Get out and Vote on May 2nd II

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MegB
Get out and Vote on May 2nd II

Continued from here.

Issues Pages: 
theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

Quote:

This debate about not voting is a very good exercise. It reminds us of all the great things we have because we have voted for candidates that best uphold social democratic principles.

Yes, very good. But blank voting is voting. If 'social democratic principles' in this context refers to substantive political reforms allowing Canadians greater control and power in how they are governed then yes it is important to vote for those parties and candidates who not only uphold these ideas but also are willing to radically expand them. If none fit the bill however we suggest blank voting.

remind remind's picture

theatlanticaparty wrote:
Yes, very good. But blank voting is voting.

 

Why do you keep stating this falsity long after you have been shown to be promoting a false state of affairs?

Blank voting is NOT voting.

wage zombie

I think if enough people vote blank then the Conservatives will realize they're doing things wrong and put out better policies.

Additionally, no party would want to win by exploiting public apathy.  I suspect that any party that wins a phony majority because the voter turnout is very low will bring in a fair electoral system immediately.  This reasoning is based on the assumption of course that parties are more interested in democracy and fairness than partisan gain.

6079_Smith_W

@ theatlanticapart

I do respect your decision to spoil your ballot if you want to.

What I have a problem with is promoting it as an active and positive choice. It is not that at all, IMO,

Generally speaking, I think refusal to engage and try and find a voting alternative (if only to prevent the worst from gaining power) often comes down to snobbery, laziness, or a combination of the two. Frankly, I am not too interested in listening to complaints about a system, however flawed.  from people who make no effort whatsoever to work with it, or change it.

That change is certainly not going to come out of the air.

@ wage zombie (cross-posted)

I hear you, but I am not nearly so optimistic. I think our current prime minister will take power any way he can get it. He certainly didn't have any problem overriding the elected house with his appointed senators. And he had no problem cutting farmers off the Wheat Board voters list. I think he would be happier dispensing with elections altogether if it meant him getting his way.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:

 

I think if enough people vote blank then the Conservatives will realize they're doing things wrong and put out better policies.

Additionally, no party would want to win by exploiting public apathy.  I suspect that any party that wins a phony majority because the voter turnout is very low will bring in a fair electoral system immediately.  This reasoning is based on the assumption of course that parties are more interested in democracy and fairness than partisan gain.

 

Do you like your martinis dry, too? :)

 

6079_Smith_W

Plus, to hear him talk he doesn't seem to consider any elected Bloc members to be legitimate representatives in the house of commons. So I guess he doesn't really respect the choice of 1/4 of the Canadian public (by that I mean ALL quebecers who have the choice in front of them).

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Yeah...I too am tiring of this BS.

A blank ballot and /or a spoiled ballot is as legitimate as a 3 dollar bill.

It's an arguement and strategy without any point because it's absolutely meaningless. 

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ theatlanticapart

What I have a problem with is promoting it as an active and positive choice. It is not that at all, IMO,

 

Well it is active, you examine your choices, you go to the polling stations, it is a choice since you are deciding to vote and deciding that all of the choices are unacceptable, and it is positive since you are signalling the need for some progessive thinking about political reform.

 

If you use your vote to support a status-quo party (PC, L, NDP, G) are you not signalling that you accept the status-quo? You can bet that the establishment want you to troop out and select one of their parties. Arn't you playing into the hands of the reactionaries, those who want to maintain the system? Isn't that regressive?

6079_Smith_W

@ theatlanticaparty

I am afraid you don't get my meaning. As I have said a few times already I don't have a problem if someone has looked at all the issues and all the parties and CANDIDATES (because the two cannot always be equated) and decides that he or she cannot in good conscience vote for anyone. 

