NDP broke and busted 2

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Unionist

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

It broke my heart knowing they were working so against their own interests.   Add that to all the civil servants, teachers and others who were doing similar things and you learn the lesson that we Canadians are not quite so politically sophisticated as one would hope.

Brilliant, really, and touching as well. Only two mysteries left unresolved:

1. Why these unsophisticated people (compared to you) who broke your heart elected the NDP in the first place.

2. Why these same people never elected the NDP again.

If you felt a little less superior to all these people "working so against their own interests", you might have figured out the profound feeling of betrayal that they felt - having believed the lying promises, having trusted Bob Rae and his clique, only to see them cynically breaking their word about auto insurance, tearing up collective agreements to make workers pay for the recession, and then telling their own caucus they could vote like homophobes on same-sex beenfits if they felt like it.

You see, these people figured out something you've never grasped. They'll wait for someone who will return their trust before they entrust it again - even if it means electing the more honest kinds of bastards (Harris, McGuinty).

Today, with the departure of Hampton and others of that dark period, and the advent of someone who doesn't look and sound like a toady and a coward, there is actually (IMHO) some hope for the ONDP - but not if they keep listening to the advice of cheerleaders. They should listen to me. Stop funding Catholic schools and give the savings to the poor and minimum wage workers. Kill two birds with one stone.

Now don't you go stealing my platform!!

Fidel

And our little dog, Toto, too! Hold the line! Luv isnt always on time whoa whoa whoaooo

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Sorry, being the old history buff throwing out terms like that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Compact

 

Both Tommy_Paine and I would tell you not much has changed.

na aint u that the school shit cuz I dont learn about canadian history on my own time but we learned about the Chateau thing dont even need to ask why they wouldnt wanna teach about the family compact in ontario because "u know how those ppl start getting ideas they might just think society works that way today".

Cueball Cueball's picture

Thread started out fine with the introduciton of some facts figures and calculations. That was worth discussing. Most of what followed was not.

I would very much like to see some kind of summary put forward about how the $10 minimum wage fits in with a comprehensive relief packege for people in TORONTO, and how the NDP comes to the conclusion that a 10 wage amounts to a meaningful contribution to the city, based in an analysis of the economics of Toronto. I maintain that $10 does not effectively address the problem and that it does not amount to a meaningful increase of the labour market standard as it presently exists.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

on post 51 Unionist is right about ppl losing trust federally n provincially n seeing the ndp as the party that will make concessions and deals with any1. it a big reason still

cueball 10 is better then 8.75 and atm 10 is NOT the effective minimum wage

Fidel

oops I did it again

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

I would very much like to see some kind of summary put forward about how the $10 minimum wage fits in with a comprehensive relief packege for people in TORONTO, and how the NDP comes to the conclusion that a 10 wage amounts to a meaningful contribution to the city, based in an analysis of the economics of Toronto.

Well you still havent produced your economic analysis for Toronto. And the ONDP is calling for [url=http://ontariondp.com/11-11-dinovo-bill-raises-minimum-wage-poverty-line]$10.50/hr to-day[/url] and $11 by 2011, and they are calling for more than just a pay raise for the economic serfs in Liberal Ontario.  

Quote:
[url=http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/04/02/poverty-report.html]An... Duffield,[/url] a Toronto single mom of three who has lived on social assistance, said she actually earns less working a minimum-wage job after child-care costs and rent than she did on social assistance. But social assistance cheques don't cover school trips, birthday presents or Christmas, she added.
  
"It's not a pleasant experience," said Duffield. "Social assistance levels are extremely low. You do not receive enough for even the basic necessities. You have to rely on the food bank and there is not enough for even the proper basic clothing allowance for your children.

Pinocchio's Lieberalers simply laugh at poverty and low wage philanthropy as we bleed jobs and young people from our Northern Puerto Rico trading freely with that madhouse south of us, the USsA.

Fidel

And since this is a forum for Canadian Politics , we should take the opportunity to squeel on repressive old line parties at both levels of government!

[url=http://www2.canada.com/windsorstar/news/letters/story.html?id=d58c64d7-4... sales tax hits seniors[/url]

Quote:
 I have looked at the income tax returns I prepared for seniors for 2008 and have concluded the people who can least afford it are going to be hit hardest.
Two of my clients had incomes of $14,755.26 and that included the federal Guaranteed Income Supplement and the Ontario Social Assistance payment, well below the poverty line. Both governments should be ashamed of themselves for expecting any senior to survive on this income.
I have many other clients, who are single seniors and whose incomes are below $18,000 which, because it is considered below the poverty level for Ontario, means they do not pay income taxes. As a result, the reduction in the Ontario income tax rate does not give them any benefit.

