NDP leadership race 2

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Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

brookmere wrote:

I think you completely missed Sean's point, which is that those living in wholly English-speaking communities take it as a given that a major party leader has to be proficient in English, but regard French proficiency as an "issue". That's the real bubble - refusing to look outside your own community.

And my point is that the communities where the majority of Canadians live are multilingual and multi-racial and not wholly English speaking. I am looking at my community and my sons friends. They went to French immersion and after ten years of not speaking French at school they are not fluent speakers. Many do speak Mandarin or Cantonese or Tagalog because they have many opportunities to speak their second language and keep your skills up. But to you and Sean that is not really bilingual that is irrelevant to REAL Canadians. The idea that a person needs to also be able to be fluent in French just reduces the pool of potential candidates down to primarily white Canadian born residents of Central Canada. 

Thanks for all the implications first that I am clueless being a resident of Ottawa, even if I do not work for the government or a government agency and never have, and now that I am racist. You are acting like an ass.

I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever suggested that "real" Canadians have to speak English or French or are white.

APOLOGIZE TO ME NOW

I did not refer to people who speak more than one language as not being bilingual.

APOLOGIZE TO ME NOW

I have never suggested any priority of those living in central Canada

APOLOGIZE TO ME NOW

There is no point that you are making that I did not acknowledge including languages that are not official -- except that your suggestion of equivalency between French and Chinese is definitely a result of some bubble, bigotry or myopia you are suffering from.

Let's unpack this a little and move beyond your stupid suggestion that it is racist not to see these languages as equal -- even forgetting the fact of two official languages spoken not only by those whose mother tongue is one of them but by the majority who speak what Statistics Canada term immigrant languages. We really do need to investigate the stupidity you have engaged in here after all.

Statistics:

As of 2015 more people reported speaking French at home than all other non official languages put together.

Let me repeat that:

As of 2015 more people reported speaking French at home than all other non official languages put together.

63% of those whose first language is neither English nor French speak one of those two official languages AT HOME.

72.8% of people in Quebec speak ONLY French AT HOME.

Some 7 million people report French as their first language while a total of 6.6 million report some other language (all of them combined)

In the rest of Canada 74% of Anglophones speak ONLY English AT HOME

17.5% of Canadians speak both official languages

Now since you want to suggest I am racist, let's compare French, English and Mandarin directly forgetting the issue of history, official languages etc.

Last census

English mother tongue: 18.8 million

French mother tongue: 7 million

Mandarin 248 thousand

Now to be fair many reported Chinese without specifying: 428 thousand

All Chinese together (remembering that many of these language groups do not understand each other) and you barely cross 1 million.

So even if Mandarin was an official language French by the numbers would be about 8 times more important (7 times if you include all Chinese languages together).

APOLOGIZE TO ME NOW

BTW kropotkin1951, I used to respect you.

R.E.Wood

It seems Charlie Angus is getting significant support for his potential run from his constituents and riding association:

The large turnout on Saturday, however, may be indicative of the amount of support that local volunteers are willing to provide.

“Today, I was very moved,” said Angus. “I thought maybe we'd just have the riding association and a few volunteers — but the place was packed, and that feels good.”

When he addressed his supporters that morning, he said that Canada is looking for a leader that will bring progressive change and do more than make empty promises.

When it came to deciding whether that leader is indeed himself, Angus put the question to his supporters to answer.

“Today, I am not set to make an announcement, but if I do this, if we do this, we have to do it together,” he said. “If we're going to do this, I want to know that you're there with me, is that possible? Are we going to do this?”

While there were no words exchanged, his question was met with a standing ovation and a raucous round of applause.

 

http://www.timminspress.com/2017/01/15/charlie-angus-begged-to-run-for-l...

 

oldgoat

Sean, I've read several posts back.  No babble policies broken here, and it's not up to me to tell you how to feel about what's said to you, but I think you're misinterpreting what kropotkin has been saying.  

I'm going to be away from the board for a number of hours so please don't start killing each other.

Sean in Ottawa

oldgoat wrote:

Sean, I've read several posts back.  No babble policies broken here, and it's not up to me to tell you how to feel about what's said to you, but I think you're misinterpreting what kropotkin has been saying.  