My point is that one should at least make the effort and do the research - every time -  to see if there is a way of using ones vote to some useful purpose

That is not what you seem to be proposing, but rather an outright rejection. Sorry. I think that is lazy and snobbish. Doubly lazy because you seem to just ignore that in most ridings there are some parties and candidates - some independent - on the ballot other than the main parties

And doubly snobbish for making presumptions about how I use my vote, who my candidates are, what the specific issues in my riding are, and who you accuse me of "playing into the hands of" by exercising my vote.

Do what you want, but I don't think you have fully thought this out, and I think you are giving bad advice. I also don't really care what you think about me or about a process you can't  be bothered to take a proper look at.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ theatlanticaparty

I am afraid you don't get my meaning. As I have said a few times already I don't have a problem if someone has looked at all the issues and all the parties and CANDIDATES (because the two cannot always be equated) and decides that he or she cannot in good conscience vote for anyone. 

My point is that one should at least make the effort and do the research - every time -  to see if there is a way of using ones vote to some useful purpose

That is not what you seem to be proposing, but rather an outright rejection. Sorry. I think that is lazy and snobbish. Doubly lazy because you seem to just ignore that in most ridings there are some parties and candidates - some independent - on the ballot other than the main parties

And doubly snobbish for making presumptions about how I use my vote, who my candidates are, what the specific issues in my riding are, and who you accuse me of "playing into the hands of" by exercising my vote.

Do what you want, but I don't think you have fully thought this out, and I think you are giving bad advice. I also don't really care what you think about me or about a process you can't  be bothered to take a proper look at.

From a Smith AND a Smithee

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ theatlanticaparty

I am afraid you don't get my meaning. As I have said a few times already I don't have a problem if someone has looked at all the issues and all the parties and CANDIDATES (because the two cannot always be equated) and decides that he or she cannot in good conscience vote for anyone. 

My point is that one should at least make the effort and do the research - every time -  to see if there is a way of using ones vote to some useful purpose

That is not what you seem to be proposing, but rather an outright rejection. Sorry. I think that is lazy and snobbish. Doubly lazy because you seem to just ignore that in most ridings there are some parties and candidates - some independent - on the ballot other than the main parties

And doubly snobbish for making presumptions about how I use my vote, who my candidates are, what the specific issues in my riding are, and who you accuse me of "playing into the hands of" by exercising my vote.

Do what you want, but I don't think you have fully thought this out, and I think you are giving bad advice. I also don't really care what you think about me or about a process you can't  be bothered to take a proper look at.

 

Thank you. We want people to evaluate for themselves whether a blank ballot is justified, just to be clear.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

A blank ballot can and only be valid to the person deciding to do it.

ZERO validity in the Election Canada's rulebook and ZERO validity in it achieving political recognition.

If blank and spoiled ballots were valid,Canada would not have a government for the past 2 decades.

Why not scribble a random name on your ballot and put an X beside it...It would accomplish just as much as a blank or spoiled ballot.

This is a brain dead strategy and THIS election is not the right time for this futile 'protest'

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

alan smithee wrote:

If blank and spoiled ballots were valid,Canada would not have a government for the past 2 decades.

And perhaps we would have a reformed political system by now.

Quote:

This is a brain dead strategy and THIS election is not the right time for this futile 'protest'

 

What is special about THIS election? Every election is 'special' if you listen to the powers that be. It is time to break out of the cycle.

6079_Smith_W

@ the atlanticaparty

You are already contradicting what you said in post #11. You are not just advising people to make what they feel is the best decision; you are actively campaigning for spoiling ballots as a political tactic and challenging those who do want to use their ballots productively. Bad advice.

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

theatlanticaparty wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

If blank and spoiled ballots were valid,Canada would not have a government for the past 2 decades.

And perhaps we would have a reformed political system by now.

Quote:

This is a brain dead strategy and THIS election is not the right time for this futile 'protest'

 

What is special about THIS election? Every election is 'special' if you listen to the powers that be. It is time to break out of the cycle.

 

Too many people believe that a Conservative government will just be 'another government'

Harper is flirting with a majority...Progressives should be united to make sure this does not happen at just about all costs.

Your strategy will do nothing but hand Harper his majority.

