How likely is it that Trudeau's turban incident might shame those voters....

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture
How likely is it that Trudeau's turban incident might shame those voters....

...especially those in Quebec, who were refusing to vote NDP over Singh's turban and beard into letting go of that particular stupidity?

I realize that electoral politics should not be the main concern at this moment, and if somebody wants this thread taken down or locked, then that's fair...but it seemed a legitimate question as to whether this incident would get through to the people who have made a big deal over what should be the non-issue of Singh's appearance.

voice of the damned

I realize that electoral politics should not be the main concern at this moment

As I think I've already said, the NDP backroomers are almost certainly analyzing this blackface scandal from an electoral perspective, so I don't see any reason why those of us among the great unwashed should refrain from doing so.

How likely is it that Trudeau's turban incident might shame those voters......especially those in Quebec, who were refusing to vote NDP over Singh's turban and beard into letting go of that particular stupidity?

Assuming Quebec is roughly like the rest of Canada in this regard, I'd wager there is a large venn overlap between "Don't like turbans" and "Think ethnic party-costumes are okay". So, I'm not sure if I see much potetial for "shaming" here.

Basically, this is the kind of thing where, if you already liked the guy to begin with, you're gonna think that either a) blackface is no big deal, or b) well, okay, blackface is bad, but come on, that was years ago, and his record clearly shows he isn't racist.

That's how I think this is gonna play with most of the people, inside and outside Quebec, who were already planning to vote Liberal. Granted, however, if there are enough people who are serious about their anti-racism, it could make a difference in a few close ridings. Whether that does anything but split the progressive vote in favour of the Conservatives is another matter.

Pondering

The problem is that it has seemed to send more people to the Conservatives rather than to the NDP. 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I lived in Montreal. Nobody seems to care. No scientific poll but I was watching the news and they went to his riding asking people of all colours. They asked around the city as well. They stopped a little more than 15 people and only people had a problem with it, 

Outside of Montreal people are pissing and moaning about something that (A) happened 20 years ago (B) It was an Arabian night themed party and Trudeau was dressed up as Alladin. Christ, it was a costume that may have been offensive to some, but the people piling on Trudeau never heard of something that is done with CONTEXT.. 

It makes it easy to come to the conclusion that it was not offensive taken in context. The Liberals didn't lose much of anything in Quebec.

Paladin1

Ken Burch wrote:

...especially those in Quebec, who were refusing to vote NDP over Singh's turban and beard into letting go of that particular stupidity?

I realize that electoral politics should not be the main concern at this moment, and if somebody wants this thread taken down or locked, then that's fair...but it seemed a legitimate question as to whether this incident would get through to the people who have made a big deal over what should be the non-issue of Singh's appearance.

 

Is this honestly a thing Ken? I'm not suggesting you're making it up of course but have people in Quebec actually admitted to not voting for Singh because of his turban and beard?

swallow swallow's picture

Yes.

Paladin1

Could you share any examples? I haven't found anything.

swallow swallow's picture

Go to Sainte-Hyancinthe or Rimouski or Laval or Pierre Nantel's campaign office and start talking to people. 

It's why the NPD made the ad discussed at https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-jagmeet-singh-addresses-turban-head-on-in-new-quebec-ndp-advertisement/

JeffWells

Just my opinion, but I think the Quebec beneficiaries are most likely to be the BQ and the PPC.

Is shame ever a factor at the ballot box? The closest analogue I can think of is the Tories' "Is this the face of a Prime Minister?" ad. It revolted people, but did it shame anyone into voting for Chretien? Chretien's measured response to it maybe did.

NDPP

 From the chaos engendered by TIME to a modest proposal from WaPo.

Canada's Left Should Dump Justin Trudeau

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/19/canadas-left-should-du...

"...As a conservative, I always hope the Conservative Party of Canada wins elections. It may be that this revelation pushes the Tories into the lead and perhaps returns them to government. But progressive Canadians do not have to choose between a party they don't want and a leader they don't respect..."