I'm going to be away from the board for a number of hours so please don't start killing each other.

Please find an alternate interpretation of this:

"But to you and Sean that is not really bilingual that is irrelevant to REAL Canadians. The idea that a person needs to also be able to be fluent in French just reduces the pool of potential candidates down to primarily white Canadian born residents of Central Canada."

Sean in Ottawa

oldgoat wrote:

Sean, I've read several posts back.  No babble policies broken here, and it's not up to me to tell you how to feel about what's said to you, but I think you're misinterpreting what kropotkin has been saying.  

I'm going to be away from the board for a number of hours so please don't start killing each other.

Started when I said this:

"Interesting and related -- he may not have French but he is authentic and sincere. Language is a real issue and we cannot minimize that."

Which turned into a swipe at me for living in Ottawa.

From there is went into issues of race claiming in a bizarre fashion that speaking French being a preference of non-official languages was me prefering white poeple.

Really I would love to hear a good interpretation of this that is somehow credible.

kropotkin1951

SEAN I APOLOGIZE

There if that is over with I have to agree with OldGoat that you have misinterpreted the intent of my statements. I meant no personal insult to you nor anyone else who lives in Ottawa and other central Canadian cities. 

I don't think language is a real issue and you do. I think that is  our views are related to the where I live and the demographics of the people who live here with me. Last time I looked the pool of people in BC who are unsuitable to lead a national political party because of not being fluently bilingual in both official languages is 93%. The city of Ottawa has a rate of bilingualism of 37%.

I think  regional diferences matter and shape ones view of issues.

NorthReport

Bingo!

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

oldgoat wrote:

Sean, I've read several posts back.  No babble policies broken here, and it's not up to me to tell you how to feel about what's said to you, but I think you're misinterpreting what kropotkin has been saying.  

I'm going to be away from the board for a number of hours so please don't start killing each other.

Started when I said this:

"Interesting and related -- he may not have French but he is authentic and sincere. Language is a real issue and we cannot minimize that."

Which turned into a swipe at me for living in Ottawa.

From there is went into issues of race claiming in a bizarre fashion that speaking French being a preference of non-official languages was me prefering white poeple.

Really I would love to hear a good interpretation of this that is somehow credible.

Rev Pesky

Canada has two official languages. All government business in this country has to be done both in English and French. It is not unreasonable to expect that someone who wishes to lead the government of this country be fluent in both official languages.

Or to put it another way, would it be acceptable for the Prime Minister to be unilingual Francophone?

kropotkin1951

Rev Pesky wrote:

Canada has two official languages. All government business in this country has to be done both in English and French. It is not unreasonable to expect that someone who wishes to lead the government of this country be fluent in both official languages.

Or to put it another way, would it be acceptable for the Prime Minister to be unilingual Francophone?

If there Mandarin or Tagalog was good I wouldn't have a problem  However they would not likely be elected either as leader or as PM so your hypothetical is really not relevant.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

SEAN I APOLOGIZE

There if that is over with I have to agree with OldGoat that you have misinterpreted the intent of my statements. I meant no personal insult to you nor anyone else who lives in Ottawa and other central Canadian cities. 

I don't think language is a real issue and you do. I think that is  our views are related to the where I live and the demographics of the people who live here with me. Last time I looked the pool of people in BC who are unsuitable to lead a national political party because of not being fluently bilingual in both official languages is 93%. The city of Ottawa has a rate of bilingualism of 37%.

I think  regional diferences matter and shape ones view of issues.

Thank you.

Then of course you do this straw man thing. I was supporting the idea that Angus would run. I did not say that he had to be bilingual. I did say it was an issue and was not minimizing that. Saying something is an issue is not the same as saying it is a prerequisite. -- but you went off on where I live and white people and on and on and on.

You also ignore the reality that there is more than one official language and while many in BC speak only one of them there are others in Canada who do not speak the one they speak and still expect to communciate directly with a PM. Hence the issue.

