Is Canada really that different from Greece? (Limitations on Democracy)

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wage zombie

Pondering wrote:

My argument is that whichever party is in power, including the NDP, is limited in how far they can go. The NDP can't campaign on shutting down the oil sands.

This is independent of "the oligarchs".  The NDP can't campaign on shutting down the tar sands.  This is because our society is largely powered by fossil fuels.  What the NDP can do in government is implement policies that decrease our reliance on fossil fuels.

For example, we have a car problem in Canada.  The way to fix this isn't to propose banning cars.  It is to build infrastructure and implement policies that give people better non-car alternatives.

Pondering

wage zombie wrote:

Pondering wrote:

My argument is that whichever party is in power, including the NDP, is limited in how far they can go. The NDP can't campaign on shutting down the oil sands.

This is independent of "the oligarchs".  The NDP can't campaign on shutting down the tar sands.  This is because our society is largely powered by fossil fuels.  What the NDP can do in government is implement policies that decrease our reliance on fossil fuels.

For example, we have a car problem in Canada.  The way to fix this isn't to propose banning cars.  It is to build infrastructure and implement policies that give people better non-car alternatives.

That's my point. I'm talking about a movement that has nothing at all to do with the individual political parties or Energy East.

I'm saying no matter which party is elected, NDP, Conservatives, Liberals, Green, Pink, Yellow, whatever, all governments are subject to the machinations of oligarchs.

I am not arguing against the NDP. I have said, assume for the sake of argument they are elected and they do lots of wonderful things that help the poor and downtrodden so the conversation can move on.

Is the NDP going to start the mass demonstrations that Chris Hedges believes are necessary? Are they going to rip up CETA?

Pondering

I created a new thread here:

http://rabble.ca/babble/activism/occupy-oligarchy

To discuss generating a mass movement against Canadian oligarchs that heavily influence Canadian politics whichever party happens to be in power. Please don't use it to pump the NDP as the solution to all of our problems.

If you believe that the NDP is the answer to all our prayers fine. I don't. I think we have to go beyond electoral politics for solutions.

I think we need a mass movement that crosses the left/right divide and all other divides. A mass movement that doesn't endorse any particular political party.

If the mass movement must endorse the NDP then it will fail because that would exclude Liberals and Conservatives.

If the mass movement must endorse anarchy then it will fail.

If the mass movement must be against voting at all it will fail.

If the mass movement is for separation it will fail.

If the mass movement is against separation it will fail.

 

 

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..the movements are already there pondering. and plans are in the works to grow them. maybe it's a control mechanism your looking for but i can assure you that will not happen.

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..the movements are already there pondering. and plans are in the works to grow them. maybe it's a control mechanism your looking for but i can assure you that will not happen.

The movements may be there but they have not resulted in what Chris Hedges says is needed and none of the movements target oligarchs or even mention them as far as I know.

What if Adbusters had taken the same attitute, no need for a call to action because there are already anti-poverty movements against bankers and Wall Street?

The Occupy movement would not have happened.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..what i'm saying is that in canada and que the movements are already there. what is needed is growth. what has come out of toronto in the recents gatherings is the strategy of unification of all struggles under climate justice. something similar has already been occuring in que. now all that is needed is link ourselves to these movements. there is no need to build new ones.

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..what i'm saying is that in canada and que the movements are already there. what is needed is growth. what has come out of toronto in the recents gatherings is the strategy of unification of all struggles under climate justice. something similar has already been occuring in que. now all that is needed is link ourselves to these movements. there is no need to build new ones.

Who have they named as the oligarchs? Is their goal to defeat oligarchs in general or just on climate change?

iyraste1313

..the movements are already there....!?

if we've learned anything re SYRIZA surely it must be that a political institution or movement must have a clear program of transition.........

travelling in the Thompson Cariboo, facing awesome ecological destruction, (Imperial Metals, Highland Copper Taseko's Gibralter Mines...ad nauseum, I see yet no sign of any mass movement....and when surely it arises...it better be linked to some program that offers alternatives...to the oligarchy and its globalist economic and financial systems, its cultural attachment to corporate high wage slave, commodity status seeking etc....or again it will be a failure...

this is why I harp on the need for discussions here or elsewhere on what that program may look like...

