NDP: Broke and Busted?

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WillC

Cueball wrote:

 Banjo, someone who I have a agreed with maybe once in my entire posting history.

Thanks for even remembering who I am here as I post little, and when I do, I'm usually off topic. Though I disagree with you here about support for the NDP, I would probably agree with you more than I would with 98% of the population. 

There are so many people on the right to be angry with, I'm not going to waste it on the left.

Fidel

We'll see if the Tories attack ads in Nova Scotia have an effect on voters. In one ad a woman says something like, ~ We can't afford a socialist government.  It's a sign theyre running scared when they dont want to talk about their record in government or state of the neoliberalized economy thanks to their old line party cousins in Ottawa.

I guess it's one step above Liberal Party attack ads against Tommy and the CCF way back when.

NDPP

You may have noticed the NDP recently making much of it's supposed closeness to the "inner circle" of the Obama Democrats and Layton's intention to help sell the plan to Americans. Here's some additional information which you won't get from those NDP press releases:

Obama Chooses Private Profit over Healthcare's needs

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jun2009/pers-j08.shtml

"Despite the fevered rhetoric of the ultra-right, the Obama administration's plans have nothing in common with such a restructuring of the healthcare system, along socialist lines. On the contrary, Obama has repeatedly sought to reassure the profiteers that their interests will be looked after and that they are better off at the table working with him, then outside. The for-profit healthcare and insurance firms have taken up this offer with enthusiasm..

A major reason for the changed posture of the corporation is the financial crisis sweeping world capitalism. They see Obama's healthcare "reform" as an opportunity to join the banks and speculators in raiding the federal treasury."

I find the frequent citing of the Dem/Obama connection by the NDP to be repugnant. There is nothing in Brand Obama that should inspire any genuinely progressive formation to indentify themselves with this latest imperialist warmonger and shill a crooked US health scam to an already oppressed US citizenry.  As a diseased and corrupted social democratic party, the NDP is probably best abandoned. The polls would indicate many agree and have already done so.

Fidel

And I wont be a votin' for the fuckin Liberals. Theyre the other wing of the same private property party, just a few different rich friends to cater to when in power. But basically there's no real daylight between 'em.

Debater

The most important comment in that article may be from the political science professor who points out that it is unrealistic of the NDP to try and supplant the Liberals as the main alternative to the Conservatives as it has been unsuccessful in doing that since the 1960's.  If the NDP couldn't defeat the Liberals to become the opposition in the last election, it is unlikely to happen at any time in the near future.

What the NDP can do however, is to continue to work towards the social democratic values that many voters believe in and which allow the NDP to have a credibility on certain issues than the 2 bigger parties who are in power.

KenS

Thank you for reminding us where our corner is. I know that was objectively assessed. The alignment with then needs of the Liberal Party is only a coincidence.

Fidel

Yes, I guess we are to assume that only the Liberals have credibility on the fiscal and economic end of things at this point in time as the second-hand ideology comes crashing down around their ears, as debt soars and as unemployment skyrockets after twelve years of the Liberal's top-down neoliberal voodoo.

Cueball Cueball's picture

KenS wrote:

Thank you for reminding us where our corner is. I know that was objectively assessed. The alignment with then needs of the Liberal Party is only a coincidence.

Never mind the "needs" of Canadians.

Bookish Agrarian

If I thought for a second that there was one progressive thing the Liberals could be depended upon to support I might buy into your oh so objective comments Debater.  Since the Liberals are simply the other face of conservative, Freidmanesque economic policy I will continue to believe the Liberals are a parasite on the body politic of Canada rather than a solution thanks.

genstrike

(something about this thread turning into a shit-show in four hours)

Fidel

Youre loitering in the wrong thread again. Manitoba's thataway

Peter3

genstrike wrote:

(something about this thread turning into a shit-show in four hours)

It was a shit-show from the moment the opening post went up.

remind remind's picture

Yep, and somehow we are supposed to believe that a single issue person, who wants his tuition paid for, with little thought to anything else has a handle on something worth thinking about.

