Liberals look to overturn results in Berthier-Maskinongé

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SRB

Unfortunately, according to cyberpresse, the three defeated candidates are still pursuing this despite the statement from Elections Canada yesterday.  Apparently there are three separate lawyers who are combing through the list for invalid signatures and they have now dug up four people who claim they have no memory of signing Ms. Brousseau's nomination papers.  IF they find enough mistakes or irregularities, there could still be a court challenge. They are certainly looking, so this may not be over.

edmundoconnor

The defeated candidates have 30 days from the result being validated (May 3rd?) to contest the results of the election. Realistically, if they're going to come up with something, it'll be within the next week or so. The longer it drags on, the more it looks like the other parties are just trying to keep it going to muddy the name of the NDP. I notice from the comments on the CBC article that the other parties are losing whatever support they had. They would be wise to draw this matter to a close quickly.

edmundoconnor

If Brosseau comes out swinging, or looks in any way sympathetic, the defeated parties are going to come off looking like bullies. She should get out to the riding and meet the press post haste, though.

edmundoconnor

Please disregard all previous messages from this account. It was not an official page. It has been seized by the #NDP.

Tweet from 2 hours ago.

Subsequent tweets indicates this is a faker, and the above tweet about the faker being kicked off is fake. This is making my head spin.

josh

Ghislaine wrote:

22,000 people voted and elected Ms. Brosseau and she is now their MP. End of story. They can decide in 2015 whether she deserves to be re-elected. I cannot comprehend where the Libs of Cons think they even a smidgeon of legitimacy in calling for a byelection??

Or the corporate media, in flagging the story.

 

Threads

Honestly, given the recent history of people making spoof Brosseau Twitter accounts, I would assume any accounts on any social-media site purporting to be Brosseau are fake unless they've been previously verified as being Brosseau.

N.R.KISSED

edmundoconnor wrote:

If Brosseau comes out swinging, or looks in any way sympathetic, the defeated parties are going to come off looking like bullies. She should get out to the riding and meet the press post haste, though.

It may serve the purposes of the NDP for her to get out and meet the press but I think a little empathy for the woman's life situation imght be in order. SHe does have serious life demands as a single mother she has been thrust into an exceptionally bizarre situation that naturally she would not have forseen. The transition for anyone going from anonymity to public prominence and facing such an extreme transition would be extremely stressful in itself but that is not all. She is not going out to face a benign and curious press she is going out to face an exceedingly vicious and hostile press that has already been attacking her. If i were her I would be ready to call the whole thing off and throw in the towel. I think it makes sense to allow some of this hostility to dissipate and allow her some time to take in the reality of her situation. People are going to have to get used to these media attacks on the NDP now that they have a highter profile. The NDP always gets attacked when they are in power or close to power. Part of the reason the Cons got their false majority is due to the media constructed image of the Bob Rae government.  People also need to be reminded that the shift to the NDP did not happen because the corporate media suddenly approved and endorsed the NDP(even the support ot the sleazy star has been shown to be completely hollow and self serving), people independently chose the NDP as an alternative.

Has anyone started a facebook page in support of Brosseau? I would but I don't do facebook

N.R.KISSED

remind wrote:

Tried to look for comments on her in the CBC story and could not find them, admittedly I did not look hard only at the one as it pissed me off so much that I refuse to read another CBC story.

This part below is especially bad in respect to the outright classism and sexism that is shown.

Quote:
There is little information in Brosseau's biography on the NDP website, other than her interest in rescuing injured animals, her diploma in advertising from St. Lawrence College, and that she works as an assistant manager at a restaurant.

That restaurant, Oliver's Pub on the campus of Carleton University, is now hiring. A job posting appeared online Thursday for a manager position, and comes with a salary between $38,000 and $53,000.

It's not clear whether that's the job Brosseau is leaving - but the one she's got now on Parliament Hill will give her a $157,000 annual paycheque, plus expenses.

Seriously. In this day and age they wrote that crap that I bolded?!

How many men have gone from a wage of that kind to sitting in parliament? 100's? More? Probably more.

And not a word has been said that I can ever remember about them going from a middle wage job to a sitting MP.

Nor for that matter about any other women who have done so. But yet for some reason it is  terrible to them that that a single mother of 2 now is doing so.

Is it because she worked in a pub and not for some environmental organization, let's say?

