How the NDP frustrates me

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pegasus

writer wrote:

Are you experienced?

No. That was why I made all kinds of mistakes this time around.

Unionist

Papal Bull wrote:

To defend Pegasus:

 

I have been associated with NDP parties and have gone to an NDP party or two. I know that I am using a different meaning of 'party'...but my point stands.

Where was that, PB? In the United USA of America?

 

Uncle John

True you don't HAVE to live in the riding you want to run in, but it helps greatly.

Otherwise they accuse you of being a parachute candidate, and they will nail you for that in all-candidates meetings and in the local press. It is something that people talk about way too much, I admit, but they do.

I have seen that repeatedly. In surge events such as election 2011, it does not matter that much, but next time around the NDP candidates in Quebec are going to be under increased scrutiny.

As far as not having a chance, my grampa always used to say "Hope for the best, expect the worst, and get something in between..." You will build your constituency one person at a time.

Be a good technocrat and try to help people out with their problems, no matter what the ideology is. And open up your possibilities. You also have Quebec Solidaire (or the PQ) and opportunities on the local council level.

And in this game (as in many others), the more you try, the more chance you have at succeeding. Do not give up.

All the best, and may your Goddess go with you!

Unionist

pegasus wrote:
I don't care if I win or lose. I just want to go through the experience.

What next? Sex without procreation!!??

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Sorry for the further drift. Blame Unionist for mentioning sex.

Papal Bull wrote:
 I have been associated with NDP parties and have gone to an NDP party or two. I know that I am using a different meaning of 'party'...but my point stands.

Papal Bull might be referring to this old canard (that I found here):

Quote:
 Notwithstanding the old saw that one goes to a Conservative convention to get drunk, a Liberal one to get laid and an NDP one to pick up pamphlets

Why anyone would waste good (or bad) alcohol drinking at a Conservative convention is beyond me.

I can't think of anyone I'd want to hook up with at a Liberal convention (even if I was coming from the Conservative one and was already drunk).

~shudders~

And I have my own pamphlets, please take one.

Tongue out

Unionist

Laughing

... and if none of those turn you on, there's another convention just down the bloc.

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

But there's only a few people there. And are they..... merging.... ?!?!?  Surprised

Laughing

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

I would have deemed you incompetent to run because you could not even figure out that you cannot represent yourself to the public as a potential candidate for the NDP or any other party without being nominated by the party first.  

If you told people you were an NDP candidate you lied to them because its my party too and no one gave you permission to make such a claim. I can imagine the confusion of two or three people running around with Elections Canada nomination papers and telling people they are going to run for the NDP.  I don't care about your resume, your actions in this matter speaks to your ability to understand policy and procedure.

If you told them you were an independent then you were trying to use their signatures under false pretences.  Either way you just didn't get it and that would not bode well for your committee work as an MP.

babbler 8

Don't feed the trolls... I think this is a prime example of the kind of dirty tricks we'll see over the next 4 years.

 

That said, if you want a nomination sign up members and join the riding association and win the nomination meeting. That's how the party democracy works. You could even run against a sitting MP for their nomination, but I would not suggest it unless they are really unpopular.

Polunatic2

Funny but that's not how it worked in my riding where a good candidate was told that he could not even seek the nomination because he was vetoed by the national office. The members of the local riding association did not have a say in the matter. 

MegB

Unionist wrote:

Papal Bull wrote:

To defend Pegasus:

 

I have been associated with NDP parties and have gone to an NDP party or two. I know that I am using a different meaning of 'party'...but my point stands.

Where was that, PB? In the United USA of America?

 

You guys are funny.

ReeferMadness

Welcome to Rabble, Pegasus.  It's too bad that your introduction consisted largely of people lining up to call you a liar and a troll.  Their evidence against you (referring to the NDP Party) is flimsy and clearly the response is related to the fact that you are offering negative commentary on the NDP>  If you had come with the exact same story but a different party, that wouldn't have happened.   I hope you stick around, though.

Rebecca West is right.  Brosseau's occupation is irrelevant as is her age and gender.  Even formal education or lack of thereof isn't necessarily indicative of one's knowledge or understanding. 

However, it is quite legitimate to question why the NDP would choose to run a candidate with no obvious political experience, no connection to the riding in question, obviously no intent on even campaigning, and limited ability to communicate with the constituents in their native language.  While people here are assuring us that the NDP has a great process for vetting candidates, that doesn't square up with their selection of Brosseau.  So, while your story sounds a bit odd, I find it less strange than what actually happened in the riding of Berthier-Maskinonge.

 

Ken Burch

And those questions can be asked at the next general election campaign.  It's unconscionable to still be trying to pressure her into giving up her seat, and nothing progressive in any sense could come of a byelection.  Besides, we both know that riding would never swing to the right and elect a Green in her place.

