G8/G20: It's coming

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NDPP

Canada's CONservatives to Push For Iran Sanctions

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/3347

"....also absent from serious scrutiny at the summit was the massive US nuclear stockpile or any criticism of the Israeli nuclear program. 'As far as Israel goes I'm not going to comment on their program,' said Obama. The Canadian government ahs issued no criticism of the existence of Israel's nuclear arsenal, even though they have pushed for Iran to end its nuclear program. The fact that Israel is left out of the discussion is not an accident according to Shourideh Molavi, a Toronto based Iranian writer.

'Canada is moving toward a second phase of a major policy project they have already started, which is to develop deeper ties with Israel, in regards to security and military policy,' said Molavi. 'So when it comes to Iran they want to use the G8 as a platform to push for sanctions..'

Canada's intense support for the Israeli government has shaped a new ear of Canada-Israel relations. Ottawa has arguably emerged as the staunchest pro-Israel capital in the world.

'Canada is so friendly that there was no need to convince or explain anything to anyone,' said right wing Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman after a recent meeting in Ottawa.."

This is what Netanyahu will talk about with Harper and the next day with Obama...

thorin_bane

Well that is a consumable,  manpower is wateful if it only provides a service(like this). Wind turbines leave the impression that governments can do something right with money. Cant have that.

They want all canadians to hate government, This iis the stated goal. This allows corporate control to be easier. Their supporters actually believe that cons believe in small governement when all signs point otherwise(they believe that police army and spying is exceptable use of tax dollars just not commy stuff like education health or road repairs)

So the cons don't lose support but actually increase it in those that hate government while making other apathetic thus making their rediculous base support more powerful. If the other parties got just another 10 of eligible voters to believe in their platforms, no matter how it would break(lib/bc ndp green) it would be a significant change in the polls. but it is also true that the opposite works when peopel just get tired and stop voting, making the hard core cons that much more powerful.

NDPP

Police State Toronto: Op 'Active Attackers' - Terror Drill Caught on Tape (and vid)

http://pressfortruth.ca/terror_drill_114.html

Practicing for G8-G20 and...?

BillBC

Which option would you prefer - the security or the wind turbines?

I'd far rather have the turbines, but do turbines really last for twenty years, with low maintenance?

NDPP

Travers: Summits Have Become Anachronisms

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/815956--travers-summit-costs-...

"Next month's G8 and G20 summits are a self-fulfilling prophecy. World leaders make themselves a beckoning target and then shakes down taxpayers for $1Billion in protection..."

NDPP

'It Was Really Brutal'

http://thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2010/05/27/FairmontProtest/

"What really happened outside the Fairmont Hotel at the G8 University Summit protest.."

NDPP

From Ski Hills To Summits: Indigenous Activists Challenge Canada's Claims..

http://mostlywater.org/ski_hills_summit

'The G8/G20 impacts Indigenous peoples because Canada who's hosting the session, is actually claiming they have 100 percent exclusive power, jurisdiction, [and] authority over Aboriginal and treaty territories, and that's totally wrong..."

Red_and_Black Red_and_Black's picture

Cytizen H wrote:

Noah_Scape wrote:

[ I used to want change, but now that I am being lumped in with and classified as an anarchist, I might as well act like one

Act like an anarchist? Like, what, you mean doing anti-oppression and anti-colonial work in small groups, based in communities, with no centralized power structure? That's what you meant, right? 'cuz i'm sure you weren't just being a jerk about it.

It drives me nuts that people feel that anarchism is synonymous with violence in spite of their complete ignorance of what anarchism actually is

Cytizen H

A PEOPLE'S VISIT TO THE METRO TORONTO CONVENTION CENTRE

Start: 06/08/2010 10:00

End: 06/08/2010 11:30

Timezone: Canada/Eastern

 

JUNE 8 2010
222 Bremner Boulevard, Metro Toronto Convention Centre
10AM - 1130AM

 

Bring Large Placards and Signs Describing the Worlds We Wish to Live In

We've spent the last eight months knocking on doors, talking to families, friends and neighbours, arranging transportation and accommodation, gathering food, sleeping bags and tents and supporting over a dozen actions that will take place between June 21-27, 2010. Thousands of people are planning to attend these events that will showcase the world we wish to live in.

Throughout all this, the G20 leaders have remained in hiding, while their lackeys, the Toronto Police, the RCMP, CSIS and now the Integrated Security Unit have harassed and intimidated organizers, bought themselves CAD $1,100,000,000 worth of weapons, fences and thugs and made plans to turn the city into a residents' nightmare.

Of course, for us, this isn't about the cops, it's about the G20's anti-people and anti-environmental policies. So on June 8th, we are going up to the Metro Toronto Convention Centre with large placards describing the world we wish to live in. A world with Indigenous Sovereignty and Self-Determination, Environmental and Climate Justice, Migrant Justice and an End to War and Occupation, Income Equity and Community Control over Resources, Gender Justice and Queer and disAbility Rights.

We invite everyone to join us with their own signs and placards. And your own cameras and recorders. On a walk through the Metro Toronto Convention Centre. The G20's policies impact our communities everywhere - our resistance is also everywhere.