Are they casting scorn upon her because she worked in a pub? I think so, given what will be a historical classist and sexist opining by a nationally funded news agency.

Not only are they bregrudging her an elevated income, they are, not so obliquely, trying to disparage her personal integrity and character.

The realities of the neo-liberal job market one would not be able to raise two children on the salary of a non-profit organization. Managing a bar pays better than being a manager in a non-profit.

N.R.KISSED

N.R.KISSED wrote:

 

I think she should be coached to treat the press in the same way you would treat a belligerent drunk(as a good portion of them are): repeat yourself calmly and assertively don't be distracted by their aggressive and insulting demeanor, getting in a fight with them only encourages them to be more belligerent.  Maybe they might feel a little ashamed about their behaviour after they sober up.

 

writer writer's picture
Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Quote:
Has anyone started a facebook page in support of Brosseau?

Why yes they have.

 

remind remind's picture

For further evidence of the classism and sexism in the CBC stories, I put forward this latest compare from another CBC article I found.

Quote:
 But the orange wave of popularity that decimated the other parties in the province swept several newbies to the House of Commons, including three students, a karate instructor and the pub manager.

 

 

Don't imagine the karate instructer would make more than Mlle Brosseau did as pub manager, but yet apparently he is not begrudged his wage increase, nor seat in parliament, as much as the oft repeated  "single mother of 2" is apparently.

remind remind's picture

Tried to look for comments on her in the CBC story and could not find them, admittedly I did not look hard only at the one as it pissed me off so much that I refuse to read another CBC story.

This part below is especially bad in respect to the outright classism and sexism that is shown.

Quote:
There is little information in Brosseau's biography on the NDP website, other than her interest in rescuing injured animals, her diploma in advertising from St. Lawrence College, and that she works as an assistant manager at a restaurant.

That restaurant, Oliver's Pub on the campus of Carleton University, is now hiring. A job posting appeared online Thursday for a manager position, and comes with a salary between $38,000 and $53,000.

It's not clear whether that's the job Brosseau is leaving - but the one she's got now on Parliament Hill will give her a $157,000 annual paycheque, plus expenses.

Seriously. In this day and age they wrote that crap that I bolded?!

How many men have gone from a wage of that kind to sitting in parliament? 100's? More? Probably more.

And not a word has been said that I can ever remember about them going from a middle wage job to a sitting MP.

Nor for that matter about any other women who have done so. But yet for some reason it is  terrible to them that that a single mother of 2 now is doing so.

Is it because she worked in a pub and not for some environmental organization, let's say?

Are they casting scorn upon her because she worked in a pub? I think so, given what will be a historical classist and sexist opining by a nationally funded news agency.

Not only are they begrudging her an elevated income, they are, not so obliquely, trying to disparage her personal integrity and character.

N.R.KISSED

thanks writer and catchfire

Life, the unive...

remind, not to make you more outraged, but compare that to the Conservative who was elected last election in my riding.  When he first ran he was in his 20s and came within 500 votes of winning in 2006.  In 2008 I think he had made 30, but I am not sure, when we won.  He attended some sort of American Christian college on a baseball scholarship or something (that has dropped from his bio) and only ever worked in a very low level payroll clerk job at a local business along with working in the family auction business.  As far as I know he was never even elected to student council.  

Yet -Not. One. Single. Similar. Story -when he was elected.  The double standard is profound.

Policywonk

remind wrote:

N.R.KISSED wrote:

How many men have gone from a wage of that kind to sitting in parliament? 100's? More? Probably more.

And not a word has been said that I can ever remember about them going from a middle wage job to a sitting MP.

Nor for that matter about any other women who have done so. But yet for some reason it is  terrible to them that that a single mother of 2 now is doing so.

Is it because she worked in a pub and not for some environmental organization, let's say?

Are they casting scorn upon her because she worked in a pub? I think so, given what will be a historical classist and sexist opining by a nationally funded news agency.

Not only are they bregrudging her an elevated income, they are, not so obliquely, trying to disparage her personal integrity and character.

The realities of the neo-liberal job market one would not be able to raise two children on the salary of a non-profit organization. Managing a bar pays better than being a manager in a non-profit.

Yes, I agree but yet EMay as a single mother was not heaped with scorn and disapproval for her attempt to become a MP. Nor is she going to be begrudged her wage.

