He who wishes to fight must first count the cost-Sun Tzu

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He who wishes to fight must first count the cost-Sun Tzu

It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War



thorin_bane wrote:

It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War


There is a profitable way of prosecuting war? What's his name? Sun Tzu?

We need to hire him as CEO of our marketing department. - Thus sprach the arms industry.


Canada originally purchased 66 Stryker Mobile Gun System vehicles in 2003, which were expected to arrive in 2010. However, in 2006 the Canadian Forces asked its government to cancel the MGS acquisition(from wiki on stryker)

And while I do in a way like the idea of our Military being equiped properly and the Leopard2 being a very good battletank if not one of the best, it doesn't do a lot of good fighting non tank units in the desert of afghanistan. Add to this that they were surplus (like those damn subs billion dollar diesel subs, what a deal they were) and not suppose to cost us very much we get this story;


Canada's purchase and long-term support of 100 slightly used Leopard 2A6 battle tanks will be $1.3 billion — roughly double the Conservative government's initial public estimate last month.

As he detailed a laundry list of military hardware the Conservative government plans to buy over the next few years, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor surprised the Commons Thursday by announcing there will be a 20-year, $650-million service contract attached to the tank deal.

So again we are seeing a pattern of selling product and then double the cost with a Factory authorized service agent. So to speak.



Defence Minister Peter MacKay and Public Works Minister Christian Paradis formally announced Thursday that Canada will buy six used CH-47D Chinooks from the Americans for $292 million.

The plan is virtually identical to a proposal that was rejected by air force staff in August 2006, according to documents obtained by The Canadian Press.

Before the Chinooks arrive in Kandahar early next year, just under the wire for the February 2009 deadline imposed by the Manley commission, the air force plans to lease six Soviet-style helicopters from a commercial company for $36 million.



In releted news:


Ottawa will spend $4.7 billion to purchase and maintain 16 new military helicopters, the defence minister said Wednesday.

The amount is part of $15 billion being announced this week for new equipment for the Canadian Forces. Of the $4.7 billion, $2 billion will cover the purchase of the helicopters and the rest will go toward their maintenance for about 20 years.

snip from link

This is the third consecutive day that O'Connor has announced defence spending.

On Tuesday, he promised the military 2,300 new high-tech logistics trucks at a cost of  $1.2-billion.

In Halifax on Monday, O'Connor announced a $2.1-billion plan to build three navy supply ships.

What supply ships are these?


But wait thers more!


OTTAWA -- The feds are promising -- again -- to build new support ships for $2.6 billion that will help the Navy stay out at sea longer.


While the two shipyards that will build the vessels have not been chosen, Defence Minister Peter MacKay promised the ships will be built in Canada.

The support ships are part of the government's $35 billion plan to build 28 large vessels and 100 smaller ships for the Navy and Coast Guard over the next 30 years.


In 2008, the Conservatives scrapped a plan to build three new supply ships for $2.9 billion when contractors were unable to meet the requirements for the government's low price.

In 2007, the government pledged to build six to eight Arctic patrol ships for $3.1 billion, the first of which could arrive by 2014.

In 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced plans for a new flagship icebreaker, the Diefenbaker, for $720 million. That massive 140-metre-long, made-in-Canada icebreaker will be able to break through nearly three metres of ice and be ready by 2017.

Appologies to sun media as the bulk of the article is reprinted here, its short please use the link.


This thread is going to look at how our present pro-war anti-soldier government has been either big spenders or just re-announcing the same spending time and time again. All the while deciding to deplete funding to Veterans Affairs.

The hypocracy is mind numbing. Those that claim the conservatives support the troops(I guess only as long as they are fighting) will need to justify big spending while everything else is cut back. This includes support for the very people that didn't have the fortune to die(no disrespect implied), but instead were seriously maimed and now watch as their support is withdrawn by the very people that sent them to war in the first place.

Feel free to help find and verify one time spending by the current government on military expenditures. I don't know if we should include the cost of war in afghanistan or not. Please discuss and help fill out this line of thought.


The government defended its decision Friday to spend at least $9-billion for the latest generation of fighter jets — one of the biggest military purchases in Canadian history — without a single competing bid.


Ok, you are starting a thread on a left winged activist site, about the best way to build your military? Is that correct?