Brousseau's going to be an MP and that's the end of that.

knownothing knownothing's picture

Pegasus: Is it not possible you just ran into some person in an office with a dislike for you or some other local issue? Why should this reflect on the party as a whole? The NDP should allow bottom-up freedoms and it is up to you to break through that at a local level. In my riding there are people in the NDP that I don't get along with or agree with but that is the way it goes. IF you believe in the values of the NDP then you try and hold the party to those ideals. It doesn't just have those ideals magically, they are defended by people who make up the party and understand why they do. There will always be people in the NDP who are attracted to the party for its power and influence, moreso even now, and it will be a challenge to keep it socialist.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Polunatic2 wrote:

Funny but that's not how it worked in my riding where a good candidate was told that he could not even seek the nomination because he was vetoed by the national office. The members of the local riding association did not have a say in the matter. 

What were his politics in the past?  The NDP does a vetting purity process.  If you don't know what the party stands for or you are not willing to state you will unequivocally advocate for the party platform heading into an election you don't get a nomination.  I've seen some dillies try to get nominated in BC so quite frankly your anecdotal story is not worth much.

The NDP at the start of the campaign thought it was building a youth movement in Quebec and after electing a handful of MP's this time they would have some seasoned young campaigners for the next election.  I am so glad we have youth in our caucus.  Hopefully they will speak on behalf of the people being fucked over the most by our current economic system and that is the young workers.  

ReeferMadness

Ken Burch wrote:

And those questions can be asked at the next general election campaign.  It's unconscionable to still be trying to pressure her into giving up her seat, and nothing progressive in any sense could come of a byelection.  Besides, we both know that riding would never swing to the right and elect a Green in her place.

Brousseau's going to be an MP and that's the end of that.

Nice debating style, Ken - accuse me of something I haven't done. 

I've never suggested that she should give up her seat.  That's between her and her constituents.  Apparently, some of them are suffering from buyers remorse.

Quote:

“Where is she? Why haven't we heard from her?” asked Louiseville resident Claude Berthiaume, 45, one of the rare voters in the riding who has been a long-time NDP supporter.

“I had no idea who she was, where she was from or that she didn't even speak French. I'm beginning to wonder if we've been had.”

Although independents and other parties occasionally elect candidates, the major parties have a stanglehold on our political system.  And I'm getting disturbed about how they are using it.

Quote:

One of the big mysteries surrounding Ms. Brosseau is how she ended up on the ballot.

It turns out she has a friend who works at NDP headquarters in Ottawa. When the election was called and the party needed to find candidates, Ms. Brosseau was asked by her friend, according to Mr. Viau.

Nepotism.  This is a very far cry from the rigorous candidate selection process described by others here.

And there were others.

Quote:

And she wasn’t the only NDP candidate to coast to victory with no campaigning.

Mylène Freeman, a 22-year-old McGill University political science student, was elected in Argenteuil-Papineau Mirabel, northwest of Montreal.

She also was never in the riding, because she didn’t expect to win, preferring instead to help the campaign of NDP Quebec lieutenant Tom Mulcair, who was running in Montreal.

Ms. Freeman did not respond to an interview request but Mr. Viau addressed the fact that she admitted to the newspaper Le Droit that she didn’t grow up in the riding, as claimed in her party biography, but in Stouffville, Ont.

I know that the NDP isn't alone in running placeholder candidates but I'm not familiar with stories from the other parties that are as ludicrous as these.  Are you?

In any case, the system is broken and the parties need to step up and do better.

Ken Burch

If those people won without having to campaign, it's an indictment of how hated the parties and candidates they defeated were.  It doesn't inherently discredit the successful NPD candidates themselves.  The only thing that now matters with them is their performance in the House.

It's time to move on from this.  There's no reason to be challenging the very legitimacy of NDP/NPD candidates anymore, or to be trying to discredit their victories.  They won because the voters in their ridings backed what the NDP/NPD stood for.  Is there a reason you can't just accept that already?

The NDP/NPD is the Official Opposition and achieved that status on the merits.  If there'd been a Green Wave, you'd have seen just as many Green MP's about whom the same issues could be raised.

This doesn'' discredit the NDP/NPD and it's time for you to stop trying to enable a right-wing attack on the only progressive party in Canadian politics.  Only the Liberals and Tories benefit from the refusal of you and people like you to let this go.  What you're doing here can't possibly help the GPC.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

ReeferMadness wrote:

I know that the NDP isn't alone in running placeholder candidates but I'm not familiar with stories from the other parties that are as ludicrous as these.  Are you?

In any case, the system is broken and the parties need to step up and do better.

Not that were elected.  I am sure the NDP has had placeholder candidates like these for many elections.  The Greens have perennial candidates that run in various ridings in the Lower Mainland to carry the flag, with no hope or expectation of being elected.  

The only difference in this election was the people of Quebec said we would rather elect complete unknowns than the tired candidates from the Bloc and Libs.  That is what democratic choice is about.  Especially in the case of the bar manager from Ottawa her story was everywhere in the press and she still got elected.  The voters decided and I hope she does a good job and then I'll let her constituents pass judgement in 4 years.

There is no fix to the placeholder problem.  Being a candidate is a major event that requires commitment and energy and money out of pocket.  In ridings where there is no active riding association with no local campaign ability it is really hard to attract top flight candidates because they are all too busy. It seems to me that someone put her name forward and I will bet my last dollar she told the central campaign she had family commitments and was told that she was a placeholder candidate only.  