RavenDarke

Arguements can be constructive or destructive. In the case of the NDP both regionally and nationally arguement has come to mean only dissent. Canada is a large and complex nation. I say this not to state the obvious, but to point out that a constant naysaying of another persons position doesn't serve Canada well or those of us who want a Canada that is something better than a replica of the United States. The NDP, serves as a necessary focal point for such a difference. We do not want a two party system. The Liberals and the Conservatives are essentially beholden to the same interests. Interests that, by thier political and financial power, weild a lot of control. I firmly believe it is possible to be both activist and legislator. I see no inherhent contradiction from speaking up both at the ballot box and the street. Just as I don't feel that my efforts to engage members of the NDP are a waste or a dilution of effort.

 

Occasionly history affords movements a moment to make a leap forward but often the real work comes from days and nights of small personal gains and expenditure. Also to address the NDP's showing in the media without both acknowledging the problem of media consolidation and ownership and the history of how the NDP was marginalized by the media, is virtually useless in my opinion.

remind remind's picture

Quote:
to address the NDP's showing in the media without both acknowledging the problem of media consolidation and ownership and the history of how the NDP was marginalized by the media, is virtually useless in my opinion.

As is the ignoring of the reality that the federal NDP made a conscious decision not to fund raise, when provincal NDP parties needed to fund raise.

To try and spin that as a negative and try make political hay out of it, is nasty politics, and extremely anti-democratic.

 

Uncle John

The NDP seem to have socialists and radical leftists very well conned. At various times in its history, the NDP has propped up Liberal and Conservative governments. When they got into power in various provinces, they were not particularly socialist.

It seems like the NDP is a necessary part of the Liberal-Conservative dictatorship we have lived under for 140-odd years. When the NDP is up, the Tories win. When they are down, the Liberals win. And all the time they can talk about "Working Canadians" and "Canadian Families", "Making the Streets Safe", and "Fiscal Responsibility"

Bash me for being a leftist. But don't worry. It's not really me. It's about more Liberal and Tory government. But I can bray economic nonsense and say I am for the little guy, even though the little guy would go to hell in a handbasket because of my policies.

Hypocrisy, thy alternate spelling is Liberal-Tory-NDP...

The NDP is about as radical as the old PC Party.

genstrike

remind wrote:

Yep, and somehow we are supposed to believe that a single issue person, who wants his tuition paid for, with little thought to anything else has a handle on something worth thinking about.

So, I guess I'm just some stupid young leftist who doesn't know anything?

Fuck you too.

I care about a lot of issues, this is just one of the big ones as a student and the only one that causes controversy on rabble because when you're fighting for affordable PSE in Manitoba, you're in opposition to the NDP

genstrike

Uncle John wrote:

The NDP seem to have socialists and radical leftists very well conned. At various times in its history, the NDP has propped up Liberal and Conservative governments. When they got into power in various provinces, they were not particularly socialist.

....

The NDP is about as radical as the old PC Party.

I think you're pretty much dead on with this post, although there are a lot of socialists and radical leftists who aren't conned as well (although we tend to just focus on working on issues and don't get together into some overarching party).  Especially with people my age, who seemed to be turned off by party politics (and NDP betrayals) but still do care about issues.  I don't think I'm conned (I'm not a member), but I think I sometimes have difficulty accepting this reality completely.  Part of it might be due to working with some people in the NDP on occaision.  So I wind up occaisionally posting on babble even though as a radical and non-NDPer I don't quite fit in with the self-righteous progressive NDP milieu who thinks they're the be-all and end-all of the left for a bit until I get frustrated with people like Fidel and remind.

remind remind's picture

yep, pretty much empty rhetoric of uncle john's, a resident Liberal sock puppet pretending to be left, that you are aggreeing with.

Do you not realize that federal government is the main reason for high tuition in PSE? Nor that t he NDP are the only ones addressing this in the federal arena where it has to be first and foremost addressed?

You also do not realize that had you any other government than the NDP, there would have been no tuition freeze for the last 10 years, and tuition would have been higher long ago. Moreover, Manitoba has the lowest tuition fees for PSE in Canada, and should you have had any other government than the NDP, this would NOT have been the case either. Your views are extremely short sighted, and not focused accurately.