NOTE: Speakers at this event include people who have faced police intimidation and violence, organizers from the summit legal project and community organizers.

http://g20.torontomobilize.org/

jacki-mo

sonic canons to be used against protesters:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/05/27/14146366.html

 

thorin_bane

Latest news is a 2 million dollar lake to be constructed for the summit. Seriously?

SparkyOne

Quote:

We invite everyone to join us with their own signs and placards. And your own cameras and recorders. On a walk through the Metro Toronto Convention Centre. The G20's policies impact our communities everywhere - our resistance is also everywhere.

 

NOTE: Speakers at this event include people who have faced police intimidation and violence, organizers from the summit legal project and community organizers.

 

I have a hard time seeing the point of this. I'm really thinking twice about attending. Any sort of civilized protest or speakers speaking will be drown out by the violent assholes there who get off on fighting with the police. The police will turn around and use that as an excuse to go after EVERYONE. Do you think the media really cares what we think or what we're saying? All they care about is videotaping some punks smashing windows or clashes with the police.

We need a group of volunteers who will go around and unmask all these people take pictures of them commiting crimes and give that to police. Maybe then the rest of us will be able to actually reach people with our message and not be backround noise.

Polunatic2

Art Gallery of Ontario to shutter during G20 summit

Quote:
The AGO is just north of the restricted zone for the summit of world leaders. Other events closing during the summit include the CN Tower and theatre performances of Rock of Ages and Mamma Mia! 

kropotkin1951

SparkyOne wrote:

Quote:

We invite everyone to join us with their own signs and placards. And your own cameras and recorders. On a walk through the Metro Toronto Convention Centre. The G20's policies impact our communities everywhere - our resistance is also everywhere.

 

NOTE: Speakers at this event include people who have faced police intimidation and violence, organizers from the summit legal project and community organizers.

 

I have a hard time seeing the point of this. I'm really thinking twice about attending. Any sort of civilized protest or speakers speaking will be drown out by the violent assholes there who get off on fighting with the police. The police will turn around and use that as an excuse to go after EVERYONE. Do you think the media really cares what we think or what we're saying? All they care about is videotaping some punks smashing windows or clashes with the police.

We need a group of volunteers who will go around and unmask all these people take pictures of them commiting crimes and give that to police. Maybe then the rest of us will be able to actually reach people with our message and not be backround noise.

The above poster forgot to post the link to the organization behind the events that this poster feels privileged enough to discount and slander.

http://g20.torontomobilize.org/

 

Sparky please don't go to any demonstrations if you intend to act as a police informant.  I find your post both disturbing and vile.  Maybe your little band can all dress the same.  May I suggest brown would be a good colour for your shirts as you help the police unmask the evil anarchists.

Polunatic2

G8 fake lake deserves a name, protesters say

 

Quote:
 The Council of Canadians says the fake lake that G8 organizers are building inside their Toronto media centre deserves a name. The protest group is applying to the Geographical Names Board of Canada to have the artificial indoor lake named “Harper’s Folly.

”Officials stress that the $1.9-million cost is split between the federal and provincial governments, and that the bill is not just for the lake. It’s also for a replica of the Toronto Stock Exchange, and other presentations that showcase the City of Toronto and tourism in Ontario.

I wonder if there's a replica of the OFL building too? 

 

SparkyOne

kropotkin1951 wrote:

SparkyOne wrote:

Quote:

We invite everyone to join us with their own signs and placards. And your own cameras and recorders. On a walk through the Metro Toronto Convention Centre. The G20's policies impact our communities everywhere - our resistance is also everywhere.

 

NOTE: Speakers at this event include people who have faced police intimidation and violence, organizers from the summit legal project and community organizers.

 

I have a hard time seeing the point of this. I'm really thinking twice about attending. Any sort of civilized protest or speakers speaking will be drown out by the violent assholes there who get off on fighting with the police. The police will turn around and use that as an excuse to go after EVERYONE. Do you think the media really cares what we think or what we're saying? All they care about is videotaping some punks smashing windows or clashes with the police.

We need a group of volunteers who will go around and unmask all these people take pictures of them commiting crimes and give that to police. Maybe then the rest of us will be able to actually reach people with our message and not be backround noise.

The above poster forgot to post the link to the organization behind the events that this poster feels privileged enough to discount and slander.

http://g20.torontomobilize.org/

 

Sparky please don't go to any demonstrations if you intend to act as a police informant.  I find your post both disturbing and vile.  Maybe your little band can all dress the same.  May I suggest brown would be a good colour for your shirts as you help the police unmask the evil anarchists.

 

My friends and I are putting a lot of time money and effort into attending this. Tell me kropotkin are you actually attending or are you just going to post about it?

I have no problems with taking pictures of people breaking the law and giving it to the police if it keeps them off my back. Maybe you think vandalisim is harmless and getting the riot cops all juiced up is all good in the name of free speech but I don't. The assholes that love the camera and love their bandanas smashing windows and breaking stuff are no friends of mine. They give the rest of us a bad name and why we're spending millions of dollars on security when it is desperately needed elsewhere.

Rikardo

I support Chezhank and SparkyOne's call to boycott the Summit.  Attend the People's Summit before the G8G20 but make the Harper government look even worse for the $1billion on security by not protesting.  It feels great to carry a sign but really: Does it do any good ?