 For qualifying single seniors, the proposed increase in the sales tax rebate will give them an extra $160 each year and the increase in the property tax credit will, in most cases, add an amount ranging between $80 to $200 for a maximum increase of $360 in provincial tax credits. This leaves most with yearly increases in costs of up to $500 due to the HST.

 

 

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

exactly ppl ask why stay on welfare? cuz u get more n str8 up even if it was the same id stay on the welfare

 

"cuz think about it, ya mind clouded/ u go to work bitchin, I chill on the blood pitchin/

n even if I wind up dead, succed by the fedz/ Nigga gotta get my bread/

 

mo money mo problems thas real/ hood like a wheel, niggas gettin kill itz real/

aint a joke, inhale exhale the smoke, shotz poke, leave u deada then a fur coat/

 

aint tryna bring heat so dont quote, but this was off the top cuz I felt provoked/

how u gonna say it a 10, na me or my endz, mayb jus u n ya friendz/

 

so then dont talk, niggas c-walk, u aint got no view like a hawk/

I dont say I know the whole city, but I know the west all gritty/

 

n ima assume, east also got dem goons, northside killa tunes/

so if it the same, uz a lame, ya shit is off like dicc cheneyz aim/

 

dis mighta come outa nowhere but it gonna stay/

in pipes n needles is where dem lil kidz play/

 

n I could keep goin but ima end it, copy paste n send it/

cuz u already know what the nex line gonna be about/

 

Ima artist spit what I see without a doubt/

part of a dien breed like da trout, hold me down know ima givea shout/"

 

 

shit tell the truth cuz na mean it aint 10 so why u liein wus craccin thats all im about to say still was gonna write but then im thinkin gotta reply so I merged it str8

 

edit- Always wondered why it so low Fidel I know seniors who show they divorced so each get the 10-12k they would get n pool it together still aint shit but u know gotta make somethin outa nothin. I know one who the guy never worked in canada he get like 11k I think and the women did officialy so she gets like 16-18k cant remember exact so u know they pool it together.

Fidel

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:
edit- Always wondered why it so low Fidel I know seniors who show they divorced so each get the 10-12k they would get n pool it together still aint shit but u know gotta make somethin outa nothin. I know one who the guy never worked in canada he get like 11k I think and the women did officialy so she gets like 16-18k cant remember exact so u know they pool it together.

That's sort of the way it works, R_P. There are thousands of seniors in Canada who qualify for something called old age supplementary income from the feds but never even apply for it. And the feds dont give it to them automatically. Old age supplementary is for seniors whose incomes are anywhere below some level - I think it's around $15,000. Below that they dont pay income tax. Old age supplementary could mean something like an additional four or five thousand dollars a year(or whatever the individual case may be) in income for thousands of older Canadians. And they never apply to the feds for it. Many dont know about it. And I think in some cases, they naturally think their income is too high for them to qualify for any income assistance.

And then there is the opportunity for income splitting. For instance, a senior male of of the household is of age to collect Canada Pension(he's 65 or older). All of his pensions combined give him, say, $20,000 a year in retirement. And his wife is under 60 years of age, doesnt work and has no income and is not working as part of the same example. She can declare half of his income to the feds as well as use tax credits available to her by virtue of having an income to declare. The husband declares the other half and would then qualify for OAS supplementary income, which will be about another $3000 dollars per year from the feds. And I think, but dont quote me, that the wife could also receive a spouse's allowance from the feds worth something like $225 a month.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

ima checc it out n tell ppl still Rexpect

Cueball Cueball's picture

Fidel wrote:

Well you still havent produced your economic analysis for Toronto. And the ONDP is calling for [url=http://ontariondp.com/11-11-dinovo-bill-raises-minimum-wage-poverty-line]$10.50/hr to-day[/url] and $11 by 2011, and they are calling for more than just a pay raise for the economic serfs in Liberal Ontario.

 

Heh. So there isn't a plan. Just this throw away "raise" the minimum raise pseudo populist stunt. Bull.

What about an integrated relief plan? Including rent control, a raise in the welfare rate, and real increase in wages.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

Heh. So there isn't a plan. Just this throw away "raise" the minimum raise pseudo populist stunt. Bull.

