Demand for G-20 public inquiry - Part 2

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Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

writer wrote:

Michelle, this video gives a really good sense of how the damage unfolded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5G7aCgXtWg

How much news coverage mentioned that windows were smashed at Toronto's police headquarters?

Really, truly. A billion dollars later.

The cops always wear the backpacks and the nice boots.

Life, the unive...

The thing is Tommy Paine for the unengaged- and that sadly is the vast majority of people- even if an inquiry is theatre it gives legitemacy to what people are saying- and would force the msm to report the reality of what happened- not just the police/government line.

So while agree with you I think an inquiry is a necessary (well I won't say evil- but you know what I mean).

Sean in Ottawa

I agree with Michelle that engaging is the best course and I really appreciated her post on the topic.

I think that Tinman's latest post though is so misinformed and and biased, and does not indicate openess to any new point of view so I may not want to take this on.

 

Life, the unive...

Hey I had a backpack and I think my boots are nice- not sure it is quite that easy.  There are other tells that are more indicative- such as their demeanor and how they engage others during the standing around and waiting time- which in my experience is about 70 per cent of any protest action I have been involved in.  When you are in the crowd it is not really all that hard to tell- which is why this group was so far away from the actual protest when things went on.  If they had been involved in the march- as Tinman suggests- we would have shut them down so fast it would have made their backpacks become a centrifical force.

Michelle

Well, I am thinking the same thing now, Sean.  There's only so much I can be patient with, and the whole "Hitler was a socialist" thing kind of crosses the bullshit line for me.  Sorry, Tinman, you're on your own now, but thanks for the reasonable conversation while it lasted.

remind remind's picture

Tinman is no longer in the house, as Oz never did give nothing to the tinman...not even posting privileges apparently.

writer writer's picture

The "black bloc" cop comes running into the frame from the right side @45s. He runs behind police lines with other plainclothes officers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeG_t9abaSU

Sean in Ottawa

Here is a letter I wrote my MPP (a member of the Ontario cabinet).

I include it here to enourage others to seek an explanation form the provincial government. They are the ones with the power to get to the bottom of this.

 

I am a constituent of yours. I also know you are a member of the
Provincial Cabinet.
Last week with dismay I saw the following in the media:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/06/25/g20‑new‑powers.html#socialcomments#ixzz0rrq3Rn2N
This article refers to cabinet approval to the 5‑metre extension of
the fence perimeter. As well it includes this statement that was also
widely reported:
"The regulation also says that if someone has a dispute with an
officer and it goes to court 'the police officer's statement under
oath is considered conclusive evidence under the act.'"
That statement can only be interpreted to mean that any resident whose
evidence contradicted that of a police officer would lose their right
to a fair trial.
The draconian measures announced certainly placed a chill on
legitimate protest as well as the impression that the Government of
Ontario was no longer committed to civil liberties when they were not
convenient. We were told the measures were passed in secret and
announced only on the eve of the summit. The fact that the Premier did
not immediately come out to correct the statement could only mean that
it was true or at least that the Government of Ontario wanted people
to believe it was true. It is impossible to believe that nobody in the
provincial Cabinet saw this story.
I have been asking myself how I can tolerate living in a province
governed without respect for the Canadian Constitution in particular
and human rights in general.
Then today I read that the Toronto Police Chief statements about the 5
metres was a deliberate lie. This lie was not just one that affected
the people of Toronto but all the people of Ontario who quite rightly
ought to have lost all confidence in their government and its
commitment to their most basic rights.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/police‑admit‑deliberately‑misleading‑public‑on‑expanded‑security‑fence‑law/article1622864/?cmpid=rss1

So I now have some questions:
1) Why did the Cabinet not respond to that news story, that at least
some must have seen.
2) Did the lie perpetrated on the people of Ontario include not only
the 5 metres and the illegal searches but also the statement that a
Police Officer's word would be taken as proven fact in a court
(thereby denying any possibility of a fair trial to anyone who
disputed that word?
3) How can the Provincial Cabinet restore the ability of the
population to trust them?
4) If the Cabinet did not willingly participate in this hoax will the
Cabinet now sue the Police Chief for defamation and call for his
immediate dismissal?
5) Will the Cabinet call a full public inquiry into the events of the
weekend and the role the public deception played in aggravating
citizens as well as leading others to believe they would not be safe
exercising their freedoms?
6) Will the Cabinet include in the inquiry a mandate to look at the
suppression of human rights, including alleged sexual assaults by
police officers, conditions of detention and willful neglect of their
duty to prevent damage to public property?
7) Will the Cabinet fully expose what discussions it had related to
G8/20 security impacts on residents rights?