ReeferMadness

Northern Shoveler wrote:

ReeferMadness wrote:

I know that the NDP isn't alone in running placeholder candidates but I'm not familiar with stories from the other parties that are as ludicrous as these.  Are you?

In any case, the system is broken and the parties need to step up and do better.

Not that were elected.  I am sure the NDP has had placeholder candidates like these for many elections.  The Greens have perennial candidates that run in various ridings in the Lower Mainland to carry the flag, with no hope or expectation of being elected.  

There's a big difference between having no expectation of victory and having no expectation of campaigning.  My impression of the Green candidates is that they are earnest individuals who campaign hard for very few votes.  Ms. Brosseau campaigned not at all for a whole lot of votes.

Quote:

The only difference in this election was the people of Quebec said we would rather elect complete unknowns than the tired candidates from the Bloc and Libs.  That is what democratic choice is about.  Especially in the case of the bar manager from Ottawa her story was everywhere in the press and she still got elected.  The voters decided and I hope she does a good job and then I'll let her constituents pass judgement in 4 years.

We can agree that this was a case of voters turning away from the Libs and Bloc rather than turning toward the NDP.  But I think the NDP can perhaps work on at least offering candidates who can speak the local language.  This case makes a mockery of our democracy - and it's on shaky enough ground as it is.

Quote:

There is no fix to the placeholder problem.  Being a candidate is a major event that requires commitment and energy and money out of pocket.  In ridings where there is no active riding association with no local campaign ability it is really hard to attract top flight candidates because they are all too busy. It seems to me that someone put her name forward and I will bet my last dollar she told the central campaign she had family commitments and was told that she was a placeholder candidate only.  

I find it really hard to believe that the NDP couldn't find one candidate in the riding who lived there and could speak the language.  If you live in the riding (and speak the language), there are lots of things that you can do that don't require a huge outlay of money.  You can knock on doors.  You can attend candidate debates.  You can speak to the media.  You can use social media to try to reach out to people.  You can do something other than sit 300 kilometers away and ignore the election.

Ken Burch

There's no reason to keep sputtering with rage about Ms. Brousseau's election.  You know you're not going to stop her from being seated.  Can't you just wait to see what kind of an MP she's going to turn out to be?

It's pointless and right-wing for you to STILL be trying to de-legitimize her, or to act as if her result is a singular outrage.  It isn't.  It's just that the voters in her riding had no reason to vote Bloc, Tory, Liberal...or Green.  Those voters actually AGREE with what the NDP's message.  THAT is why she was elected.   Most MP's aren't chosen solely on their personal qualifications or lack of the same.  Few Alberta Tory MP's are, for example.

Give Ms. Brousseau a rest.  She isn't an issue any longer and you're making yourself look incredibly childish by obsessing on her.

ReeferMadness

Ken Burch wrote:

If those people won without having to campaign, it's an indictment of how hated the parties and candidates they defeated were.  It doesn't inherently discredit the successful NPD candidates themselves.  The only thing that now matters with them is their performance in the House.

I don't agree.  If parties are choosing candidates who have no intent of campaigning and who can't speak to the constituents, I think that matters.

Quote:
The NDP/NPD is the Official Opposition and achieved that status on the merits.  If there'd been a Green Wave, you'd have seen just as many Green MP's about whom the same issues could be raised.

Really.  Defend that statement.  Name some Green candidates who never visited the riding, didn't campaign and can't speak the language spoken in the riding.  Go ahead.

Quote:
This doesn'' discredit the NDP/NPD and it's time for you to stop trying to enable a right-wing attack on the only progressive party in Canadian politics.  Only the Liberals and Tories benefit from the refusal of you and people like you to let this go.  What you're doing here can't possibly help the GPC.

Help the Green Party?  Don't make me laugh.  You assume that like you I'm only interested in a party.

You know, I didn't start any of the Brosseau threads.  I'm responding to posts by hyper-partisan NDPers who claim their party is being victimized.  I'm simply pointing out that the NDP is not without blame here.  You want me to let it go?  Stop defending the indefensible.  You might even acknowledge that this is not the NDP's finest hour and perhaps hope with me that there will be a bit more due diligence paid to the candidate selection in the future.

Furthermore, I'd like to respond to your "only progressive party" comment.  There is a whole bunch of post-election commentary on babble about how the NDP is now going to permanently assume the role of opposition and one day take over as government.  If there is any chance of that happening, the NDP is going to have to broaden its base and reach out to Liberal and Green supporters.  You and your hyper-partisan cohorts aren't going to do that by continuing to demonize those parties. 

If your goal in life is the aggrandizement of the NDP, carry on.  If your goal in life is to use the NDP as a vehicle to improve the lot of Canadians, then you need to mature as an organization.  Lose the rhetoric, learn to talk to people who don't see things exactly as you do and above all, learn to accept that your party makes mistakes.

Uncle John

I am not known as an NDP supporter but I am getting angry about the treatment of Brossard. Leave her alone and let her do her job.

MegB

Regardless of whether you support the NDP or not, the attacks and media circus created around this woman (and her name is Ruth Ellen Brosseau, not Brouseau, not Brossard, etc.) are offensive in ways that I'm so very tired of explaining.