Polunatic2

Notwithstanding the "debate" about tactics (and I don't disagree about smashing things), I doubt that has any impact on the spending orgy that will highlight both Canada's conspicuous consumption and undemocratic restraints on freedom of expression, speech and movement. Between the Olympics and G8/G20, more than $2 billion has been poured into "security". If neither had taken place, that money would never be put into programs where they're desperately needed. 

Cytizen H

SparkyOne wrote:

My friends and I are putting a lot of time money and effort into attending this. Tell me kropotkin are you actually attending or are you just going to post about it?

I have no problems with taking pictures of people breaking the law and giving it to the police if it keeps them off my back. Maybe you think vandalisim is harmless and getting the riot cops all juiced up is all good in the name of free speech but I don't. The assholes that love the camera and love their bandanas smashing windows and breaking stuff are no friends of mine. They give the rest of us a bad name and why we're spending millions of dollars on security when it is desperately needed elsewhere.

That you think you have the right to tell others how they should or should not protest is ludicrous. The fact that you would align yourself with the police shows that you have no understanding of what direct action means. It is commendable that you would put energy and resources into coming to Toronto for the summit to have your voice. That you would so callously dismiss your allies and show such smug self righteousness about it is dispicable. Simply vile.

Have you been paying attention to the communiques? Have you been talking to organizers? Reaching out to anyone? If you are from out of town, as it appears from your post, then you of course cannot bbe faulted for not attending meetings, but for the fuck's sake try and learn a little about the movement you are joining before you decide to piss all over it.

Those "assholes" with the bandanas are the same ones who are organizing the days of action, the tent cities, the sleeping arrangements, the food, the media liaisons. They are the ones who will be protecting the Native elders at the marches. You say they are not your friends? That is clear. But you are no friend to any movement for justice if you are willing to rat people to the cops and feel proud of it!!

If any protesters give the movement a bad name it is you and your ilk... those that would buy right into the mainstream media narratives and give them fodder for their bullshit.

Shame on you. Narc.

kropotkin1951

I am not sure who these people are that are posting this slander but I note that the People's Summit website has a link on its Home Page to the G8/G20 TCML Home page.

It seems only on babble do some leftists think they are the true patriots of our home on native land.  

In the real world that the real organizers of the People's Summit live in you built bridges. Only fools and agent provocateurs try to create disunity where none exists.  The march is sponsored by the Toronto Community Mobilization Network.  It is one of the groups represented on the board of People's Summit.  Was there a falling out we haven't heard about.  Has the TCML been thrown off the board for one of their events.

I don't know the agenda of the people spreading this disinformation but this campaign to stop a protest march seems very disingenuous.  

And no I will not be traveling to Hog Town for a protest. But I was at a nice one the other day in Vancouver protesting against the murderous IDF attack on the aid ship.

http://peoplessummit2010.ca/section/2

 

Quote:

Who Are We?

We are people working for solidarity, self-determination, human rights, justice, peace, a healthy planet, and transformative social change. We are groups that question the status quo and the supremacy of global capitalism. We are a movement of many movements, organizing for the other world we know is possible.

The People’s Summit is being coordinated by a committee made up of members of non governmental and civil society organizations, as well as non-affiliated peoples. Currently, membership consists of representatives from the Canadian Federation of Students, Canadian Labour Congress, the Canadian Peace Alliance, Council of Canadians,  CUPE Ontario, Greenpeace Canada, Ontario Council for International Cooperation, Oxfam Canada,  Polaris Institute, the Rainforest Action Network, the Sierra Youth Coalition, the Toronto Climate Campaign, and the Toronto Community Mobilization Network. We encourage a diversity of voices to contribute to the vision of the People’s Summit, and welcome your ideas and participation. Contact us at [email protected] to get involved!

 

SparkyOne

Cytizen H wrote:

 

Those "assholes" with the bandanas are the same ones who are organizing the days of action, the tent cities, the sleeping arrangements, the food, the media liaisons. They are the ones who will be protecting the Native elders at the marches. You say they are not your friends? That is clear. But you are no friend to any movement for justice if you are willing to rat people to the cops and feel proud of it!!

Bullshit.

The Bandana wearing rock throwing spray painting assholes are not organizers. Who are you trying to fool? 

One of my jobs is to help with sleeping arrangements (which are a frickin nightmare) and contact grocery stores in my area to try and get them to donate food and water both for us and the homeless. Are you seriously telling me the people who are smashing private and public properity are the good guys? Not just the good guys but the ones in charge? Yea thanks for coming out.  If you think the G8\20 summit protests are about that kind of behavior then I agree you're no friend of mine.

Quote:

Shame on you. Narc.

If it means our message gets heard and someones car doesn`t get set on fire or windows smashed then that`s fine by me.

 

Here`s an idea. lets have a protest and it not turn violent

If you saw a bunch of guys smashing your neighbours car would you call the police.  How is this any different.

kropotkin1951

You are taking it upon yourself to say which protests people should attend?  Did you inherit that right? As I said above the organizers of the Peoples Summit include the people organizing this particular event.  Why are you saying don't attend?  What is your motivation in targeting this event and not all the other events and marches scheduled?  WTF

Or are you saying that no one should go to any marches at all and they should all restrict themselves to the campus grounds and the People's Summit lectures?  