What about an integrated relief plan? Including rent control, a raise in the welfare rate, and real increase in wages.

Even more. Look it up, youre a smart guy. You have google and power of the internet at your fingertips. Dont be lazy. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

You seem to talk a lot about something that you know nothing about apparently. You don't live here, you don't vote here, and when questioned you don't know the answers. Not that any of that stops you from talking about stuff you know nothing about.

So, I checked the web site, and discovered that there is nothing other than the supposed wage increase, which isnt really a wage increase. Other than that, there is not comprehensive outline of a poverty action plan. There isn't even a "poverty committee" even in the ONDP, apparently.

Fidel

Why dont you tell us more about how there are no family breadwinners in Toronto working for minimum wage, even in this neoliberal shitshow of an economy? Or that there are no seniors living below poverty line anywhere in McGuilty's platano republica? And dont give Toronto Pinocchio all the credit. The other wing of the property party in Ottawa are equal the people haters.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Its not suprising you hold the view that you do. You don't live here, and the NDP hasn't published any figures to back up their policy to show how it would work. Not suprisingly because any detailed analysis of the economy in Toronto will reveal that $10 before taxes is about as low as wages go already, unless people are supplementing their income elsewhere.

This $10 an hour thing is just some flypaper the NDP through at the wall in the hope that it would stick. It didn't.

Fidel

What about Liberal MP Ruby Dhalla paying Filipina home care workers $3.70/hr to skivvy for the family and clean chiropractic clinics 14 hours a day under threat of deportation back to that US client state and paradise from which they fled? Are all Liberal Party members so generous with the love and respect for workers in their employ?

Slumberjack

Announcing anything more than $10.00/hr as an NDP plank doesn't serve any purpose.  Why scare the business community and the corporations when instead they could just toss out something that is meaningless, essentially table scraps in comparitive reality with a benchmark that has already been surpassed for the most part.  Even the call centers down here in the rural economic backwaters where I live are paying between 9.50 and 12.00/hr.  Tell me again about the NDP's pro-worker, anti-poverty policies?

Cueball Cueball's picture

Exactly, workers have to be supported when they are off work by increasing welfare and EI benefits in order to put preassure on the market value of labour.

Cueball Cueball's picture

As we can see in this handy chart, the average wage in almost all occupations listed in the Toronto/York Region area is already above $10 an hour, with the notable exceptions of the service industry where workers expect tips.

CITY of Toronto Wages

So, a $10 minimum is not going to raise the average wage, or even affect the lowest paid workers that much, since in the great majority of cases, even the lowest paid are already in the $10 an hour ballpark.

The two categories of workers that would benefit the most are Cashiers and Service Station attendants, who would see their average wage go up by a buck fourty.

What would impact the market, and drive up labour rates is increased welfare rate, which will put preassure on the market. Setting the minimum wage to below the already existing standard wage, will simply flatten out the bottom of wage curve for a small section of people.

 

Fidel

That's a rough guide if someone wants to know vaguely what people are supposed to be paid in TO according to some city guy's numbers.  It's too bad it doesnt tell us anything meaningful though, like a Rev Canada report with some actual numbers plugged in for effect.

And I thought you said there are no cashiers, gas station attendants, home care workers, general labourers, Filipina home care workers, or service industry workers in general living and working in Toronto? Are you saying not everyone in Toronto is a highly  paid professional? 

Cueball Cueball's picture

You are hilarious. Those are the numbers derived from samples of EI benefit claims. In other words it is revenue Canada data. But' you'll say anything no matter how insane, and unfounded, just as long as you think it sounds good. You sure you aren't some Liberal guy who comes here to make the NDP rank and file look like dishonest and craven idiots, who will sell any bullshit they think will sell?

Slumberjack

It gives one a sense that the NDPs platform is a lot similar to those 'green shoots' in the economy that we're being told about, when what we're actually looking at is gangrene.

Fidel

Quote:
The information is derived from an anonymous sample of Employmet Insurance claim data. No personal information of any client was made available or transmitted. Claim data is from the Toronto/York area and was administratively collected during 2005. Some occupational groups are not shown due to having insufficient numbers which seriously affected the accuracy of their wage estimates.

And there was some mention of the min wage rate increasing to $8 dollars an hour. And that was when the neoliberal shitshow economy was still hobbling along somewhat before the big swan dive.