But I guess you are going to have to get a taste of what it is like before you will understand what actual betrayals are.

 

 

Common Sense De...

The NDP will never have the appeal to win federally.

 The people of Canada are far too ignorant and distracted by consumerism and the rat race that is the reality of the game called survival in our society.  The media is aligned against them and at the end of the day people want to back a winning team. 

It's human nature.

 What the NDP can do though is continue to provide a kcik in the ribs to the beast that is the Consevative and Liberal party. Each time they rule us the NDP can point out the corruption and failures that we are forced to witness. 

I give those NDP politicians great credit for standing up to the mic every day and getting shit on for their honesty. (most of them)

In the end history has shown that if you want radical change you have to take it. Either through mass non violent societal protest or through violent upheaval.

The rest is just politics and we all know that that don't accomplish much.     

ottawaobserver

Quote:

The NDP will never have the appeal to win federally.

Now, replace "federally" with "in Nova Scotia" and even I could have uttered those words 20 years ago.  Never is a long time, and whenever people use that word in politics, they're usually due for a big karmic humiliation down the road.

Common Sense De...

ottawaobserver wrote:

Quote:

The NDP will never have the appeal to win federally.

Now, replace "federally" with "in Nova Scotia" and even I could have uttered those words 20 years ago.  Never is a long time, and whenever people use that word in politics, they're usually due for a big karmic humiliation down the road.

Sure....

remind remind's picture

"Its human nature"?

I have found very little in human life other than survival instincts to be generalized by way of "it's human nature".

Most oftern it is operant conditioned responses to stimulas, that have nothing to do with human nature at all, other than the fact that humans can be indoctrinated just like animals, as opposed to having independant thought and action.

RavenDarke

It's short sighted to say never. It's unlikely because and I hate to say this, people are inherently selfish. They have bought into the tax-cut mantra. ANd it doesn't matter weither it's Iggy or Stevey saying it. Personally I have had my full of Teddy Ruxpin politicians. Change his vest to red or blue and change his tape and he's new and improved, not. If the NDP wants to have a hope of victory federally in the next 20 years they have to start representing the aspirations of hard working Canadians and they have to stop listening to expensive lobbyists and image consultants.

Uncle John

remind, if you can't win an argument intellectually, you shouldn't call people names. Because if you do, everyone will see you have lost the argument. If you want to take on any of the points I have made, I will be happy to debate any one.

janfromthebruce

In other news today, Iggy and his right wing liberal red sweater team voted with Harper and his blue sweater team for his "new and improved" tough on crime bill. We now can add 72 liberal votes who keep the Harper agenda on track for more regressive social policies.

So pray tell, why are we going to be voting out the blue shirts for the red shirts?

Oh, and in other news, Iggy has now become the darling and major cheerleader for the diry oilsands. Can't wait for Dion - I wear a green scarf to become their official dirty oil mascot. Sure call an election because having 5 in 5 years will make is big difference - not - LOL.

And that is my response to uncle john's debate.

remind remind's picture

Uncle John wrote:
remind, if you can't win an argument intellectually, you shouldn't call people names. Because if you do, everyone will see you have lost the argument. If you want to take on any of the points I have made, I will be happy to debate any one.

I never called you a name, I stated what you were, based upon your posting history here, and you never made any points for me to debate you on intellectually, so that would be pretty hard to do, let alone foster any desire on my part to argue over empty nothings with you. All that needed to be done was indicate you spouted nothing but empty rhetoric.

Uncle John

remind, You called me a "sock puppet", which is a derogatory name.

As I am a human being, I am not a "sock puppet".

Therefore, you called me a name.

Now you are lying about it.

If all that needed to be done was mention I spouted empty rhetoric, you would have said "Uncle John's post contains empty rhetoric".

As you have called me a name, and now you are DENYING it, it means I win again, but now doubleplusgood!

Peter3

Uncle John wrote:

if you can't win an argument intellectually, you shouldn't call people names. Because if you do, everyone will see you have lost the argument. If you want to take on any of the points I have made, I will be happy to debate any one.

