Anybody think THIS could happen?

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture
Anybody think THIS could happen?

That is, that Justin T. could look at the provincial results in BC, deduce that THOSE policies are what the voters want in a Liberal government, and push the federal party as far to the rigjht as Christy Clark's mob?

If so, wouldn't that be a huge opportunity for the NDP to stop the Liberal comeback as the so-called "progressive" choice and swing the center-left voters he Boy Wonder has temporarily poached permanently into the NDP column without having o make many, if any, concessions to "centrism" at all?

Can we hope that there really is that little gray matter underneath all that expensively styled hair?

janfromthebruce

Ken, Trudeau has already signalled that he is on the right - he publically stated he supported the kinder morgan pipeline and other right leaning stuff like the Nexen deal with the Chinese, the treaty with the Chinese. His party also voted against the NDPs environmental motion.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Trudeau gets the fact that the majority of Canadian's who vote are middle class and at least somewhat satisfied with the status quo.  He is going to run a campaign to get his voters back from Harper.  Lets not forget that Harper got his majority by eating the Liberal's lunch. That does leave room on the left but not if the NDP thinks it has to please 50% of the voters.  The only way to please 50% of the voters in Canada is to not be a left of centre party.  But the NDP can win government with 36% to 40% of the vote if Trudeau gets his sheep back into the fold and there is at least a three way race in most parts of the country.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Trudeau tweeted congratulations for Clark's win, calling it a win for the middle class. So, yeah, I think that "could" "happen."

As an aside, a friend of mine overheard a young person remark in a bar after the BC Liberals' win say: "I thought I was voting for Justin Trudeau."

God have mercy on us all.

janfromthebruce

oh my god, Catchfire but it doesn't surprise me. Having worked many campaigns, the low information voter is a dream for the Libs to be both left and right. Remember how the libs win is by signalling both ways and getting lots of press with pictures but not much text.

Brachina

Catchfire wrote:
Trudeau tweeted congratulations for Clark's win, calling it a win for the middle class. So, yeah, I think that "could" "happen." As an aside, a friend of mine overheard a young person remark in a bar after the BC Liberals' win say: "I thought I was voting for Justin Trudeau." God have mercy on us all.

That sound you hear is my banging my head against the wall and denting it.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Brachina wrote:

Catchfire wrote:
Trudeau tweeted congratulations for Clark's win, calling it a win for the middle class. So, yeah, I think that "could" "happen." As an aside, a friend of mine overheard a young person remark in a bar after the BC Liberals' win say: "I thought I was voting for Justin Trudeau." God have mercy on us all.

That sound you hear is my banging my head against the wall and denting it.

 

Someone once posted here that wondered why Trudeau hated the NDP so much. I guess we know now. Holy smokes, he congratulated Clark and called it a win for the Middle Class. The SOB is going to run right, call himself a champion of the middle class and he might acually get away with it. Unblievable. I never thought I would see the day. Incredible.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Brachina wrote:

Catchfire wrote:
Trudeau tweeted congratulations for Clark's win, calling it a win for the middle class. So, yeah, I think that "could" "happen." As an aside, a friend of mine overheard a young person remark in a bar after the BC Liberals' win say: "I thought I was voting for Justin Trudeau." God have mercy on us all.

That sound you hear is my banging my head against the wall and denting it.

 

Someone once posted here that wondered why Trudeau hated the NDP so much. I guess we know now. Holy smokes, he congratulated Clark and called it a win for the Middle Class. The SOB is going to run right, call himself a champion of the middle class and he might acually get away with it. Unblievable. I never thought I would see the day. Incredible.

And then, a few months after getting elected, Justin would celebrate the 45th anniversary of the October Crisis by implementing the War Measures Act all over again. 

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Brachina wrote:

Catchfire wrote:
Trudeau tweeted congratulations for Clark's win, calling it a win for the middle class. So, yeah, I think that "could" "happen." As an aside, a friend of mine overheard a young person remark in a bar after the BC Liberals' win say: "I thought I was voting for Justin Trudeau." God have mercy on us all.