But your straw man is all about claiming that I said anyone would be "unsuitable to lead a national political party because of not being fluently bilingual in both official languages." That is a long way from saying that not being bilingual is an issue. Can you see the difference between your extreme characterization made to win your silly point and what I did say which is that language is an issue?

Now we can disagree about whether language is an issue or not but you do not have a right to suggest that I said fluently bilignual was a prerequisite. If that had been true I would not have said Angus should run.

I do not respect people who have to miuscharacterize the position of someone else in order to win an argument.

We disagreed over your characterization of me, my awareness (bubble etc.) and then what I said. In terms of substance there was none to your dispute with me which is my I became particularly irritated.

This is a common thing on this board. -- People wanting to fight and when nobody is disagreeing with them so they make up some bullshit about someone's position to have their fight. So perhaps you had the insults all ready and just had craft some false disagreement to use them?

So sure, I accept your apology when you stop pretending that I said people have to be fluently bilingual to be PM. I have said language is an issue.

There are people here who think fluency is a requirement -- now why don't you go pick a fight with them rather than someone who has not advanced that position?

 

Sean in Ottawa

Rev Pesky wrote:

Canada has two official languages. All government business in this country has to be done both in English and French. It is not unreasonable to expect that someone who wishes to lead the government of this country be fluent in both official languages.

Or to put it another way, would it be acceptable for the Prime Minister to be unilingual Francophone?

Do we have to continue this farce of pretending that there is nothing between compltely unilingual and fluently bilingual?

If you want to be PM you can become more than unilingual and be very well respected while being less than fluent.

I think language is an issue -- not a prerequisite -- you would have to be a very good candidate not to have any French -- and then you would need to take some intensive lessons to speak -- perhaps not fluently -- in the other language.

My point here is Angus could do that.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Rev Pesky wrote:

Canada has two official languages. All government business in this country has to be done both in English and French. It is not unreasonable to expect that someone who wishes to lead the government of this country be fluent in both official languages.

Or to put it another way, would it be acceptable for the Prime Minister to be unilingual Francophone?

If there Mandarin or Tagalog was good I wouldn't have a problem  However they would not likely be elected either as leader or as PM so your hypothetical is really not relevant.

This is more and more absurd. There are certainly more Mandarin speakers than Tagalog. Tagalog speakers are about a quarter million, Mandarin perhaps half to three quarters of a million. French 7 million. There is a difference. And fewer of those Mandarin and Tagalog speakers do not English than French speakers.

If you are going to make exceptions for languages I would make one for any Indigenous language before Mandarin or Tagalog even if there are fewer speakers of that Indigenous language. Not that either Tagalog or Mandarin are not advantages -- of course they are. Not speaking the other official language is still and issue and the person would be expected to take some lessons.

Parliament works in two language -- that is not just a quaint Ottawa thing -- it is the official business of the nation.

kropotkin1951

Sean I am having a hard time debating this issue with you. Everything I write you think is a personal insult. I did not deliberately try to impugn you. I got the fact that you agree with me that Angus would be suitable because he is working on improving his Ontario high school level French.

I am more responding to the absolutists on this board who claim that a full 82% of Canadians are unqualified to lead a national political party. Outside of Quebec Ottawa  has a high percentage of both official languages speakers. I am trying to have a conversation about the fact that 37% of Ottawa residents can aspire to leadership in our Canadian democracy but only 7% of BC residents can aspire to leadership roles in our nation. 

Quote:

  • In 2011, 17.5% of Canadians, or 5.8 million people, reported being able to conduct a conversation in both English and French, up from the 12.2% recorded 50 years earlier, in 1961.
  • In Canada, the proportion of bilingual people went from 17.7% to 17.5% between 2001 and 2011, even though the number of bilingual people rose continuously.
  • Quebec was the only province in which the rate of bilingualism rose steadily between 2001 and 2011—from 40.8% to 42.6%. In 1961, the rate was 25.5%.
  • In the rest of Canada, the rate of bilingualism went from 10.3% in 2001 to 9.7% in 2011. In 1961, the rate was 6.9%.
  • Between 2001 and 2011, the lack of growth in bilingualism outside Quebec occurred as the non‑Francophone immigrant population was growing and the proportion of students in French-as-a-second-language (FSL) programs was shrinking.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-006-x/2013001/article/11795-eng.htm

 

 

brookmere

kropotkin1951 wrote:
I am trying to have a conversation about the fact that 37% of Ottawa residents can aspire to leadership in our Canadian democracy but only 7% of BC residents can aspire to leadership roles in our nation.

