Harper joins U.S. in Iraq, with support of Liberals

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Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 

I came in for this post  as I thought it was important-- I share the frustration of others with the current direction of this site - not sure what to say other than I did not post yesterday and doubt I'll post tomorrow... It really has titled away from being a progressive site. If you don't challenge the non- progressive posts it is just another mainstream site and if you engage them the few other progressives will complain that you are giving them air. Forgetting the whole thing seems to make more sense.

 

I'm reluctantly beginning to think you're right. If we have to put up politely with loquacious passive-aggressive posts from NATO-lovers and gun-lovers and supporters of criminalizing sex work and "let's go help the Kurds", then I might as well be having those debates where I debate everything - in the union, among fellow workers, where the ground rules are different, and where everything is up for grabs. We still need a site where progressives can discuss strategy and developments, but it can't be one that instantly degenerates into this kind of stuff.

Sorry for the thread drift. But the deluge is getting worse than the drift.

ETA: By the way Sean, what do you have against Brazil?

 

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Pondering, how can you accuse others of being elitist? You have wirtten that Canada should help the Kurds, but that no one should expect you to have ever considered stepping up to do so. What is more elitist then to tell everyone that you and those close to you are too valuable to go oeverseas.

I never suggested I or anyone else is too valuable to go overseas. As Paladin mentioned, the people going are experts in combat that have spent years, probably decades, developing their expertise. This is their profession. I don't believe that they are evil or stupid people and I am grateful to them because evil does exist.

I consider myself to be a fairly average Canadian in terms of knowledge of politics and history and world events. That means my knowledge is spotty and my awareness of a lot of modern history depends on what was happening in my life at the time. In my opinion people like myself are the majority and we decide who wins the election and politicians worry about what we feel strongly about. They lull us with treats,deceive us on the economy, and prey on our fears. Incumbants hope we don't get upset over something big, challengers hope that we do.

When activists have protests it is people like myself that they are trying to sway. They are trying to convince me there is an issue so grave and/or so unjust that I must take a stand and force the government to comply.

The left portrays the government as a malevolent entity controlled by the oligarchy who seek to exploit us. The right portrays it as malevolent entity controlled by the intelligentsia intent on social engineering.

Everyone tries to manipulate us and prey on our emotions and sense of morality. How could you support military action that kills people! How could you leave innocent women and children to be raped and murdered!

Politically, ALL the parties are out to manipulate or lure me not educate me.

Everyone thinks I should listen only to them because they are the experts and so obviously right and I am too ill-informed to have the right to an opinion even as they try to persuade me to share theirs.

That's K51's position. I'm not entitled to an opinion because the issues are way too complex for me to evaluate without knowing more history. I must study first. It's the same message sent from the right. The issues are way too complex plus there are secrets only the PM and top advisors can know. I can't possibly know enough to judge. So basically everyone just wants my blind support and if they don't get it they put me down.

That is why I can accuse others of being elitist. It frustrates me to see the attitudes of the right reflected in the left.

I am not a stupid person or one without conscience or the ability to reason. I'm an average voter. I'm not as far left as most people here but I am far left of center and open to social justice issues. I may not have the knowledge that many of you have on various issues but that doesn't mean I am without insight or don't have a valuable perspective to offer. More people like me than people like you determine the future. Realistically, we are not all going to study activist's issues. 

To have a revolution in a relatively wealthy democracy requires finesse and respect for the majority.

Pondering

Unionist wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I came in for this post  as I thought it was important-- I share the frustration of others with the current direction of this site - not sure what to say other than I did not post yesterday and doubt I'll post tomorrow... It really has titled away from being a progressive site. If you don't challenge the non- progressive posts it is just another mainstream site and if you engage them the few other progressives will complain that you are giving them air. Forgetting the whole thing seems to make more sense.

I'm reluctantly beginning to think you're right. If we have to put up politely with loquacious passive-aggressive posts from NATO-lovers and gun-lovers and supporters of criminalizing sex work and "let's go help the Kurds", then I might as well be having those debates where I debate everything - in the union, among fellow workers, where the ground rules are different, and where everything is up for grabs. We still need a site where progressives can discuss strategy and developments, but it can't be one that instantly degenerates into this kind of stuff.

You have a very narrow definition of progressive. 