That sound you hear is my banging my head against the wall and denting it.

 

Someone once posted here that wondered why Trudeau hated the NDP so much. I guess we know now. Holy smokes, he congratulated Clark and called it a win for the Middle Class. The SOB is going to run right, call himself a champion of the middle class and he might acually get away with it. Unblievable. I never thought I would see the day. Incredible.

And then, a few months after getting elected, Justin would celebrate the 45th anniversary of the October Crisis by implementing the War Measures Act all over again. 

 

If they elect him, I am going to stop laughing about Americans.

jerrym

Remember that Justin is the grandson of James Sinclair, who was a right-wing BC Liberal Minister of Fisheries and later President and Chairman of Lafarge Cement, and of Charles Trudeau, a millionaire businessman. 

PrairieDemocrat15

Trudeau and Clark were made for each other.

janfromthebruce

And PD15 sums it up perfectly. Trudeau inherited wealth, over a million bucks, and is manor born. He can be a man of leisure. He didn't have to work full time, and was substitute teacher. Image living in Vancouver on a new teacher salary and a susbstitute one. They start at the bottom of the grid. Remember, he only worked in the public system one year before departing to the private system.

I have had new teachers tell me that unless they are living at home with mom and dad or have a live in partner that they could not survive on a teacher's pay and pay rent.

Trudeau than went to school in Montreal for engineering but quit that and eventually was accepted in a Master's program in geography. So it looks like he contemplated switching "professions" from teacher to engineer. But the engineering program is very difficult and many first years drop out because they just can't do it.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

janfromthebruce wrote:

And PD15 sums it up perfectly. Trudeau inherited wealth, over a million bucks, and is manor born. He can be a man of leisure. He didn't have to work full time, and was substitute teacher. Image living in Vancouver on a new teacher salary and a susbstitute one. They start at the bottom of the grid. Remember, he only worked in the public system one year before departing to the private system.

I have had new teachers tell me that unless they are living at home with mom and dad or have a live in partner that they could not survive on a teacher's pay and pay rent.

Trudeau than went to school in Montreal for engineering but quit that and eventually was accepted in a Master's program in geography. So it looks like he contemplated switching "professions" from teacher to engineer. But the engineering program is very difficult and many first years drop out because they just can't do it.

I ask again, how does the Resume qualify anyone to be Prime Minister? Does anyone know what his wife was doing? Was she working? How wealthy is she? I'd really like to see him asked about his economic position in these years. After all he's framing himself as the champion of the Middle Class, and as near as I can tell, he doesn't know anyone from the Middle Class.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Trudeau inherited wealth, over a million bucks, and is manor born. He can be a man of leisure. He didn't have to work full time, and was substitute teacher. 

If this doesn't qualify as middle class, I would like to know what does.

He put a mixing bowl worth $300 on his wedding gift registry. It's like you're saying the middle class doesn't need something to put their popcorn in.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Is your comment snark Catchfire?

Niall Keane Niall Keane's picture

Quote:

And then, a few months after getting elected, Justin would celebrate the 45th anniversary of the October Crisis by implementing the War Measures Act all over again.

The War Measures Act no longer exists (at least not in its original form). It was replealed by the Mulroney government in 1988 and is now called the Emergencies Act. It differs from the War Measure Act in two ways; one is that a state of war or "apprehended insurrection" declaration has to go through Parliament and the other is that any temporary laws made under the act are stil subject to the Charter. In practical terms though, I wonder if it would make any real difference if it were to be proclaimed anytime in the future; and by that I mean would there be less of the excesses and abuses than there were under the WMA.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Is your comment snark Catchfire?

Yes.

That said, isn't this thread about some kind of theoretical political scenario? Sorry for the drift, maybe we should get back on track, if such a thing exists...

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Niall Keane wrote:

Quote:

And then, a few months after getting elected, Justin would celebrate the 45th anniversary of the October Crisis by implementing the War Measures Act all over again.