Where I do see some spark of movement lies in in some of the sovereigntist oriented Indigenous Nations, where indigenous cultural respect and restoration, shutdown of the corporate ecocide agenda and a program of economic alternatives are on the table!

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..this isn't about naming names it's about making change. presenting alternatives. demanding a voice backed up by by action.

 

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..this isn't about naming names it's about making change. presenting alternatives. demanding a voice. 

They you may win battles but you will lose the war. Neoliberalism will continue to rule the world and Canada.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..you don't get to decide that pondering.

iyraste1313

http://rabble.ca/babble/activism/march-jobs-justice-and-climate-july-5th...

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..what i'm saying is that in canada and que the movements are already there. what is needed is growth. what has come out of toronto in the recents gatherings is the strategy of unification of all struggles under climate justice. something similar has already been occuring in que. now all that is needed is link ourselves to these movements. there is no need to build new ones.

What are they waiting for? Why haven't they made as big a splash as Occupy? Occupy was created by just a handful of anarchists in New York over a few months. You have all these organizations working together across Canada and they can't get even 50 thousand people into the street?

Do you think the people who started Occupy should have just joined the existing movements instead of trying to start something new?

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..for now they are preventing the pipelines from being built which in turn prevents the tar sand from expanding. and they are growing the movements.

eta: que got 300000 into the street

 

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..you don't get to decide that pondering.

iyraste1313

http://rabble.ca/babble/activism/march-jobs-justice-and-climate-july-5th...

That march was only 10K people. I don't think that is what Chris Hedges meant.

Those movements have succeeded to a point but they show no signs of being anywhere close to turning the public against neoliberalism enough to generate a rebellion against the oligarchs or even as much as Occupy managed to achieve without even having a goal.

If someone on this board had suggested Occupy everyone would have just shot it down and said "don't bother, we already have enough movements".

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

pondering

..movements grow at their own pace and time lines. and nobody has to actually say they are against neoliberalism. they just need to intervene and provide alternatives to what is causing them pain and misery. after all movements are diverse.

..it was interesting how the toronto thing came about. activists representing many issues were meeting in toronto planning a march to oppose austerity etc. the idea of combining the movements under climate justice came from "this changes everything" people. avi lewis attended the meeting and pitched the plan. in turn the changes everything people were inspired by the alliances happening in bc between communities, groups and first peoples. bby mountain is an example but far from being the only one. but the proposal was adopted. and under this banner this was the first of what i think will be many actions.

Typical Senior

This has been a very interesting read despite the bickering. I don't know much about Business Insider as a reliable source, but the comments made by European leaders are astounding. 

Late last night, European Council leader Donald Tusk told the FT:

“I am really afraid of this ideological or political contagion, not financial contagion, of this Greek crisis,” said Mr Tusk.

… “For me, the atmosphere is a little similar to the time after 1968 in Europe,” he said.

“I can feel, maybe not a revolutionary mood, but something like widespread impatience. When impatience becomes not an individual but a social experience of feeling, this is the introduction for revolutions.”

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/europe-worrying-about-revolution-if-gr...

I agree with Chris Hedges. The NDP cannot stop the crushing globalists, for the 1st time in my voting life I am not so much concerned with domestic policy (thankfully because of our SCC) but about foreign policy, which to my mind, is going to be the downfall of all existing faux democracies. It just so happens the ndp/greens are probably the least militaristic right now. 

Pondering

You brought this link here, why?

We will not return to a rational economy or restore democracy until these global speculators are stripped of power. This will happen only if the streets of major cities in Europe and the United States are convulsed with mass protests. The tyranny of these financial elites knows no limits. They will impose ever greater suffering and repression until we submit or revolt. I prefer the latter. But we don’t have much time.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/page3/we_are_all_greeks_now_20150712

I don't any indication that the established social justice movements, together or otherwise, are inspiring the type of protests Chris Hedges is talking about.

