NDP: Broke and Busted?

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Infosaturated

I once saw a show on a famous ochestra leader who was often a guest conductor.  He said that whenever he stood in front of a new ochestra he first adjusted his conducting to their playing. Then he would change, slowing bringing them to where he wanted to be.  A party more radical than the NDP could never win in Canada right now.  Being a radical revolutionary might be very satisfying and I would never fault someone for following their heart. But, it's unlikely that enough Canadians would buy into a full overthrow of the government within the foreseeable future. I am really not an NDP supporter but of the left-leaning parties that have even a faint hope of taking power federally they are best choice available.

skarredmunkey

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

skarredmunkey wrote:

Doug wrote:

Speaking of being in a babble bubble, I've never heard anyone else outside this site or similar ones claim that the problem with the NDP is that it's insufficiently radical socialist. Certainly never real voters at the doorstep.

Voters at the doorstep tend to say exactly that, but in different words.

Like a lot of people I've knocked on a lot of damn doors in my life.  Not once has someone told me the NDP is not hard line radical socialist enough for them.  Not one single door.

Have you ever campaigned in East Vancouver, downtown Vancouver (the West End and parts of Kitsilano), or Burnaby? Or Ontario after Bob Rae's reign? In the past, I've heard everything from:

  • I'm voting for the Work Less Party
  • I'm voting for the Greens because the NDP have sold out
  • I'm voting for/working for/am the candidate for [insert Communist, Sex, Marijuana or other] party.
  • I'm not voting because all parties are corrupt/greedy
  • I'm not voting because "I don't believe in industrial democracy" (I assumed that this was an anarchist, and they were not talking about European industrial democracy)
  • I AM voting for the NDP but I'm going to hold my nose when I do it.
  • I AM voting for the BC NDP but I don't like their policy on (pick one): their opposition to the carbon tax; their minimum wage policy ($10/hr is too low), etc, etc.
  • I don't vote anymore because the last time I voted (for the NDP) I lost my job.

Of course, few voters use political science lexicon at the door (although I have came across one or two very well-educated voters with whom I had great discussions about everything from political economy to the general rightward shift of both the NDP and Green Parties - sort of awkward when you're campaigning for one of them).

But just because most voters including even leftwing and progressive ones don't identify as "socialists" doesn't mean that that's not the perspective they're coming from.

Debater

skarredmunkey wrote:

 

  • I'm voting for/working for/am the candidate for [insert Communist, Sex, Marijuana or other] party.

The Sex Party is actually a good party to vote for!  If I lived in B.C. I would have voted for them in the B.C. Election last month.  The Sex Party has some very progressive policies for changing antiquated laws and ideas about sex and sexuality.  It is run by John Ince who is a very smart man and who is also a lawyer who has campaigned for changing some of Canada's sexually regressive laws.

ghoris

Yeah, if only we could get those Communist/Marijuana/Sex voters in East Vancouver to see the light and vote NDP - then the NDP could win with 61 percent of the vote instead of just 60! Laughing

 

Edited to add: Doesn't "Communist/Marijuana/Sex" sound like a great name for an anarchist punk band?

Fidel

And we know the Liberals are totally in touch with Ontarians, because there are more than 1.2 million adult workers in Ontario earning anywhere below $10 dollars an hour and contributing to ridiculous numbers of children living anywhere below poverty line in Liberal Ontario. I guess it's easier to believe the Liberal Party bullshit if youre a party member or even a volunteer mouthpiece reciting that party's scripted bullshit. 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Peter3 wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Most labour jobs already pay that.

Say what?  Tell that to my 19 year old kid who would kill for a job offer at $10 an hour. 

That's right. Tell that to your 19 year old daughter who is probably living at home still, and would continue to do so, were it not for family suplements and so on, even if she was making $10 an hour. In other words, $10 an hour is bullshit in the GTA, and you have just proved it. Sure it help out those who can afford to support their kids, or those living on government student grants. But for those people who are single and without support it's bullshit.

Nice that the NDP would be supporting a pay increase that basically supplements the ability of middle class people to help out their kids doing summer jobs in the service industry, but does fuck all for working class people, or single mothers.

They are either making $15 an hour, working under the table and collecting government benefits on the side, or have moved out of the city, or back home, long ago.

remind remind's picture

Cue, it is NOT about just the GTA, why do you not get that?

Fidel

Ya screw the 1, 200, 000 plus adult workers not earning $10 dollars an hour in Ontario. And screw hundreds of thousands of their children living anywhere below poverty.

Good things grow in Liberal Ontario. So does child poverty. Blame the NDP bla bla. What bland rightwing pap! 

Peter3

Cueball wrote:

That's right. Tell that to your 19 year old daughter who is probably living at home still, and would continue to do so, were it not for family suplements and so on, even if she was making $10 an hour. In other words, $10 an hour is bullshit in the GTA, and you have just proved it. Sure it help out those who can afford to support their kids, or those living on government student grants. But for those people who are single and without support it's bullshit.