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

The president of the International Aids Aociety was just on P&P condemning the G8 for fulfilling only 40% of its commitment made in 2005 to fight AIDS/HIV, and said Harper and co. can not move on to "another issue" (maternal health) while leaving the problem of AIDS/HIV behind - because maternal health in the developing world is being so severly affected by AIDS/HIV.

Cytizen H

Look.

If I gave the impression that everyone who is violent at a protest is an organizer, or that all of the organizers engage in structural violence or property damage, then I have been misunderstood.

I don't want to get into specifics, because you have already stated your intention of turning people in to the police, but I can tell you for a fact people who are organizing against the G20, and who do endless good works, have also participated in Black Bloc actions. In Vancouver the Black Bloc demonstrators did indeed provide security for FN elders. They did security all night, every night at the tent city. This is just fact. You might not like it, but that doesn't change things.

Not being willing to differentiate between protestors who practice targeted destruction of property and those who throw rocks at cops (who, more often than not, have turned out to be cops themselves!) puts you on par with the non-thinking public who are willing to lump in the non-violent majority with the window smashing minority. You have to look beyond the National Pest's portrayal of what goes on.

If you think that the message of non-violent protesters would be heard any better if a few Starbucks were left with their windows intact, I would have to disagree with you.

I, personally, do not practice violence. I believe strongly in direct action. I believe in standing up against the injustices at home and abroad, towards the marginalized and oppressed. I believe in standing up and not being intimidated by the insane militarization of our city. I believe in inviting one and all who oppose the G20 to make their voices heard. I believe in inclucivity. I believe in debate and respect for a diversity of tactics. And for this you say I am not your friend?

Who do you think is hurting the movement more.

kropotkin1951

I also know some of the people in Vancouver and was right beside the Black Bloc outside BC Place and they were there as security for the Elders.  I saw that with my own eyes and I saw the relationship between the Elders and their security force.  They were disciplined and acted on the Elders request not otherwise. I also know that people who have good government and NGO jobs and come from marginalized backgrounds have a very good reason to fear having their faces exposed to the police.  

I hope you answer my inquiry as to why boycott this particular march. 

SparkyOne

I'll conceed that there are people who hide their faces for very good reasons.  Someone only needs to look at the church of sciontology and the amount of harassment they are responsible for.

Let me try and make my point clear.

Causing violence and destruction have no place at the G8\20 as far as I'm concerned.  It's useless. It doesn't help anything. Destroying a bankmachine doesn't send a message to the world bank. It makes people get charged $1.50 by using the bankmachine a few blocks over that's not their bank. Or they just have farther to walk.

Smashing windows and breaking cars and stuff? Again useless. What message does it send?  I'll tell you what it does. It causes the media to zoom in on them and ignore the rest of us who actually have something to say.

I heard a good quote once in reply to someone saying ideas are impossible to kill.

"No they're not. Just make the idea popular with idiots"  It's so true.  Whats one of the reasons why more people aren't involved with the protests? They don't want to be associated with the bullshit they see on TV. I've spoken with people and got a positive response and a lot of interested from people. All they read about and see regarding the summit is protestors clashing with police.

All I'm saying with my comments is that yes I have no problem "ratting out" the people using violence making the protest about them. Drawing attention away from the real issues. You think any of the world leaders are gonna even get a wiff of the protests and violence? Not a chance. 

Like I said, would you call the cops if you saw someone smashing a car or breaking windows or spray painting someones house or business tomorrow morning?  How about if someone was doing it to you, would you want someone to call the police? Or would you let it slide because they are expressing themselves?  Maybe they don't like Ford so their taking it out on your new Focus.

There are hardcore professional "rioters" the same you find at soccer games int he UK and such.  These aren't the people that want to protect native american elders. I'm sure there are some protector people out there but the people I'm talking about aren't it. They just want to cause shit, I have no sympathy for them and hope they all get arrested. If that makes me a big bad girl here with no friends then that's fine.

I'm ready to pull my fucking hair out dealing with people (with my org) who seem to care more about fucking around and causing shit than planning, fact checking getting audio equipment. Can you imagine how much over time is being paid out to the cops? They probably want riots more than anyone, and their laughing about it. Oh I think I hurt my back, I better go on a month paid vacation so I get better.

 

I simply can't agree. There is no reason for "targeted destruction".  You're hurting people for nothing. You might think it's sending a message but it's not.  Have fun ruining peoples shit.

Freedom 55

SparkyOne wrote:

Whats one of the reasons why more people aren't involved with the protests? They don't want to be associated with the bullshit they see on TV. I've spoken with people and got a positive response and a lot of interested from people. All they read about and see regarding the summit is protestors clashing with police.

 

I think a bigger reason more people aren't involved in protests is because they can see that our planet is being murdered and yet the only response that's deemed appropriate and legitimate is the tired routine of an hour+ worth of speeches - so the 'leaders' of each and every NGO and trade union can all get their face-time - followed (or preceded) by a short stroll through the streets so everyone can get the 'hey-heys' and the 'ho-hos' out of their systems, all wrapped-up early enough so everyone can get home in time for supper.