As rabble doesn't take a stand on prostitution and prints articles supporting both viewpoints perhaps it is rabble that isn't progressive enough for you and by extension this message board.

All I said is that I support advisors going because because we are being asked for our help and they do need it. I didn't present a huge complex argument designed to convince people to agree with me. There was no prothelizing on my part; no need for over-the-top accusations.

If this has been a "a site where progressives can discuss strategy and developments" I haven't seen any evidence of that. Just lots of useless outrage. Venting and commisterating with each other is good and mutually supportive but don't pretend there was anything revolutionary going on here.

I find it odd to be portrayed as having so much power over this site. If I have it it is because you are handing it to me.

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Pondering, how can you accuse others of being elitist? You have wirtten that Canada should help the Kurds, but that no one should expect you to have ever considered stepping up to do so. What is more elitist then to tell everyone that you and those close to you are too valuable to go oeverseas.

I never suggested I or anyone else is too valuable to go overseas. As Paladin mentioned, the people going are experts in combat that have spent years, probably decades, developing their expertise. This is their profession. I don't believe that they are evil or stupid people and I am grateful to them because evil does exist.

I consider myself to be a fairly average Canadian in terms of knowledge of politics and history and world events. That means my knowledge is spotty and my awareness of a lot of modern history depends on what was happening in my life at the time. In my opinion people like myself are the majority and we decide who wins the election and politicians worry about what we feel strongly about. They lull us with treats,deceive us on the economy, and prey on our fears. Incumbants hope we don't get upset over something big, challengers hope that we do.

When activists have protests it is people like myself that they are trying to sway. They are trying to convince me there is an issue so grave and/or so unjust that I must take a stand and force the government to comply.

The left portrays the government as a malevolent entity controlled by the oligarchy who seek to exploit us. The right portrays it as malevolent entity controlled by the intelligentsia intent on social engineering.

Everyone tries to manipulate us and prey on our emotions and sense of morality. How could you support military action that kills people! How could you leave innocent women and children to be raped and murdered!

Politically, ALL the parties are out to manipulate or lure me not educate me.

Everyone thinks I should listen only to them because they are the experts and so obviously right and I am too ill-informed to have the right to an opinion even as they try to persuade me to share theirs.

That's K51's position. I'm not entitled to an opinion because the issues are way too complex for me to evaluate without knowing more history. I must study first. It's the same message sent from the right. The issues are way too complex plus there are secrets only the PM and top advisors can know. I can't possibly know enough to judge. So basically everyone just wants my blind support and if they don't get it they put me down.

That is why I can accuse others of being elitist. It frustrates me to see the attitudes of the right reflected in the left.

I am not a stupid person or one without conscience or the ability to reason. I'm an average voter. I'm not as far left as most people here but I am far left of center and open to social justice issues. I may not have the knowledge that many of you have on various issues but that doesn't mean I am without insight or don't have a valuable perspective to offer. More people like me than people like you determine the future. Realistically, we are not all going to study activist's issues. 

To have a revolution in a relatively wealthy democracy requires finesse and respect for the majority.

Pondering, your reply is nonsense.

Paladin1

Pondering wrote:

 

All I said is that I support advisors going because because we are being asked for our help and they do need it. I didn't present a huge complex argument designed to convince people to agree with me. There was no prothelizing on my part; no need for over-the-top accusations.

 

Sending advisor to teach the Kurds how to protect themselves isn't a bad thing.

ISIS forces are not just mad farmers who have picked up AK47s or burried some IEDs on the side of the road.   In one of the videos I watched they were doing complex rehearsals like western forces are apt to do.

They've got their training somewhere (probably the US) and it shows.   800 of them managed to sweep through an estimated 30'000 Iraqui soldiers who themselves recieved years of US training and billions in sophisticated gear.

Ripple

Paladin1 wrote:

 

Sending advisor to teach the Kurds how to protect themselves isn't a bad thing.

 

This made me laugh.  What will we teach the Kurds?