And,again,spoiling ballots DOES NOT CHANGE THE COURSE OF CANADIAN POLITICS!!

Spin this 'protest' any which way and it's still stupid.

I'm getting the feeling that you are not but a Tory operative trying to influence the competition to hang themselves.

Good luck. 

ETA - Please explain how spoiled ballots would lead to electoral reform...It hasn't done anything yet.

        I suppose blank and spoiled ballots would also lead to trees made of money,Canadian winters into tropical paradises and solid gold bridges that lead to far away galaxies as well.

       I think some people have been drinking too much tiger blood and huffing 7 gram rocks with Charlie Sheen.

takeitslowly

 

What is special about this election is that many young adults cant find jobs, and a lot of despair and poverty in major cities like Toronto. A few years can do a lot of damages to young adults looking for their first career, and a lot of people, caregivers, single mothers, and seniors are living in worsening conditions and all the mental stress and burnout is getting worse everyday and this country is becoming just like America, with long term unemployed/underemployed citizens and people dying a little more everyday because there are no way out of our misery. And what about young people dying in afghanistian? Nowaday, many young Canadians like young Americans, might be looking for a career in the army as a way out, to pay for their tuition and earn a living. Our foreign and drug policy mirrors the one of George W Bush. CBC is becoming CNN. Something got to give, and we might eventually have to build more jails because crime rate will go up. Doesnt anyone see this?

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

alan smithee wrote:

ETA - Please explain how spoiled ballots would lead to electoral reform...It hasn't done anything yet.

        I suppose blank and spoiled ballots would also lead to trees made of money,Canadian winters into tropical paradises and solid gold bridges that lead to far away galaxies as well.

       I think some people have been drinking too much tiger blood and huffing 7 gram rocks with Charlie Sheen.

The objective of the Great Canadian Blank Ballot Project is to raise awarness amonsgt the public and the political establishment that Canada is in dire need of political reform. Imagine if blank ballots actually beat some of the candidates in some ridings, that would spark discussion.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

theatlanticaparty wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

ETA - Please explain how spoiled ballots would lead to electoral reform...It hasn't done anything yet.

        I suppose blank and spoiled ballots would also lead to trees made of money,Canadian winters into tropical paradises and solid gold bridges that lead to far away galaxies as well.

       I think some people have been drinking too much tiger blood and huffing 7 gram rocks with Charlie Sheen.

The objective of the Great Canadian Blank Ballot Project is to raise awarness amonsgt the public and the political establishment that Canada is in dire need of political reform. Imagine if blank ballots actually beat some of the candidates in some ridings, that would spark discussion.

 

Yeah,imagine if blank ballots actually beat some of the candidates in some ridings..Whether or not this ALREADY happens,it doesn't spark discussion or raise any awareness.

So yeah,IMAGINE.

In the meantime I'll imagine winning the lottery.

Fidel

Get out and Vote on May 2nd II

I never let someone else speak for me on the one day every four years that counts for anything.

6079_Smith_W

@ Fidel

People can hardly complain about others speaking for them if they waste that one-day opportunity by saying nothing at all.

And the fact is to get sucked into a campaign that tells you to not engage, and to not do the work of seeing if you can use your vote is just as much letting someone else think and speak for you.

Just doing nothing because someone tells you to is worse actually, because if you don't do that work and due diligence I think you're just sticking your head under the rug.  People might pretending that by not engaging they are not responsible for the outcome, but it is a lie.

wage zombie

6079_Smith_W wrote:

People can hardly complain about others speaking for them if they waste that one-day opportunity by saying nothing at all.

Again Smith you're just "not getting it".  They're not saying nothing at all, actually they are saying something, and that something is, "i'm saying nothing at all".  Don't ignore the massive shift this will bring about.

6079_Smith_W

No, I think I got it. 

Like I said, if you have actually done the work, every time, vote however you want, or spoil your ballot.