I am sure that as a resident of Ontario you can understand my
concerns. I was not even present in Toronto during the weekend and yet
I have deep concerns about those events and the role the Ontario
Government played. Please understand I am not being hostile but these
questions are very serious for me and likely many Ontarians
contemplating what has happened. I certainly believe and hope the
Ontario government can address these and restore public confidence and
I think answers to these questions would go a long way in that regard.
Thank you very much for your interest and I am looking forward to
these clarifications.
All the best,

writer writer's picture
Tommy_Paine

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

The thing is Tommy Paine for the unengaged- and that sadly is the vast majority of people- even if an inquiry is theatre it gives legitemacy to what people are saying- and would force the msm to report the reality of what happened- not just the police/government line.

So while agree with you I think an inquiry is a necessary (well I won't say evil- but you know what I mean).

 

Well, Inquiries will have the unfortunate side effect of enriching the PR guys and lawyers, and there will be no practicle benefit.   But, I agree with you, and that's what I meant by it's "good theatre".

 

This is all "good theatre".    In this way, this has been a rather total victory for the left.  No one is talking about what a success this was for Harper.   It's exposed the Toronto police department for what it is to more and more people.   It's finally driven a stake through the heart of the idea that Liberals are progressive.   

All that's being talked about is things we've been talking about for eons.

As upsetting as all this is, it helps to keep sight of that.

 

But still.  On another hand, we have to hit back in a way that will hurt.  And I hope people with the knowledge and resources able to bring private prosecutions will do so.   Even if it ultimately ends with the Crown not persuing them, they need, as they say in football, to hear footsteps behind them.  They need to be kept on the deffensive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tinmaan

Green Grouch wrote:

Tinman. before you bow out, can we hear your thoughts on the video posted in #40? You asked, "If what you say is true about people intervening, then how could only 75 to 100 people do so much damage? something isn't adding up here folks. I do agree the Police should have intervened sooner, but that does not explain the large amount of damagbe by such a relatively small group."

I think that video offers a plausible response to your question, which I am choosing to assume you're posing in good faith. So, if there is credible evidence of police provocateurs, in what way might that answer your questions about numbers versus damage, and shift your opinion? I'm going to stretch a lot here and assume you wanted to be in on a conversation, not on a soapbox about pre-existing assumptions about protesters.

75- 100 fast moving people can do a lot in a short time, IF they are deliberately allowed to move unhindered / unrushed and IF they are aided by people planted in order to get the destructive process moving and IF they are creating damage that is costly to small business owners, trivial to large corporations, and both dramatic looking and easy to inflict. Seems to me we have all those conditions in place.

Personally, I find this video to be far more convincing than the major stretch posted by Global Research yesterday.

Well, that didn't take long. I went to watch the video as suggested, and when I returned to the site and tried to log in, I had been blocked. So much for free speech eh? Now I've had to create a new account and use a modified handle in order to rengage in the conversation.

In the inerest of fairness, I will assume that being blocked was somehow an error and not done intentionally becuase of my points of view. l certainly hope that was the case.

Life, the unive...

writer wrote:

My personal favourite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r-6cnGkp3Y

That guy wins the best video award by a mile. 

Having been in more demonstrations than I can even remember, like lots of people here, those guys behaviour is so unlike anyone else there it is easy to spot them as not being protesters.  Real protesters are funny, engaged, more than willing to chat, tell you their name, their life story, everything - even if it is a super serious march or topic.  Protesters are real people just like your neighbours- they are not stiff, cardboard cut-out characters.  It re-enforces what I said in post 54 above.

Life, the unive...

Besides compaints do you have a comment on the video?  And did you bother to read the rules under which you post under?

cruisin_turtle

writer wrote:

Have these guys been arrested? They are easy to identify. No masks.

Most likely not.  It's very disturbing that the police allowed thugs to vandalize our streets and then they cracked on university students the next day. 

From the recent interviews Bill Blair made it's becoming obvious the man is a psychopath.  He has no conscience.  It's very worrisome that he is in charge of the city's police force.

Michelle

It's so weird, too, because Blair was so reasonable during the Tamil protests last year.  What happened to the guy?  Did he have some of what Fantino was having?

Bacchus

remind wrote:

Tinman is no longer in the house, as Oz never did give nothing to the tinman...not even posting privileges apparently.

 

Um he posted right after that statement so apprently he does have posting priviledges

Tinmaan

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

Besides compaints do you have a comment on the video?  And did you bother to read the rules under which you post under?