With all due respect, "intellectually" is not how I would characterize your framing of the issues in your original post, or the original post by justchilling that led us all to this pointless exchange. If there were "points" made anywhere in there, they pretty much all add up to the fact that you don't think there's any difference between the Liberals, Conservatives and NDP.  Absent anything remotely resembling a structured argument to support that "point", I think getting into the spirit of name-calling embodied in your posts and justchilling's introductory obnoxiousness is no more than turn about being fair play.

There are many policies and postions of the various parts of the NDP that do not fit entirely with my view of the world. Some are reflections of the leadership, but most are largely reflections of the nature of parliamentary democracy and Canadian political culture. Ultimately, if things are going to get better, it will be the interplay of partisan politics and civil society activism that will shift the political attitudes of Canadians in progressive ways. It speaks to a serious problem in Canadian political life that so many see these as alternative areas of action, not complementary elements of the larger political equation.

Various people on babble argue that because things have worked out differently for social democrats and democratic socialists in other countries (Sweden keeps coming up) the failing is obviously with the NDP. However, the larger political cultures of these countries are also very different.  I have spent enough time working in other parts of the world to know that many members of both political oganizations and civil society groups in such places find the self-absorption of North American activists wierd and counter-productive.  The problems in nominally progressive Canadian politics are much deeper than the organizational failings of the NDP.

I am involved in the NDP, not because I think it is a perfect embodiment of everything I believe in, but because I believe it is the most consistent exponent of positions that move politics in this country in a direction I can buy into.  If you believe that nothing good can come from parliamentary politcs, so be it.  Otherwise, stop sneering and convince me that there is any serious alternative to the NDP as a vehicle for pushing social change through the electoral process.

remind remind's picture

Lying about it? How so, I stated clearly what your actions were here based upon your posting history, not once but twce. It has absolutely nothing to do with your being human or alien as a matter of fact, and everything to do with your posting history and empty rhetoric.

Uncle John

OK how about the Ontario Liberal Party which raised the minimum wage several times?

How about the federal Conservative party which lowered a regressive tax from 7% to 5%, and brought in the Working Income Tax Benefit?

So yeah. Social change is happening, and the NDP has nothing to do with it.

Bookish Agrarian

Hear Hear Peter

It never ceases to amaze me that some so-called progressive are really, at heart, fundamentally anti-democratic.  In a democratic organization, nation, or what have you the important thing is not that you always get your own way, but that you are able to air your concerns and try to convince others to support your views.  We don't always win.  But only the childish and the churlish beleive that means you should take up your marbles and go home.

I have sometimes been disappointed by the democratic decisions arrived at within the political system, both within a party like the NDP and in the broadest terms.  However, I respect those decisons and support them as being the democratic expression of people once made even if I might disagree with them and continue to work for change.  Posts like the OP and Unlce Johns reminds me that not everyone is sophisticated enough to be democratically responsible to their peers and neighbours.  In the end you are either a democrat or a whiner.  I know which side those who take potshots without backing up a single declaration fall on.

Bookish Agrarian

Uncle John wrote:

OK how about the Ontario Liberal Party which raised the minimum wage several times?

How about the federal Conservative party which lowered a regressive tax from 7% to 5%, and brought in the Working Income Tax Benefit?

So yeah. Social change is happening, and the NDP has nothing to do with it.

Seriously- no really seriously.

Do you think the Liberals would have done anything about the minimum wage without the NDP pushing and the by-election win of Cheri DiNovo.  If you do I would take your head out of your nether regions.

Please tell me one progressive thing about making a Porshe cheaper while diverting that money away from doing something about child poverty, or environmental improvements, or even saving it so that Stepehn could buy a new blue sweater.

If this is the height of your intellectual arguments you might want to get a step ladder.

Peter3

Uncle John wrote:

OK how about the Ontario Liberal Party which raised the minimum wage several times?


You can't be serious.
Uncle John wrote:

How about the federal Conservative party which lowered a regressive tax from 7% to 5%, and brought in the Working Income Tax Benefit?