I haven't yet sorted out how to paste in the new babble, but I found these to be interesting reads:

opendemocracy.net  -  "A new kind of freedom born in terror" by Yvo Fitzherbert, August 26, 2014

links.org.au/node/4002  -  "Kurds mobilize to fight Islamic State over vast front" by Dave Holmes, August 12, 2014

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 

I came in for this post  as I thought it was important-- I share the frustration of others with the current direction of this site - not sure what to say other than I did not post yesterday and doubt I'll post tomorrow... It really has titled away from being a progressive site. If you don't challenge the non- progressive posts it is just another mainstream site and if you engage them the few other progressives will complain that you are giving them air. Forgetting the whole thing seems to make more sense.

 

I'm reluctantly beginning to think you're right. If we have to put up politely with loquacious passive-aggressive posts from NATO-lovers and gun-lovers and supporters of criminalizing sex work and "let's go help the Kurds", then I might as well be having those debates where I debate everything - in the union, among fellow workers, where the ground rules are different, and where everything is up for grabs. We still need a site where progressives can discuss strategy and developments, but it can't be one that instantly degenerates into this kind of stuff.

Sorry for the thread drift. But the deluge is getting worse than the drift.

ETA: By the way Sean, what do you have against Brazil?

 

Nothing at all -- Brazil is one of the top 5 -- I just would not draw the line there -- excluding both Europe and Africa.

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Nothing at all -- Brazil is one of the top 5 -- I just would not draw the line there -- excluding both Europe and Africa.

OMG sorry, I misread your post - you included Brazil! Idiot! (me, that is).

NDPP

Warning To War Supporters  -  by David Swanson

http://warisacrime.org/content/warning-war-supporters

"I know you mean well..."

Ripple

Forgot that I'm a new poster to some. In case it's not clear: I oppose intervention, and think it is a very bad idea. The West has been providing solutions in the Middle East for some time now, and it seems to me to always be the cause of the next disaster.

I also think it's kind of arrogant to think we have much to teach the Kurds. If you read the articles I posted (again, sorry for the format), we might find there are things we could learn, though.

Paladin1

Ripple wrote:
Forgot that I'm a new poster to some. In case it's not clear: I oppose intervention, and think it is a very bad idea. The West has been providing solutions in the Middle East for some time now, and it seems to me to always be the cause of the next disaster. I also think it's kind of arrogant to think we have much to teach the Kurds. If you read the articles I posted (again, sorry for the format), we might find there are things we could learn, though.

 

 ISIS attacked a numerically superior enemy at over 1:37 odds  who had sophiscitaed weapons and cut through them with ease. 

The Kurds recognize they need help and they are also asking for it.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

Ripple wrote:
Forgot that I'm a new poster to some. In case it's not clear: I oppose intervention, and think it is a very bad idea. The West has been providing solutions in the Middle East for some time now, and it seems to me to always be the cause of the next disaster. I also think it's kind of arrogant to think we have much to teach the Kurds. If you read the articles I posted (again, sorry for the format), we might find there are things we could learn, though.

 

 ISIS attacked a numerically superior enemy at over 1:37 odds  who had sophiscitaed weapons and cut through them with ease. 

The Kurds recognize they need help and they are also asking for it.

Fine, let them get it from someone else. Canada has not interest in this.

6079_Smith_W

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Fine, let them get it from someone else. Canada has not interest in this.

Sadly our PM does. Though perhaps there is an ulterior motive. He wouldn't be the first political leader to see his numbers climb by jumping on the war bandwagon. He just wants to do it on the cheap.

 

takeitslowly

ISIS is just pure evil. I think someone has to do something regardless.

NDPP

US To Rapidly Expand War in Iraq and Syria    -   by Peter Symonds

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/09/12/iraq-s12.html

"While ISIS 'terrorists' are the nominal target, the new US-led war in the Middle East is above all a revival of plans shelved a year ago for the toppling of Syrian President Bashar al Assad.

Russia's foreign ministry warned that any US action, ' in the absence of a UN Security Council decision, would be an act of aggression, a gross violation of international law.'..."

Paladin1

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

 Canada has not interest in this.

Sadly our PM does.

 

Not just our PM but many Canadians too.

Quote:
He wouldn't be the first political leader to see his numbers climb by jumping on the war bandwagon.