Ok my bellyaching is over. It was an interesting video to be sure. But it lacked an important piece of information. The date. As previously aknowledged by yours truly, the police did little if anything on the first day so the date wuld be crucial to determining if this apparant lack of interest was while the likes of Millar and Blair held their men back, or if it happened afterwards. The same is true of the events that transpire in which the police seem to behave wiht a heavy hand. I do know they where told to go to the other extreme so it appeasrs they did that. Is it right? Of course not. No unneccceary use of force should be tolerated when a truly peaceful protest is underway.

As temptiung as it may be to accuse the videographer of selective editing, I will refrain from that and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Life, the unive...

So in other words your mind is totally closed and discussing with you is pointless since you are grasping at straws given there was only one time that police cars were damaged?

Tinmaan

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

So in other words your mind is totally closed and discussing with you is pointless since you are grasping at straws given there was only one time that police cars were damaged?

 

On the contrary. I am very open minded about this. If not, I wouldn't waste my time posting here. Did the events that show heavy handed tactics by Police, transpire on the same day as the burning of the squad cars and trashing of private property? it is not a complicated question when you think about it.

Bacchus

Ah my apologies remind, I just noticed to different spelling

Bacchus

Not ISP but IP N Beltov. ISP could mean we lose a ton of babblers with him.

 

And s'ok I didn't think you meant me.

Life, the unive...

Tinmaan wrote:

 

On the contrary. I am very open minded about this. If not, I wouldn't waste my time posting here. Did the events that show heavy handed tactics by Police, transpire on the same day as the burning of the squad cars and trashing of private property? it is not a complicated question when you think about it.

Yes and no- they happened before, during and after- but strangely not where all the action was.  That part just gets curiouser and curiouser as people have noted.

remind remind's picture

edited cross posted with bacchus

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Sadly, we can't yet block IP addresses. But Tinman, who perhaps would be better named Scarecrow, has been given a second heave-ho.

Bacchus

It happensLaughing

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

(Not for Baccus) Get rid of this loser. As in, block his ISP.

Edited to add: WHOOPS! That should be IP.

remind remind's picture

ya bacchus in particular in this thread it moved fast, been a while since one moved so fast here...

 

did ya read  the banned one's crap from the other thread?

 

he actually got it from freerepublic where the guy who posted it actually told the fools he was bull shitting them.

Bacchus

This does NOT surprise me

Tinman48

Catchfire wrote:

Sadly, we can't yet block IP addresses. But Tinman, who perhaps would be better named Scarecrow, has been given a second heave-ho.

So it wasn't accidental the first time.  You guys who scream about free speech don't seem to like it very much do you? At least for those who don't see things like you do. Perhaps if you couold point out the defamitory or insulting comments I made, or prove what knowingly false statments I posted that jsutified being banned twice in two hours? Oh damn, I forgot. You didn't like the looney left comment. Well in that case I extend my sincerest apologies.

writer writer's picture

And you are not a respectable, responsible citizen who signs an agreement in good faith. This space has editorial principles. Those are spelled out in the policy you agreed to abide by. You are not abiding by those principles. You are dishonourable. So you don't deserve to be here. Your spew is so very easy to find in so many different places on teh intrawebs, dude.

We believe passionately in free speech, and fully support your right to start your own discussion board. Stop squatting on ours.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Thanks, writer, for spelling it out more eloquently than I could have, had I the desire to extend that courtesy. As it happens, I don't; but alas it's all irrelevant anyway: our free-speech advocate has been asked to move on a third time.

Tinman48

writer wrote:

And you are not a respectable, responsible citizen who signs an agreement in good faith. This space has editorial principles. Those are spelled out in the policy you agreed to abide by. You are not abiding by those principles. You are dishonourable. So you don't deserve to be here. Your spew is so very easy to find in so many different places on teh intrawebs, dude.

We believe passionately in free speech, and fully support your right to start your own discussion board. Stop squatting on ours.

Brilliantly stated my friend, well done. Just one little thing though. You failed to mention just "how" I violated the journalistic principles of this website? Did I slander or deride anyone { I've already apologized for the looney left comment ] Did I knowingly post false information? Did I incite people to violence? No? So what is this violation you speak of? I am a simple man, and have a long list of faults. But if you are going to charge me with a crime against this website, at least have the courtesy to point it out rather than engage in throwing about comments concerning my respectability or level of Honouor or lack of it.

Ok, balls in your court.

Life, the unive...

I asked above, and I will ask again.  Did you bother to read the terms under which posting takes place on babble when you signed up - what 4 times now?  It appears not.

dandmb50 dandmb50's picture

A lot of good points are raised and I think the police did a bad job. But I said it a week before the summit that the anarchists/Black Bloc would be attacking places where cops were not building riot lines.