For the rest of you out there who say it is different, it actually is not.

One can find many other reasons to heap scorn and disapproval on May if one is so inclined.

Whether or not the manager of a non-profit is paid more than a pub manager depends on the non-profit, although certainly the vast majority of non-profits in Canada can't afford to pay corporate CEO salaries to their Executive Directors, let alone other staff.

remind remind's picture

N.R.KISSED wrote:
How many men have gone from a wage of that kind to sitting in parliament? 100's? More? Probably more.

And not a word has been said that I can ever remember about them going from a middle wage job to a sitting MP.

Nor for that matter about any other women who have done so. But yet for some reason it is  terrible to them that that a single mother of 2 now is doing so.

Is it because she worked in a pub and not for some environmental organization, let's say?

Are they casting scorn upon her because she worked in a pub? I think so, given what will be a historical classist and sexist opining by a nationally funded news agency.

Not only are they bregrudging her an elevated income, they are, not so obliquely, trying to disparage her personal integrity and character.

Quote:
The realities of the neo-liberal job market one would not be able to raise two children on the salary of a non-profit organization. Managing a bar pays better than being a manager in a non-profit.

Yes, I agree but yet EMay as a single mother was not heaped with scorn and disapproval for her attempt to become a MP. Nor is she going to be begrudged her wage.

For the rest of you out there who say it is different, it actually is not.

remind remind's picture

Life, the universe, everything wrote:
remind, not to make you more outraged, but compare that to the Conservative who was elected last election in my riding.  When he first ran he was in his 20s and came within 500 votes of winning in 2006.  In 2008 I think he had made 30, but I am not sure, when we won.  He attended some sort of American Christian college on a baseball scholarship or something (that has dropped from his bio) and only ever worked in a very low level payroll clerk job at a local business along with working in the family auction business.  As far as I know he was never even elected to student council.  

Yet -Not. One. Single. Similar. Story -when he was elected.  The double standard is profound.

Frankly, I could not get more outraged than I am, however thank you for another good example of their sexism. The CBC should be slapped with a law suit for discrimation in their reporting. 

Policywonk, oh...I agree there are plenty of reasons to heap disapproval and scorn on EMay, however, I am trying to keep a blank page on her former actions now she is actually a BC MP for an area where many of my friends and relatives live.

Will wait to see how she conducts herself and what types of actions she initiates, before I will ever again heap scorn on her. Currently, I commend her for actually getting Lunn out by working so hard in the riding to get it done.

Policywonk

Actually I'm happy that Gary Lunn is out too, and I reserve judgement on May as an MP. I also have friends on Saltspring and have met the NDP candidate, who would have made an excellent addition to Jack's caucus.

Dodger718

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

remind, not to make you more outraged, but compare that to the Conservative who was elected last election in my riding.  When he first ran he was in his 20s and came within 500 votes of winning in 2006.  In 2008 I think he had made 30, but I am not sure, when we won.  He attended some sort of American Christian college on a baseball scholarship or something (that has dropped from his bio) and only ever worked in a very low level payroll clerk job at a local business along with working in the family auction business.  As far as I know he was never even elected to student council.  

If you look at the Tory caucus, off the top of my head Jason Kenney, John Baird, Pierre Polievre, Patrick Brown and Rob Anders were all elected in their mid-late 20s. I know Patrick Brown is a lawyer and I think the others were basically party hacks from the time they finished college to the time they got elected.

Ghislaine

Jean Charest was 26 when he was first elected.

Stockholm

One of the youngest MPs ever was Lorne Nystrom, first elected for the NDP at the age of 21 in 1968 - he was an MP for almost 35 years and ran for (and lost) the NDP leadership three times.

remind remind's picture

Policywonk wrote:
Actually I'm happy that Gary Lunn is out too, and I reserve judgement on May as an MP. I also have friends on Saltspring and have met the NDP candidate, who would have made an excellent addition to Jack's caucus.

 I agree she would have, and perhaps if she is willing in 2015, or sooner if there is a by-election, to run I think we could get a united voice/vote to make it happen.

Dodger718

Stockholm wrote:

One of the youngest MPs ever was Lorne Nystrom, first elected for the NDP at the age of 21 in 1968 - he was an MP for almost 35 years and ran for (and lost) the NDP leadership three times.