Those movements are all important and necessary to provide solutions once people are convinced we need solutions beyond that which our current system is sufficient to provide.

10K people in one city is not "convulsed by massive protest". Stopping pipelines does not strip global speculator power. It will certainly never happen if we aren't even willing to name them.

I don't know how people like Chris Hedges don't lose hope when even activists won't listen to him.

 

 

Pondering

Typical Senior wrote:

This has been a very interesting read despite the bickering. I don't know much about Business Insider as a reliable source, but the comments made by European leaders are astounding. 

Quote:

Late last night, European Council leader Donald Tusk told the FT:

“I am really afraid of this ideological or political contagion, not financial contagion, of this Greek crisis,” said Mr Tusk.

… “For me, the atmosphere is a little similar to the time after 1968 in Europe,” he said.

“I can feel, maybe not a revolutionary mood, but something like widespread impatience. When impatience becomes not an individual but a social experience of feeling, this is the introduction for revolutions.”

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/europe-worrying-about-revolution-if-gr...

I agree with Chris Hedges. The NDP cannot stop the crushing globalists, for the 1st time in my voting life I am not so much concerned with domestic policy (thankfully because of our SCC) but about foreign policy, which to my mind, is going to be the downfall of all existing faux democracies. It just so happens the ndp/greens are probably the least militaristic right now. 

Thank-you, I think people are ready to rise up. It's what Occupy tapped into. The trick is finding a way to light the fuse. Once the fuse is lit there are plenty of sub-movements and organizations to guide the way.

wage zombie

Pondering wrote:

I don't know how people like Chris Hedges don't lose hope when even activists won't listen to him.

I like Chris Hedges, but most people I know from Occupy view him mostly with disdain.

Pondering

wage zombie wrote:

Pondering wrote:

I don't know how people like Chris Hedges don't lose hope when even activists won't listen to him.

I like Chris Hedges, but most people I know from Occupy view him mostly with disdain.

Occupy is a leaderless movement. The people who view Chris Hedges with distain aren't interested in the 99%. They are probably among those who used Occupy as a vehicle to push their pet issues be it climate change or poverty or anti-capitalism or anarchy. They don't care about the upper middle class or see them as exploited. They only care about the poor and the downtrodden.

wage zombie

Pondering wrote:

Occupy is a leaderless movement. The people who view Chris Hedges with distain aren't interested in the 99%. They are probably among those who used Occupy as a vehicle to push their pet issues be it climate change or poverty or anti-capitalism or anarchy. They don't care about the upper middle class or see them as exploited. They only care about the poor and the downtrodden.

Pondering

wage zombie wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Occupy is a leaderless movement. The people who view Chris Hedges with distain aren't interested in the 99%. They are probably among those who used Occupy as a vehicle to push their pet issues be it climate change or poverty or anti-capitalism or anarchy. They don't care about the upper middle class or see them as exploited. They only care about the poor and the downtrodden.

Do you have a comment to add or are you just agreeing with me?

wage zombie

I'm just preserving another one of Pondering's Greatest Hits.

Pondering

wage zombie wrote:

I'm just preserving another one of Pondering's Greatest Hits.

The upper middle-class are not oligarchs they are part of the "99%". I put that in quotes because it isn't literal.

The choice to represent the 99% rather than the usual sweep of the needy was (IN MY OPINION) key to occupy's popularity and general support from the public.

I want to aim at a small group of people, maybe a few thousand, that are the billionaires pulling the strings of government to line their pockets in war and peace and in depressions and boom times.

It should not be this difficult to have that discussion.

jjuares

Pondering wrote:

wage zombie wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Occupy is a leaderless movement. The people who view Chris Hedges with distain aren't interested in the 99%. They are probably among those who used Occupy as a vehicle to push their pet issues be it climate change or poverty or anti-capitalism or anarchy. They don't care about the upper middle class or see them as exploited. They only care about the poor and the downtrodden.