Jesus wept.

genstrike

remind wrote:
You also do not realize that had you any other government than the NDP, there would have been no tuition freeze for the last 10 years, and tuition would have been higher long ago.

There has been no tuition freeze for the last 10 years.  If I pay the university the amount I was paying when I was in first year, they would be coming back to me for more money.  A lot more.  If one of my buddies who is an international student pays the same amount as he would have paid ten years ago, it wouldn't even be half what the university is asking.  Too many loopholes for anyone to seriously call it a freeze.

remind wrote:
Moreover, Manitoba has the lowest tuition fees for PSE in Canada,

This isn't even true.  It's much lower in Quebec (a province which has never had an NDP government but has had a strong and fairly militant and radical student movement.  Go figure, eh?), and I think it might now be lower in Newfoundland.

remind wrote:
and should you have had any other government than the NDP, this would NOT have been the case either.

Please sir, may I have some more?

The NDP:  marginally better than those scum of the earth evil Whigs N' Tories!

remind wrote:
Your views are extremely short sighted, and not focused accurately.

So, how far down the road will the NDP start actually doing progressive things?  How many times do we have to elect Doer to get anti-scab after he promised the business community he wouldn't bring it in?  Three?  Four?  Five?  When will the NDP get around to lowering tuition instead of promising to keep it the same and then increasing it?  Five years?  Ten?  Twenty?  Fifty?  Obviously my views are too short sighted, but I just want to know from you, who is clearly the only person who sees things in the long run, when the NDP will stop being so fucking useless.  Will tuition be reduced for my future children?  My grandchildren?  Will I see anti-scab legislation before I retire?  Will socialism be on the agenda before I die of old age?  Please, tell me, because you can see how everything works in the long run but I'm just some impatient dumb fucking prairie boy who can't.

remind wrote:
But I guess you are going to have to get a taste of what it is like before you will understand what actual betrayals are.

What do you call it when a government promises to extend the tuition freeze for the next four years, you vote for them and do a little volunteering, and then they eliminate the tuition freeze after two saying the word "extend" was open to interpretation?

Or should I be more specific and say, what do you call it when it is a Liberal government in Ontario, and what do you call it when it is an NDP government in Manitoba?  Because I have a feeling that there are two different answers to those questions.

remind remind's picture

You know genstrike, I asked myself all those questions too when I was younger, and then I entered the real world and startrd to understand the forces which are trying to stop social justice, and how slow social change is because of these forces. Plus much much more, as I am sure you will too.

Women only became humans 80 years ago, and we  ctually never got to start to excercise this right until 20 years ago. And even still today have tremendous fights ahead of us, as we have a long way to go to acheive equality. But do go on and tell us how hard done by you are and how the NDP are not helping your plight, even though you in your province have had the lowest PS tuitions in Canada for over a decade, which would not have happened if had another government in [email protected] :rolleyes: And please do keep ignoring the fact that it was the federal government that gutted 15 billion from PSE transfers to the provinces. @ :rolleyes: more

And I give a rat's ass about how much foreign students have to pay to attend our universities, I think they should have to pay the whole damn load actually, instead of reeping the majority of the subsidies that Canadians get.

Also, I am just a  small town prairie girl originally myself, so don't be thinking what I say has anything to do with your geographic local impeeding your thought processes.

 

 

Uncle John

Flat sales tax hurts the poor the most.

Flat sales tax is regressive, as opposed to "PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE".

People who buy Porsches play plenty of income tax and corporate tax.

One calls me a name and denies it, and another says I have my head in my "nether regions"

ARE ANY OF YOU CAPABLE OF MAKING A POINT WITHOUT HURLING AN INSULT?

The more you insult me, the more I win the argument.

Feels good to be a winner.

It can't feel too good to be you, as you are in such a bad mood. Your party keeps losing...

Bookish Agrarian

Now Uncle John reading for comprehenison would reveal you only have your head in your nether regions if you are so deluded to think that the Liberals would seriously have moved on the minimum wage without the NDP and the by-election win of Cheri DiNovo.  That's not an insult it is in observable empirical exercise.

You see your problem is your smug self-assurance when you clearly don't understand what you are talking about.  Exit that, and I expect you would get different responses.