Nice that the NDP would be supporting a pay increase that basically supplements the ability of middle class people to help out their kids doing summer jobs in the service industry, but does fuck all for working class people, or single mothers.

They are either making $15 an hour, working under the table and collecting government benefits on the side, or have moved out of the city, or back home, long ago.

You know nothing about my personal circumstances, or those of my kids, and the presumption of your comments is as profound as their offensiveness.

For what it's worth, the 19 year old kid of whom you speak does not live under our modest roof, as much we would like him to.  He has struggled academically, dropped out of high school and is struggling to make his way in the world.  You are a pretentious ass.

Fidel

remind wrote:

Cue, it is NOT about just the GTA, why do you not get that?

The working poor all earn $15 dollars an hour or better in Liberal Ontario. It's only middle and upper income families' children working for slave wages.

And child poverty? Pfff! Only the $15 dollar an hour and higher workers have children, or whatever the Liberal Party literature instructs them to think and say

Fidel

Cueball wrote:
They are either making $15 an hour, working under the table and collecting government benefits on the side, or have moved out of the city, or back home, long ago.

People on welfare were encouraged to collect and work min wage or go to school  during the NDP's time, 90-95. The Harrisites changed the rules and threw hundreds of thousands off welfare rolls in the latter half of the decade

And I dont believe McGuilty's crew are any more generous with welfare benefits and rules since 2003. Screw the Liberals, theyre conservatives in disguise.

Cueball Cueball's picture

remind wrote:

Cue, it is NOT about just the GTA, why do you not get that?

We know its not about the GTA. Why don't you get that?  It certainly is not about Kamloops. 

The NDP's $10 an hour is as good as Baird's " fuck off".

Fidel

Why do McGuilty's Liberals want to maintain such a large slave wage labour force in Ontario and the largest numbers of children of any province living anywhere below poverty? Do they have friends in scabby big bizness, or what's the deal?

Cueball Cueball's picture

$10 an hour is also probably livable in Montreal, now that you mention it Fidel. I haven't paid anyone here $10 an hour in the last 5 years. As for the service sector jobs, such a waitering, and so on, $8.75 is suplemented by tips, so its still more than $10.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Peter3 wrote:

Cueball wrote:

That's right. Tell that to your 19 year old daughter who is probably living at home still, and would continue to do so, were it not for family suplements and so on, even if she was making $10 an hour. In other words, $10 an hour is bullshit in the GTA, and you have just proved it. Sure it help out those who can afford to support their kids, or those living on government student grants. But for those people who are single and without support it's bullshit.

Nice that the NDP would be supporting a pay increase that basically supplements the ability of middle class people to help out their kids doing summer jobs in the service industry, but does fuck all for working class people, or single mothers.

They are either making $15 an hour, working under the table and collecting government benefits on the side, or have moved out of the city, or back home, long ago.

You know nothing about my personal circumstances, or those of my kids, and the presumption of your comments is as profound as their offensiveness.

For what it's worth, the 19 year old kid of whom you speak does not live under our modest roof, as much we would like him to.  He has struggled academically, dropped out of high school and is struggling to make his way in the world.  You are a pretentious ass.

Then don't instrumentalize them in your on-line dialogues.

Ask him yourself, if he thinks he could get along on $10 an hour without supplementary income from somewhere. Sure $10 is better than $8 it's still piss in a pot. Basically you are talking about $1200 a month take home pay, in a city where renting an 1 room bachelor that is slightly less than a dungeon $600, that leaves $150 a week for food, $20 a day for whatever else.

Peter3

Cueball wrote:

Then don't instrumentalize them in your on-line dialogues.

Ask him yourself, if he thinks he could get along on $10 an hour without supplementary income from somewhere. Sure $10 is better than $8 it's still piss in a pot.

Don't try to evade responsibility for your offensive commentary by changing the subject. You said that $10 an hour was pretty much the floor for "labour". I indicated that my 19 year old kid would kill for a $10 per hour job.  You made offensive assumptions about my family circumstances and his need. If you are going to be a pretentious ass, at least have the integrity to keep your pejorative negativism in the frame you have established with your own ignorant remarks.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

$10 an hour is also probably livable in Montreal, now that you mention it Fidel. I haven't paid anyone here $10 an hour in the last 5 years. As for the service sector jobs, such a waitering, and so on, $8.75 is suplemented by tips, so its still more than $10.

If you think the $8.75/hr is enough for families to live on, youre out of your mind. That's not even working poor, it's god damn wage slavery. Besides, now the ONDP is calling for $11 dollars per hour by 2011 and $10.25 yesterday.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Fidel wrote:

Cueball wrote:

$10 an hour is also probably livable in Montreal, now that you mention it Fidel. I haven't paid anyone here $10 an hour in the last 5 years. As for the service sector jobs, such a waitering, and so on, $8.75 is suplemented by tips, so its still more than $10.

If you think the $8.75/hr is enough for families to live on, youre out of your mind. That's not even working poor, it's god damn wage slavery. Besides, now the ONDP is calling for $11 dollars per hour by 2011 and $10.25 yesterday.