Back in the early 1970s, a 30 year old Democrat was elected to the US Senate. He`s done pretty well for himself. His name is Joe Biden.

vermonster

Dodger718 wrote:

Back in the early 1970s, a 30 year old Democrat was elected to the US Senate. He`s done pretty well for himself. His name is Joe Biden.

 

Biden was actually still 29 when he was elected. He turned 30 after the election, but before being sworn in office in January 1973. (In the US, 30 is the minimum age for Senators).

SRB

There could be a court challenge by the Liberals in this and other NDP held ridings in Quebec (pending formal complaints to Elections Canada) due to irregularities in the nomination papers:

http://tinyurl.com/3kc2w3z

Ciabatta2

This is getting embarassing - get it together NDP HQ

janfromthebruce

I joined Kiss

Life, the unive...

What a bunch of whiney crybabies.  My already low esteem for Liberals is plunging fast.

IF and that is a huge IF, there is anything to the claim- then the error was on the part of the DRO for the riding.  If he filled in the top, that was his mistake.  Not the campaign team.  This is such a farce- because it doesn't mean anything.  Can you imagine the shit storm if the NDP or Bloc were doing what the Liberals were doing.  You lost - big time - grow up - suck it up and do something about why your message is not appealing to voters and let's move on to actual important issues - you know like defending the country against the coming attacks against health care, pensions and so on from the Harper government.

Let's start examining all candidates.  I would bet you anything you want we could find something inadvertantly hinky on the nominations papers of every single candidate in the country- and for sure someone would claim I don't remember signing that.

Liberals- always, always, always it is only about them and their entitlements.  Goddes I hate them.

Life, the unive...

Ciabatta2 wrote:

This is getting embarassing - get it together NDP HQ

What's embarrassing - that the Liberals are performing a hatchet job and being sore losers and being aided in it by the media?  I find that embarrassing too.

SRB

Ciabatta2 wrote:

This is getting embarassing - get it together NDP HQ

I'm confused: what is the NDP supposed to do here, other than state that they followed the rules?  Would it be helpful to have the volunteers who canvassed for the signatures speak to the media or something and deny the allegations?

On a separate matter related to this story, does anyone know what are the irregularities that are being alleged in Champlain-St-Maurice riding and (according to defeated Liberal Gaudet) throughout Quebec?

Is this going to turn into a Quebec-wide smear of fraud against NDP volunteers next?

vermonster

SRB wrote:

There could be a court challenge by the Liberals in this and other NDP held ridings in Quebec (pending formal complaints to Elections Canada) due to irregularities in the nomination papers:

http://tinyurl.com/3kc2w3z

 

 

I'm not sure I get why Corderre and the rest of the Liberal crew think that it is a good idea politically to try to overturn clear election results on what amounts to technicalities on a ballot petition. Do they really want to look that petty and indifferent to what the voters just said they wanted?

I understand that they are trying to create a narrative undermining the legitimacy of the NDP gains in Quebec, but it seems incredibly counter-productive to me. If they manage to force by-elections, the voters will be angry about it, the NDP could run stronger focused campaigns to retain the seats if they had to.  How hard would it be to find a stronger NDP candidate in Bethierville or any other riding in Quebec to given the results of May 2?and the Liberals are out of the running in almost all of the seats.

And do they really want to initiate a game of challenging the nominating petitions of duly elected MPs? How certain are they that all of their members did everything exactly right? Will we start having all the parties combing over each other's petitions after the election seeking to disqualify even candidates who won a clear mandate? Do they think the voters will approve of that kind of "gotcha" politics?

If they overplay their hand here, it will create a pretty strong voter backlash against them.

As a side note, at the moment I'd urge the party to think about flooding Quebec - especially ridings like Berthier-Maskinonge -  with speaking tours and media events highlighting a lot of the unheralded new members of the NDP caucus. (Of course after giving them some kind of bootcamp on how to deal with media, key issue talking points, etc). There are a lot of impressive people who got elected, and aggressively introducing them to Quebec voters now is an important part of counter-acting the narrative claiming they are all neophytes unprepared for prime-time.

I could see town halls and issue meetings where 3 or 4 new MPs appear together - matching a labour activist like Patry or Boulerice or Turmel with one of the students, add in some one with governmental experience (the new MP from Montcalm was a local mayor, Boivin and Mulcair have been in Parliament), with one of the folks with a history of issue activism (plenty of environmentalists, health care, etc expertise), an economist like Guy Caron, etc. Lots of diversity to highlight too - a good number of visible minorities, strong female representation, at least one openly gay member, etc.