Robo Cop?

And it seems they did just that. We must remember the police do not have "mind melts" I know they do have radios but they don't know what is happening at Queen/Yonge when they are at Spadina/Queen.

It is my feeling that they should have had police in every spot that they normally do since they did have extra police but I walked from Queen/Yonge Saturday night at 7pm from there to College/Yonge and did not see one cop but I did see lot's of broken windows. It was badly controlled as to where they had the police stationed and it appeared they were playing cat/mouse with the protesters moving from place to place with no real plan.

Why were they "beating" citizens at Queens Park (designated) free speech zone and rushing people singing OUR National Anthem on Queen at Spadina? These questions must be answered, and NO we will not just move on and forget what happened. What happened was wrong, and the sooner those responsible give us answers the better. Some would say our great cops have been doing this for years if you talk to those in some parts of the city. I recommend an inquiry into this where all facts will come out.

Daniel .. Toronto

writer writer's picture

When I see broken windows at police headquarters, I am no longer willing to suspend disbelieve. This stinks. This just stinks.

I mean, really. Maybe they weren't prepared for action everywhere in the city. But there are police in police headquarters.

Tinman 480

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

I asked above, and I will ask again.  Did you bother to read the terms under which posting takes place on babble when you signed up - what 4 times now?  It appears not.

Actually yes I did, and yes 4 times. that is why I am asking for evidence of the violations you claim I am guilty of. Ball back to you. [ booted 3 times in two hours from a website that claims to believe in free speech must be some kinda record }

writer writer's picture

In true libertarian spirit, I announce that we owe you nothing. Hang around and develop a clue. Or perhaps you walk into the homes of families of friends, piss on their floor, say that it is in your rights, apologize, then ask why you haven't been served tea yet.

You might not believe in community and communal behaviour. We do. We have developed a culture here. And you are behaving ... oh, I don't know ... like a rude, provocative, ignorant protester smashing windows and expecting to be kissed for the effort.

skdadl

Tinman, you are free to speak in any public place you choose. Try the sidewalk in front of Toronto police headquarters. Ask if they mind if you smash a window or two of their museum.

writer, I agree. After this weekend, I think my default position on the black bloc has become "provocateurs." You're not a provocateur? Prove it.

Apart from all the videos we've seen, the thing that nags at my mind most is the way they all made their getaway at Queen's Park, leaving a lot of innocents to take the brunt of the police assault. Man ... that ... stinks.

Tinman 480

writer wrote:

In true libertarian spirit, I announce that we owe you nothing. Hang around and develop a clue. Or perhaps you walk into the homes of families of friends, piss on their floor, say that it is in your rights, apologize, then ask why you haven't been served tea yet.

You might not believe in community and communal behaviour. We do. We have developed a culture here. And you are behaving ... oh, I don't know ... like a rude, provocative, ignorant protester smashing windows and expecting to be kissed for the effort.

There is a huge diffference between "pissing on someones floor" and posing a different point of view. You chastize me and call me rude andI'm ok with that. I thought forums like this one where the place to go so you can express ideas and concepts without fear of being insulted or attacked for them. Defeat the logic behind my arguments, good for you. But to continually boot me from an open forum because you don't like how I think? Hardly a jouornalistic standrd worthy of upholding is it.

George Victor

Perhaps the public inquiry could be expanded to include the elements invited by the PM. My favourite letter in the G and M today (and alsmost all lettrs were favourable to our cause) was from Alan R. Lawrence:

"At the end of the G20, Stephen Harper lamented, 'the unfortunate reality is that these  summits attract a certain thuggish criminal element.'  I agree with the PM. He didn't have to invite leaders of countries that deprive their citizens of bvsic human rights, confiscate resources that belong to the people, or whose security forces kill people with impunity."

And I would not lament the absence of the Tinmen.  Life is too short to have to go into the explanation of the difference between socialism and National Socialism. How someone can be so determined to demonstrate his ignorance is beyond me.

Tinman 480

"....And I would not lament the absence of the Tinmen.  Life is too short to have to go into the explanation of the difference between socialism and National Socialism. How someone can be so determined to demonstrate his ignorance is beyond me..."

 

Thanks George, I like you too.Wink

writer writer's picture

I know the difference between pissing on floors and being a challenging, thoughtful contributor. We have those here. You had a bit of promise, which is why Michelle engaged. You have also been full of piss, and been quite obnoxious. You are also not posting from the left, which is the persective this board was created to nurture. So you are a guest. An obnoxious guest, who is spouting uninformed shit about us we could get from many other mainstream sources. Not interesting. Not why this board was created. Not part of our mandate. Not fitting our editorial interests.