That's not a fact at all. 100% of adult Canadians can aspire to leadership. But well under 1% have a hope in hell of getting there, because there are a whole range of qualities required of a successful leader of a Canadian political party.

That's what's wrong with your argument. You are treating language skills as some sort of unique obstacle barring people from seeking leadership, when there is no formal requirement for them, just as there is no forrmal requirement for the other qualities required to succeed. And many of those quallities are simply due to luck, rather than being a skill that can be learned.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean I am having a hard time debating this issue with you. Everything I write you think is a personal insult. I did not deliberately try to impugn you. I got the fact that you agree with me that Angus would be suitable because he is working on improving his Ontario high school level French.

I am more responding to the absolutists on this board who claim that a full 82% of Canadians are unqualified to lead a national political party. Outside of Quebec Ottawa  has a high percentage of both official languages speakers. I am trying to have a conversation about the fact that 37% of Ottawa residents can aspire to leadership in our Canadian democracy but only 7% of BC residents can aspire to leadership roles in our nation. 

Quote:

  • In 2011, 17.5% of Canadians, or 5.8 million people, reported being able to conduct a conversation in both English and French, up from the 12.2% recorded 50 years earlier, in 1961.
  • In Canada, the proportion of bilingual people went from 17.7% to 17.5% between 2001 and 2011, even though the number of bilingual people rose continuously.
  • Quebec was the only province in which the rate of bilingualism rose steadily between 2001 and 2011—from 40.8% to 42.6%. In 1961, the rate was 25.5%.
  • In the rest of Canada, the rate of bilingualism went from 10.3% in 2001 to 9.7% in 2011. In 1961, the rate was 6.9%.
  • Between 2001 and 2011, the lack of growth in bilingualism outside Quebec occurred as the non‑Francophone immigrant population was growing and the proportion of students in French-as-a-second-language (FSL) programs was shrinking.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-006-x/2013001/article/11795-eng.htm

Great we agree on something I am having a hard time debating with you. I simply can see no rationale for these posts of yours.

You now admit that I was not saying what you attacked me for saying -- thanks I guess.

Now that we have covered that I was not of the opinion you were trying to say I was, you are back to making it about Ottawa while combining this with a position that you recognize I do not hold.

For the whateverth time, I think language is an issue. I think most people recognize this. Some debate extremes that you have already acknowledged I do not subscribe to. I don't agree with either the extreme that a person has to be completely fluently bilingual nor do I agree that language is a non issue. I do think bilingualism is a tremendous asset and when the second language is the other official language all the better -- becuase it is a big deal. I think that a person should speak both languages in that role -- I don't think they have to speak it  perfectly well. I also think there is a double standard from Anglophones who say language is not an issue -- so long as the person speaks English perfectly.

Now as for the bilingualism rate of Ottawa giving the people of this city a big advantage, I am open to discussing this. How many PMs have come from Ottawa? Must be many. Name a few.

 

kropotkin1951

Quote:

what you attacked me for

with a position that you recognize I do not hold

Sean go fight with someone else. You are are impossible to debate with when you get a bee in your bonnett. If you would stop impugning motivations and intent top my posts it would be easier. Your average at guessing my intent and my motivation in this thread is well below a failing grade. I neither intentionally attacked you nor did I recognize something as a position you don't hold and then try to say it was yours. 

 

 

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Quote:

what you attacked me for

with a position that you recognize I do not hold

Sean go fight with someone else. You are are impossible to debate with when you get a bee in your bonnett. If you would stop impugning motivations and intent top my posts it would be easier. Your average at guessing my intent and my motivation in this thread is well below a failing grade. I neither intentionally attacked you nor did I recognize something as a position you don't hold and then try to say it was yours. 