 

Fidel

I for one am happy for Ruth Ellen Brosseau. She's young and I think representative of very many women in Canada. There have been too many white males in the halls of power for far too long and not very reflective of who Canadians really are. This new MP will be an inspiration for more Canadian women to participate in democracy where legislations and regulations have been created by males and affecting the lives of women and their children for a bit too long imo. This is what democracy looks like.

Roscoe

Fidel wrote:

I for one am happy for Ruth Ellen Brosseau. She's young and I think representative of very many women in Canada. There have been too many white males in the halls of power for far too long and not very reflective of who Canadians really are. This is what democracy looks like.

Absolutely. Canadians wanted change and Quebec gave it to them. I think it fascinating that Quebeckers would poke a stick inthe eye of the established parties by voting for NDP placeholders who had no inkling of success. Barmaids, bicycle couriers, students, skateboard instructors - whatever - it is asolutely democracy in action. Who is to say that Ottawa and its staid institutions will not be turned upside down by MPs with a very different attitude to the conventions that the 'old white dudes' take as gospel.

Its a hoot! Jack layton will have a full plate to be sure but, he may be prepared to handle it well.

ReeferMadness

Fidel wrote:

I for one am happy for Ruth Ellen Brosseau. She's young and I think representative of very many women in Canada. There have been too many white males in the halls of power for far too long and not very reflective of who Canadians really are. This new MP will be an inspiration for more Canadian women to participate in democracy where legislations and regulations have been created by males and affecting the lives of women and their children for a bit too long imo. This is what democracy looks like.

Are you telling me that the NDP couldn't find a woman within the riding who could speak French and who was actually prepared to campaign?  Or are you suggesting that democracy is better when candidates don't campaign?

janfromthebruce

Get to know your MPs, NDP edition

 

I must say the new progressive MPs are so impressive - look at that bench strength! They appear alot more impressive than the 51 Conservatives elected in Alberta!

Ken Burch

Alberta elected FIFTY-ONE Conservatives? 

Ken Burch

ReeferMadness wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

If those people won without having to campaign, it's an indictment of how hated the parties and candidates they defeated were.  It doesn't inherently discredit the successful NPD candidates themselves.  The only thing that now matters with them is their performance in the House.

I don't agree.  If parties are choosing candidates who have no intent of campaigning and who can't speak to the constituents, I think that matters.

Quote:
The NDP/NPD is the Official Opposition and achieved that status on the merits.  If there'd been a Green Wave, you'd have seen just as many Green MP's about whom the same issues could be raised.

Really.  Defend that statement.  Name some Green candidates who never visited the riding, didn't campaign and can't speak the language spoken in the riding.  Go ahead.

Quote:
This doesn'' discredit the NDP/NPD and it's time for you to stop trying to enable a right-wing attack on the only progressive party in Canadian politics.  Only the Liberals and Tories benefit from the refusal of you and people like you to let this go.  What you're doing here can't possibly help the GPC.

Help the Green Party?  Don't make me laugh.  You assume that like you I'm only interested in a party.

You know, I didn't start any of the Brosseau threads.  I'm responding to posts by hyper-partisan NDPers who claim their party is being victimized.  I'm simply pointing out that the NDP is not without blame here.  You want me to let it go?  Stop defending the indefensible.  You might even acknowledge that this is not the NDP's finest hour and perhaps hope with me that there will be a bit more due diligence paid to the candidate selection in the future.

Furthermore, I'd like to respond to your "only progressive party" comment.  There is a whole bunch of post-election commentary on babble about how the NDP is now going to permanently assume the role of opposition and one day take over as government.  If there is any chance of that happening, the NDP is going to have to broaden its base and reach out to Liberal and Green supporters.  You and your hyper-partisan cohorts aren't going to do that by continuing to demonize those parties. 

If your goal in life is the aggrandizement of the NDP, carry on.  If your goal in life is to use the NDP as a vehicle to improve the lot of Canadians, then you need to mature as an organization.  Lose the rhetoric, learn to talk to people who don't see things exactly as you do and above all, learn to accept that your party makes mistakes.

1) It's too late to try to disqualify any MP's elected this year.  Agreed? 

2) I don't actually know who all the GPC candidates were, so it's impossible for me to respond to that statement.

3) What do you mean "stop defending the indefensible"? It's not indefinsible that Ms. Brosseau was a candidate and it's not indefensible to argue that it's too late to try to make her relinquish her seat or renounce her victory.  Such a demand would never be made of a male candidate or a middle-class or upper-class candidate who was elected under the same circumstances.  And it would never be made of a successful Green Party candidate no matter what.

4) My goal isn't the aggrandizement of the NDP.  In this situation, my goal is to stop unjust attacks against a working-class woman(in a riding where all the other candidates were middle class or upper middle-class moneygrubbers with no interest in helping working people or the poor)whose only crime was winning a seat in parliament.  The assault on Ms. Brosseau's political legitimacy is based solely on the fact that she was a working-class woman who dared to win a seat in the House of Millionaires.  Since there are no working-class or poor GPC candidates, and none who've ever known what it is to have to struggle economically at all, you can't relate to that.

Can you just accept that Ms. Brosseau is going to be the MP for her riding and that, until the next election, that's the end of it?