But presesenting spoilage (which is the equivalent of complete failure, IMO) as a positive choice before even doing the work is disingenuous, as is pretending that it sends any kind of message at all.

If you disagree with me on this, fine. My only concern is atlanticaparty trying to convince others that anything productive can come of it.

Other than the fact that it helps Tories win seats, that is..

If you disagree, you might want to listen to The House podcast from this morning. The seat change in some greater toronto seats had nothing to do with a rise in Tory votes; there was none. It was because half a million Liberal voters stayed home. I'm not advising you to vote liberal, of course, but any of those non-voters thought they were accomplishing anything by their inaction they got their answer.

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But presesenting spoilage (which is the equivalent of complete failure, IMO) as a positive choice before even doing the work is disingenuous, as is pretending that it sends any kind of message at all.

We encourage people to go out and do the work. But we have already looked at the parties platforms and there is nothing there so we have no problem telling people to blank their ballot.

When we ask the campaigns about reform all we get is deafening silence.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

LOL!!

'The significant change this will bring about'..LOL!!!!

The only 'significant change' this will bring about is a Harper majority...Nothing more,nothing less.

This farce..oops,I mean protest ...is tantamount to believing that if you think hard enough the rivers will magically turn to wine...it's like farting in a wind storm..NOBODY but YOU will notice...

Staying home on election day has become a Canadian tradition..Why would this election be any different?

The politicians,the parties and their overlords don't give a fuck if you don't show up.

The war mongering capitalist hordes are COUNTING on you staying home.

Anyway..Stay home,spoil your ballot or scream obscenities to a brick wall..That's your choice and freedom.

But quit trying to spin it as some sort of revolutionary movement that will change politics in Canada or anything else.

It's insulting to those of us who actually have more than a hand full of functioning brain cells.

6079_Smith_W

theatlanticaparty wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But presesenting spoilage (which is the equivalent of complete failure, IMO) as a positive choice before even doing the work is disingenuous, as is pretending that it sends any kind of message at all.

We encourage people to go out and do the work. But we have already looked at the parties platforms and there is nothing there so we have no problem telling people to blank their ballot.

When we ask the campaigns about reform all we get is deafening silence.

 

Really? 

You have looked at all the platforms of all the parties and candidates running in every riding in Canada? 

You cannot be telling the truth, because some of them haven't been nominated yet. The deadline isn't until April 11.

wage zombie

I'm just kidding Smith.

Anyway, it doesn't matter.  There is no "Great Canadian Blank Ballot Project", no matter how he's presenting it.  People are not being accosted in shopping malls and presented with glossy pamphlets outlining a truly radical critique of representative democracy.  They will not build momentum because they will not actually be interacting with strangers face to face.  They are not doing any creative agit prop demonstrations, and they will not score a fluke five minute interview on some news show which they could use as an opportunity to hijack the corporate owned fantasy news station.

All of that, I would be down with.  I'm going to vote myself, for the tiny infinitessimal good that it will do.  Really, it's not your vote that counts, it's the number of votes you can bring in by talking respectfully to people about your ideas, goals, and conclusions.  If someone thinks that by doing that, and injecting critical arguments into the public discourse, that that could be more effective in our quest for real democracy, well I understand where they're coming from.

A plan could be to create stickers that look like rows on ballots, that say NONE OF THE ABOVE, with an X already in.  These stickers could be distributed to people at transit stations, shopping malls, churches, and public place really.  They could have a sleek social website where you could find and meetup with people in your area interested in working on the NONE OF THE ABOVE campaign. They could arrange sponsorship of sticker printing and distribution by independent print shops across the country.  If they did all of that, then maybe, MAYBE, they might then be in a position to inject a critical message into the public discourse.  With about a dozen competent, savvy, and motivated people, with an average of 2 hours per day each, something like that would probably be pretty doable.