How about this? If the bourgeoisie want to protect their capitalist country state of exploitation, then they should spill their own blood and leave the working class out of it. We are to bussy trying to find more time for our friends and family.


How about the productive forces of the world be used for building homes and planting crops, not building fighter jets?




remind remind's picture

wrong take on thorin's posts trippie.


No the thread is suppose to figure out the tab the cons are building for war making. I'll admit I haven't done a good job. I found some links to spending announcements, but we don't know if there is a time frame on payments or which ones are still even active.

While I think some military procurement is in order, its hard to justify it for invading another nation and not defending ours(the only reason for a military) or multiuse function like ice breaker patrols with search and rescue capabilities. If it is going to be a non bid tender it should only go to a canadian company. Period. So much reaks about our military purchases.

This thread can then be used to see if the military has been put into the general revenues (is this what is putting us in deficit now?) or is it off the books Enron style with creative accounting. The military spending if on the books, will push a big deficit number (just look at the announcements) and an excuse to start chopping social programs like the ones trippie mentioned.Or if not could be a cover for the bank bailout we had while still allowing for spending cuts.

Plus you would think we had already spent 300 billion with how many times things have been re announced.  If we are going to argue something, it would be nice to have the proper data to fight with. If you are prepared you don't look stupid. If go and say "They have spent 300 Billion in the last 4 years" and they say actually it was 45 Billion over 10 years, we would look pretty uninformed and chicken little the sky is falling type.

If your numbers are accurate you sound more intelligent and can better justify your own position without inflating things for no reason. See the gun registry which some conservatives would tell you is 5 billion when it was only(loosely put) a billion and we aren't even sure on that because no one knows how much was spent on it. Still less than the g summit swindle. (as a side note, deer hurst in clements riding is now for sale after taxpayer upgrades. It is listed as a numbered corporation. Would like to know who owns that corp. I suspect a conservative maybe even steamboat tony) ETA the chainlink fence was built in alabama and purchased through a chatham compony and is reselling it as part of their contract. Were they paid in full for the fence to start with?

So we need our best data for the information wars without inflating costs. If you are on the numbers, people will give see you as a doing your homework and being credible. If you inflate and blow it out of proportion it seems like you are ranting as oppose to being critical of spending.

I hope that clears things up.




Wiki bio on our Minister of Defence:




Born in Toronto, Ontario, he has a B.Sc. in Mathematics and Physics from Concordia University (Montreal) and a BA in Philosophy from York University.

He served over 30 years in the Canadian Army, starting as a Second Lieutenant in the Armour Branch and retiring with the rank of Brigadier-General.

O'Connor then entered the private sector as Vice-President of Business Development for a large facility management firm, and Vice-President of Operations for a vehicle testing centre. He was a Senior Associate with Hill & Knowlton Canada, a worldwide public relations, public affairs and strategic communications company. O'Connor has also been a lobbyist for several defence industryBAE Systems (1996 to 2004), General Dynamics (1996 to 2001), Atlas Elektronik GmbHAirbus Military (2001 to 2004).[1] companies. 


Forgiving tax bills

As Minister of National Revenue, O'Connor issued a remission order forgiving the tax bills of 35 former SDL Optics Inc. employees. The employees had used stock options to buy shares in their company for a fraction of their market value. The options were taxable and the shareholders owed hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes.

O'Connor's order was made against the advice of Canada Revenue Agency commissioner William Baker. Tax professionals called it favouritism and "purely political."[24] Most of the affected employees lived in the riding of fellow Conservative Cabinet Minister Gary Lunn.



O'Corruptor... sorry, O'Connor is also on our favorite Board of Internal Economy, which you may remember wants to keep MP's expenses secret.








Airbus....Airbus.... that's ringing a bell somewhere..... oh well, that's the problem with getting old.... But I've heard of Airbus before.....


Seriously the more you dig the more it feels like the US of A in good ol Canada these days. Iggy might as well call himself Kerry

I never thought we would see levels of corruption so brazen as this lot. Try to keep it under control you fools. They just can't help themselves. Just like senate patronage and the globe trotting they have been doing. No account on how much travel expenses(outside of personal ones) the cons have run up while galivanting across the world.