"President Trump says he was hoping he wouldn't be asked about the Justin Trudeau blackface photos. 'I'm surprised and I was more surprised when I saw the number of times. I've always had a good relationship with Justin. I just don't know what to tell you..."

https://twitter.com/PnPCBC/status/1175073739794505728

Caveat Emptor? Isn't it obvious we're being played by Washington to replace a compliant Liberal vassal with an even better CON one?

NDPP

'It is Andrew Scheer's Smile But It's Still Stephen Harper's Party'

http://rabble.ca/columnists/2019/08/stephen-harpers-still-politics-game-...

"...The most visible clue to Harper's retaining remote control is his chairing of the ironically named International Democratic Union (IDU). It's the Munich-based alliance of the world's centre-right to right-wing political parties, including the Republicans south of the border and the Conservative Party of Canada here, the reigning Likud party in Israel...His [Harper's] great game continues, and he's still looking to score."

"...Which makes me wonder, seriously, who leaked the incriminating high school annual photo to time magazine? The NDP want their missing mojo back, so their narrative will be similar to that of the Conservatives...Remember back in 2011 when it looked as if the NDP was on a roll and then a story appeared saying leader Jack Layton had been 'found' by police in a massage parlour 15 years before...?"  David Climenhaga, rabble.ca

"The truth is that the elites kept Trudeau's secrets for 20 years. This is not about non-white people. This is a fight among the elites who have decided to use 'race' to bring down their boy. We are collateral damage in this process."

https://twitter.com/blacklikewho/status/1174719867662024705

Aristotleded24

If there's one thing I've learned about PC outrage culture, it's that liberals use that as a club with which to hit people on the right. It makes them appear to be so much more enlightened than everyone else without having to actually do anything meaningful. A few examples. If Scheer or Bernier had been caught doing something like this, definitely the outrage would be off the charts and the Liberals would be demanding resignatinos. Remember elbowgate? Trudeau apologized, everyone said the NDP was making a big deal about violence against women over something that was an accident, and all should be forgiven. Had that gone the other way, had Harper done that and elbowed a female Liberal MP in the process, the outrage from everyone would be off the charts. Take Wab Kinew in Manitoba, with his accusations of domestic violence. People said that the charges were not proven in court, so we should let that drop. I doubt any of Kinew's defenders would have been so generous to someone from the PCs who had been charged in that exact situation. Cenk Ugyr, of The Young Turks, writes offensive things about Native Americans and young women as a young man, but because he said sorry, all can be forgiven. Trump is a horrible sexist because he said he grabbed women. Was Bill Clinton's treatment of Monica Lewinsky any better? Bill has also been accused of rape. Remember w hen Hillary Clinton called black youth superpredators, yet she was supposed to be the hero who would defend black people against racists like Donald Trump? If Laura Bush had said something like that, do you think she would have been forgiven?

See the pattern here? When a conservative does something, it should be treated as the most outrageous thing, and that person should never be forgiven. When a liberal does something, all (s)he has to do is to say sorry and everything is okay.

Pondering

There is nothing okay about what Trudeau did. The calculation is simple. Best case scenario would be PM Singh. Next best would be PM Trudeau minority with Singh balance of power. Worst case scenario would be a Conservative majority. 

It seems if anyone has benefited from this it is the Conservatives. That is not a happy outcome for PoC. Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is something priveleged people can afford. The academic community is always way ahead on analysis which is important for the advancement of justice. Practical concrete improvements for racialized people and all oppressed peoples is more important. 

The NDP will only win when people believe the NDP will do a better job of running the country than the Conservatives or Liberals. 

Paladin1

Aristotleded24 wrote:

 

See the pattern here? When a conservative does something, it should be treated as the most outrageous thing, and that person should never be forgiven. When a liberal does something, all (s)he has to do is to say sorry and everything is okay.