That is a plan.  Am I encouraging them by providing a plan?  It doesn't matter.  The people advocating not voting don't have the capacity or the focus to do any of those things, or to organize with others who do.  They are sitting alone at their computer.  Most likely they have a beer or a joint, or something else, in their hands while they're typing away.  This is not political work.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Actually,I checked out the NDP official platform and the Cons have spent 5 years selling theirs.

So either the parties are too RIGHT wing or too LEFT wing...Because at this point,I don't know what you expect from the parties' platforms.

6079_Smith_W

@ wage zombie

Oooops..... sorry shouldn't be doing books and doing my civic duty at the same time, expecially online when I can't see peoples' jerseys.

 

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Really? 

You have looked at all the platforms of all the parties and candidates running in every riding in Canada? 

You cannot be telling the truth, because some of them haven't been nominated yet. The deadline isn't until April 11.

 

Of course. As you know there are only four policy platforms in this election.

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Really? 

You have looked at all the platforms of all the parties and candidates running in every riding in Canada? 

You cannot be telling the truth, because some of them haven't been nominated yet. The deadline isn't until April 11.

 

Of course. As you know there are only four policy platforms in this election.

janfromthebruce

notice few post in this thread - wonder why? What a waste of virtual air

6079_Smith_W

I want you to not care

 

Artist credit:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46760738@N07/4292341871/

 

Freedom 55

Has anyone in these threads said they don't care?

6079_Smith_W

I have no doubt that most people here have strong opinions.

Whether they care enough about the electoral process to curb their attitude and check out what candidates and parties have to say before making a blanket condemnation is another question. 

Or whether they care enough about changing the inequities in our electoral system to actually lobby for reform.

You don't change anything  by sulking, doing nothing and hoping someone will notice, do the work for you and hand it to you on a silver platter.

And fooling others into thinking that it is effective is just helping the fellow in the blue sweater, as I see it.

 

 

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

‘It's a big game and you ain't in it.' - George Carlin

Political reform is THE issue in the election. We want every Canadian to do their duty and vote but since no parties or independent candidates endorse reform the only alternative is the ‘third way', voting a blank ballot. This is perfectly valid and Elections Canada counts and reports these ballots in the same way as ballots for candidates.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Who thinks atlantica is a bot?

6079_Smith_W

*hands up*

At least in the sense that s/he isn't responding to any of the holes being poked in the program . I seem to recall that even the NDP are in favour of PR. And #35 is simply a repetition of a lie because the nomination deadline has not passed, and I highly doubt atlantica even has a list of who is running in all the ridings across Canada, or cares.

That said, I don't think engaging is a waste of time, because this is not the only place I have run into people trying to sell that snake oil, or fools willing to buy it.

6079_Smith_W

On that note, One of our local NDP candidates came just 200 votes short of unseating the conservative who got in. If anyone thinls games like this accomplish anything other than helping the wrong person get in, I would suggest you are fooling yourself.

Fidel

We've got to help get the vote out on May 2nd. There will be very many single parents and those who don't drive out there who need rides to the polls. I will bend over backwards for these people to help them cast a real protest vote next month. These are the kinds of people our political stooges are hoping will not make it to the ballot box for any number of reasons and slip-ups. Let's work our buns off to undermine the stoogeaucracy on May 2nd.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Maysie wrote:

Who thinks atlantica is a bot?

I'm not sure if we should be guessing, not when vivisection would settle the matter once and for all,Surprised

theatlanticaparty theatlanticaparty's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

the nomination deadline has not passed

 

Fair enough. I stand corrected, said the APbot.

 

If there is a candidate somewhere that stands for substantive political reform then vote for them. Having examined the Big Four none stand for reform. Yes, the Greens and the NDP make statements about some form of PR, that's progress even though it could be argued that it is self serving since their seat counts would increase. The real test would be a party that wants to bring in electoral reform knowing its seat counts would drop. But having a stand on PR is not principled substantive reform. I would be impressed if a party advocated Recall and/or CI legislation, since that is obviously not in their interests.

remind remind's picture

theatlanticaparty wrote:
‘It's a big game and you ain't in it.' - George Carlin

This comment of yours indicates quite clearly where you are at mentally, and it ain't no where close to believing in democracy. people who believe they have a right to play games with other peoples lives really need to get a good dose of reality.

