If you see where disgruntled Progressives Conservatives landed after the McKay deal, many went to the Green Party.    

Machjo

madmax wrote:

Machjo wrote:

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

Other than their vague lip service to the environment, what is the Green Party on the right track about?

Carbon tax for one.

  OUCH!!! What a brutal answer. It would have been interesting if you said, the Green Party is on the right track on the environment. But instead, the Green Party is on the right track because they believe in burdening the poor and letting the rich off the hook. Pay and pollute.  Which takes us back to the Lip Service on the environment. All important environmental issues have been lost or abandoned in favour of a tax regime.  So while the NDP is getting lectured by some here for spending too much time on a by election talking about ... TAX POLICY..... you suggest that the value that the GP would add is its TAX POLICY, which the NDP is directly opposed to.  Kinda funny actually.  But it does give reason that the Green Party could merge with the Liberals who support this kind of taxation policy.

For me, the environment is getting the shaft when all the talk is on taxes, and tax avoidance. Which is also what the Carbon Tax is about.

 

So are you denying that a carbon tax would encourage people to seek out more efficient energy alternatives?

Machjo

The Green Party does have a conservative streak without a doubt, but it does have a progressive one too that cannot be denied.

madmax

Machjo wrote:
So are you denying that a carbon tax would encourage people to seek out more efficient energy alternatives?
  Considering that when Nova Scotia adopted the HST, it put on an extra layer of Tax much higher then the Federally proposed Carbon Tax on fuel amongst other items. After 10 years, the facts bear out that people could neither afford to change to other energy efficient alternatives nor afford to pay for their heating oil.  The end result being that the tax on Heating oil, had to come off, unless your goal of energy efficiency is freezing poor people in the dark.

Meanwhile looking at the nonsense proposed is to give wealthy people a substantial break on income and shift the burden onto the very people who cannot afford to pay the extra tax. 

It's bad bad bad bad  policy. It's not an environmental policy. It's just about taxes and who pays.   

 

Lord Palmerston

On the whole, I would place the Greens to the right of the NDP but to the left of the Liberals.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

There will be no political coalition of the left, or any movement whatsoever, because there is no cause. What is the overarching cause that will unite the left, causing rivalries and partisan politics to fall by the wayside, and drive a movement for real and lasting change? The collapse of what remains of the industrial econony? Nope. The threat of climate change and global ecological collapse? Nope. Human rights and social justice? Nah. The dispossession and extermination of remaining indigenous cultures and their homelands? No.

So without an issue to raise the blood of the left and bring them together in common cause, there will be no coalition. Period.

And if none of the above are sufficient enough to do it, and they're not, well ... give it up already.

Mojoroad1

Machjo, if you honestly believe the so called "Green party" is anything but a bung a po'd conservatives running their party from the top down, you're full of hot air.

 

flight from kamakura

i don't really imagine the liberals will sit in opposition if the end result of the next election is that the ndp/libs together hold a majority.  my guess is that in that situation they'd pull the plug on harper faster than you can shake a stick.

Machjo

flight from kamakura wrote:

i don't really imagine the liberals will sit in opposition if the end result of the next election is that the ndp/libs together hold a majority.  my guess is that in that situation they'd pull the plug on harper faster than you can shake a stick.

I was thinking more of an election coalition so as to avoid splitting the vote.

Machjo

Of course one disadvantage with such a coalition is that it would guarantee an election withint a year, two years at most, maybe even with a few months. Some might not be interested is so many elections in a row even if they do support ballot reform. One possible carrot to give them would be fixed election terms entrenched in law to go hand in hand with the ballot reforma nd just before then calling a new election.

Machjo

Or I could even see a Ballot-Reform Co-Alition that would welcome any party, left, right or centre, that supports electoral reform in favour of STV. It's first priority would be to reform the ballot, and its second and last would be to call an election, after which the co-alition would dissolve and each party could run on its own again.

janfromthebruce

Machjo wrote:

Or I could even see a Ballot-Reform Co-Alition that would welcome any party, left, right or centre, that supports electoral reform in favour of STV. It's first priority would be to reform the ballot, and its second and last would be to call an election, after which the co-alition would dissolve and each party could run on its own again.

I amnot interested in STV as electorial reform, although I am for PP. Furthermore, elections are really expensive so Canadians would not be interested in "wasting another 600 million" a couple of months later. Considering that both election reform went down the tubes in BC and Ont recently, I don't think that this "new party" would get lots of votes or even elect 1 member of parliament.

Better to vote for the 2 established parties who would establish election reform as their campaign planks - NDP & Greens. At least they have a fighting chance and the vote is not fractured more.

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Machjo

janfromthebruce wrote:

Machjo wrote:

Or I could even see a Ballot-Reform Co-Alition that would welcome any party, left, right or centre, that supports electoral reform in favour of STV. It's first priority would be to reform the ballot, and its second and last would be to call an election, after which the co-alition would dissolve and each party could run on its own again.

I amnot interested in STV as electorial reform, although I am for PP. Furthermore, elections are really expensive so Canadians would not be interested in "wasting another 600 million" a couple of months later. Considering that both election reform went down the tubes in BC and Ont recently, I don't think that this "new party" would get lots of votes or even elect 1 member of parliament.

Better to vote for the 2 established parties who would establish election reform as their campaign planks - NDP & Greens. At least they have a fighting chance and the vote is not fractured more.