See for instance there is nothing progressive about a decrease in the sales tax.  Now removing items all together that would have been progressive, but across the board decrease in percentage.  Not progressive - actually quite regressive.  Basic economics.

People who own Porches are no more likely to pay lots in taxes than the working poor.  Our tax system is structured in such a way that those in the upper income brackets are able to access many deductions not available to others.  Sometimes this is simply by having the cash to max out things like their RRSP deductions; sometimes it is through more structural advantages built in.  Your assumption is faulty on the very face of it.

You might think you are 'winning' whatever that sort of childish reference means.  From this viewpoint however, it only seems like you are continuing to reveal your rather stunning ignornance.

theboxman

remind wrote:

And I give a rat's ass about how much foreign students have to pay to attend our universities, I think they should have to pay the whole damn load actually, instead of reeping the majority of the subsidies that Canadians get.

 

Funny that international students should have to pay the same taxes Canadian citizens do, but cannot benefit from any of these contributions, not only in terms of tuition fees but also access to healthcare. All because of the privilege of citizenship status acquired solely by accident of fate. In some places I know -- Japan or Singapore for instance -- public universities come up with extensive programs to not only waive tuition fees for international students, but also to finance their living expenses (tax-free) and language training, precisely because they understand how, through the different perspectives and positionalities they bring into relation, there is an educational and social value in having an international presence within the academic community.

Peter3

Claiming that the NDP had nothing to do with the Ontario Liberals partially capitulating and very slowly bringing in minimum wage increases they had flatly rejected until losing a by-election on the issue is anti-historical and absurd.

The proposition that a couple of debatable tax measures considered in isolation from their overall record somehow add up to a progressive record from the federal Conservatives is just weird.  You are either trolling or...  well that would probably be considered name calling, so let's not go there.

Peter3

remind wrote:

And I give a rat's ass about how much foreign students have to pay to attend our universities, I think they should have to pay the whole damn load actually, instead of reeping the majority of the subsidies that Canadians get.

I think this is a short-sighted position. The international character of post-secondary institutions was one of the most enriching aspects of my student life (to the extent that my failing memory can be relied on to remember anything from that long ago, I suppose).  When I went off to do a degree, way back when, there were no such things as differential fees, and we had no issues with the school being overrun with non-Canadians.  Africa Week was a cultural highlight for the whole school.  As aid programs go, affordable education was cheap.

There seems to be a perception that uniform, low tuition fees mean that rich Americans will crowd out local students and deny Canadians an advanced education. I think that the evidence when they first were brought in was that differential fees were pandering to a right-wing anti-immigrant sentiment, not a response to a real problem. It was, and remains, a political red herring.

Failure to make post-secondary education more affordable is, in fact, one of the areas where NDP governments haver not done as well as they should have.  I agree that much of the problem resides in federal transfers, but it is not the whole story by any stretch.

It has been a long time since I was directly involved in the issue, but I remember being very frustrated by NDP politicians who should have known better who argued that a post-secondary education was mostly an upper-middle class aspiration and not a real issue for typical working Canadians. High tuition fees, and the crippling debt loads required for low-income Canadians to deal with them if they wish to get a degree, are not trivial issues.  Nor is the NDP record in this regard anything to write home about.

Bookish Agrarian

When I was at school the International students did not come from working families. 

Maybe this has changed over the decades but I somehow doubt it. 

This is a repository of the very wealthy (at least in undergrad).  If we really wanted to support higher learning for average or lower income students from abroad we would not be doing it through tuition costs but through direct bursaries and aid.  As it is the vast majority of International students should be paying the costs their families have not supported through their life time of taxes, unlike most other Canadian students.  Otherwise Canadians, including families who could not afford higher education for themselves, would be supporting, in the vast number of cases, students who's families are much more capable of paying the costs.

Or alternatively we could be using our aid budgets to support higher education for average and lower income students in their own nations instead of say giving that money to help reduce the purchase cost of your average Porsche.  That would acheive much higher dividends for nations and communities than exporting students to Canada.