What youre looking for is a report from the feds describing actual mean and even median incomes in Toronto as declared on all personal and business income tax claims, and which may be broken down by quintiles, quartiles etc or even by family incomes. What you posted up there is gibberish. It's a rough guide for wages of skilled and semi-skilled workers and doesnt even list all of those.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Of course its an anonymous sample. They just took the figures from the files. What were they supposed to do, publish their names? It is Revenue Canada data. That is what you asked for. Now that you discovered that you can't attack it because its "what people are supposed to be paid in TO according to some city guy's numbers", and is in fact Revenue Canada data about, what people were paid, you want to attack it because they properly protected the privacy of the data sources.

It's a hell of a lot better than your imaginary workers, and the total lack of figures provided by you or the NDP, I might add.

Why don't you try "all the numbers are fake" because "all the employers are in cahoots with the workers", filling out bogus large claims for kickbacks or something. You'll grab a hold of any piece of wood so that you can beat the passengers back into your sinking ship.

 

Fidel

I think at some point you should ask yourself if you plan on being full of shit the rest of your life, or will you decide to put some effort into bullshitting social democrats like myself. We might even take you seriously.

Cueball Cueball's picture

No facts. No figures. No plan.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Quote:
In Toronto a single person must earn more than $14/hr to afford an average rent bachelor while a family needs a combined income of almost $25/hr, more than three times the average wage.

Minimum Housing Wage 2006

 

Benjamin

Fidel wrote:

I think at some point you should ask yourself if you plan on being full of shit the rest of your life, or will you decide to put some effort into bullshitting social democrats like myself. We might even take you seriously.

I think at some point you should respond to the objective facts put in front of your face rather than resorting to rhetoric and swearing.

The numbers were shown to you that in Toronto, the average worker, even in low-paid service sector jobs, earns more than $10/hour.  The numbers were shown to you that in Toronto, a $10/hour wage would be ineffective in providing adequate housing.  This is not to say that some people in Toronto make less than $10/hour (obviously some do), but the objective facts suggest that a $10/hour minimum wage would be functionally meaningless to workers in Toronto.

Systemic social change will not be achieved with minor tinkering and throw away policies.  A $10 minimum wage, or $11 wage, absent a coherent poverty policy framework with respect to housing, social assistance, employment standards, and taxation, will simply not result in major social justice gains.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Benjamin wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I think at some point you should ask yourself if you plan on being full of shit the rest of your life, or will you decide to put some effort into bullshitting social democrats like myself. We might even take you seriously.

I think at some point you should respond to the objective facts put in front of your face rather than resorting to rhetoric and swearing.

The numbers were shown to you that in Toronto, the average worker, even in low-paid service sector jobs, earns more than $10/hour.  The numbers were shown to you that in Toronto, a $10/hour wage would be ineffective in providing adequate housing.  This is not to say that some people in Toronto make less than $10/hour (obviously some do), but the objective facts suggest that a $10/hour minimum wage would be functionally meaningless to workers in Toronto.

Systemic social change will not be achieved with minor tinkering and throw away policies.  A $10 minimum wage, or $11 wage, absent a coherent poverty policy framework with respect to housing, social assistance, employment standards, and taxation, will simply not result in major social justice gains.

Or minors ones.

Fidel

Benjamin wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I think at some point you should ask yourself if you plan on being full of shit the rest of your life, or will you decide to put some effort into bullshitting social democrats like myself. We might even take you seriously.

I think at some point you should respond to the objective facts put in front of your face rather than resorting to rhetoric and swearing

And what about the single mother in Toronto described in the CBC article? She says minimum wage isnt enough to live on in Toronto, and that welfare rates in Liberal Ontario are awful, too.

Are there Filippina nannies being paid $3.71 an hour by well-known Liberal MP's to clean chiropractic clinics and do other skivvy work in Toronto or arent there?

Why are you people going out of your way to insulate a bunch of Liberal Party hypocrites from blame in this northern Puerto Rico? The UN says min wage and welfare rates in Liberal Ontario are a violation of basic human rights. If you people want to argue with UN officials about poverty in Ontario, then please, step up to the plate. But please dont try to bullshit any one NDP'er at a given time. Because where there is one social democrat, any and all apologists for the old line party setup in this country will always be outnumbered I'm afraid. Talk crap to a social democrat anywhere, and youre going to be yelled at and mocked and told what's up straight up.