 

You might not be aware that a few right-wing parties have some support for PP too. It's not a uniquely left-wing issue, and so if all  parties supporting this could unite even if only for that cause, it might just work. And again, to promise to entrench fixed terms would win votes too for the reaons you cited. And since it would be a one-issue co-alition by definition, people could trust it to carry out its one mandate.

One problem I could see of course would be with this co-alition forming a minority in Parliament. Since we woudl have elected from a broad co-alition, the members of this co-alition could be anywhere along the spectrum from far left to far right. This would be a big, big risk. If it forms a majority, we know that. since it's such a mixed co-alition, that it woudl go straight to its mandate and we'd have an election within a year. Otherwise, it could be scary.

On the other hand, even parties not in the co-alition could potentially end up supporting it when they see such a mixture in their midst.

Machjo

Now of course the biggest hurdle to such a co-alition would likely be trust. I'd have a hard time seeing representatives from the far left and far right joining under a common umbrella just for electoral reform. But hey, it's an idea worth throwing out non-the-less.

remind remind's picture

You betcha on the trust,  given the person proposing it is a long time member of the dark site.

Machjo

remind wrote:

You betcha on the trust,  given the person proposing it is a long time member of the dark site.

 

Ah yes:

"Never judge an idea on its merits, but according to the source."

-Author unknown

remind remind's picture

Na, I saw the way you twisted a conversation between you and I, here, into nothing resembling what actually took place. There is no reason on earth, as such, to trust anything you say.

janfromthebruce

thanks Machjo, I'm just not interested in putting my energy into such a coalition as my passion and time goes else where.

Machjo

remind wrote:

Na, I saw the way you twisted a conversation between you and I, here, into nothing resembling what actually took place. There is no reason on earth, as such, to trust anything you say.

 

"Never judge an idea according to its merits, but according to the source."

-Author unknown

Machjo

janfromthebruce wrote:

thanks Machjo, I'm just not interested in putting my energy into such a coalition as my passion and time goes else where.

At least that's a reasonable comment.

Erik Redburn

How about this for a reasonable comment...?   The "Liberal" and "Green" parties are no longer "left" of anything but the hard right CPC, and the Liberals sabotaged the last Two co-alitions.  The last maybe a blessing in disguise however; I just hope that's kept in mind after the coming election.

janfromthebruce

My babble - what you linked to doesn't really fit with your talking points - quote

"The party is reminding Quebecers “on the eve of an election” that Harper and Ignatieff hold the same positions on issues ranging from support for the oil sands to supporting the war in Iraq, Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe said Tuesday in Quebec City.

The print ads feature Harper and Ignatieff’s faces and the slogan, “Two Parties: One outlook.”

I agree with what Duceppe said - Two parties: one outlook.

Iggy can promise Canadians all sorts of stuff but liberal track record and what has come out of Iggy's mouth tells me that it will be no different - well a bit different. When the libs kick you in the gut, they say sorry in having to do that. We will make you feel better "down the road" - trust us.

Sure Iggy will get rid of the HST - just like the liberals got rid of the GST. Think about it in BC, you have a liberal/con govt bringing in the HST, and Iggy is going to do what? Nay, he's after the same voters on the right - tar sands - super; Afghanistan - super.

 

mybabble

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/national/2009/09/08/10793056.html

 

Nope!

 

But the campaign is in full swing at Bloc leader takes his swing at the Liberals and Harper's unpopularity and Iggy's increasing popularity with Quebecors.

And thats politics but the Liberals will also have their say and the poles will move this way and that way as the issues important to Canadians become the topics of the day.  And the Bloc has lots to say.  Has anyone heard from Layton yet, surely he must have something to contribute as its all grand he does all the parliamentary think but now what, Harper doesn't want to play nice with the NDP, so why bother. 

Is Iggy just another Harper, or is he his own man, and if the very least I want to hear what the Liberal leader has to say.  Going at Harper isn't whats important here but the issues like food on the table, and job creation, and the environment, and increased taxes, and reduced services, and homelessness, to name just a few.  Harper says the economy has recovered?  From what?  Harper.

 

Bloc says he is here for Quebec and what is in the province's and people's best interests. Hardly something one should be looking for when running for leader of a country, I'm here for Quebec ors.

In the last election the Bloc leader was the most impressive of the bunch, I thought anyways but his short falling of course, is he can't see past the province.

 And Harper I am of course saddened, as he talks the talk while 127 Canadians die at war that isn't their own and more a dangerous exploration getting at much need oil reserves.  And Iggy also if he is into keeping Canadian soldier's at a war that shouldn't be.  While war vets in the country are forced to live on the streets or shelters makes you wonder what people are fighting for, especially peace keeping Canadians.

Harper has lots of money for war, just not the war on poverty that he is fueling as Homelessness a new household word.  Home,Street, Home nothing Sweet about that.

 And Iggy got it right it is a diverse culture as I sat to take in the view and was quickly joined by a Chinese on my right and an East Indian on my left, and of course Chinese Canadian and East Indian Canadian there is a difference there is no denying.  The Liberal leader talked of job creation with China and East Indian and why not who would have a better idea in how to service or market to their own culture backgrounds.  Once the doors are open for lucrative trade the people themselves will find fill the gap with creative endeavors of their own. 

 

remind remind's picture

Exactly Jan!