KenS

 

Quote:
The NDP will never have the appeal to win federally.

ottawaobserver wrote:
Now, replace "federally" with "in Nova Scotia" and even I could have uttered those words 20 years ago.  Never is a long time, and whenever people use that word in politics, they're usually due for a big karmic humiliation down the road.

Actually, it was only 12 years ago that we had 3 NDP MLAs. By then, we knew something was up. But just 15 years ago, the NSNDP had inched or stayed the same for 25 years back, and there was then no rational basis for seeing that things were going to be any different.

Peter3

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

When I was at school the International students did not come from working families. 

That depended on the country. I expect that it is much more true now than it was before differential fees came along.

Students from African countries (with whom I was most familiar because of my own connections to the continent) were a mix of privately funded (i.e. relatively well off) and government or foundation sponsored students.  The latter group has been crowded out by differential fees. Bursaries and directed aid could compensate for some of this in theory (but does not, in fact), but the fact remains that differential tuition was a "solution" for a problem that didn't exist.  International student placements have never been a meaningful constraint on accessibility to the system for Canadian students, and they are clearly not the barrier for low-income Canadian students. I imagine that the additional overhead of administering a directed aid program meant to counter the effects of differential fees would pretty much make the relative impact of either approach a wash for low-income overseas students.

For what it's worth, the institutions themselves have been among the biggest obstacles to low-fee or tuition free education.  They love the ability to charge market rates and are well pleased to be able to line their pockets at the expense of an international elite for whom price is no object.

remind remind's picture

Exactly BA!

Cueball Cueball's picture

Peter3 wrote:

Claiming that the NDP had nothing to do with the Ontario Liberals partially capitulating and very slowly bringing in minimum wage increases they had flatly rejected until losing a by-election on the issue is anti-historical and absurd.

The proposition that a couple of debatable tax measures considered in isolation from their overall record somehow add up to a progressive record from the federal Conservatives is just weird.  You are either trolling or...  well that would probably be considered name calling, so let's not go there.

Yeah bit the 10 dollar minimum wage demand is tripe anyway, at least as far a Toronto is concerned. Most labour jobs already pay that. Try 15, if you want to get results, but $10 is just affirming the status quo of what already is the defacto minimum wage. How is that effective? The NDP didn't even assess the real need of people they are so out of touch.

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

and with temp employment agencies now the norm and have been for awhile a lot of ppl dont make min wage effectively because the agency takes off 2 an hour and the ppl get no benefits at all. The NDP aint perfect but it all there is if we split up we risk having less then we started with u can argue that it worth the risk and I agree but it should start off small only try and fight where u know u can win and then move on to other places. NDP needs to be re-tooled and changed defintely but saying it the same as the corporate party is a lie.

 

I got a lot of ideas for how we can re-tool the ndp still appealing to a younger voters and gettin them to vote while at the same time getting older ones wouldnt be really hard (only know for my ways still). Give me a chance n ill do it but I cant yet still

Bookish Agrarian

Cueball wrote:

Peter3 wrote:

Claiming that the NDP had nothing to do with the Ontario Liberals partially capitulating and very slowly bringing in minimum wage increases they had flatly rejected until losing a by-election on the issue is anti-historical and absurd.

The proposition that a couple of debatable tax measures considered in isolation from their overall record somehow add up to a progressive record from the federal Conservatives is just weird.  You are either trolling or...  well that would probably be considered name calling, so let's not go there.

Yeah bit the 10 dollar minimum wage demand is tripe anyway, at least as far a Toronto is concerned. Most labour jobs already pay that. Try 15, if you want to get results, but $10 is just affirming the status quo of what already is the defacto minimum wage. How is that effective? The NDP didn't even assess the real need of people they are so out of touch.

I don't know what fantasy land you are living in, but that is not even close to correct in vast swaths of the service economy, even in the centre of the universe.  And of course you don't seem to care about all the people living outside Toronto who were getting no where near that $10.  The myopia  of some people can be staggering.

Peter3

Cueball wrote:

Most labour jobs already pay that.

Say what?  Tell that to my 19 year old kid who would kill for a job offer at $10 an hour. 

remind remind's picture

:D

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