The conservatives rode the yellow-ribbon train to victory during Afghanistan under the guise about being 'for the troops. I think Canadians are on to that trick now though.

swallow swallow's picture

There's an optimistic view; I hope Canadians are. ;)

Appreciate your agreeing on the UN point Paladin. Ideally the UN would be int he lead tackling this; sadly the Security Council membership is so disfunctional that a UN security lead seems close to impossible (but it's entirely likely that the UN will eventually be asked to come in and clean up someon else's mess). 

iyraste1313

"a site where progressives can discuss strategy and developments"

This I agree is sorely lacking, and yes I agree that respect is tantamount!
There`s no point in hostility to normal Canadians totally blindsighted by the Orwellian media we are saturated with...

Re strategy...first we must challenge the right of the zionists to finance ISIS through their oil trade agreements. This is documented.

What material support is Canada supplying to the rebel groups in Syria which are in alliance with ISIS?

This is a clear violation of international law, crimes against the Peace re Nuremburg, and we must support any legal initiative to take Canada to the World Court! Not to mention Canada´s courts which deny the right of any Canadian institution to support terrorism.

Not to mention Canada´s charitable zionist organizations raising funds for the criminal activities of their zionist state! 

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

The USA has extended influence. Europe has extended influence. Russia has extended influence. Notice how they are all predominantly white. 3/11 out of a population of 1/6 is not fair.

If the EU can join as an entity, so can the OAU. When one of the African states breaks a certain threshold, it should be able to apply for a seat as well.

Neither of us have thought about an Islamic Union either, and this could potentially cover 1 billion people.

When you get to a quorum of 11, giving every one a veto means everything will get vetoed.

I still say, Europe and Russia, go to hell. There is plenty of white representation of power and influence through the USA. If NATO wants to make a seat instead of the USA, that might work, and cover most of Europe. Maybe Russia should join NATO. It would solve a lot of current world problems.

So say we had 6:

China, India, Brazil, OAU, Islamic States, and NATO.

 

Pondering

iyraste1313 wrote:
There`s no point in hostility to normal Canadians totally blindsighted by the Orwellian media we are saturated with...

Thank-you for that. Part of strategy is going to have to be rethinking how to reach people. Gathering one or two line facts would help people put what is happening in perspective. I'd like to know more facts about our participation in the arms industry.

Unionist

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Brilliant political cartoon, Unionist. The hypocrisy is nothing new but the concurrent juxtaposition is just gobsmacking.

JKR

montrealer58 wrote:

The USA has extended influence. Europe has extended influence. Russia has extended influence. Notice how they are all predominantly white. 3/11 out of a population of 1/6 is not fair.

If the EU can join as an entity, so can the OAU. When one of the African states breaks a certain threshold, it should be able to apply for a seat as well.

Neither of us have thought about an Islamic Union either, and this could potentially cover 1 billion people.

When you get to a quorum of 11, giving every one a veto means everything will get vetoed.

I still say, Europe and Russia, go to hell. There is plenty of white representation of power and influence through the USA. If NATO wants to make a seat instead of the USA, that might work, and cover most of Europe. Maybe Russia should join NATO. It would solve a lot of current world problems.

So say we had 6:

China, India, Brazil, OAU, Islamic States, and NATO.

I don't think the UK and France are about to voluntarily give up their veto powers so I think they're there to stay for the foreseeable future. That being said other countries should be added as permanent Security Council members, countries such as India, Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan, Nigeria, and Japan. This revamped Security Council could also set up it's own independent peacekeeping force to deal with situations like the current ones in Syria and Iraq.

Another option could be for a global election of the UN Secretary General that would give that person the political clout to better lead efforts to defend and promote global peace.  Or maybe UN representatives could be directly elected by the world's people and that would give the UN much more political clout to deal with international issues. An elected UN General Assembly and an elected UN Security General overseeing a global peacekeeping force might be a way to bring about a much greater global peace.

I think that would be much better than having NATO remain the globe's very biased police force.

Maybe one day the NDP and other progressive political parties around the world will endorse a democratically elected United Nations?

Pondering

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/11/syrian-rebels-isis_n_5806386.ht...

“If the international community doesn’t intervene soon, I expect the FSA will flee -- or we’ll all be beheaded,” .....

“The blood of Syrians is on the hands of the international community,” al-Helo boomed, the men around him nodding in agreement....

They blame the United States and its allies, whose promises of support have failed to materialize in the past, for the rise of the Islamic State. And they don’t know how much longer they’ll last battling two formidable enemies. 