 

People look at that and think, "Even they don't take themselves seriously. Why should I get involved with people who can't even figure-out the appropriate level of outrage?"

 

I'm not arguing that black-blocers have the system on the ropes either, but anyone who thinks the revolution would happen if only a few more of our co-workers and neighbours could hear some NGO 'leader' give the same speech for the 40th time is seriously deluded.

kropotkin1951

I have been marching since before the Black Bloc against globalization summits.  It is bullshit to say that the Black Bloc stopped the participation.  In 1997 the Black Bloc did nothing but the protesters who tried to block a caravan including Butcher of East Timor.  The peaceful demonstrators were pepper sprayed and beaten and arrested. Police violence occurs anyways.

But go ahead rewrite history and blame the groups who have arisen in the last ten years in reaction to the police violence. I think people don't protest because they like their nice comfortable lives that our association with the imperial empire gives us.  We used to get 10's of thousands to peace rallies in the late 80's now the Sun Fun Run gets the largest crowds.  It took many years but Canadians have gotten the individualistic message very well. The Black Bloc arose as a response to police violence the police violence came first.  Canadians know that they can have no effect on their government so they put their heads down and they try not to rock the boat.  Head down and ass up is the best individual response to a totalitarian state if your personal safety is your driving concern.  So stick your head in the sand a little further and keep spreading the myth that the Black Bloc caused the violence not the police.

If there was a fire at your neighbours home would you break the windows to wake them up?  

The following quote tells me you have no concept of solidarity or working with others in a group. What gives you the right to attack not only the Black Bloc but also your coworkers trying to organize events.  I guess the movement should just make you the Supreme Leader and listen to only your voice. Oh exalted one who knows better than all others involved what should we do next that meets with your standards?

Quote:

'm ready to pull my fucking hair out dealing with people (with my org) who seem to care more about fucking around and causing shit than planning, fact checking getting audio equipment. Can you imagine how much over time is being paid out to the cops?

 

Noah_Scape

kropot makes a good point about police violence coming first. I think the fact that there were "agent provocateurs" showing up at rallies and protests proves that point. It is the politicians who want violence - because it "radicalises" the protest movement and average people will not identify with it. RIGHT??

 As for the motivation to protest, violently or not - the economy is tilted to favour the elite wealthy, the environment is being trashed, and the war machine is in high gear - that is not the Canadian way!! And more Canadians would be protesting except for the fact that the radicalisation ploy worked pretty well.

Also, if they need this much security, it can only be that they are pissing a lot of people off. And they are.

---

I also wanted to add a cynical thought to the $1.1 Billion cost of security: Maybe "host leaders" are expected to show the other leaders "how much can we abuse the electorate and still get away with it". The other leaders must be patting Harper on the back for wasting $1B when $100 million spent on security would have been enough to do the job. Possible quote from other leaders: "You fucked them right over and they can't do a thing about it - well done Steve, you are one of us".

If they were to do it right, they would hold these meetings in Ottawa, and build permanent "government convention centre" there with that $1.1Billion, maybe near the Parliament buildings so that security would be easy to provide.

 

 

Krystalline Kraus Krystalline Kraus's picture

G8/G20 Communiqué: Warriors for peace - RISE UP!       

By Krystalline Kraus | June 8, 2010 | www.rabble.ca

 

http://www.rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/statica/2010/06/g8g20-communiqu%C3%A9-warriors-peace-rise

 

There is a difference in motivation between a community rising up like a pride of lions to defend itself and the kind of acting-out activism of "you've hurt me so now I'm going to hurt you back!".

kalin

SparkyOne wrote:

One of my jobs is to help with sleeping arrangements (which are a frickin nightmare) and contact grocery stores in my area to try and get them to donate food and water both for us and the homeless.

If it means our message gets heard and someones car doesn`t get set on fire or windows smashed then that`s fine by me.

It doesn't sound like your 'job' is arranging housing as part of the TCMN as you don't seem to know much about the network or the convergence. Labour? Large NGO? What's the organization arranging its own out-of-town sleeping arrangements?

Who exactly are you trying to reach with your message? "World leaders"? "The public"? What is the message? What inherently makes people more inclined to listen to tame, passive protest that is in fact just as easy, if not easier, to ignore?

Cytizen H

SparkyOne wrote:

Quote:

We invite everyone to join us with their own signs and placards. And your own cameras and recorders. On a walk through the Metro Toronto Convention Centre. The G20's policies impact our communities everywhere - our resistance is also everywhere.

 

NOTE: Speakers at this event include people who have faced police intimidation and violence, organizers from the summit legal project and community organizers.

 

I have a hard time seeing the point of this. I'm really thinking twice about attending. Any sort of civilized protest or speakers speaking will be drown out by the violent assholes there who get off on fighting with the police. The police will turn around and use that as an excuse to go after EVERYONE. Do you think the media really cares what we think or what we're saying? All they care about is videotaping some punks smashing windows or clashes with the police.

We need a group of volunteers who will go around and unmask all these people take pictures of them commiting crimes and give that to police. Maybe then the rest of us will be able to actually reach people with our message and not be backround noise.

Just got back from this event.