 

 

I have commented on what you said not your motives I have no clue as to why you did this -- all the people with strong opinions opposite yours and you went after me... weird. And you talk about me having a bee in my bonnet yet you were the one who came out trying to make my opinion about Ottawa when you could not really seem to even get straight exactly what opinion you were attacking -- except it was big bad Ottawa.

 

Stockholm

Note to anyone who thinks the NDP can "get away with' having a leader who speaks little or no French - take a look at what a train wreck the CPC leadership contest has become with the vast majority of the 13 (14 now with O'Leary) speaking little or no French. They had a French language debate last night that was a national embarrassment and the Quebec media is already treating the whole CPC contest as either a joke or an actual insult to francophones across Canada. To be blunt, even so-called top-tier candidates like Leitch and Raitt and Scheer speak French like my ass chews gum and they have no business even running.

The NDP should look at this horrific Tory example and do everything possible to avoid having the NDP leadership contest degenerate into an object of ridicule in French the way the Tory contest has. Bear in mind that Quebec is MUCH more mor eimportant to the NDP (16 out of 44 MPs) than it is to the Tories (12 out of 99).

wage zombie

Paul Dewar's embarassing French was a low point of the last leadership race.

Sean in Ottawa

Positions on things important to Quebec matter -- so too is the interest and willingness to engage Quebec.

All this depends on how you define little French. A candidate with a little French that needs work could earn respect although there would have to be a demonstrable effort to reach out and that is more than just language skills. The Conservatives hve a history of being tone deaf to Quebec in both official languages.

Rev Pesky

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Rev Pesky wrote:

Canada has two official languages. All government business in this country has to be done both in English and French. It is not unreasonable to expect that someone who wishes to lead the government of this country be fluent in both official languages.

Or to put it another way, would it be acceptable for the Prime Minister to be unilingual Francophone?

Do we have to continue this farce of pretending that there is nothing between compltely unilingual and fluently bilingual?

If you want to be PM you can become more than unilingual and be very well respected while being less than fluent.

I think language is an issue -- not a prerequisite -- you would have to be a very good candidate not to have any French -- and then you would need to take some intensive lessons to speak -- perhaps not fluently -- in the other language.

My point here is Angus could do that. 

I admit that when I used the term 'fluent', I did it with some trepidation. After all, 'fluent' is a subjective term. Perhaps I should have said 'easily able to communicate', which would have wider parameters.

However on the basic point, I do believe the head of the government should be able to communicate in both official languages.

By the way, I see Trudeau got in trouble for answering in French questions posed in English in a town-hall meeting in Sherbrooke. Which kind of answers the question about whether a prime minster could be unilingual Francophone.

 

Sean in Ottawa

Rev Pesky wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Rev Pesky wrote:

Canada has two official languages. All government business in this country has to be done both in English and French. It is not unreasonable to expect that someone who wishes to lead the government of this country be fluent in both official languages.

Or to put it another way, would it be acceptable for the Prime Minister to be unilingual Francophone?

Do we have to continue this farce of pretending that there is nothing between compltely unilingual and fluently bilingual?

If you want to be PM you can become more than unilingual and be very well respected while being less than fluent.

I think language is an issue -- not a prerequisite -- you would have to be a very good candidate not to have any French -- and then you would need to take some intensive lessons to speak -- perhaps not fluently -- in the other language.

My point here is Angus could do that. 

I admit that when I used the term 'fluent', I did it with some trepidation. After all, 'fluent' is a subjective term. Perhaps I should have said 'easily able to communicate', which would have wider parameters.

However on the basic point, I do believe the head of the government should be able to communicate in both official languages.

By the way, I see Trudeau got in trouble for answering in French questions posed in English in a town-hall meeting in Sherbrooke. Which kind of answers the question about whether a prime minster could be unilingual Francophone.

 

All good and fair.

There is a middle ground between French does not matter and fluency is required.

This is not new and we have had this issue for years.

Even a co-leadership between one Anglo and one French speaker require at least one of them to be bilingual to speak with the other.

Rev Pesky

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
...Even a co-leadership between one Anglo and one French speaker require at least one of them to be bilingual to speak with the other.