“ISIS has grown so big because no one did anything,” said Abdullah Shama, a middle-aged fighter with a commanding presence who was the oldest in the room. “It’s the making of the outside world. We, the FSA, are dying.”

...

“It may be too late to provide effective support, at least quickly,” Austin Long, a professor of security policy at Columbia University, told The WorldPost. “The worst situation would be to dump a lot of weapons on the rebels when they are weak. This would be a golden opportunity for the Islamic State to concentrate attacks on them in order to seize the weapons (as happened with the Iraqi Army).”

“At best a flow of money for recruitment and extensive training of those recruits could then produce a force capable of making use of new weapons and potentially U.S. air support to fight the Islamic State."

......

The group of fighters gathered in the Turkish border town said they usually make roughly $50 a month. But they’ve heard that Islamic State fighters can make $600 or more....

“Some leave because they need to help their families survive, and ISIS is well-funded,” explained Abu Ahmed. He calls himself a manager for the Hazem Movement, which reportedly has been supplied with a small number of anti-tank missiles from the West. “And because they fear ISIS. They aren’t traitors.”

Ali Rasheed, a 24-year-old former regime soldier who joined the FSA two and a half years ago, lamented his situation. “ISIS has salaries, good salaries they can live on,” he complained. He came to Turkey for a few days to recover after being shot in the chest fighting the regime. “They have food, equipment, someone looking out for their needs. They have oil. We are in the middle of battle and it’s a catastrophe. We are lacking many things.”

 

jjuares

laine lowe wrote:

Brilliant political cartoon, Unionist. The hypocrisy is nothing new but the concurrent juxtaposition is just gobsmacking.

It never fails to amaze me that on Monday we are told who are new enemy is and byTuesday large numbers of people are supporting military action against the new enemy in places many people couldn't find on a map.

NDPP

Canada Signs Up For Washington's New Mideast War  -  by Keith Jones

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/09/13/cnda-s13.html

"No one should give any credence to the Harper government's pledge that the CAF will not be involved in a 'combat mission' in Iraq, or that Canada will not join military action against Syria..."

Unionist

Humberto da Silva weighs in on rabble tv:

[url=http://rabble.ca/rabbletv/program-guide/2014/09/not-rex/harper-goes-to-w... goes to war! What's he trying to prove?[/url]

 

iyraste1313

¨Part of strategy is going to have to be rethinking how to reach people......¨

This is not the key problem!
A day of wreckoning is soon upon us.....except for the finance capitalists and their corporate elites and especially the war mongers, the populations continues to suffer more, and yet the final crisis, which may now be looming, is still to come.

We cannot reach the vast majority lost in the matrix of the mass media entertainment with words and ideas...it will come where it hurts, joblessness, homelessness and violence, hunger and sickness from the crap they call food in canada.

The key problem rests in the fact that people of conscience, with spiritual/ideological  values beyond the pursuit of money are lost in the delusions of representational totally corrupted democracy and totally disunited to prepare the suffering people with real alternatives!

This war against ISIS is a distraction to continue the delusions and lack of alternative

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

Democracy that gives one person one vote, over the power over them, is the best idea we have so far. I think democracy should apply in the workplace, and I think that a world government, elected by the world, would be a transitional stage to a world where there is no government.

Saying that you question democracy shows you have no consideration for the rights of others. I will not be governed by your sense of right and wrong. I will not be governed by your 'spiritual authority'. You can cram that where the sun does not shine.

Democracies are purer than dictatorships and theocracies, and do not require the inhabitants to pay tributes or make sacrifices. In modern Germany, there is a good participation by unions in the economy. They have taken democracy futher than government, and have brought it into the workplace. Germany is probably the best place for a worker to be now. Unions and management cooperate, rather than take the confrontational approach of the British and the North Americans.

That is because of democracy. So to say you are somehow 'spiritually advanced' because you don't belive in 'democracy' means that you want to be a Pharaoh, or you worship someone like Him. You are displaying a severe lack of education if you don't think democracy is a good thing.

We are totally opposed to slavery, which is what a theocracy means to us. Decide the 'us' and 'them', and then slaughter the 'them' in the name of the Holy Spirit or your favorite god-thing. Dictatorships? Look what we did to Hitler and Mussolini. And we will do it to you if you think you can replace them. We will hang your corpse upside down in the square, and men will come along and urinate on you.