The NDP is asking for nothing now, indexed for inflation so that it is still nothing in 2011. The market has already established a functional minimum wage at more than $10 an hour.

Fidel

Cueball wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Cueball wrote:

$10 an hour is also probably livable in Montreal, now that you mention it Fidel. I haven't paid anyone here $10 an hour in the last 5 years. As for the service sector jobs, such a waitering, and so on, $8.75 is suplemented by tips, so its still more than $10.

If you think the $8.75/hr is enough for families to live on, youre out of your mind. That's not even working poor, it's god damn wage slavery. Besides, now the ONDP is calling for $11 dollars per hour by 2011 and $10.25 yesterday.

The NDP is asking for nothing now, indexed for inflation so that it is still nothing in 2011. The market has already established a functional minimum wage at more than $10 an hour

Shameful Liberal LLLLIES!

 

The NDP is demanding that no adult workers in Ontario be paid poverty wages.

 

Quote:

[url=http://ontariondp.com/node/2026N]NDP MPP Cheri DiNovo[/url] stated Dalton McGuinty's minimum wage violates Ontarians right to an adequate standard of living.

"The United Nations has stated that current minimum wage and social assistance rates in Ontario contravenes people's right to an adequate standard of livings. It's time Dalton McGuinty recognized that as well and raise the Ontario's minimum wage to a living wage of $10.25 now," said DiNovo.

DiNovo referenced the new Campaign 2000 report released today which found that median wages in the food and accommodation sectors were only about $9.50 an hour and well below the Statistics Canada low-income cut-off for a single person living in a large city.

"The reality is Ontarians can't survive on $8.75 and it needs to be raised to $10.25 an hour now. Hard working women and men deserve a minimum living wage that lifts them out poverty, not one that keeps them there."

 

UN slams Pinocchio and the Liebrals

Fidel

Miserable fucking gutless Liberal [email protected]

Cueball Cueball's picture

They can't live on $10, either, and they don't, not in the GTA. Every person I know who is working for anywhere between $8.75 to $12.00 an hour supplements their income by working under the table while on government assistance, goes to the foodbank, lives at home,  or has a job that pays tips.

Peter3 wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Then don't instrumentalize them in your on-line dialogues.

Ask him yourself, if he thinks he could get along on $10 an hour without supplementary income from somewhere. Sure $10 is better than $8 it's still piss in a pot.

Don't try to evade responsibility for your offensive commentary by changing the subject. You said that $10 an hour was pretty much the floor for "labour". I indicated that my 19 year old kid would kill for a $10 per hour job.  You made offensive assumptions about my family circumstances and his need. If you are going to be a pretentious ass, at least have the integrity to keep your pejorative negativism in the frame you have established with your own ignorant remarks.

You brought him up not me.

I am still waiting for you to report back to me on wether or not he feels he could make ends meat and some on $10? Sounds like he doesn't have a job, fine, so he is on welfare, and comes over to raid the fridge occassionally. $10 is better than not working at all. But mind you, did he come up with a $10 an hour job 40 hours a week, he's still have to raid the fridge, or find some other income somewhere to make anything close to a modestly independent lifestyle.

$10 an hour in the GTA is just the NDP calling for an officially recognized standard of poverty that already exists.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Yes the NDP are exactly that. Pretending that $10 an hour somehow does anything that is not already established by market costs for labour here, a liberal policy, and a false debate.

Fidel

Who's calling for $10 an hour? Not the NDP, you mizzzerable! gutless! fucking Liberal shill!

Someone's going to have to ban me, because I wont back down, and neither will the ONDP back down on fighting for what is considered a basic human right to a minimum standard of living with dignity in so many other countries.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Your just the warden who offers up 125 calories a day on top of 875 and then expects the prisoners to thank him.

Fidel

Fuck the Lieberals! Theyre no better than the uncommon nonsense revolutionaries before them when it comes to slave wage minimums and bare bones welfare rates.

And the asshole deluxes in phony-baloney power at Queen's Perk just awarded themselves another raise. And for what, really? What have they done besides nothing?

 

Fidel

Pinocchio's LIEBERALS TO THE 1.2 million plus adult slave wage earners in  Ontario: Work will make you free!!

Cueball Cueball's picture

And who was before all that? Oh yeah. Bob Rae and the old $6.85 (if you were not a waitress) joke. I remember some fellas I worked with from Nova Scotia who were sucked into coming here to work for that rate, only to discover it was worth shit and everyone else was making $10. The NDP and the minimum wage is an old joke, but a good one. It never seems to get tired.

Cueball Cueball's picture

You offering to come here and work for 10.25 an hour Fidel? Good, send me a PM when next you are seeking employment. I'll even try to find you basement with not to much mold or rats in it -- I hope you don't mind the smell of crack cocaine.

Maysie Maysie's picture

What a productive and lovely thread. NOT.

Closing for length, and if another is started, stay on topic folks.

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