It's not like you can actually throw out someone's victory just because they didn't campaign in a riding.  That's not grounds for disqualification and you know it.

Just leave Ms. Brosseau alone.  She doesn't deserve this and it wasn't evil that she won the election.

Fidel

ReeferMadness wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I for one am happy for Ruth Ellen Brosseau. She's young and I think representative of very many women in Canada. There have been too many white males in the halls of power for far too long and not very reflective of who Canadians really are. This new MP will be an inspiration for more Canadian women to participate in democracy where legislations and regulations have been created by males and affecting the lives of women and their children for a bit too long imo. This is what democracy looks like.

Are you telling me that the NDP couldn't find a woman within the riding who could speak French and who was actually prepared to campaign?  Or are you suggesting that democracy is better when candidates don't campaign?

One of the flaws inherent to our 19th century electoral system invented before electricity is that it tends to encourage election of white males by false majorities. And parties can't really be blamed a lot for running candidates with resumes a mile long as standing the best chance of winning some phony majority of the votes in a particular riding. They may not be the best choices and perhaps not willing to work very hard once elected, but hey, they are typically white and male and look a lot like the 36 or 40% of voters punching their tickets.

If we had a fair proportional system, women on party or regional lists should stand a better chance of being elected than the white male-friendly first past the post system tends to produce. I like the idea of drop-in candidates if only until such a time when the pro democracy movement wins fair voting for Canadians. I think Canadians vote for the party and not the individual anyway, or at least most of the time.

Roscoe

Rebecca West wrote:

Regardless of whether you support the NDP or not, the attacks and media circus created around this woman (and her name is Ruth Ellen Brosseau, not Brouseau, not Brossard, etc.) are offensive in ways that I'm so very tired of explaining.

 

The media circus misses the point that Mlle Brosseau, in spite of her lack of French and visitation to the riding during the campagn is the chosen representative for her riding. That the voters would prefer a candidate who chose a Vegas vacation over riding grip-n-greets shows their utter contempt for the old line parties. C'est la vie.

I think that Mlle Brosseau will handle herself just fine. She may encourage other women to withstand the onslaught of circus music and persevere over the 'old white dudes'.

Paddle faster.... I hear banjos! lol.

Fidel

Not many people made a big fuss over Preston Manning being unilingual. I don't think he even tried to learn a bit of French, and he was leader of the opposition then.

ReeferMadness

Ken Burch wrote:

ReeferMadness wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

If those people won without having to campaign, it's an indictment of how hated the parties and candidates they defeated were.  It doesn't inherently discredit the successful NPD candidates themselves.  The only thing that now matters with them is their performance in the House.

I don't agree.  If parties are choosing candidates who have no intent of campaigning and who can't speak to the constituents, I think that matters.

Quote:
The NDP/NPD is the Official Opposition and achieved that status on the merits.  If there'd been a Green Wave, you'd have seen just as many Green MP's about whom the same issues could be raised.

Really.  Defend that statement.  Name some Green candidates who never visited the riding, didn't campaign and can't speak the language spoken in the riding.  Go ahead.

Quote:
This doesn'' discredit the NDP/NPD and it's time for you to stop trying to enable a right-wing attack on the only progressive party in Canadian politics.  Only the Liberals and Tories benefit from the refusal of you and people like you to let this go.  What you're doing here can't possibly help the GPC.

Help the Green Party?  Don't make me laugh.  You assume that like you I'm only interested in a party.

You know, I didn't start any of the Brosseau threads.  I'm responding to posts by hyper-partisan NDPers who claim their party is being victimized.  I'm simply pointing out that the NDP is not without blame here.  You want me to let it go?  Stop defending the indefensible.  You might even acknowledge that this is not the NDP's finest hour and perhaps hope with me that there will be a bit more due diligence paid to the candidate selection in the future.

Furthermore, I'd like to respond to your "only progressive party" comment.  There is a whole bunch of post-election commentary on babble about how the NDP is now going to permanently assume the role of opposition and one day take over as government.  If there is any chance of that happening, the NDP is going to have to broaden its base and reach out to Liberal and Green supporters.  You and your hyper-partisan cohorts aren't going to do that by continuing to demonize those parties. 

If your goal in life is the aggrandizement of the NDP, carry on.  If your goal in life is to use the NDP as a vehicle to improve the lot of Canadians, then you need to mature as an organization.  Lose the rhetoric, learn to talk to people who don't see things exactly as you do and above all, learn to accept that your party makes mistakes.

1) It's too late to try to disqualify any MP's elected this year.  Agreed? 

2) I don't actually know who all the GPC candidates were, so it's impossible for me to respond to that statement.

3) What do you mean "stop defending the indefensible"? It's not indefinsible that Ms. Brosseau was a candidate and it's not indefensible to argue that it's too late to try to make her relinquish her seat or renounce her victory.  Such a demand would never be made of a male candidate or a middle-class or upper-class candidate who was elected under the same circumstances.  And it would never be made of a successful Green Party candidate no matter what.