The War Measures Act no longer exists (at least not in its original form). It was replealed by the Mulroney government in 1988 and is now called the Emergencies Act. It differs from the War Measure Act in two ways; one is that a state of war or "apprehended insurrection" declaration has to go through Parliament and the other is that any temporary laws made under the act are stil subject to the Charter. In practical terms though, I wonder if it would make any real difference if it were to be proclaimed anytime in the future; and by that I mean would there be less of the excesses and abuses than there were under the WMA.

OK then, he'd have the WMA re-enacted(probably with the Cons backing him). 

janfromthebruce

well the theory is that Trudeau is singling right but really he's not signling much of anything except charm, and middle class and thus such people into supporting him. Somewhere today I saw a header that 6 kids wrote Harper not to bully Trudeau. So my comment and aside that Trudeau is actually a 1 percenter and not middle class and has really lots of power and class gallore isn't being bullied - it's a political strategy to disarm any political opponent that attempts to show the wee emperor has no clothes. Each time he will cry "attack" (no matter how legitimate) and "bully" and use youth people to protect his privleged butt.

That's my theortical response. And I'm not good at sarcasm or figuring it out. I always sarcasm diminishes the conversation.

quizzical

janfromthebruce wrote:
Ken, Trudeau has already signalled that he is on the right - he publically stated he supported the kinder morgan pipeline and other right leaning stuff like the Nexen deal with the Chinese, the treaty with the Chinese. His party also voted against the NDPs environmental motion.

haven't heard a thing from kinder morgan here in Valemount until now the election is over. all of as sudden there's a public hearing on may 28th at  The Best Western conference room. they're looking for service club and business support for the twinning 'cause the pipeline goes right through here.

interesting they're holding it at the Best Western on a couple of fronts. the community hall is larger and more accessable for the community to participate and its where community info sessions usually happen... but don't think the community at large is invited.....and secondly the manager of the Best Western is a village councillor.....guess this shows where the divide is, or not????

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Catchfire wrote:
That's my theortical response. And I'm not good at sarcasm or figuring it out. I always sarcasm diminishes the conversation.

If this was directed at me, I wasn't being ironic, not sarcastic. I think irony generates rather than occludes meaning. It's not for evveryone, but neither am I, as it turns out. I think that any time you take Trudeau seriously, you particpate in the myth that is currently propping him up. That's why kids are writing Harper about bullying: because his wealth and privilege are rendered invisible rather than held up as natural defences to bullying. We should point out the power dynamic every chance we get -- this guy thinks that a $300 bowl is an appropriate item for a middle-class family to have. That's the unironic truth of the matter. Irony is the trick that makes you--imo--question that belief.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Catchfire wrote:

I think irony generates rather than occludes meaning. It's not for evveryone, but neither am I, as it turns out. I think that any time you take Trudeau seriously, you particpate in the myth that is currently propping him up. That's why kids are writing Harper about bullying: because his wealth and privilege are rendered invisible rather than held up as natural defences to bullying. We should point out the power dynamic every chance we get -- this guy thinks that a $300 bowl is an appropriate item for a middle-class family to have. That's the unironic truth of the matter. Irony is the trick that makes you--imo--question that belief.

I agree, irony is by far the best tool for skewering the privileged. I rarely attempt it in public because it is quite difficult to get right, and I am vain. But your little capsule of just how middle class Justin truly is was very well done. I enjoyed it, please don't stop being satirically ironic.

 

janfromthebruce

The 3 hundred dollar bowl - even if I had that kind of money I just couldn't do that - a waste of money. And you are right, the rendering of invisible his wealth and power which actually prevents him from being harmed by bullying. That's why I was so upset that kids were being used by this prig.

socialdemocrati...

Agree with catchfire about irony. In fact, it might be the only effective weapon we have against privileged interests, who have convinced everyone that they are very serious about very serious issues, and the rest of us aren't.

allah

I never realizesd how un-qualified Trudeau is.  Any insight as to his innate intelligence?