It was a press conference. About a dozen activists and community organizers were met by over a hundred police officers on horseback, bicycle, armed with autmoatic weapons. They had a bus full of cops parked around the corner. Snipers were on the roof. The speakers at the press conference spoke about police intimidation and brutality. They spoke of the visits by CSIS and the insane militarization of our city at ludicrous expense. The representative from 52 division claimed that the police presence was not a display of force and that they were graciously "allowing protesters to voice their opinion". Thanks officer.

Polunatic2

Quote:
I think a bigger reason more people aren't involved in protests is because they can see that our planet is being murdered and yet the only response that's deemed appropriate and legitimate is the tired routine of an hour+ worth of speeches - so the 'leaders' of each and every NGO and trade union can all get their face-time - followed (or preceded) by a short stroll through the streets so everyone can get the 'hey-heys' and the 'ho-hos' out of their systems, all wrapped-up early enough so everyone can get home in time for supper.

Here's some more...

Quote:
All SOAR events celebrate a diversity of tactics, meaning that we support all the many different ways that people choose to resist our common enemies. We will not condemn or attempt to prevent or control actions being taken by others, and will vigorously resist state repression against anyone. That said, respect for diversity of tactics also means not smashing things while we're part of the labour child-friendly march, and remembering that although we might think certain tactics are pointless/annoying, we should not needlessly antagonize those people.

Wink, wink, nod, nod. "Pointless. Annoying. Tired. Don't  needlessly antagonize "allies"? Where's the respect for "diversity of tactics"? Or does it only cut one way. You don't want people to criticize your choice of tactics but you seem quite prepared to publicly shit on the organizers and participants of other events because they're not "militant" enough for you. And who decides what is "needless"?

Cytizen H

Polunatic2 wrote:

Quote:
All SOAR events celebrate a diversity of tactics, meaning that we support all the many different ways that people choose to resist our common enemies. We will not condemn or attempt to prevent or control actions being taken by others, and will vigorously resist state repression against anyone. That said, respect for diversity of tactics also means not smashing things while we're part of the labour child-friendly march, and remembering that although we might think certain tactics are pointless/annoying, we should not needlessly antagonize those people.

Wink, wink, nod, nod. "Pointless. Annoying. Tired. Don't  needlessly antagonize "allies"? Where's the respect for "diversity of tactics"? Or does it only cut one way. You don't want people to criticize your choice of tactics but you seem quite prepared to publicly shit on the organizers and participants of other events because they're not "militant" enough for you. And who decides what is "needless"?

I agree that this communique from SOAR chose some poor language to express this point. But it appears that you are deliberately missing the point. A lot of public talk about respecting diversity of tactics has been in response to attacks from prominent activists against the black bloc tactics in Vancouver, and from individual such as Sparky (above) and adharden (on another thread) who would try and limit who is allowed to express themselves and how. The point that SOAR is making is that while they may not agree with other tactics, they will make no attempt to interfere with them or publically criticize them.

SparkyOne

kropotkin1951 wrote:

If there was a fire at your neighbours home would you break the windows to wake them up?  

LOL you're grasping at straws with this one. I would call the fire department then bang on the door or courage willing go inside. Broken glass and little shoeless feet trying to escape a fire don't mix well. I know that's not the sense you meant it in though.

Smashing bank machines is going to wake the world up to the problems with the economy right? LOL

For every $5000 bank machine your friends smash the banks probably put in a $10'000 insurence claim. Way to show the man.

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 What gives you the right to attack not only the Black Bloc but also your coworkers trying to organize events.  I guess the movement should just make you the Supreme Leader and listen to only your voice. Oh exalted one who knows better than all others involved what should we do next that meets with your standards?

When their main focus is on fucking with the police and causing destruction and havok then yea I'm going to have a problem with it. My iussue isn't with the men and women organizing events even when we don't agree. We sit down and come to a compromise. The people I'm talking about don't give a shit, their too busy thinking of ways to try and disrupt the security which in turn makes what were doing harder.

You're acting like the black bloc is some kind of organized group. It's whoever shows up with a black shirt and facemask. Lots of  quality control there.

 

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Tactics

Tactics of a black bloc can include vandalism, rioting and street fighting, demonstrating without a permit, misleading the authorities, assisting in the escape of people arrested by the police, administering first aid to persons affected by tear gas in areas where protesters are barred from entering, building barricades, and attacking police.[2] Participants in such blocs often use peaceful methods of protest as well. Although black blocking is usually connected with some form of direct action, some black blocs also participate in wholly symbolic action, as well as actions that fall entirely within traditional definitions of nonviolent protest. Property destruction carried out by black blocs tends to have symbolic significance: common targets include banks, institutional buildings, outlets for multinational corporations, gasoline stations, video-surveillance cameras.

There may be several black blocs within a particular protest, with different aims and tactics.[3] As an ad hoc group, they share no universally common set of principles or beliefs.

 

Can you tell me exactly what the actions I've bolded accomplish? Tell me Krop, what does Vandalisim street fighting attacking police accomplish exactly?

Cytizen H

SparkyOne, I'd like to respond to this latest post, but can you let us know where your quotes about the black bloc came from?