4) My goal isn't the aggrandizement of the NDP.  In this situation, my goal is to stop unjust attacks against a working-class woman(in a riding where all the other candidates were middle class or upper middle-class moneygrubbers with no interest in helping working people or the poor)whose only crime was winning a seat in parliament.  The assault on Ms. Brosseau's political legitimacy is based solely on the fact that she was a working-class woman who dared to win a seat in the House of Millionaires.  Since there are no working-class or poor GPC candidates, and none who've ever known what it is to have to struggle economically at all, you can't relate to that.

Can you just accept that Ms. Brosseau is going to be the MP for her riding and that, until the next election, that's the end of it?

It's not like you can actually throw out someone's victory just because they didn't campaign in a riding.  That's not grounds for disqualification and you know it.

Just leave Ms. Brosseau alone.  She doesn't deserve this and it wasn't evil that she won the election.

You claim that you'd like the matter to drop but you keep on responding.  Amazing.  Of course, you don't debate honestly.  You imply that I've said things that I haven't instead of addressing the issues I've raised. 

First off, I've never suggested that Ms Brousseau be disqualified or abandon her seat.  As I said earlier, that's between her and her constituents. 

I have said (repeatedly) that it's not good to have a candidate who isn't prepared to campaign and can't converse with the local population.  The constituents had no way of knowing the views of this candidate.  There's something very wrong with a candidate being chosen just because she's a friend of someone in NDP HQ.  That's what's indefensible, Ken. It's bad for democracy.  It looks bad for the NDP. Hopefully, somewhere in NDP HQ, somebody is taking notice of this and ensuring that in the future, candidates are actually going to campaign.

If I lived in the riding and had voted for a candidate who had never been their and couldn't even speak my language, I'd feel kind of embarrassed.  I'd also be unhappy with the party that did that to me.

Finally, with respect to Brosseau herself:  I don't envy her for the negative media attention but anyone in politics should understand that controversy is going to attact attention.  And I think that an MP who clearly had no intention of winning and can't converse with her constituents is a fair subject for comment.  So, she's brought this on herself and will have to deal with it.

The rest of your claptrap about defending a working class woman against the rich is classic bafflegab.  Confuse the issue to avoid honest debate.  Is that the best you can do?

Policywonk

Ken Burch wrote:

Alberta elected FIFTY-ONE Conservatives? 

I think that's the total for the Prairies. Which includes a lot of dead wood of course.

ReeferMadness

Fidel wrote:

ReeferMadness wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I for one am happy for Ruth Ellen Brosseau. She's young and I think representative of very many women in Canada. There have been too many white males in the halls of power for far too long and not very reflective of who Canadians really are. This new MP will be an inspiration for more Canadian women to participate in democracy where legislations and regulations have been created by males and affecting the lives of women and their children for a bit too long imo. This is what democracy looks like.

Are you telling me that the NDP couldn't find a woman within the riding who could speak French and who was actually prepared to campaign?  Or are you suggesting that democracy is better when candidates don't campaign?

One of the flaws inherent to our 19th century electoral system invented before electricity is that it tends to encourage election of white males by false majorities. And parties can't really be blamed a lot for running candidates with resumes a mile long as standing the best chance of winning some phony majority of the votes in a particular riding. They may not be the best choices and perhaps not willing to work very hard once elected, but hey, they are typically white and male and look a lot like the 36 or 40% of voters punching their tickets.

If we had a fair proportional system, women on party or regional lists should stand a better chance of being elected than the white male-friendly first past the post system tends to produce. I like the idea of drop-in candidates if only until such a time when the pro democracy movement wins fair voting for Canadians. I think Canadians vote for the party and not the individual anyway, or at least most of the time.

Fidel, that's a very educational response but you've avoided the question.  Could the NDP really have not located a more suitable candidate?   I've noticed that the Green Party, with only a fraction of the resources of the NDP, managed to come up with a candidate who seems to be from the community (or close to it - I don't know the geography there) and actually has a website in French.

She's a nursing student but according to Ken, she must be a rich old white guy in disguise.

Policywonk

ReeferMadness wrote:

I have said (repeatedly) that it's not good to have a candidate who isn't prepared to campaign and can't converse with the local population.  The constituents had no way of knowing the views of this candidate.  There's something very wrong with a candidate being chosen just because she's a friend of someone in NDP HQ.  That's what's indefensible, Ken. It's bad for democracy.  It looks bad for the NDP. Hopefully, somewhere in NDP HQ, somebody is taking notice of this and ensuring that in the future, candidates are actually going to campaign.

If I lived in the riding and had voted for a candidate who had never been their and couldn't even speak my language, I'd feel kind of embarrassed.  I'd also be unhappy with the party that did that to me.

What's indefensible is you complaining about the democratic choice of the people in the riding. If they were embarrassed about her they didn't show it on election day. And apparently she can understand French reasonably well even if her speech is rather rusty (according to reports of her first post-election interview). She was born in Montreal but her family moved to Kingston where she was in French immersion schools. She should pick up talking French comfortably fairly easily, unlike most Conservative MPs.

Ken Burch

So that SHOULD put the language issue to rest in Ms. Brosseau's case.

ReeferMadness

No, I think it's indefensible that the NDP couldn't be bothered to find a better candidate for this consituency.  There was no opportunity for anyone in the riding to have any say in their NDP candidate.  She was appointed by a friend in NDP Central. 