This definitely put a smile on my face. It reminded me of that old gag on 'Get Smart', the Cone of Silence.

The portable cone of silence

A dual leadership is not such a bad idea. The Romans did it.

kropotkin1951

Rev Pesky wrote:

By the way, I see Trudeau got in trouble for answering in French questions posed in English in a town-hall meeting in Sherbrooke. Which kind of answers the question about whether a prime minster could be unilingual Francophone.

Sorry those are apples and oranges not the same at all. Trudeau speaks both official languages fluently but refused to speak to a citizen in their language when asked a question in a public forum. If we followed Trudeau's lead no question put to a politician in French would be answered in French except in the province of Quebec, after all the majority of the people in those forums don't speak French. 

He is an arrogant asshole and that was one of the most arrogant things he has done to date, that is where his trouble arises.

I agree with Sean and have noted above it is about respect for the people of Quebec as well as other regions of the country more than language skills. Trudeau's actions were disrespectful.

 

Debater

Yeah, Trudeau made a mess of things at the Sherbrooke Town Hall he was hosting.

He should have answered the woman's question in the language in which she asked it.

He has at least now acknowledged that he should have answered her in English, so hopefully he has learned something from it.

kropotkin1951

Debater wrote:

Yeah, Trudeau made a mess of things at the Sherbrooke Town Hall he was hosting.

He should have answered the woman's question in the language in which she asked it.

He has at least now acknowledged that he should have answered her in English, so hopefully he has learned something from it.

Given the nature of the crowd he should have answered her in English and then repeated her question in French and answered it in French as well.

jjuares

Debater wrote:

Yeah, Trudeau made a mess of things at the Sherbrooke Town Hall he was hosting.

He should have answered the woman's question in the language in which she asked it.

He has at least now acknowledged that he should have answered her in English, so hopefully he has learned something from it.


He prefaced his answer with a comment about because he was in Quebec he would answer in French. I believe this wasn't a slip of the tongue but political calculation at work. Generally the Liberals have the anglophone vote sewn up so they believe that their only vulnerability in Quebec is with the Francophones so he was trying to emphasize that. Also he has taken hits for his sloppy French at times so again this was an opportunity for him to reinforce his French credentials. The anglophnes may be angry but they won't desert the Liberals and French speakers may be impressed by his actions. Not only is there no political damage here but it may turn out to be a small gain for Trudeau.

Debater

Yes, the Liberals made a breakthrough in Francophone Quebec in the 2015 Election by winning the majority of Quebec seats, so perhaps Trudeau and his team are making a political calculation that they want to maintain their new foothold.

Sean in Ottawa

Debater wrote:

Yes, the Liberals made a breakthrough in Francophone Quebec in the 2015 Election by winning the majority of Quebec seats, so perhaps Trudeau and his team are making a political calculation that they want to maintain their new foothold.

A stupid one.

Anglophones were heavy Liberal supporters. Trudeau should have done what Krop said and translated. By expressing a disdain for bilingualism he made a grave error. Bilingualism for the Feds is about the Federal Government responding to you in the language of your choice. Quebec has a language law that affects language in the workplace and certainly prepared materials. It does not prescribe that a person answer in French to an Anglophone asking a direct question. I used to live in Quebec and did so during very emotional times with a PQ government. I never saw them behave in such a way and I have a few times engaged with them with Anglophones. Even the BQ responded to people I knew in English when they spoke English. For my part, I mostly addressed them in French but for me that was also about respect.

This is not about Trudeau learning politics this is about him not really having a connection to language minorities and understading the issues.

jjuares

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Debater wrote:

Yes, the Liberals made a breakthrough in Francophone Quebec in the 2015 Election by winning the majority of Quebec seats, so perhaps Trudeau and his team are making a political calculation that they want to maintain their new foothold.

A stupid one.