You don't cut it. Maybe you'll learn how to, but as of now, you've been disrespectful, obnoxious, leaned on stereotyping ... and demanded much while giving very little. Not a good citizen of the babble community. And you've "tricked" your way in here several times over. Even more obnoxious.

If you want some education about how to be a better member here, send and email to the moderators. Maybe you can convince them that you're ready to return. In the meantime, this is my last message to you, in whatever tinman iteration you want to come back in.

You're not the first trying to get the best of a progressive board. You're not the most interesting.

George Victor

You make it impossible to reciprocate in like terms, bro.   Too much hate bottled up in that old cranium of yours.

edmundoconnor

observer521 wrote:

Weirdly, The Sun's Warmington is actually telling it like it is.

Blimey. It must be bad.

Although the commenters come to the rescue, I see. I stopped reading the comments after it was suggested the demonstrators should have been machine-gunned.

Tommy_Paine

 

 

 

Banksy was in Toronto recently.  We're a creative bunch, take a page from his style, and stencil the city crazy with whatever you can think of, so people never forget.

 

We saw not to long ago how candids were employed against TTC workers.   Maybe the same can be done for Toronto's Fascisits.

 

observer521

I personally saw most of what happened with my own eyes, as detailed in other posts at this site.

 

Its beyond shocking what has happened to Toronto. This is one for the history books,  as the facts continue to come out. This could end up being the largest, in terms of numbers, the largest violation of civil liberties in Canadian history. And so far,  all 3 levels of gov't only care about protecting their own careers and interests. Its a scary situation for the citizen.

But as far as the vandals not getting arrested as they were breaking windows for 2 hours,  that is beyond suspicious. The police were ordered not to arrest the vandals for 2 hours,  and then that gave them a pretext to attack everyone else.

I asked a senior police commander on the street, why he didn't have his people arrest the vandals as they were coming up Queen and Yonge, and he gave a bunch of false answers, the talking points Blair is using. But by the end, he was saying that I should have personally arrested them! Notice how that is the same talking point being used by many current police apologists. They are trying to tell the citizens of Toronto that they have to protect themselves, that the police are not going to do it. Ok, but then how do you protect yourself against the abuses of power by the police?  

Its incredible the level of "propaganda" that is being used right now on the citizens.

Something outrageous has happened in Toronto. Really, the only way to really fight back, is an army of civil rights attorneys,  and activists, has to figure out how to blowback, and quick. The security state with unchecked police power has been attempted. Those in power like it, the police like it. The security state is trying to roll back the clock more than 50 years. The streets of Toronto right now, are still not safe for anyone who dares to raise up their head. They can and will be arrested, and the system is not helping them.

There is no question,  that this entire episode, is literally a type of social engineering, right from the top, to increase the power of those in power, and to suppress those who try to speak out. The politicians themselves are very afraid, as can be seen by their silence. Toronto right now is "scary" and that is the way they want it. They want the public and others to fear the police system, as that keeps things in check for them. It targets political dissent. With all of the cops openly doing illegal searches all up Yonge St,  throwing people in vans in snatch-and-grabs, that is 3rd world stuff.

This entire social engineering experiment has come from the top-down, and its very strange how even some "left-wing" people in power themselves, are supporting it. As they say, power corrupts.

Perhaps the only main ray of hope, is that they over-reached their powers so far, and did such a clumsly job of it, with the brazen lies, that perhaps it might blow up in their face. Perhaps.

If one were a conspiracy theorist, which I am not, one could predict that if this doesn't work, there might just be more "disorder" which gives the excuse to crack down even more.

 

A cityTV reporter describes how the vandals ran around for a couple hours, and not one police lifted a finger. How can the police commanders and chief, possibly get away with this?

Personal Story: How I Ended Up In A G20 Jail - CityNews http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/80075--how-i-e...

Durrutix

Have any of these "NDP" folks uniquivocally and without consultation condemned the vicious brutality against the "protestrs"?  

I'm hopin yes. 

If we can't rely on our own "party" to support us when the pinch comes then there's really no point.

writer writer's picture

No looting, right? Not that nobody tried. Luckily, someone with real expertise and precision when it comes to takedowns was handy here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CKkLYYczdM

I mean, Toronto cops would have looked *really* bad if this had gone so far as general looting of all those stores with broken windows. Including police headquarters.

remind remind's picture

blahblah blah blah [email protected] post 97, not writers

cruisin_turtle

Observer521, that was amazing.  Thanks for sharing.

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