 

Quote:
Political reform is THE issue in the election. We want every Canadian to do their duty and vote but since no parties or independent candidates endorse reform the only alternative is the ‘third way', voting a blank ballot. This is perfectly valid and Elections Canada counts and reports these ballots in the same way as ballots for candidates.

This is complete fabrication on your part that has been debunked here time and again, yet you still continue with this falsehood.

Blank ballots are NOT counted they go into the same ignore pile as spoiled ballots do.

catcher

remind wrote:

theatlanticaparty wrote:
‘It's a big game and you ain't in it.' - George Carlin

This comment of yours indicates quite clearly where you are at mentally, and it ain't no where close to believing in democracy. people who believe they have a right to play games with other peoples lives really need to get a good dose of reality.

 

Quote:
Political reform is THE issue in the election. We want every Canadian to do their duty and vote but since no parties or independent candidates endorse reform the only alternative is the ‘third way', voting a blank ballot. This is perfectly valid and Elections Canada counts and reports these ballots in the same way as ballots for candidates.

This is complete fabrication on your part that has been debunked here time and again, yet you still continue with this falsehood.

Blank ballots are NOT counted they go into the same ignore pile as spoiled ballots do.

Rejected balots are recorded though.

remind remind's picture

rejected ballots are just that, no one cares about them. Period.

6079_Smith_W

If we want to talk about a real problem, that actually is relevant. WHy is it that our polling numbers only count those who are decided. TO find out who is undecided or does not care, you have to dig for the information, even though that percentage can reach 20 or 30 percent, more than the support of some parties. 

I only bring it up to make the point that no one other than strategists cares who has not declared support or spoils a ballot because it has no effect - those undecided voters have relevance only when and if they finally decide for a candidate. And some parties - particularly those who hold power - are happy to keep it that way. 

While I think it would be good to report undecided voters in polls, counting those who spoil or decline ballots in an election has no meaning at all - and it would have even less meaning if it was a group which wasn't even trying to engage, but simply rejecting the whole system.

Fidel

I think it's a great idea for Liberal and Tory same old story voters to spoil their ballots. They should do it all the time. Unfortunately this is the wrong internet forum to be advocating this very progressive activism.

Freedom 55

catcher wrote:

Rejected balots are recorded though.

 

Yes, and it's already been pointed-out ad nauseam that these "rejected" ballots are not ballots that have been rejected at the outset, but rather, ones that have been rejected by those counting the votes.

 

Can we agree that this been sufficiently established? Can we agree that continued attempts to mislead people violates babble's policy against posting inaccurate material?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Fidel wrote:

I think it's a great idea for Liberal and Tory same old story voters to spoil their ballots. They should do it all the time. Unfortunately this is the wrong internet forum to be advocating this very progressive activism.

 

Lol!!

Apathy is very progressive?!

PUH-leeze.

Rikardo

By not going to the polling station at all, I do send a message. We were around 40 percent, the largest percentage in the last election. Even a Green Party vote is an endorsement of our antiquated FPTP system which gives no chance to the Green Party. Another point. Why didn't Jack Layton and the other leaders, refuse to debate without at least one question, say five minutes, for Elizabeth May?

6079_Smith_W

@ Rikardo

WTF is any of that supposed to mean? What do you care? And what do you intend to do about it that means anything? I don't know what is worse about that post... the arrogance, or the ignorance. 

(edit)

How many layabout, good-for nothing ignorant couch potatoes do you count in your 40-percent coalition, why do you think it means anything at all? And how is it that you think it is a positive thing, and are advertising the fact? 

Because if you think any significant percentage of that number is the result of political awareness and sending a message I would suggest you are not basing your assumption on any hard evidence.

(and I am being polite and restraining myself by phrasing it that way)

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