Anglophones were heavy Liberal supporters. Trudeau should have done what Krop said and translated. By expressing a disdain for bilingualism he made a grave error. Bilingualism for the Feds is about the Federal Government responding to you in the language of your choice. Quebec has a language law that affects language in the workplace and certainly prepared materials. It does not prescribe that a person answer in French to an Anglophone asking a direct question. I used to live in Quebec and did so during very emotional times with a PQ government. I never saw them behave in such a way and I have a few times engaged with them with Anglophones. Even the BQ responded to people I knew in English when they spoke English. For my part, I mostly addressed them in French but for me that was also about respect.

This is not about Trudeau learning politics this is about him not really having a connection to language minorities and understading the issues.


Well, I don't believe that what he did was right but I do believe politically there is no damage.

Rev Pesky

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
...This is not about Trudeau learning politics this is about him not really having a connection to language minorities and understading the issues.

This is not strictly speaking a 'minority language' issue. French is an official language in Canada, minority or no. Certainly it is not a minority language in Quebec.

But perhaps you meant the minority language is English. It is certainly a minorty language in Quebec, but a minority language with a difference. For much of the history of Quebec, English was the language of work, and if you wanted to get ahead in the business world, you had to learn English.

In any case, compare this fooferaw with the muted response to the unilingual pretenders to the Conservative throne. Apparently even in Quebec unilingual English is more acceptable than unilingual French.

kropotkin1951

jjuares wrote:

Well, I don't believe that what he did was right but I do believe politically there is no damage.

I think that in the short term you may be right. However since I was around for his father I see a recurring pattern. His arrogance is beginning to show and once it becomes a trait he is tagged with his days are numbered. 

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Given the nature of the crowd he should have answered her in English and then repeated her question in French and answered it in French as well.

I'm not being facetious when I say that that's Solomonesque.

Too late for him now, though.

jjuares

kropotkin1951 wrote:

jjuares wrote:

Well, I don't believe that what he did was right but I do believe politically there is no damage.

I think that in the short term you may be right. However since I was around for his father I see a recurring pattern. His arrogance is beginning to show and once it becomes a trait he is tagged with his days are numbered. 


To me his arrogance is very much on display already. It occurs to me though most people haven't seen it yet and may never see it.

Debater

kropotkin1951 wrote:

jjuares wrote:

Well, I don't believe that what he did was right but I do believe politically there is no damage.

I think that in the short term you may be right. However since I was around for his father I see a recurring pattern. His arrogance is beginning to show and once it becomes a trait he is tagged with his days are numbered. 

Pierre Trudeau was Prime Minister for 15 years and is the 3rd longest-serving Prime Minister, so if Justin takes after his father then he's got a few more years left in him!

Wilf Day

kropotkin1951 wrote:

mark_alfred wrote:

Quote:

I looked but could not find any clips of Caron in English. 

http://www.cpac.ca/en/programs/beyond-politics/episodes/21828270

Well after listening to that I wonder why you think his accent would be any problem at all. It is obvious that his first language is French but his enunciation is good and he is not in anyway difficult to understand.


I started this discussion, but I never said his accent would be a problem. I like Guy Caron a lot.

What I asked was "is he more engaging in French than in English?" I have seen him speak in French on CPAC, and I felt he was probably more appealing in French. In other words, I felt he would be a really good leadership candidate if his appeal in English was the same as in French.

And I asked if some francophones could tell me if I am correct. 

If so, then he needs to make his English less guarded.

Difficult, when he has been functionally bilingual for 25 years, and there is nothing wrong with his English. Just that there could be more right with it. In which case, he needs to take a course that may not even exist -- not an accent reduction class, but some sort of English public speaking course? 

Wilf Day

Duplicate post.

jjuares

Debater wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

jjuares wrote:

Well, I don't believe that what he did was right but I do believe politically there is no damage.

I think that in the short term you may be right. However since I was around for his father I see a recurring pattern. His arrogance is beginning to show and once it becomes a trait he is tagged with his days are numbered. 

Pierre Trudeau was Prime Minister for 15 years and is the 3rd longest-serving Prime Minister, so if Justin takes after his father then he's got a few more years left in him!


Well being arrogant may be one trait they share. But before he entered politics one of these two had established himself as an intellectual giant and the other is of course Justin. I understand the source of Pierre's arrogance, there were very few rooms he entered in which he wasn't the brightest person in the room. In Justin's case his arrogance comes across as pure narcissism. It is irrelevant what he accomplishes we should just love him because he is Justin.

kropotkin1951

Debater wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

jjuares wrote:

Well, I don't believe that what he did was right but I do believe politically there is no damage.