Such a public roll-out seems to me essential not only to fighting the cheap shots, but also as part of a long term strategy cementing a long term relationship with Quebec voters. That way, these kinds of cheap tricks the Liberals and Conservatives are trying to pull will have less impact on public perceptions. And in the off chance they manage to use the courts to force a by-election somewhere, the public will be more likely to stick with the NDP because they see a party of substance and depth, not the caricature that the other parties and the media are trying to paint right now. 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

It's nice to see that after one of the worst chastisements and denunciations of the Liberal party and their craven, mealy-mouthed politics, the Liberals, justly sobered and humbled, have opted for a new forward-looking and redemptive strategy: gunning for a single mom working-class activist who was duly elected by her constituents.

SRB

vermonster wrote:

Such a public roll-out seems to me essential not only to fighting the cheap shots, but also as part of a long term strategy cementing a long term relationship with Quebec voters. That way, these kinds of cheap tricks the Liberals and Conservatives are trying to pull will have less impact on public perceptions. And in the off chance they manage to use the courts to force a by-election somewhere, the public will be more likely to stick with the NDP because they see a party of substance and depth, not the caricature that the other parties and the media are trying to paint right now. 

That's a good idea.  I hope the NDP realizes that what is being challenged throughout the media in both subtle and direct ways is the fitness of the NDP to be the Opposition.

No doubt this will continue throughout the next 4 years.  Among other things, the NDP needs a really good media strategy. 

However, the NDP is also incredibly busy right now with all of its newly minted MPs. (This no doubt explains the relative silence of the party in the face of all these allegations).  Perhaps they need a separate team just to deal with this sort of thing - to start being more proactive and not just reactive.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Stockholm wrote:

One of the youngest MPs ever was Lorne Nystrom, first elected for the NDP at the age of 21 in 1968 - he was an MP for almost 35 years and ran for (and lost) the NDP leadership three times.

 

22 actually.

As I've noted before, he wasn't old enough to vote in the previous election, and in 1968, he was enumerated in Regina though he was running in Yorkton.  He ended up not voting, and never voted in a federal election until he had been an MP for four years.

Stockholm

Canadian Press is tweeting that Ruth-Ellen Brousseau has spoken:

"In statement from NDP asking for federal help for her flood-ravaged region, she says says people put faith in the NDP and it'll work hard for them. She asks for federal government to move quickly with help re. floods"

Policywonk

SRB wrote:

There could be a court challenge by the Liberals in this and other NDP held ridings in Quebec (pending formal complaints to Elections Canada) due to irregularities in the nomination papers:

http://tinyurl.com/3kc2w3z

There is absolutely no way that 90 out of the 128 signatures could be fraudulent. BTW I believe all of the signatures are supposed to be witnessed, so it is unlike a petition in that regard.

vermonster

Policywonk wrote:

There is absolutely no way that 90 out of the 128 signatures could be fraudulent. BTW I believe all of the signatures are supposed to be witnessed, so it is unlike a petition in that regard.

If I understand the story correctly, they are trying to claim that the NDP canvassers circulated petitions without a candidate's name on them, and then filled in Ruth Ellen Brosseau when they turned them in to the Returning Officer.

I'm not sure how they would prove that, and since Elections Canada accepted the petitions and certified her as a candidate, it seems unlikely tht the courts would now find that it somehow disqualified her candidacy.

 

Winston

Support Ruth against this dispicable onslaught on facebook:

Supporters of Ruth Ellen Brosseau and Other Ordinary Canadian MPs

janfromthebruce

And this isn't a bad supportive article - they got the winds at their backs - youth

 

Porter: The so-called McGill Four NDPers elected in Quebec may well turn out to be fine politicians

janfromthebruce
Policywonk

janfromthebruce wrote:

posted on a Friday night - lol


Liberals, Tories won’t challenge nomination papers in court

Not sure this is conclusive as the Liberals only seem to be falling suit, but I guess they realize that their chances are poor of either getting the election overturned or winning a subsequent by-election if they suceed. I note that the Bloc hasn't said much on this, and they finished second. Coderre's remarks on the flooding are a bit much, as Brosseau hasn't been sworn in as the MP yet.

janfromthebruce

But she did issue a statement about the flooding.