Polunatic2

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The point that SOAR is making is that while they may not agree with other tactics, they will make no attempt to interfere with them or publically criticize them.

So why call them "pointless" and "annoying" on a public website? Doesn't sound "uncritical" to me. Is that how the peaceful protests against the Israeli attacks on the flotilla would be described? Why even bother to associate themselves at all with the June 26 march if it's so pointless? Isn't that a contradiction? 

Freedom 55

What respect for a diversity of tactics means to me is that you don't publicly condemn, attack, disrupt, or sic cops on allied groups and individuals who choose to employ tactics that differ from one's own. That doesn't mean we can't challenge and criticize each other's strategies and tactics (or lack thereof). It doesn't ask that you pretend to agree with everyone; just that you respect that not everyone will choose to do the same thing... and that's ok.

Cytizen H

Polunatic2 wrote:

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The point that SOAR is making is that while they may not agree with other tactics, they will make no attempt to interfere with them or publically criticize them.

So why call them "pointless" and "annoying" on a public website? Doesn't sound "uncritical" to me.

As I said, I think this was a poor choice of language, but keep in mind that they are not criticizing any specific tactics, or groups, or individuals. This is not even close to a public condemnation of anyone or their tactics.

polunatic2 wrote:

Is that how the peaceful protests against the Israeli attacks on the flotilla would be described?

I think you know that it's not. And this opens up a whole can of worms about what is peaceful protest and what is violent. The flotilla was completely peaceful, but knowingly defying a security force. People on board then defended themselves ane, here at least (and i agree) they are seen as completely justified. if G20 demonstrators defy the Canadian security force and are attacked, would they be justified in defending themselves?

polunatic2 wrote:

Why even bother to associate themselves at all with the June 26 march if it's so pointless? Isn't that a contradiction? 

The point of their association goes to the core of why respect for diversity of tactics is important. By engaging with groups with different ideas of how to express themselves we can do our best to ensure the safety of those who do not want to be endangered by situations in which the police exert undue force.

Buddy Kat

Sounds like they won't be using the vehicle version of the (ultrasonic ) sound cannon which is more dangerous than the hand held (sonic) chirpping device ..so that is good news.

Polunatic2

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 I think you know that it's not.

Actually, I don't. The rally was not unlike dozens of other anti-war actions I've participated in before. Lots of speakers, marching around, making lots of noise and getting home in time for supper. 

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By engaging with groups with different ideas of how to express themselves we can do our best to ensure the safety of those who do not want to be endangered by situations in which the police exert undue force.

You've lost me. How does SOAR's participation "ensure the safety" of anyone? The march will have its own marshalls for that purpose. There was an agreement that the march would be "family friendly". Why not leave it at that and have the "To the Fence" action at another time? Why create the optics that the labour/community march is "turning its back" on those who want to tear down the fence? 

Buddy Kat

double post edit

Cytizen H

Polunatic2 wrote:

Actually, I don't. The rally was not unlike dozens of other anti-war actions I've participated in before. Lots of speakers, marching around, making lots of noise and getting home in time for supper. 

Apologies. I read your post hastily and totally misread this part. I thought you were asking about the flotilla itself.

As for the rally, I can't speculate on SOAR's position. Please look at what they actually they say. They suggest that some of their member might find some tactics needless/pointless but never single out any specific tactics. If you jumped to the conclusion that they were speaking about things like the rally in question, perhaps that says more about how you view it.

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You've lost me. How does SOAR's participation "ensure the safety" of anyone? The march will have its own marshalls for that purpose. There was an agreement that the march would be "family friendly". Why not leave it at that and have the "To the Fence" action at another time? Why create the optics that the labour/community march is "turning its back" on those who want to tear down the fence? 

I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that SOAR's presence at the march would ensure safety. I meant simply that by engaging them ahead  of time instead of shunning them, the communication is opened up and there is less chance of people getting caught in the crossfires.

I don't think that their decision to split from the march necessarily creates the optic you suggested. Could you say a bit more about this?

kropotkin1951

Here is the view of the TCMN on Solidarity and Respect.  I agree with these principles which is why I reacted to that suggestion that people should assist in law enforcement actions against other protesters.

As for Soar I think that it is axiomatic that if you are in a small group of 3 to 10 you can better look after each other and make sure no one falls victim to police violence without others beside them to at least bear witness.  That is what Soar is promoting.  An expanded version of the buddy system but with the people in the affinity group being in tune and able to make decisions quickly as to how the police have escalated any situation and whether given the comfort level of the group they should withdraw from the police violence or confront it. 