Are you saying it's good for NDP HQ to appoint candidates without consulting anyone in the riding?  Particularly ones who can't speak the language?

The people chose the NDP out of frustration.  They couldn't choose this candidate - not in any meaningful sense of the word; they had no way of knowing who this candidate was.

ReeferMadness

Ken Burch wrote:

So that SHOULD put the language issue to rest in Ms. Brosseau's case.

It might.  But it doesn't do anything to put to rest serious concerns about how parties (and in particular the NDP) choose candidates.  tThe major parties have a stranglehold on the electoral process.  There should be a responsibility about how they use it.

thorin_bane

Reefer you are getting mighty worked up on an issue that you should be upset with only the voters in her riding. Our local green candidates have been from other areas, and most of the time are paper candidates. Not a single sign this time around. The whole green strategy was  Emay election and nothing more. Sometimes you can't find a candidate or no one asked. Most people felt the NDP had NO ground game at all so it should come as no surprise that the riding didn't have people stepping forward with 1,000 bucks in hand for what was presumed to be a sure defeat when the writ was dropped.

As it is all the pundits such as teh At Issue Panel(sic) are flaberghasted, because up to the week before they were still claiming the NDP would likely only finish with MAYBE 50 seats total if they gained at all.

wage zombie

ReeferMadness wrote:

I have said (repeatedly) that it's not good to have a candidate who isn't prepared to campaign and can't converse with the local population.

Well DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Yes, candidates should be prepared to campaign.  You might want to write a book based on all high quality election wisdom you're dropping.

Quote:

No, I think it's indefensible that the NDP couldn't be bothered to find a better candidate for this consituency.

You think "the NDP" couldn't be bothered?  That's what you think?  Why don't you run a national election campaign and then come back and tell us how easy it is to find candidates across the country.

When you say "the NDP", in cases like this, who are you talking about exactly?

Fidel

ReeferMadness wrote:

Fidel wrote:

ReeferMadness wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I for one am happy for Ruth Ellen Brosseau. She's young and I think representative of very many women in Canada. There have been too many white males in the halls of power for far too long and not very reflective of who Canadians really are. This new MP will be an inspiration for more Canadian women to participate in democracy where legislations and regulations have been created by males and affecting the lives of women and their children for a bit too long imo. This is what democracy looks like.

Are you telling me that the NDP couldn't find a woman within the riding who could speak French and who was actually prepared to campaign?  Or are you suggesting that democracy is better when candidates don't campaign?

One of the flaws inherent to our 19th century electoral system invented before electricity is that it tends to encourage election of white males by false majorities. And parties can't really be blamed a lot for running candidates with resumes a mile long as standing the best chance of winning some phony majority of the votes in a particular riding. They may not be the best choices and perhaps not willing to work very hard once elected, but hey, they are typically white and male and look a lot like the 36 or 40% of voters punching their tickets.

If we had a fair proportional system, women on party or regional lists should stand a better chance of being elected than the white male-friendly first past the post system tends to produce. I like the idea of drop-in candidates if only until such a time when the pro democracy movement wins fair voting for Canadians. I think Canadians vote for the party and not the individual anyway, or at least most of the time.

Fidel, that's a very educational response but you've avoided the question.  Could the NDP really have not located a more suitable candidate?   I've noticed that the Green Party, with only a fraction of the resources of the NDP, managed to come up with a candidate who seems to be from the community (or close to it - I don't know the geography there) and actually has a website in French.

She's a nursing student but according to Ken, she must be a rich old white guy in disguise.

Do you really think 37 days is enough time for an election campaign? How many times has Steve "I am a stooge, a vicious toadie, and a liar, too" Harper lied about fixed election dates? How many times did he say that he would put an end to snap election calls for short-term political gain?

The next one is scheduled for Oct. 19, 2015. Mark your calendar - and then throw it away. You were lied to by a lying-liar with 24% of the eligible vote under him. OF COURSE he's going to lie to you about these things. It's what he does. Get ready for a constant stream of lies and horse shit flowing from the horse's mouth for the next four years.

adma

Ken Burch wrote:
Just leave Ms. Brosseau alone.  She doesn't deserve this and it wasn't evil that she won the election.

Anyone else got to thinking of this?

(sorry)

ReeferMadness

wage zombie wrote:

ReeferMadness wrote:

I have said (repeatedly) that it's not good to have a candidate who isn't prepared to campaign and can't converse with the local population.

Well DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Yes, candidates should be prepared to campaign.  You might want to write a book based on all high quality election wisdom you're dropping.

Congrats, Zombie.  You are the first person here to actually address an issue that I've made.  Yes, it's a pretty obvious point, isn't?  Yet your compatriots have repeatedly avoided it, preferring instead to attack me personally with accusations of being misogynist, anti-working class, neoliberal and some other stuff.

Quote:

You think "the NDP" couldn't be bothered?  That's what you think?  Why don't you run a national election campaign and then come back and tell us how easy it is to find candidates across the country.

When you say "the NDP", in cases like this, who are you talking about exactly?

Well, as I said, the Greens managed to find a candidate who seems to live in or near the riding and who seems to speak French.  That doesn't seem like a very high bar.  I should also point out that anyone who's been following my comments will see that they've been directed to all the major parties.