 

I think that they were really trying to get her to quit before she started by going to witchhunt route. But I think that the spectacle of dogs was optically not looking good - sour grapes, poor losers, and just poor behaviour.

Policywonk

janfromthebruce wrote:

But she did issue a statement about the flooding.

 

I think that they were really trying to get her to quit before she started by going to witchhunt route. But I think that the spectacle of dogs was optically not looking good - sour grapes, poor losers, and just poor behaviour.

Yes, and the statement was entirely appropriate.

Vansterdam Kid

Le parti libéral entend contester l’élection de Laurin Liu

Basically the Liberals claim it's "inadmissable" that these candidates didn't get enough signatures to have their elections stand. Yet, at the same time, Elections Canada says that any dispute regarding their legitimacy to be on the ballot will have to be dealt with in the courts because they had accepted the legitimacy of their candidacies when they submitted them.

You know, this really is pathetic. The ranting and raving of some liberal supporters is really embarrassing.

Another thing that I want to know is how does any party gain access to this information from Elections Canada in the first place? Is it publicly available? Because it seems really suspicious to me that a government agency would be funnelling information a partisan source if this information isn't actually publicly available.

janfromthebruce

yeah, I noted and had posted - it pissed me off!

NicHull

Great ideas. Maybe you should send your ideas to the NDP HQ!

SRB wrote:

vermonster wrote:

Such a public roll-out seems to me essential not only to fighting the cheap shots, but also as part of a long term strategy cementing a long term relationship with Quebec voters. That way, these kinds of cheap tricks the Liberals and Conservatives are trying to pull will have less impact on public perceptions. And in the off chance they manage to use the courts to force a by-election somewhere, the public will be more likely to stick with the NDP because they see a party of substance and depth, not the caricature that the other parties and the media are trying to paint right now. 

That's a good idea.  I hope the NDP realizes that what is being challenged throughout the media in both subtle and direct ways is the fitness of the NDP to be the Opposition.

No doubt this will continue throughout the next 4 years.  Among other things, the NDP needs a really good media strategy. 

However, the NDP is also incredibly busy right now with all of its newly minted MPs. (This no doubt explains the relative silence of the party in the face of all these allegations).  Perhaps they need a separate team just to deal with this sort of thing - to start being more proactive and not just reactive.

SRB

NicHull wrote:

Great ideas. Maybe you should send your ideas to the NDP HQ!

Thanks for saying that!  But I'm sure that in the case of my ideas, they've already thought of them or something better.  After all, since its founding the CCF/NDP has always had to contend with a very hostile right-wing media inimical to its aspirations and goals.

NicHull

That's so true what you say for but here in Quebec the NDP is not deeply rooted yet and need to protect its gains. People are wondering why the party is not more present or more agressive in answering all the hostilities from the media. Jack Layton will be back on Tout le monde en parle TV program this coming Sunday, hope he'll be able to reassure people by directly talking to them.

 

SRB wrote:

NicHull wrote:

Great ideas. Maybe you should send your ideas to the NDP HQ!

Thanks for saying that!  But I'm sure that in the case of my ideas, they've already thought of them or something better.  After all, since its founding the CCF/NDP has always had to contend with a very hostile right-wing media inimical to its aspirations and goals.

adma

Dodger718 wrote:
If you look at the Tory caucus, off the top of my head Jason Kenney, John Baird, Pierre Polievre, Patrick Brown and Rob Anders were all elected in their mid-late 20s. I know Patrick Brown is a lawyer and I think the others were basically party hacks from the time they finished college to the time they got elected.

Don't forget James Moore.

And as for Brosseaugate becoming the Rebecca Black "Friday" of Canadian electoral politics, well, may I say this...

Considering their lack of roots, the NPD got a terrific Quebec team--up to a point; because they weren't banking on this kind of success.  My hunch is that they would have been satisfied w/half the Quebec seats they got, presumably w/their cream-of-the-crop candidates--and if the NDP nationally hit 100 seats, it would have been w/additional seats in the ROC rather than a top-heavy Quebec caucus.  Instead, we got this situation--notwithstanding the possibility that some of these 20-year-old Quebeckers may be more politically mature than the twice-their-age Justin Trudeau...

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