Again, I ask you to read the UN declaration on Human Rights. In no religion do they explicitly prohibit slavery and torture. You have to extrapolate it, and then somone will always call you a heretic or false prophet worshipper. Fighting slavery and torture is a good cause. The better world tends to come as a by-product.

iyraste1313

re montrealer 58...you missed the point entirely...I referred to representational democracy as obviously opposed to direct democracy in some form or other.

My logic stands...you vote for a rep who is beholden to his or her financiers, his or her party elite who in turn is controlled by their financiers, either directly or through corporate unions, and all under the control of the corporate media starting in canada with the CBC financed through the tar sands lobby, the nuclear lobby, etc.

I appreciate your passion for justice and democracy, may it lead to some real solutions to bring justice and democracy to Canada.

Anyone who belives we have justice and democracy in Canada, should take a few moments to walk outside and feel the real world....

And yes I plan soon to return to canada back to pass through the BC west coast which is soon to become a nuclear waste sacrifice zone, and travel on up into the mountains to feel  death  at the hands of the party support for the corporations which have made a sacrifice zone out of traditional Shuswap territory

NDPP

Where, Iyraste1313, as perhaps you already know, you wll find people who know full well there is no 'democracy' here only vicious corporate colonialism against which we will all have to make a stand sooner or later...or as is more likely with most Canucklheads, continue to live in lies and delusions. As good a place from which to fight the Predators as any hereabouts

Pondering, the FSA, Free Syrian Army is no alternative to ISIS. Go to the Syria thread and educate yourself there or elsewhere if you are in any way seriously interested.

Here's an example of the West's FSA proxies in action, supported by Canadian pols who ultimately never oppose the interests of empire whether you vote for Coke, Pepsi or Canada Dry..

June 09, 2014 Western Complicity in a Massacre of Armenians at Kassab, Syria

http://www.pacificfreepress.com/rss/13356-western-complicity-is-a-massac...

March 21, 2014. The Kassab, Syria international border crossing with Turkey. Al Qaeda affiliated terrorists with the Free Syrian Army. They were from various nationalities, but all united under the black flag of Radical Islam, which is not a religion or sect, or faith based, but strictly a political ideology, devoid of any humanity or the peace and love of Islam.

These are Free Syrian Army and their Al Qaeda affiliates fighting under the flag of Turkey..."

 

Terrorist In Chief  - by David Rovics

http://youtu.be/6ZTkYPRpXJE

"Obama gave a speech, I wrote a song..."

Pondering

I did read your link NDPP but I also went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army for a nutshell over view.

The mid east is a brutal complex place. The Western world has been very complicite in creating the conditions that encourage brutality. In almost all cases I agree that intervention is wrong. The US has a responsibility towards Iraq because they broke it recently. I'm sympathetic to the Kurds but I would not send ground troops at this time. Advisors and equipment I would.

iyraste1313

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/12/how-the-west-created-the-islamic-...

Hmm, so The IS is funneling its oil (I wonder who provided these people with the technical knowhow) to the Kurdish regional Government for loading on tankers destined for Pakistan, USA and Israel as well as unknown European destinations...

The regional alliance of Turkey, Israel and Kurdistan and now with ISIS are making windfall profits¿
And at a time when the Yen carry trade is tanking bringing about major financial crises in the so called emerging countries, especially Turkey? So that Turkey will back this 100% to avoid total bankruptcy?

Yes we need advisors and equipment to the Kurds, maybe engineers to help the oil alliance get more of its oil fields into production?

And yes advisors to help the USA pinpoint their aerial strikes to make sure the Syrian military targets oops I mean ISIS are hit with pinpoint accuracy...

It is a pretty sick evil game being played by the West`s dark forces...but good to see that Canada the fools that we are, are coming to their aid......

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering wrote:

I did read your link NDPP but I also went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army for a nutshell over view.

The mid east is a brutal complex place. The Western world has been very complicite in creating the conditions that encourage brutality. In almost all cases I agree that intervention is wrong. The US has a responsibility towards Iraq because they broke it recently. I'm sympathetic to the Kurds but I would not send ground troops at this time. Advisors and equipment I would.

And the drums of war continue to be beat by self-identifying "progressives", at Rabble, Canda's, "Progressive" website.

Right.