Summer

Do you have a link to JT's wedding registry Catchfire?  

Arthur > JT was not married when he lived and worked in BC - which was sometime in the 90s.  From what I have read, his wife was a Quebec television personality.   

I think the Liberals will campaign to the centre-right on a platform of fiscal responsiblity and accountability with a social conscience.  The BC election results demonstrate that voters will not go for the left.  If Canadians are sufficiently sick of Harper and have had enough time to get over the Sponsorship Scandal, it may work.  If not, we are in for four more years of Harper.  The NDP must try very hard to hang onto Quebec and to remind Canadians that the Liberals are entitled etc. or they will be back to third party status.  

One lesson from BC is that people are not voting.  The voter turnout was abysmal.  The NDP has more challenges with voter turnout than the other two parties.  The Conservatives have the most reliable base. The NDP needs to develop ways to convert intended votes into actual votes.  The Liberals need to try to get some of their old supporters back from the other two parties.   They also need to convert intended votes into actual votes.

theleftyinvestor

Just to quote JT properly, he tweeted: Congratulations to @christyclarkbc on a hard-fought win! I look forward to working together to build a strong middle class. #BCPoli #CdnPoli

and en français: Félicitations @christyclarkbc pour une victoire chaudement disputée! Au plaisir de travailler ensemble à bâtir une classe moyenne forte.

Hedy Fry tweeted: Congrats to @christyclarkbc & her party for their astounding win Look forward to working w your government 4 the benefit of BC'ers #bcelxn - she also congratulated Spencer Congrats @SChandraHerbert on your win. Look forward to continuing our working relationship for our mutual constituents. #bcelxn

Joyce Murray tweeted nothing about the BC election, for her part.

Anyway I would just point out that he did not call it a win for the middle class unless there is another tweet I missed. He expressed a desire to work together for the middle class, without specifying whether he actually thinks she can accomplish it. Treading carefully.

The "hard-fought" bit though... well that seems to endorse Clark sinking to the same lows that Harper would to defeat Liberals.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

OK, so is it all right that they congratulted her? I thought there was no connection between the Fed Libs and BC Libs. If BC Libs are Tories, then why would they cheer her? I mean Tom Mulcair did't tweet congratulations, let's work together. Is this just pandering?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Summer wrote:

The BC election results demonstrate that voters will not go for the left. 

If the NDP had run from the left you might have a valid point. Since they insisted on running from the mushy middle we have no idea whether or not a left wing platform would have outperformed the wishy washy One Baby Step at a Time approach.

The BC Liberals are a coalition of federal Conservatives and Liberals currently being led by someone from the Liberal side of the coalition.  I would have been surprised if federal Liberals did not congratulate Christy on her win. After all they are looking to win back the same voters that she somehow persuaded to once again vote for the corrupt status quo.

If the federal NDP takes as a lesson from the BC election that they should move further to the centre right I think they are going to find that there is no room for two liberal parties and they are the johhny come lately to that part of the political spectrum. The more the party tries to be the safe middle of the road alternative the less people trust them.

Brian Glennie

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The BC Liberals are a coalition of federal Conservatives and Liberals currently being led by someone from the Liberal side of the coalition. 

Nathan Cullen talked about us doing this. He tried to wake us up to a political reality. At the Toronto debate, people actually booed him when he tried to steer the conversation toward the topic of establishing practical alliances.

The Tories took their lumps, worked with Liberals and now will exert a real force in the way BC is governed.

NDP people have got to get past this idea that we can go it alone. It's not working.

socialdemocrati...