 

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/news/toronto-janitors-organize-rights-respect-and-j... janitors organize for rights, respect and justice[/url]

 

Quote:

"In my six years as a cleaner," Da Silva says, "it's always the same problem. Wages are low, close to minimum wage. No benefits, no protection against firing. The supervisors have all the power. Yet we brought the workers together and won the vote for a union at Bee Clean."

 

In Toronto, minimum wage (currently $8.25/hour) will do little more than pay for your basement apartment, Da Silva says. "You need a second job for food and clothing, and sometimes a third."

"I don't say that Canada is bad," says Da Silva, a recent immigrant from Brazil. "But the work we do is important, and we work hard. We can get more, but only through the union can we obtain the power" for such gains.

If a new comer from Brazil says poverty and low wages are a problem in Liberal Ontario, then I think it's a good bet they arent exaggerating. And if a living wage in Toronto is $16 or $17 dollars an hour, then surely $8.75/hr is an insult to everyone involved. There has to be a respectable wage floor as well as a raise in welfare rates, new social housing built on a scale of say, Blairite-Brownie Britain or even New York City, and proper funding of public services like day care etc.

Fidel

So what youre saying really is that Pinocchio's Liberal government continues to fail poor people in Ontario from just about every angle possible including the miserably low minimum wage rate.

Fidel

I forgot, this is supposed to be an inflamatory thread where all the Liberal Party shills circle the wagons against the NDP. I apologize for thinking we could criticize Pinocchio's Liberals and their federal counterparts for doing such a miserable job on the economy and dealing with persistent poverty in this frozen Puerto Rico.

Unionist

Quote:
On April 26, 2009, CCPA Manitoba released a comprehensive document (The View From Here: Manitobans call for a poverty reduction plan) calling on the Manitoba government to make poverty reduction a core component of economic and social policies in Manitoba. Such a plan would make Manitoba a leader in the implementation of a vision to address the needs and aspirations of our citizens in the 21st century.

Amongst other things, the plan proposes that the province adopt an active labour market policy that includes changes in legislation to promote the formation of trade unions, improvements in employment standards, and continued increases in the minimum wage. [...]

At present, a full-time, full-year minimum wage worker earns $ 17,062.50 per year. The 25 cent increase October 1 will bump annual earnings to $17,750.00. However, even with this increase, annual earnings will fall short of the before-tax Low-Income Cut-Off of $21,866 for a single person by $4,116. The implication of this unacceptable shortfall is that the provincial government needs to accelerate increases to the minimum wage to lift the tens of thousands of workers to $11.20 an hour associated with the $21,866 low-income cut-off.

[url=Canadian">http://www.policyalternatives.ca/~ASSETS/DOCUMENT/Manitoba_Pubs/FF_impro... Centre for Policy Alternatives - Manitoba Office[/url]

Cueball Cueball's picture

 

Look, you don't really have anything to contribute to this thread, other than a lot of flag waving, perhaps you could drop it.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Here is another example of your off-topic rambling:

Fidel wrote:

Are there Filippina nannies being paid $3.71 an hour by well-known Liberal MP's to clean chiropractic clinics and do other skivvy work in Toronto or arent there?

Why are you people going out of your way to insulate a bunch of Liberal Party hypocrites from blame in this northern Puerto Rico? The UN says min wage and welfare rates in Liberal Ontario are a violation of basic human rights. If you people want to argue with UN officials about poverty in Ontario, then please, step up to the plate. But please dont try to bullshit any one NDP'er at a given time. Because where there is one social democrat, any and all apologists for the old line party setup in this country will always be outnumbered I'm afraid. Talk crap to a social democrat anywhere, and youre going to be yelled at and mocked and told what's up straight up.

The issue of people working illegally is entirely off topic, and urelated to the issue of government enforced minimum wage for legal employment. Its actually pretty clear that you don't really care about exploited workers, other than as a tool scoring cheap voter brownie points, as can be seen by your off-topic ramblings, insults and smear jobs.

Fidel

Hey Cueball, there's another post that had nothing to do with Toronto.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

Here is another example of your off-topic rambling:

Fidel wrote:

Are there Filippina nannies being paid $3.71 an hour by well-known Liberal MP's to clean chiropractic clinics and do other skivvy work in Toronto or arent there?