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:
And the drums of war continue to be beat by self-identifying "progressives", at Rabble, Canda's, "Progressive" website.

Right.

If you want to discuss me you can do it here:

http://rabble.ca/babble/introductions/pondering#comment-1457330

Or if your concern is the type of posters permitted here this thread my suit you better but they don't want to talk about me either so you would have to keep it general.

http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/current-mess-and-addition-new-f...

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:
And the drums of war continue to be beat by self-identifying "progressives", at Rabble, Canda's, "Progressive" website.

Right.

If you want to discuss me you can do it here:

http://rabble.ca/babble/introductions/pondering#comment-1457330

Or if your concern is the type of posters permitted here this thread my suit you better but they don't want to talk about me either so you would have to keep it general.

http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/current-mess-and-addition-new-f...

 

Another nonsesnse reply Pondering; good job!

ETA: I'll tell you why its nonsense, Pondering.

In a recent post, you told me you aren't a Pacifist. Yet, you speak about the use of Ground Troops. Lets think about this.

You have also said you would advise anyone not to join the CF. And you said, you would never join the CF. The ONY conclusion that can be dranwn form your own words is that you want others to endanger their lives, and do your fighting, for you. You expect them to go off and serve, but feel no moral obligation to do so yourself and none of your currently posted words, no concern for their ultimate welfare. What that says to me is you lack Character, and the courage of your conviction. You are "all hat, and no cattle". If you don't understand that saying, ask Trudeau.

Yeah, you stay at home. In the Field, the only person's back you'd have is your own. As a 20 plus year CF Naval Vet, I consider your stance, to say the least, objectionable. It is objectionable, and a perfect display of how not to meet your obligations as a Canadian Citizien. But its OK, you are welcome for my years of service watching your back while you slept in your warm, dry, safe, bed. Yeah, yeah, I know, I shouldn't expect any thanks, etc., blah, blah, insert counter argument here. Stop posting links directing me how to respond, and try speaking for yourself, directly, without the double-speak and clever banter, just for once.

eastnoireast

takeitslowly wrote:

ISIS is just pure evil. I think someone has to do something regardless.

 

"we had to do something"  was the rallying cry for canada to go help murder a bunch of iraqi folks, back in the day.

funnily enough, we didn't "have to do something" about gaza, or america, or the egyption junta, or guantanimo, or turkey as they bombed the kurds.

lots of things are pure, or at least 90% evil - including "bombing for peace" and support thereof.

regardless.


 

eastnoireast

Arthur Cramer wrote:

 

And the drums of war continue to be beat by self-identifying "progressives", at Rabble, Canda's, "Progressive" website.

Right.

 

isn't there something we all agree to when we sign up to rabble that says the parameters include some basic starting points - like not supporting warism, racism, sexism, etc?   

there is a lot of that bullshit here now, dragging the conversation down to "should we or should we not support harper's warmongering". 

no, no we should not.

 

NDPP

Energy Geopolitics and the US 'Mission' in Iraq and Syria  -  by Rob Urie

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/12/energy-geopolitics-and-the-u-s-mi...

"...The war against IS has taken on an air of self-evidence in the US media [Canada's too!] without many details being put forward to support it. 'Defeating terrorism' has been the standard line of murderous demagogues for decades and Mr Obama just recently acceded to Israel's murder of over two thousand captive Palestinians under the claim that any who were slaughtered were 'terrorists.' by way of the fact they are now dead.

The Syrian government could legitimately claim that the opposition the US is funding in Syria is 'terrorist' within the frame Mr Obama is putting forward.

And left wholly unstated, is the relation through energy geopolitics of Mr Obama's military 'coalition' in Europe [and including Canada] with the US proxy war in Ukraine.

And even Mr Obama's remaining 'liberal' supporters must cringe when serial catastrophe generator Dick Cheney is 'recommending' the same essential policies for the Middle East that Mr Obama is..."

 

'Moderate' Syria Rebels Sign Non Aggression Pact With ISIS  -  by Jason Dix

http://news.antiwar.com/2014/09/12/moderate-syria-rebels-sign-non-aggres...

"ISIS and other significant rebel factions, including both Islamist and 'moderate' groups have signed a mutual non-aggression pact in a Damascus suburb. The pact was said to have been brokered by al-Qaeda's Jabhat al Nusra, and agrees that all sides will respect a truce until the destruction of the 'Nussayri' regime, a perjorative term for Alawites.