Do you have a comment to add or are you just agreeing with me?


Climate change is a "pet issue"? Saving the planet is a pet issue? Wow real real right wing stuff here.

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

edit..just a paranoid fantasy.

..i'm thinking that someone, maybe say the liberal party, has recognized that the real threat to power is independent struggles that threaten to push parties into taking more radical stands. like say stopping the pipelines from going forward or pushing for alternatives that reduce effects to the climate. so if you would sabotage independent progressive dialogues you.

Do you think there is a federal political party that will campaign against pipelines that can win? I don't.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

edit..just a paranoid fantasy.

..i'm thinking that someone, maybe say the liberal party, has recognized that the real threat to power is independent struggles that threaten to push parties into taking more radical stands. like say stopping the pipelines from going forward or pushing for alternatives that reduce effects to the climate. so maybe you would sabotage independent progressive dialogues.

Pondering

jjuares wrote:
Pondering wrote:

wage zombie wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Occupy is a leaderless movement. The people who view Chris Hedges with distain aren't interested in the 99%. They are probably among those who used Occupy as a vehicle to push their pet issues be it climate change or poverty or anti-capitalism or anarchy. They don't care about the upper middle class or see them as exploited. They only care about the poor and the downtrodden.

Do you have a comment to add or are you just agreeing with me?

Climate change is a "pet issue"? Saving the planet is a pet issue? Wow real real right wing stuff here.

Hyper-sensitive much? Feminism is my "pet issue". Maybe I should have said favorite issue, whatever, it's semantics. In my opinion if people take power away from oligarchs it will be much easier to win the climate change battle and fight poverty, racism, sexism, and violence etc.

I am not suggesting that the organizations and people fighting those battles should stop nor that people should no longer participate in electoral politics.

Occupy hasn't replaced any of those movements or damaged them in any way I heard of.

I can understand just not being interested in brainstorming how to target oligarchs. When I'm not interested in a conversation or idea I just don't participate in that discussion. I don't try to stop it from happening. If no one is interested it dies.

I would think that brainstorming a means to target oligarchs, or generate a revolution in a wealthy democracy might at least be an interesting thought exercise. To be actively against allowing such a discussion to take place is jaw-dropping.

Go ahead and ridicule me. Sometimes this board is like a bizarre soap opera.

You may now return to your regularly aired "Trudeau is in league with the devil" fascinating threads.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i think that polititions are vunerable to political pressure from below.

..here is a better link

Is Northern Gateway B.C.’s National Energy Program?

 

 

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..i think that polititions are vunerable to political pressure from below.

Tight election races threaten Conservative incumbents in B.C.

I think the environmental movement has made huge strides but it is like playing whack-a-mole. It's a monumental battle. I find it difficult to understand why you wouldn't want to attack from more than one angle. In fact environmental facts were they better known is a 99% issue that would rouse people's anger. There has been a huge increase in oil being transported by rail. Government corruption is another.

I fail to see how going after oligarchs harms the environmental movement in any way.

JKR

Pondering wrote:

wage zombie wrote:

I'm just preserving another one of Pondering's Greatest Hits.

The upper middle-class are not oligarchs they are part of the "99%". I put that in quotes because it isn't literal.

The choice to represent the 99% rather than the usual sweep of the needy was (IN MY OPINION) key to occupy's popularity and general support from the public.

I want to aim at a small group of people, maybe a few thousand, that are the billionaires pulling the strings of government to line their pockets in war and peace and in depressions and boom times.

It should not be this difficult to have that discussion.

IMHO, if all the billionaires disappeared tomorrow, they would be quickly replaced. Our social, economic, and political systems and the ideology(s) that they are based on need to change in order to create a more equitable world.

mark_alfred

We have to set up something like Logan's Run, where everyone is implanted with a life clock crystal in their hand that blinks and sends them to "Carrousel" once they earn over a billion.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Pondering wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..i think that polititions are vunerable to political pressure from below.

Tight election races threaten Conservative incumbents in B.C.