Why are you people going out of your way to insulate a bunch of Liberal Party hypocrites from blame in this northern Puerto Rico? The UN says min wage and welfare rates in Liberal Ontario are a violation of basic human rights. If you people want to argue with UN officials about poverty in Ontario, then please, step up to the plate. But please dont try to bullshit any one NDP'er at a given time. Because where there is one social democrat, any and all apologists for the old line party setup in this country will always be outnumbered I'm afraid. Talk crap to a social democrat anywhere, and youre going to be yelled at and mocked and told what's up straight up.

The issue of people working illegally is entirely off topic, and urelated to the issue of government enforced minimum wage for legal employment. Its actually pretty clear that you don't really care about exploited workers, other than as a tool scoring cheap voter brownie points, as can be seen by your off-topic ramblings, insults and smear jobs.

But that was Liberal MP Ruby Dhalla. Are you saying she broke the law in Ontario?

How do you reconcile this with your Liberal Party bullshit about there being no low wage workers or persistent poverty in Toronto or Liberal Ontario as a whole?

I can see now why the smear job on the NDP suggesting wrongly and falsely that they are focussed only on raising minimum wage rates. There should be other measures designed specifically to deal with Liberal MP's who sidestep the system when hiring slave wage workers in Toronto.

 

Fidel

They can earn a living wage in Toronto apparently if they take on two or three slave wage jobs. And that they should keep quiet about it especially if taken advantage of by top capos in the Liberal Party. It's a beautiful country really. I think that's what our resident Liberal Party apologists are trying to say without actually saying it.

Fidel

oops I did it again, yeah baby

Unionist

[url=GTA">http://www.policyalternatives.ca/news/2008/11/pressrelease2011/?pa=BB736... working poor need pay hike: CCPA Study[/url]

Quote:
In Canada’s most expensive urban area, Ontario’s minimum wage falls far short of what families need for a decent standard of living, says the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.

The study, A Living Wage for Toronto, estimates two working parents raising two young children would need to earn $16.60 an hour each, with both parents working full-time and year-round, to be able to live adequately within the Greater Toronto Area.

“There’s a big difference between having enough to survive – and Ontario’s minimum wage doesn’t even do that – and having enough to participate in the life of the community” says study co-author Hugh Mackenzie, CCPA research associate. “The living wage is the income threshold a family has to cross to avoid being marginalized.”

The study takes into account the major costs facing families raising children in the GTA, and estimates how high their wage should be in order to have a decent standard of life.

“We held focus groups with families in the GTA to confirm our estimates reflected the reality of everyday living,” says co-author Jim Stanford, CCPA research associate. “We discovered that while it covers the basics, our living wage number is still quite modest."

The full study is [url=here[/url]">http://www.policyalternatives.ca/~ASSETS/DOCUMENT/Ontario_Office_Pubs/20..., while the executive summary can be found [url=here[/url]">http://www.policyalternatives.ca/~ASSETS/DOCUMENT/Ontario_Office_Pubs/20....

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Cueball wrote:

Quote:
In Toronto a single person must earn more than $14/hr to afford an average rent bachelor while a family needs a combined income of almost $25/hr, more than three times the average wage.

Minimum Housing Wage 2006

 

u realize that in usin this to prove Fidel wrong u also dig up ur bullshit? 25 an hour more then 3x the AVG WAGE what that tell u bro what I been saying bare ppl dont make 10. A lot of ppl work 2 jobs 5 days plus on the weekend to make ends meet.

 

edit- u can say it from 06 but shit gotten worse since then in real terms esp because of the agencies

Cueball Cueball's picture

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Quote:
In Toronto a single person must earn more than $14/hr to afford an average rent bachelor while a family needs a combined income of almost $25/hr, more than three times the average wage.

Minimum Housing Wage 2006

 

u realize that in usin this to prove Fidel wrong u also dig up ur bullshit? 25 an hour more then 3x the AVG WAGE what that tell u bro what I been saying bare ppl dont make 10. A lot of ppl work 2 jobs 5 days plus on the weekend to make ends meet.

Sure. But you are talking about reality, this is about theoretical targets.

Average is average. There are pockets of this or that. It's also based on the average cost of a Bachelor Apartment at $600. It is possible in some neighborhoods to score a place at $450 to $550 and so on. Again, averages.

Anyone living indpendently in their own tiny little flat has to be making $12 an hour at least to be getting by (14 if you are eating relatively decently). Everyone else is supplementing their income. Supplementing could be anything from dealing, to scaming welfare, working 20 hours a week above 40 hours and so on. Otherwise they are sharing rent with friends, GF/BF, living with family or otherwise.