So very true. Model of hypocrisy, that is.

melovesproles

See the pattern here? When a conservative does something, it should be treated as the most outrageous thing, and that person should never be forgiven. When a liberal does something, all (s)he has to do is to say sorry and everything is okay.

That is bullshit. There are lots of examples of Conservatives saying horrific things and there being no consequences for them(in the US this has reached ridiculous extremes).

Apologizing doesn't wash everything away but the intent and context of comments/actions are important as is the plausibility that an apology is sincere. Pretending those things don't matter, is part of the problem.

If Trudeau had said same sex marriage was an abomination in 2003, would the public be as quick to forgive him after an apology? What about if he had said that Palestinians were 'animals' that weren't capable of governing themselves? But that's the kind of shit members of the Conservative movement in North America say? Do you see the difference? Conservatives like to pretend there isn't one.

Increasingly we are seing rightwingers exploit these kinds of conflations and using white'identity politics' as a 'club' to encourage white nationalism. Suporters of Israel have been using 'outrage' culture to attack solidarity with Palestinians.

Political correctness is used as a blanket term and boogeyman of the right and lazy comedians who want easy targets. Pretending it is some kind of Liberal conspiracy to shut down free speech or attack Conservatives ignores the context of racism and power in our societies.  

I thought Vox's Political Correctness explainer episode on Netflix was pretty good. It's time to stop feeding this rightwing narrative about poor Conservatives being judged unfairly by the PC police.

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

 From the chaos engendered by TIME to a modest proposal from WaPo.

Canada's Left Should Dump Justin Trudeau

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/19/canadas-left-should-du...

"...As a conservative, I always hope the Conservative Party of Canada wins elections. It may be that this revelation pushes the Tories into the lead and perhaps returns them to government. But progressive Canadians do not have to choose between a party they don't want and a leader they don't respect..."

"President Trump says he was hoping he wouldn't be asked about the Justin Trudeau blackface photos. 'I'm surprised and I was more surprised when I saw the number of times. I've always had a good relationship with Justin. I just don't know what to tell you..."

https://twitter.com/PnPCBC/status/1175073739794505728

Caveat Emptor? Isn't it obvious we're being played by Washington to replace a compliant Liberal vassal with an even better CON one?

But the guy doesn't argue that Canadians should vote Conservative. He says that he is a conservative, and that he hopes the Conservatives win, but that in a hung parliament, he'd be happy to see the NDP and Greens support the Liberals with the condition that Trudeau resign.

Deserting Trudeau might give victory to the Conservatives, but it might also force the Liberals into relying on NDP and Green votes to stay in government. Those parties could then force Trudeau’s resignation as the price for their support, sending a clear message that puerile and facile moral preening is as unacceptable for advocates of racial and gender equality as for their opponents.

 

voice of the damned

^ As for Trump's remarks, they were pretty much the most milquetoast thing he could have said, short of "no comment". And it's evident from the context that he was saying talking about the issue because someone asked him, not because he was desperate to make a statement on it.  

Aristotleded24

melovesproles wrote:
If Trudeau had said same sex marriage was an abomination in 2003, would the public be as quick to forgive him after an apology? What about if he had said that Palestinians were 'animals' that weren't capable of governing themselves? But that's the kind of shit members of the Conservative movement in North America say? Do you see the difference? Conservatives like to pretend there isn't one.

Increasingly we are seing rightwingers exploit these kinds of conflations and using white'identity politics' as a 'club' to encourage white nationalism. Suporters of Israel have been using 'outrage' culture to attack solidarity with Palestinians.

For one, Hillary Clinton actively fought against same sex marriage when the issue was current.

Yes, I do see a difference. The right is open in their contempt for groups they disagree with. Liberals like to use issues around identiy to present themselves as caring for the underclass while ignoring systemic injustices that led to there being lower classes in the first place.

brookmere

melovesproles wrote:
If Trudeau had said same sex marriage was an abomination in 2003, would the public be as quick to forgive him after an apology?