I think the environmental movement has made huge strides but it is like playing whack-a-mole. It's a monumental battle. I find it difficult to understand why you wouldn't want to attack from more than one angle. In fact environmental facts were they better known is a 99% issue that would rouse people's anger. There has been a huge increase in oil being transported by rail. Government corruption is another.

I fail to see how going after oligarchs harms the environmental movement in any way.

..you have continually reduced the struggles to the "enviromental movements" when in fact it is across the board alliances that includes the enviromental movements. why do you do this? 

eta...sorry to be confusing but i changed that link in the post above to this one below. it is much clearer and was what was initially reported to the national post.

Is Northern Gateway B.C.’s National Energy Program?

quote:

The desire for representation on this issue in Ottawa has British Columbians looking to opposition politicians, all of whom have promised to cancel Northern Gateway if they form government. But citizens are also counting on First Nations to defend local interests.

This week a fundraising drive has people across the province organizing events to help cover court costs for seven of the First Nations challenging the project approval. Called “Pull Together,” the campaign has raised more than $450,000 so far.

This alignment between First Nations and British Columbians is coalescing into a regional political movement with the potential to become as powerful as Reform twenty years ago in Alberta. Sooner or later, Enbridge will be defeated in B.C. The only question is whether the current government goes down with it.

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..you have continually reduced the struggles to the "enviromental movements" when in fact it is across the board alliances that includes the enviromental movements. why do you do this? 

I think I have been very supportive and complimentary towards what the environmental movement has accomplished to the point of using it as an example in which the oligarchs have been thwarted therefore proving our democracy remains strong enough that it isn't impossible to do.

If we examine it dispassionately we can see its strengths and weaknessses and there might be some lessons to be learned from it.

In another time it would be called a rebellion and force would have been used and Harper has classified environmental groups as terrorists.

In any case I have no interest in trying to force people to have a discussion they don't want to have.

Pondering

BRF wrote:

With the three major Canadian parties all centre right to far right Canadian govt. would react exactly as the pre Syriza, and I might add post Greek govys have, Syriza having vacated their mandate. That being said, the Greek people's voice has been ignored as being totally injurious to the Washington Consensus and the New World Order banking cartel's vision of a one world bank where everyone and everything is either a debt slave or is posted as collateral on credit-debt owed to the One World Bank; which by the way is owned by the one hundredth of one percenters. This may seem a radical departure from the usual commentay here but consider this.... Canadians have to date paid over one Trillion dollars in taxes just on the interest charged on the Federal debt. That Federal debt presently stands at 650 Billion dollars , portions of that debt at varying interest rates. The various Federal govts have since Confederation to 2008( data cited) had expenditures over revenues, or the amount of money govt has borrowed, of 37 Billion. This is just the Federal scenario. So any talk of deficit reduction or balanced budgets through austerity or any other means is a load of crap Canadian politicians are handing the public because they are afraid to address the root cause of what really is unrepayable debts run up so that bankers might own the whole ball of wax that is Canada, just like in Greece. The Greeks are just a little further along the road than us Canadians. One main solution is the restoration of the Bank of Canada to its constitutional role as a public bank to all the levels of Canadian governance creating debt free money to counter balance banker's debt money in the Canadian economy. A small group of Canadians (COMER) with the help of Rocco Galati is now suing the Bank and Governmennt to these ends, Canada being the only nation with a publicly owned central bank, presently caputured by the international banking cabal to do itd bidding... remember Mark Carney was a former Goldman Sachs "golden boy". If monetary reform is not  on the tongues of the people first then all the other causes, whether its Notley's democratic energy plan, ending child poverty or at some point inclusion of the First Nations as valuable members of our society all these and all the other worthies will be for nothing in the face of globalism run by the bankers and their financial henchmen, with our turn coming as sure as money is created as debt all owed to bankers.

Yes, thank-you, I read about the court case. Delighted it's happening. This is one of the major tools they have used to siphon billions out of the productive world. I really hope they win but that the courts accepted the case at all says a lot.

Financial trickery is also being used:

This is another precedent setting court case.