Just based on the basic economics, talking about a single person, in order to live alone, the minimum necessary wage for the average person living in an average bachelor is about $14 an hour, working 40 hours a week. Basically that is the same as $8 an hour at 60 hours, do you see what I mean?

The way they worked this number out was simple. They took the average cost of a Bachelor, then said the cost of accomodation should not be more than 1/3rd of someones disposable income, then said how much money per hour does someone need to make in a 40 hour work week to cover the that cost at that rate.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:
Everyone else is supplementing their income. Supplementing could be anything from dealing, to scaming welfare, working 20 hours a week above 40 hours and so on. Otherwise they are sharing rent with friends, GF/BF, living with family or otherwise.

This amounts to poor bashing Mike the Knife style, and I'm flagging it. Liberal, Tory, theyre the same fuckin' party.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Yeah dude. Now you are getting the picture. People are being forced to scam the system in Toronto because the cost of an average bachelor apartment is more than the maximum allotment on welfare. What noodle did you slide down into this conversation on?

I guess its the Montreal noodle, because in Montreal, a fair minimum wage, actually would be $10 an hour. We hear this crap all the time from people from elsewhere in the country. They go: "Wow, you are making $10 an hour, you must be rich! I want to move to rich Toronto."

Quote:
Montreal, although one of the three largest metropolitan regions is notable for the relative level of rental affordability, ranks 20th among the 28 census metropolitan areas (cma). The least expensive places are also in Quebec – where Sherbrooke, Trois Rivière and Saguenay – all have average rents that are affordable to both single persons and two-earner families earning minimum wage.

From the same source as above.

Fidel

Whether it occurs in even a few cases or not, it's poor bashing Mike Harris style. Youre painting welfare recipients in Liberal Ontario with a wide neocon brush, and it has no place on a progressive forum. Studies have shown that very few people "scam" the bloated welfare bureaucracy still in place since Mike Harris. Youre full of shit as usual.

Liberal, Tory, theyre the same fuckin party. And if you want to refer to me as dude, I'll just refer to you as I think you deserve in kind, ie. piece of shit old line party shill

Cueball Cueball's picture

It's not poor bashing to point out that people MUST scam something somewhere in order to get by on the pitiful wages being offered by the Liberal/Tory/NDP corporate party. Poor bashing is the NDP strutting aroung pretending that $10 an hour is some big fucking deal.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

on that tho they charge u to call the ambulance now cuz ppl used to get off work, call the ambuclance go to waiting n they used to have food n diapers there they would get full change they babies diaper n when the doctor said there nothin wrong with u they would say aii im gone then lol U gotta do what u gotta do but I c u cueball n it tru still u cant raise a family on welfare or minimum wage.

 

so u know in reality the effective minimum wage aint 10 aint even the average either u know but yea we strugglin hard.

 

most ppl dont scam welfare still n the ones that you could say do along with other stuff I dont even call it scamming cuz working 60 hours a week aint illegal or scamming n if shit is "illegal" it aint cuz it wrong it because anything the working class does to try n make ends meet is considered wrong.

Fidel

[url=http://books.google.ca/books?id=P15Ye7AcS34C&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=Ontar...'Welfare fraud' and poor bashing in Canada for old line party shills[/url] and arsehole creepers alike

Cueball Cueball's picture

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

on that tho they charge u to call the ambulance now cuz ppl used to get off work, call the ambuclance go to waiting n they used to have food n diapers there they would get full change they babies diaper n when the doctor said there nothin wrong with u they would say aii im gone then lol U gotta do what u gotta do but I c u cueball n it tru still u cant raise a family on welfare or minimum wage.

 

so u know in reality the effective minimum wage aint 10 aint even the average either u know but yea we strugglin hard.

 

most ppl dont scam welfare still n the ones that you could say do along with other stuff I dont even call it scamming cuz working 60 hours a week aint illegal or scamming n if shit is "illegal" it aint cuz it wrong it because anything the working class does to try n make ends meet is considered wrong.

The system is rigged, and the biggest issue is the welfare rate. Raising it will push the market value of labour up. Minimum wage, will just flatten the statistic at the low end of the scale.

"Scamming" is a great Canadian tradition of those who know they are getting fucked. The system is so screwed up now that people are forced to work under the table, so they can get by on welfare. Anyone who is on the edge of starvation has the right to scam. It's fucking duty.

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