The move comes as the Obama administration pushes to provide more arms to the various non-ISIS rebel factions, on the notion that those rebels can be used against ISIS.

That certainly doesn't seem to be the plan as far as those rebels are concerened, though they will no doubt accept the US arms and, as usual, share them with ISIS..."

Pondering

I am still on the side of helping the Kurds, but I have been reading and I am being influenced. I am not alone in this thread for wanting to help the Kurds. We are not bad people for this. At the very worst we are naive.

At this point westerners have swamped the Mid East with weapons and used factions against one another and trained terrorists etc. ad infinitum. Pakistan is a nuclear power.

Even if we could stop shipping all weapons tomorrow and washed our hands of the area it would still be a mess and they would still hate us with enormous passion and they would stil want to destroy us.

The "do nothing" alternative doesn't seem like a solution.

Arthur, it didn't occur to me that you would choose to continue attacking me in this thread. I will copy and respond to all of your attacks from this thread here: http://rabble.ca/babble/introductions/pondering#comment-1457330

Moving my response to the following to the Current Mess thread at http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/current-mess-and-addition-new-f...

eastnoireast wrote:

isn't there something we all agree to when we sign up to rabble that says the parameters include some basic starting points - like not supporting warism, racism, sexism, etc?   

there is a lot of that bullshit here now, dragging the conversation down to "should we or should we not support harper's warmongering". 

no, no we should not.

Pondering

dp

Unionist

Pondering wrote:

Even if we could stop shipping all weapons tomorrow and washed our hands of the area it would still be a mess and they would still hate us with enormous passion and they would stil want to destroy us.

The White Christian Imperialist "US". No accident that "US" also means United States.

Babble drolly adopted an anti-imperialist policy statement once. Must have got lost in the wash. In the crunch, we'll slaughter them all, because they hate "US".

 

Pondering

Unionist wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Even if we could stop shipping all weapons tomorrow and washed our hands of the area it would still be a mess and they would still hate us with enormous passion and they would stil want to destroy us.

The White Christian Imperialist "US". No accident that "US" also means United States.

Babble drolly adopted an anti-imperialist policy statement once. Must have got lost in the wash. In the crunch, we'll slaughter them all, because they hate "US".

True they hate Americans most, and I guess Europeans second, but Canada still shows up on the list.

The fact that "we" (meaning the western world) are responsible for their hatred doesn't change the fact that we can't just wash our hands of the situation and pretend we will henceforth be safe.

Unionist

Yeah, go kill 'em and "we" will be safe.

Paladin1

Pondering wrote:

 

True they hate Americans most, and I guess Europeans second

 

that didn't stop David Haines, a British born international aid worker, from getting his head cut off.

Quote:

Over the past decade and a half he'd worked with a variety of aid agencies, writes the BBC: "He had worked with a German charity on post-war reconstruction projects in Croatia, including housing and demining. He was also involved in efforts to help displaced people to return to their homes. In 2011 he became Head of Mission in Libya for Handicap International," an organization that works to help vulnerable people with disabilities.

"The following year he joined another agency, the Nonviolence Peaceforce (NP), and went to South Sudan," where he worked as an unarmed civilian peacekeeper.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/09/13/348292090/isis-video-purp...

I don't think anyone is safe from these people.

 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

I don't think anyone is safe from these people.

No one is safe from lightning either, but if you live in North America, you are much more likely to be killed by lightning than by ISIS, or as you so charmingly put it "these people".

mersh
Paladin1

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

I don't think anyone is safe from these people.

No one is safe from lightning either, but if you live in North America, you are much more likely to be killed by lightning than by ISIS, or as you so charmingly put it "these people".

Is that a Robert Downing Jr reference?

Lots of people over there  running for their lives and would probably love to take their chances with lightning at the moment.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Unionist wrote:
Yeah, go kill 'em and "we" will be safe.

Is Trudeau gong to b e a "War Prime Minister"?

Unionist

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Unionist wrote:
Yeah, go kill 'em and "we" will be safe.

Is Trudeau gong to b e a "War Prime Minister"?

If we don't stop this madness about Iraq now, then it's very possible. Or whoever wins that election.

 

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