If you're alluding to Scheer's speech in parliament - which is a rather different context from a costume party - that was in 2005. And not only has Scheer never apologized, he has never said he has changed his mind.

NDPP

There is little daylight between the parties on the question of Irael. The positions are more or less as Israel demands. Nor does there seem to be sufficient political will or critical mass to change this. The NDP reluctance/resistance to a progressive position is particularly problematic. It is high time for NDP  fence-sitters to get their asses onto the right side of this thing so that a particularly critical and long overdue battle against Canada's support for Apartheid Israel can be fought and won as the South African one was.

Pondering

Be that as it may be marginalized people are materially better off under Liberal governments than under Conservative ones. That matters. The Liberals have a piss poor excuse for a pharmacare program but it is bettter than nothing. Trudeau preening over modest improvements in refugee acceptance is agravating but to the refugees they will take it regardless of lack of sincereity. The many children lifted out of poverty with the child tax credit don't care if their parent's votes were bought. I won't be turning my nose up at the increase in the OAS for those over 75 either when the time comes. 

Trudeau is a jerk that is selling us out to corporations and building pipelines instead of investing in transition. Who would you have us vote for Aristotle? Unless I am recalling incorrectly you condemn Singh, I don't think you are a May fan. I doubt you would support Bernier. I'm voting Singh because it is safe to in my riding. Trudeau may not be a better man that Singh but that is not what I am voting for. I am voting for policy. I am voting for the next team to run Canada. Trudeau is selling us down the river with trade deals but it would have been even worse under Harper and would be under Scheer. They would love to be rid of dairy supply management. Scheer intends to try to ram a pipeline through Quebec as if that is possible. 

People are not going to sacrifice their well-being or the well-being of their families on principle unless they have absolutely no choice. In this case people can "forgive" Trudeau because he is way better than the alternative. Trudeau has been badly tarnished by this but people are choosing to interpret it as clueless rather than malicious and they are probably right. 

melovesproles

Yes, I do see a difference. The right is open in their contempt for groups they disagree with. Liberals like to use issues around identiy to present themselves as caring for the underclass while ignoring systemic injustices that led to there being lower classes in the first place.

I disagree that Liberals are the only ones who are using 'identity' in politics. More and more right wingers are playing a double game of railing against 'PC culture gone mad' while using white identity politics and policing criticism of Israel by conflating identity and state. 

But yeah Trudeau and Clinton suck. Pointing that out doesn't require giving credibility to rightwing narratives about PC outrage culture or how Conservatives are picked on unfairly when it comes to their racism or bigotry.

I agree with you that Liberals and Centrists prefer to talk about identity politics and policies that don't threaten their class position or pose any significant disruption to the status-quo. 

This does play into Trudeau's weaknesses - in a bubble, privileged, insincere, hypocritical, intellectually dim. But I doubt this will sink the Liberals in Quebec and Ontario which is what is keeping them relevant.  Ontario Liberals will vote for a can of soup if it has the Liberal brand name - see Ignatieff, Michael.

Aristotleded24

Pondering wrote:
Who would you have us vote for Aristotle?

I'm voting for Leah Gazan in Winnipeg Centre.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

yes. Children's parents were all bought off, they didn't actually make an independant informed willful choice. Hence you are calling people stupid. And as much as I agree with that, only the latter matters.

It's too much for anyone here to concede that the Liberals ran to the Left of the NDP in 2015. The voters clearly were satisfied with the Liberal platfoirm. They decided it was best. And Lo- and behold, the Libs delivered on some of their promises.

I really don't want to hear poeople whine when we are 6 months into the Scheer regime that will have our marching orders from the that rogue,criminal, Nazi supremecist country to the South of us. Immigrant and other minorities will be accosted,assaulted and put in danger in Canada .. Not hyperbole. 

As I asked a while back...you're complaining now ? 