When I say the NDP, I'm clearly not talking about the supporters or membership at large.  I'm talking about the HO staff who made the appointment and anyone involved in approving it.

I'd also add that if the reaction of NDPers on this site is any indication, the party has real trouble admitting mistakes.  And if you can't admit mistakes, you'll never learn from them.  The whole narrative of Brosseau as the hapless victim of misogyny or working class discrimination is beyond ridiculous.  If she could speak the language and invested even some minimal effort into a campaign, she wouldn't be under the same media focus.  The fact is that with this candidate, there isn't even a reasonable pretense that she was a serious candidate.  The other narrative that has Brosseau as a working class hero is just as ridiculous.  From all of the accounts published, she did nothing to earn the victory - she was just in the right place at the right time.  Maybe she turns out to be a star MP and she becomes a working class hero - who knows.

People here should take a lesson from Jack.  He's defending his candidates (to do otherwise would be to throw them under a bus) but he's not running around accusing the rest of the world of misogyny or other bias.

The point is that neither the appointment of this candidate nor the gross overreaction to the media scrutiny makes the party look good.   Ride it out and learn from your mistakes.

 

 

ReeferMadness

thorin_bane wrote:

Reefer you are getting mighty worked up on an issue that you should be upset with only the voters in her riding. Our local green candidates have been from other areas, and most of the time are paper candidates. Not a single sign this time around. The whole green strategy was  Emay election and nothing more. Sometimes you can't find a candidate or no one asked. Most people felt the NDP had NO ground game at all so it should come as no surprise that the riding didn't have people stepping forward with 1,000 bucks in hand for what was presumed to be a sure defeat when the writ was dropped.

As it is all the pundits such as teh At Issue Panel(sic) are flaberghasted, because up to the week before they were still claiming the NDP would likely only finish with MAYBE 50 seats total if they gained at all.

Thorin, first of all, thank you for at least addressing the issue I've raised without attacking me personally or questioning my motives.  That's become very refreshing.

I can't comment on your experience with Green candidates but (as I've mentioned earlier) my experience is that they are earnest, serious people who work hard with little expectations in terms of votes.  Our Green candidate was a very articulate guy who (I thought) did very well at the candidate debate.  And the Greens had a lot less to work with in terms of resources than the NDP.

But in this case, the NDP ran a candidate who not only didn't campaign but, due to the language barrier, couldn't campaign.

ReeferMadness

Fidel wrote:

Do you really think 37 days is enough time for an election campaign? How many times has Steve "I am a stooge, a vicious toadie, and a liar, too" Harper lied about fixed election dates? How many times did he say that he would put an end to snap election calls for short-term political gain?

The next one is scheduled for Oct. 19, 2015. Mark your calendar - and then throw it away. You were lied to by a lying-liar with 24% of the eligible vote under him. OF COURSE he's going to lie to you about these things. It's what he does. Get ready for a constant stream of lies and horse shit flowing from the horse's mouth for the next four years.

Aw, c'mon Fidel.  Now you're blaming Harper?  The devil made you do it??  Laughing  Look, repeat after me:

"Reefer, you're right.  We really should have chosen a more appropriate candidate, preferably someone in the riding and definitely someone who can speak the language.  I'm sure whoever made this decision will get some better instruction.  And next time we'll have a much stronger Quebec organization because of our electoral success."

Just try it.  You'll feel better.

 

Doug

Rebecca West wrote:

Welcome to babble Pegasus.  As a new member, you should know that referring to the new MP for Berthier--Maskinongé as a "barmaid" is sexist and classist and, as such, violates the babble policy you agreed to follow when you became a member.

 

It's also inaccurate since she's a manager at that bar. I wouldn't sneer at a bar manager, it can be a difficult job.

Doug

ReeferMadness wrote:

I know that the NDP isn't alone in running placeholder candidates but I'm not familiar with stories from the other parties that are as ludicrous as these.  Are you?

In any case, the system is broken and the parties need to step up and do better.

 

I am. Have a look at the new MP for Lethbridge.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Polunatic2 wrote:

Funny but that's not how it worked in my riding where a good candidate was told that he could not even seek the nomination because he was vetoed by the national office. The members of the local riding association did not have a say in the matter. 

 

Without knowing the details, I obviously can't speak to the particular case.  However, the party does have a vetting process in place which all potential candidates must go through before they are cleared to seek a nomination.  Having seen the form once (I was working with an unsuccessful nomination candidate) the focus is on weeding out candidates whose past scandals might bring the party into disrepute.  The process is not designed to judge if a person would be a good candidate, or a good candidate for the proposed constituency.

While the party would not necessarily, for example, rule out a candidate with a criminal record, there would certainly be more questions.  At the very least, it would ensure that the party was not caught flatfooted if or when a story were to come out - say as with Robert Chisolm's old DUI during the 1998 Nova Scotia election.

I don't know what your "good candidate" may have included on his form that moved the party to reject him as a candidate, but it could be something like a past criminal record, past controversial comments or activities not in keeping with NDP principles.  You'll recall the loss of several candidates in the 08 election due to past scandalous (and usually stupid) behaviour.

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