 

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It is with this in mind that we espouse the following principles (taken from the St. Paul principles). These principles are an attempt to outline a working process for us together as organizers:

1. Our solidarity is based on respect for a political diversity within the struggle for social-justice. As individuals and groups we may choose to engage in a diversity of tactics and plans of action but are committed to treating each other with respect;

2. We realize that debates and honest criticisms are necessary for political clarification and growth in our movements. But we also realize that our detractors will work to divide us by inflaming and magnifying our tactical, strategic, personal and political disagreements. For the purposes of political clarity, and mutual respect, we will speak to our own political motivations and tactical choices and allow other groups and individuals to speak on their own behalf. We reject all forms of violence-baiting, red-baiting and fear-mongering; and efforts to foster unnecessary divisions among our movements;

3. As we plan our actions and tactics, we will take care to maintain appropriate separations of time and space between divergent tactics. We will commit to respecting each other’s organizing space and the tone and tactics they wish to utilize in that space. We will commit to clearly communicating our choices of tactics wherever possible;

4. We oppose any state repression of dissent, including surveillance, infiltration, disruption and violence. We agree not to assist law enforcement actions against activists and others. We oppose proposals designed to cage protests into high-restricted “free speech” zones, and we will support all those arrested; and

5. We will work to promote a sense of respect for our shared community, our neighbours and particularly poor, working people, immigrants and others marginalized in our society and their personal property. We also will work to promote a sense of respect for Indigenous peoples and the land we are organizing on.

An injury to one is an injury to all! 

Polunatic2

 

Thanks for engaging in a respectful discussion CH and also for acknowledging that at least in your view, some of the wording might be sloppy. 

I suppose in the context of this discussion, principle #3 posted by K1951 is what I'm having some trouble with. 

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As we plan our actions and tactics, we will take care to maintain appropriate separations of time and space between divergent tactics.

I don't see that separation if the SOAR action will begin before the People First march ends.  It's unclear what their position is on the rally but the fact that they're mobilizing at the same time at a nearby location implies that they probably don't intend to join the rally. Red flags also went up when I received an email last week which included the following: 

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On June 26th, when the march turns towards the protest pen, we invite you to go beyond the tired symbolism of parades and beyond the will of politicians. When the People First march turns back, we invite you all to continue on with us to confront the self-proclaimed G20 leaders and the security apparatus that will have occupied our city. We will take back our city from these exploitative profiteers, and in the streets we will be uncontrollable! This is a militant march where many forms of resistance and tactics are welcomed and respected.

Again, note the language - "tired symbolism of parades", "turns toward the protest pen", "turns back" etc. I interpret all of this as a "we'll show you" attitude, not as an act of solidarity but I could be wrong. Asking people to "continue along with them" sounds divisive to me. They will have to make a choice. "Us or them". As well, in that context, how does the "affinity group" model play itself out when people are spontaneously invited to join in? 

It would seem a whole lot simpler if SOAR was not using the People First march as their launching pad mid-way through the march. 

 

kropotkin1951

Sounds like you get to have your march and clear out before they do anything that you need to wag your fingers at.  And who the fuck made this your protest?  Is there a central registry I should sign in with so as to make sure I don't disrupt your official protest.  It seems to me that everyone is protesting on the same day at the same location.  

If you want to be like the activists on the Rachel Corrie fine but it seems some want to be like the activists on the Mavi Marmara.  As long as they wait until the people who just want to march clear away from the areas they intend to protest differently at then I don't see the problem.  Even in Vancouver when they trashed the Bay the protesters made sure no other protesters would be endangered by their acts.  I am not sure of the bogeyman being raised here. If various groups do an end around to block traffic and disrupt officials it is their right and it does not affect you right to march with a sign saying whatever it is you want.  If those groups fight back instead of just being arrested then I think the police will punish them enough without them having to hear lectures from official protesters with their university or union credentials.

Polunatic2

It's not "my" protest nor do I have a university degree or any official union position other than workplace steward. There was an agreement three months ago that the rally/march would be a "green zone", inclusive, "family-friendly" action.

My real motivation? I don't like to see people get hurt or even killed exercising their democratic rights like at this demonstration I attended in 1987. 

kalin

The People First rally remains a "green-zone", inclusive, "family-friendly" event; which I hope also means inclusive towards SOAR participation. Should they be disallowed from even participating because of the affiliation? If they're respecting the tone and safety-level during the rally, I don't see the problem. Yes, the language of the callouts is a little derisive, but respect for diversity of tactics is difficult on all sides -- it's to be expected that a group like SOAR would be frustrated by "protests" that reinforce the authority of the police and the state -- and they are doing a far better job than respecting DOT than, say, our Volunteer Sheriff Snitch above.

Cytizen H

Polunatic2 wrote:

As well, in that context, how does the "affinity group" model play itself out when people are spontaneously invited to join in? 
It would seem a whole lot simpler if SOAR was not using the People First march as their launching pad mid-way through the march. 

 

As far as the affinity group model goes, the most important thing is that you have someone with you. An affinity group of 2 or 3 works.

And I'm not really sure what your problem is with SOAR, or anyone else starting with the march then breaking off. I think it perfectly captures what is actually going on. SOAR gets to say "yes, we agree with you on certain things, we want many of the same things, but here's where our views differ".

SparkyOne

Polunatic2 wrote:

It's not "my" protest nor do I have a university degree or any official union position other than workplace steward. There was an agreement three months ago that the rally/march would be a "green zone", inclusive, "family-friendly" action.

My real motivation? I don't like to see people get hurt or even killed exercising their democratic rights like at this demonstration I attended in 1987. 

Good luck debating with Kropt. He'll just meander away when he can't twist your words around anymore or take your post out of context.

Rioters causing damage is apparently a myth.

I'm trying my damndest to avoid members of my organization from causing violence and intentionally instigating security so that makes me trying to control everything and be the supreme queen of everything lol

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