Fuck, we just got rid of Harper and now we are going to take him back? Because someone went to an Arabian Night themed party dressed as Aladdin 20 years ago. Black face, brown face I couldn't care less.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

I simply don't buy the "it was 20 years ago" bullshit.  

As I've relayed on another thread here, 20 years ago I witnessed a person dressed in "blackface" serving breakfast at a restaurant in a small Northern Ontario town on Halloween morning in 2000.    Even the most small town working class "redneckish" person at our breakfast table "got it" that this was incredibly racist and offensive.

The fact that " blackface" was offensive had made it into the consciousness of working class folks 20 years ago but didn't seem to make it into the world of rich private school fratboys tells us what we need to know.

And the working class person at our table who "got it" isn't in charge of fixing the Indigenous water crisis, dealing with Grassy Narrows mercury poisoning or the Safe Third Party agreement with the USA.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

If Scheer and the Tories manage a win, I will 100% blame the arrogant and hypocritical Liberal Party.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

radiorahim wrote:

If Scheer and the Tories manage a win, I will 100% blame the arrogant and hypocritical Liberal Party.

Agreed.

lagatta4

I'm voting for Alexandre Boulerice and thus for Singh. Firstly, I supported Niki Ashton as the most coherent socialist in the pack (yes, her dad was a politico, but so was Trudeau's and several others). She seems deeply committed to justice for Indigenous peoples, for one thing. After meeting Singh, I like him, but I still fear that his "religious sign", as they say here, as if he was selling a temple (or church, mosque or synagogue) will turn off a lot of people here, and not only the kind one thinks of as bigoted or xenophobic.  There is a strong animus to organised religion in Québec, and that is certainly not unabashedly reactionary. I don't believe in telling people how to dress, but sadly it remains a problem.

Pondering and I both live in ridings where if the NDP candidate doesn't win, it will most likely be the Bloc. I have voted Bloc, in Papineau, when the NDP candidate was an unknown and got a minor party vote, but ahead of the Cons. But that is impossible now, as they drifted towards "identitaire" nationalism, far from Gilles Duceppe at his best and Osvaldo Nunez.

WWWTT

radiorahim wrote:

If Scheer and the Tories manage a win, I will 100% blame the arrogant and hypocritical Liberal Party.

LOL. And what if the liberals win? You ok with a racist pm?

Personally I blame democracy, an imperialist invention to maintain corporate control.

Blaming the liberals would be like treating the symptoms and ignoring the disease.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Well if I have to live through Harper 2.0 with a Scheer victory, I think I will have to step away from caring about politics all together. I cannot deal with the hyper vigilance so many of us maintained on issues of women, LGBT, climate and environment, science in general, Indigenous people, immigration, univeral health care and social programs, etc.

It's bad enough to have to keep an eye on every move Pallister or Kenney or Ford make. There is only so much energy one has and ensuring one's health and well-being does becomes a priority as you get older.

Aristotleded24

Michael Moriarity wrote:
radiorahim wrote:

If Scheer and the Tories manage a win, I will 100% blame the arrogant and hypocritical Liberal Party.

Agreed.

Is a Tory win this election cycle even the worst possible outcome? First of all, how do we know that in a minority situation that the Liberals will bend to pressure from the NDP and the Greens, especially after one of those parties has ruled out working with anyone else? You think people are angry at Liberal arrogance now? Imagine how angry they will feel in 2023, a level of anger that will make it almost impossible for people to see anything else. As for Scheer? This will be Scheer's one and only election as Opposition Leader. He is clearly not very bright. Do you want to take the chance on the Conservatives replacing him with a Harper-like figure who is more competent and more adept at capitalizing on the inevitable anger that people will feel towards the Liberals? Why not let Scheer win this time, let people see his incompetence, and let him bear the brunt of voter anger and frustration a few years from now? Did you know that with an NDP government in BC in good shape to be re-elected, and right-wing governments in the 3 Prairie provinces making moves that alienate many people, that will be an excellent opportunity for a political realignment that could cost the federal Conservatives dearly in Western Canada? Not to mention that Doug Ford is very clearly on his way out. What if it is just a small majority that can easily be lost with a couple of by-elections?