Two weeks ago a court in The Hague, Netherlands, delivered a watershed decision on climate change. To meet this duty, the government must set and achieve a greenhouse gas emission (GHG) reduction target of at least 25 per cent below 1990 levels by the year 2020.

There's no doubt this is a landmark decision, fully deserving of the international media coverage it has received. But to understand its significance, and its potential impact on Canadian law, it's necessary to take a step back.

Climate change has proven a tough problem to pin down in the courtroom. Nearly all economic and social activity contributes to greenhouse gas pollution. The harm caused by this pollution is felt globally (though most acutely by the poor) and the worst effects won't be felt for decades. Those who stand to benefit the most from GHG emission reductions -- future generations, the global poor, future clean tech workers, and climate-vulnerable species -- are less visible than protectors of the status quo. Taking all of these factors together, it is clear the only real solutions are systemic changes at the societal level.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/ecojustice/climate-change-action_b_7756340....

But then there is this:

Vancouver’s attempt to obtain a permanent court injunction against CP’s reactivation plan failed, and while the trains haven’t started yet, Robertson is left pondering how the modern city is supposed to deal with the railways. In an interview, he stresses his respect for Vancouver’s historical importance as a rail terminus, saying the city has long had constructive relations with the railways. “But that’s completely fallen apart with CP,” he says. “Their lack of respect for the community has dug them a big hole.” While the dispute is nominally about money, it’s led Robertson to think the relationship between cities and railroads needs a reset: “Changes to the legislation governing railways are long overdue.”

The great irony? He and Harrison might at one time have made allies. Rail transport, after all, was the go-to solution of eco-conscious urbanites worried about climate change and traffic congestion—one Robertson touts to this day. But if the railways’ appetite for precious urban land has soured the relationship, their decision to embrace oil transport blew it to bits. Citing oil industry numbers projecting near-fourfold growth in movement of petroleum by rail within Canada, to 700,000 cars annually by 2016, residents of communities large and small have mobilized against oil trains coming through their communities.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/are-train-companies-railroading-canad...

It's whack-a-mole.

BRF

With the three major Canadian parties all centre right to far right Canadian govt. would react exactly as the pre Syriza, and I might add post, Greek govts have, Syriza having vacated their mandate, if the leadership were not Manchurians to begin with. That being said, the Greek people's voice has been ignored as being totally injurious to the Washington Consensus and the New World Order banking cartel's vision of a one world bank where everyone and everything is either a debt slave or is posted as collateral on credit-debt owed to the One World Bank; which by the way is owned by the one hundredth percent or less of the one percenters. This may seem a radical departure from the usual commentay here but consider this.... Canadians have to date paid over one Trillion dollars in taxes just on the interest charged on the Federal debt. That Federal debt presently stands at 650 Billion dollars , portions of that debt at varying interest rates. The various Federal govts have since Confederation to 2008( data cited) had expenditures over revenues, or the amount of money govt has borrowed, of 37 Billion; the rest is compounding interest. This is just the Federal scenario. So any talk of deficit reduction or balanced budgets through austerity or any other means is a load of crap Canadian politicians are handing the public because they are afraid to address the root cause of what really is unrepayable debts run up so that bankers might own the whole ball of wax that is Canada, just like in Greece. The Greeks are just a little further along that mathematically inevitable road than us Canadians. The present monetary system eventually leaves the bankers with all the money and foreclosing/owning all the real assets of this world as the ironclad event horizon of that system. One main solution is the restoration of the Bank of Canada to its constitutional role as a public bank to all the levels of Canadian governance creating debt free money to counter balance banker's debt money in the Canadian economy. A small group of Canadians - COMER (donations greatly appreciated at this time) with the help of renouned constitutional lawyer and all round great Canadian Rocco Galati is now suing the Bank and Governmennt to these ends, Canada being the only nation with a publicly owned central bank, presently caputured by the international banking cabal to do itd bidding... remember Mark Carney was a former Goldman Sachs "golden boy". If monetary reform is not  on the tongues of the people first then all the other causes, whether its Notley's democratic energy plan, ending child poverty or at some point inclusion of the First Nations as valuable members of our society all these and all the other worthies will be for nothing in the face of globalism run by the bankers and their financial henchmen, with our turn coming as sure as money is created as debt all owed to bankers.