I think you can be against Liberal policies and still be for a leftward coalition that includes the Liberals. When the Liberals govern by themselves they lie out of both sides of their mouths and govern right. But when the Liberals govern in a coalition with the NDP, we get pensions, student loans, universal health care, an energy strategy for the whole country, and so on. Truthfully, when we go for proportional representation, we'll end up with a government that is structurally similar to that of the 60s and 70s. Just nominally different: not "Liberal coalition with the NDP" but probably some massive coalition of social democrats, hard socialists, greens, labor, liberals, visible minorities, and immigrants. The hope is that occasionally the social democrats will have more power in that coalition than the liberals, which would still be far better than what we've had in Canadian history so far.

Sean in Ottawa

Someone here should research and write a bio about Justin that exposes all of this. Only has to be about 50 pages (in small format would come to a hundred). This is the kind of book I used to publish. You might not need to even publish it-- just release it online. It would be a good starting place to have a look at the minimum qualifications for PM.

The book should consider his history, policies such as they are, pronouncements, what people have noticed etc. It should be done accurately (not a hatchet job) but ask the question is this what people really want? One title option could be: The People's Pedigree: what does it take to become PM? It could include streeter interviews with Canadians asking those who support Trudeau why-- what it is that make them want him. Is it becuase he is not Harper? A son of the old emperor? That they think he could relate to them? Ask them what they think he will do (contrast that with what he has said to support or contradict that).

Maybe I should consider doing this but I have the problem of needing to pay bills so I'd have to find out how I could derive some income for the time...

But, if this is to be done and sold there are two important things about the project-- it needs to be accessible none of this $39.95 big tome hardback stuff. It would need to be short, cheap and widely available.

Alternately the NDP could commission something like this-- look at the backgrounds of the three leaders vying for PM and contrast them examining experience, qualifications, loyalties, policies. The party could make this into a 48 page booklet that is widely shared and the source material for social media like youtube and ads. This could be the "bible" of the leadership question for the next couple years. It could, and should openly question if Harper will lead the Conservatives while looking at the culture of what could be the source for his replacement-- so that if Harper did go the book would remain current. Done stapleback, the party could afford to give thousands away and barely dent the cost of a single TV ad. It would get more secondary publicity than any ad and mark the party as one of substance.

At the same time the party should prepare a book of policies and principles for the leadership of Canada. This would be released just prior to the campaign and include key elements of what would become NDP policy. It is something like this that could take back the agenda. This latter book (under 100 pages) should be the product of obvious consultation-- the party must hold events to inform it.

If you want the agenda and the role of leadership back-- you have to take it. The party must understand you do not win by default.

Brachina

Brian Glennie wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The BC Liberals are a coalition of federal Conservatives and Liberals currently being led by someone from the Liberal side of the coalition. 

Nathan Cullen talked about us doing this. He tried to wake us up to a political reality. At the Toronto debate, people actually booed him when he tried to steer the conversation toward the topic of establishing practical alliances.

The Tories took their lumps, worked with Liberals and now will exert a real force in the way BC is governed.

NDP people have got to get past this idea that we can go it alone. It's not working.

You act like its a choice. As long as the media has Justin convinced he's the second coming, he won't be interested in an alliance. And even if did gainbinterest, it'd be with the Tories, Justin is not Wynn.

Bacchus

Even Wynn is not Wynn. The only reason why shes playing nice to the NDP is the PCs have declared publically they wont so theres no wiggle room there. Im sure she would much rather play nice with the PCs.

 

Tho the NDP has better policies she can steal and call her own for the next election, like has happened to all the NDP coalitions in the past

Geoff

Neither cooperation nor coalition will guarantee the defeat of Harper, regardless of Trudeau's personal politics.  While the NDP took a step towards "Liberalizing" its statement of principles in the recent climb down on the constitutional preamble, there is still one important difference between the two parties.

A significant number of Liberals would be more comfortable holding their noses and voting Conservative, rather than voting for some Liberal-NDP configuration.  Thus, any form of cooperation could actually help the Conservatives, not hurt them. 

At least with more than two choices, the number of potential outcomes increases; not so if elections become a zero sum game of "us and them".  If we want to defeat Harper, we're further ahead opposing any kind of pre-election cooperation than we are supporting it.