We are not Liberals. We are not Conservatives. We believe that we can offer people something that neither of these parties do. Let's offer it and make our case.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

The politics of waiting it out have never worked for me. It's like sacrifincing a great deal for those most impacted by Conservative politics for some 4 years hoping for a change. And facts are that undoing damage made is far more difficult than imagined. For example, once MTS was privatized, there was no way for any subsequent government, NDP in particular, to undo that privatiztion.

Aristotleded24

In any case, these photos are unearthed. We know that it was racist and offensive, and that Trudeau is not the progressive champion of minority rights he has claimed to be. What worries me is that the media is going to continue to run with this story. Meanwhile, we won't be talking about the large numbers of people on Winnipeg streets begging for cash (many of them Indigenous). We won't be talking about the meth crisis that has gripped the city (thank you Elizabeth May). We won't be talking about the climate crisis, which just saw flash flooding here in southern Manitoba after bone-dry weather which has reduced lake levels in Lake Winnipeg the past 2 summers and is threatening farmres livelihoods. We're not talking about blatant resource grabs that are happening in First Nations communities, or the levels that the resource developers want our law enforcement to go to to track dissidents. We're not talking about new Canadians whose job prospects are limited due to the process it takes to become either a cititzen or permanent resident. So yes, Trudeau is unfit to govern, and I'm doing what I can to defeat my Liberal MP. But instead of falling for the media trap of running with a story and giving them the attention and reaction they want, can we start talking about actual issues that are affecting people (many of them newcomers and Frist Nations) right now in the present?

bekayne

Aristotleded24 wrote:

right-wing governments in the 3 Prairie provinces making moves that alienate many people

They seem to getting more and more popular in Saskatchewan.

jerrym

Ken Burch wrote:

How likely is it that Trudeau's turban incident might shame those voters.... 

 

...especially those in Quebec, who were refusing to vote NDP over Singh's turban and beard into letting go of that particular stupidity?

On CBC News a right-wing Quebec City talk show host said that among his callers this is the most popular Trudeau has ever been because Francophones see themselves as a minority in Canada and don't want multicultural values imposed on them by other minorities or white Anglophones. I would not be surprised if there is some exaggeration in the extent of what the white Francophone opinion is on this issue, but it would not surprise me this anxiety helps amplify the ample support already existing in white Anglophone Canada on this racial and religious issue, helping explain the greater level of support for Bill 21 in Quebec than in the rest of Canada.  

Having an Asian wife and children of mixed heritage, this gives me no pleasure.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

There is a high probablity of teachers strikes breaking out within weeks in Ontario.    Unlike in previous years where the provincial government attempted (with some limited success) in turning parents against teachers, that just is not going to happen this time.    Teachers have developed strong relationships with parents, and the high school kids are as politicized as I've ever seen them in my life...between education cutbacks and the climate strikes.

Unlesss he can pull a rabbit out of a hat, Doug Ford is a one term premier.    That's why Scheer and Ford are staying as far apart from each other as possible.    But, it isn't working.

I do not see many Tory seats happening in Ontario.   Scheer is pretty much "stopped" already at the Ontario/Manitoba provincial border.

As for Justin Trudeau, I'm not going to leave the "blackface/brownface" issue alone.   It's symbolic of the cynical mocking nature of this government towards Indigenous people in particular, and all other traditionally marginalized groups in our society.

The dealings of this government over health services for victims of mercury poisioning at Grassy Narrows is an outrageous crime.

And as I get ready to head out to the Climate Strike rally in Toronto in a couple of hours, I hope everyone keeps in mind that:

Justin Trudeau

Bought

A

Pipeline