Typical Senior

Oh so sorry, don't know how to make the links live, will go look for help.

Typical Senior

If I may I'd like to contribute articles I've read recently, which gives hope that people are waking up. (thanks for link to March for Jobs/Justice/Climate btw)

I love the Rolling Stone actually apologizing to the 'conspiracy theorists', you were right all along, lol. The banks colluding not competing. [url=http://politicalvelcraft.org/2013/05/10/rolling-stone-rothschild-corrupt...

This gem on Econo-Speak - just replace Canada for Oz - [url=http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/july/1435672800/richard-denniss/...

Vassal countries categorized, which gives validation to the quiet/slow pull-out of Ukraine, since there are no buckets of money/resources to be had.

[url=http://fortruss.blogspot.se/2015/07/lords-and-vassals-quick-update-on.ht...

Oh and a Review of NATIONAL SECURITY AND DOUBLE GOVERNMENTby Michael J. Glennon, Glennon assures this is Not a Conspiracy Theory. [url=http://newramblerreview.com/book-reviews/law/shadow-government-and-the-e...

It does make one wonder about the new Spy Palace.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Pondering wrote:

You brought this link here, why?

We will not return to a rational economy or restore democracy until these global speculators are stripped of power. This will happen only if the streets of major cities in Europe and the United States are convulsed with mass protests. The tyranny of these financial elites knows no limits. They will impose ever greater suffering and repression until we submit or revolt. I prefer the latter. But we don’t have much time.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/page3/we_are_all_greeks_now_20150712

I don't any indication that the established social justice movements, together or otherwise, are inspiring the type of protests Chris Hedges is talking about.

Those movements are all important and necessary to provide solutions once people are convinced we need solutions beyond that which our current system is sufficient to provide.

10K people in one city is not "convulsed by massive protest". Stopping pipelines does not strip global speculator power. It will certainly never happen if we aren't even willing to name them.

I don't know how people like Chris Hedges don't lose hope when even activists won't listen to him.

..apologies. somehow i missed this. i brought that piece here for more than the quote you provide pondering. much much more. eta: it described how the people in the usa are similar to those in greece.

..bc hasn't had any major mass protests either. at least not in the numbers you seem to be thinking of. yet the anti pipelines struggle is supported all across the province. demotionstrations have their part to play but struggles have changed since the militarization of the police.

..and if you have a look at the list of partners in the toronto march you will see the support it has runs into the hundreds of thousands if not millions of folks. including representatives of the tarsands workers. including faith groups and this has become even more important since the pope is calling on the youth to rise up against global capitalism. again you have minimized the struggle.

The March for Jobs, Justice, and the Climate is being organized by a broad coalition of groups across Canada listed below.

 

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..apologies. somehow i missed this. i brought that piece here for more than the quote you provide pondering. much much more.

..bc hasn't had any major mass protests either. at least not in the numbers you seem to be thinking of. yet the anti pipelines struggle is supported all across the province. demotionstrations have their part to play but struggles have changed since the militarization of the police.

..and if you have a look at the list of partners in the toronto march you will see the support it has runs into the hundreds of thousands if not millions of folks including representatives of the tarsands workers. including faith groups and this has become even more important since the pope is calling on the youth to rise up against global capitalism. again you have minimized the struggle.

The March for Jobs, Justice, and the Climate is being organized by a broad coalition of groups across Canada listed below.

I am not arguing against any of the existing groups or movements or political parties. If Occupy had not yet happened, would you be arguing against it now? Pointing at all the existing movements and saying they are good enough, nevermind Wall street?

The peasants who rioted in support of French Revolution didn't know what would come next. Lots of people don't think too deeply about politics, or pay attention to the news beyond the headlines. People who are too busy for politics, or think it's too complicated. People who dismiss politicians as all the same so don't vote. People who are interested, and support demonstrations against climate change, but don't attend the demonstrations. People who recognize climate change but trust our current leaders to figure it out without hurting our lifestyles. The people who respond best to all the right-wing propaganda are difficult to reach and not interested in extended political discussions or going on demonstrations. People who react negatively when they sense someone is trying to change their mind on something, or convert them. They form a significant portion of the 99%.

If the March for Jobs, Justice, and the Climate was/is the solution why are the majority of people still supporting the principles of neoliberalism and balanced budgets over the common good? Why are we still planning a normal election in October?

It's great to be drumming all the good news about the Pope's speech and the March for Jobs, Justice, and Climate Change, but if that were enough the NDP could oppose development of the oil sands and get elected by a landslide.

Could it be that not even 35% of Canadians would vote for a party opposed to the oil sands? Could it be that they are convinced it would spell economic doom for Canada, throw us into a depression, turn us into Greece? Could it be that the grand majority of Canadians believe we need free trade deals and like Greece, believe it's better to accept a bad deal than not get any deal at all?

Not everyone responds to logical arguments or is willing to devote a lot of time to understanding what is going on. Many do respond to simplistic right wing propaganda and value stability over all else. Why do so many Greeks so desperately want to stay in the euro?

I don't see a revolt happening in the states and they are worse off than we are.

In 1995 a hundred thousand people demonstrated in Montreal for unity. I am not trying to minimize what the environmental movement has accomplished nor what all the other social justice organizations have accomplished. I just don't think we are done.

What is it you think is so harmful about non-traditional Occupy style activism? What threat do you think it poses to the more organized activism?

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
What threat do you think it poses to the more organized activism?

What threat do you think it poses to anything else?

Quote:
If the March for Jobs, Justice, and the Climate was/is the solution why are the majority of people still supporting the principles of neoliberalism and balanced budgets over the common good?

If some people camping out in parks and eating vegan communal food and using the "people's microphone" was the solution, why is there still the same 1%?

Oh, I know.  Now, thanks to them, we have a special NAME for the 1% -- "the 1%" -- one step at a time.

Pondering

iyraste1313 wrote:

..the movements are already there....!?

if we've learned anything re SYRIZA surely it must be that a political institution or movement must have a clear program of transition.........

travelling in the Thompson Cariboo, facing awesome ecological destruction, (Imperial Metals, Highland Copper Taseko's Gibralter Mines...ad nauseum, I see yet no sign of any mass movement....and when surely it arises...it better be linked to some program that offers alternatives...to the oligarchy and its globalist economic and financial systems, its cultural attachment to corporate high wage slave, commodity status seeking etc....or again it will be a failure...

this is why I harp on the need for discussions here or elsewhere on what that program may look like...

Where I do see some spark of movement lies in in some of the sovereigntist oriented Indigenous Nations, where indigenous cultural respect and restoration, shutdown of the corporate ecocide agenda and a program of economic alternatives are on the table!

I think there is a certain synergy to successful revolution and that if we do have one in Canada or in the free world it will be very different from any other. It would be best if like Occupy it quickly goes international.

I don't think there can be a grand plan in advance that everyone coalesces around. I think it's a multi-step transition and that there are many organizations and brilliant individuals ready to rise with solutions as soon as the path is clear and people are willing to listen.

Transitioning away from corporate capitalism will take time. In my opinion the only way it can happen is if people understand who their real enemy is.

I read somewhere that some of the founding fathers of the US were afraid that genuine democracy would lead to the poor rising up and taking the wealth of the elite. I would imagine that is something that all elites have feared for all time. We outnumber them, by alot. In a developed democracy we can overcome them at the ballot box.

As soon as even 70% of the population understands who trade deals are written to protect the game will be up. I have no clue what trade deals that favor the people of both countries would look like, but I know there are people who do know. I don't know how fast we can ramp up production to transition away from fossil fuels without going nuclear but I know there are lots of people with that kind of expertise that would be happy to lead us.

 

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