I think that in the short term you may be right. However since I was around for his father I see a recurring pattern. His arrogance is beginning to show and once it becomes a trait he is tagged with his days are numbered. 

Pierre Trudeau was Prime Minister for 15 years and is the 3rd longest-serving Prime Minister, so if Justin takes after his father then he's got a few more years left in him!

The best left wing government the country had was when Trudeau lost his majority in 1972 that Trudeamania gave him in '68 and had to rely on the NDP for support. 

kropotkin1951

jjuares wrote:

Well being arrogant may be one trait they share. But before he entered politics one of these two had established himself as an intellectual giant and the other is of course Justin. I understand the source of Pierre's arrogance, there were very few rooms he entered in which he wasn't the brightest person in the room. In Justin's case his arrogance comes across as pure narcissism. It is irrelevant what he accomplishes we should just love him because he is Justin.

I agree completely and in the day while I thought Pierre was arrogant I also thought some of his disdain for other politicians was warranted. However his patrician disregard of lesser beings is what I think Justin learnt growing up in the lap of luxury and attending elite schools with other scions of the rich and powerful.

I think Justin learnt his lesson on how to deal with the uppity commoners from a holiday train trip to BC when his Daddy gave the locals the Salmon Arm Salute.

Sean in Ottawa

Rev Pesky wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
...This is not about Trudeau learning politics this is about him not really having a connection to language minorities and understading the issues.

This is not strictly speaking a 'minority language' issue. French is an official language in Canada, minority or no. Certainly it is not a minority language in Quebec.

But perhaps you meant the minority language is English. It is certainly a minorty language in Quebec, but a minority language with a difference. For much of the history of Quebec, English was the language of work, and if you wanted to get ahead in the business world, you had to learn English.

In any case, compare this fooferaw with the muted response to the unilingual pretenders to the Conservative throne. Apparently even in Quebec unilingual English is more acceptable than unilingual French.

I agree that English in Quebec is not the biggest concern here when it comes to minority languages -- having lived there I can certainly attest to the fact that English does better there than French in other provinces. The issue is the PM understanding minority language issues in the context of Francophone minorities across the rest of Canada and the need for the Federal Government to acknowledge them.

R.E.Wood

"Angus moves into second phase of possible NDP leadership campaign"

The "unnerving" inauguration of President Donald Trump speaks to why it is necessary to build a national political movement in Canada that offers a positive reason to get involved, Angus said.

"Trump was a political shock to the world and to see the number of people marching and young women marching is really inspiring," he said.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/2017/01/22/angus-moves-into-second-p...

 

R.E.Wood

And a story about the possibility of Guy Caron running, with an announcement coming "after February 8"...

“I’m talking to people, I’m reaching out to see if they’d be interested in helping me,” says Caron. But there’ll be no announcement until after February 8. That’s when his private member’s bill goes to committee. His bill would make it easier for parents to transfer a small farm or fishing company to children.

...

Caron offers a story, a strategy and a political vision. His candidacy would deserve close attention from New Democrats.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/01/22/story-strategy-and-political-vision...

 

R.E.Wood

Here's a link to Charlie Angus' new website:

http://www.charlieangusndp.ca

 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

That surely does look like the web site of a man who is going to run. I think the only thing that might stop him is if the response to this is very poor. If plenty of NDPers volunteer for his campaign, he's in.

By the way, as a software developer I usually take a quick look at the source code for web sites. Interestingly, it seems that this one was built using the cloud based dev platform, Wix. It uses lots of javascript, and very little else, an architecture which I think is pretty close to optimal these days.

R.E.Wood

The date of the first leadership debate has been announced: March 12 in Ottawa.

"NDP schedule March leadership debate despite having no official candidates for Mulcair’s job"

...

B.C. MP Peter Julian is the only person formally registered with Elections Canada as a candidate, but he hasn’t yet announced a final decision on whether he will actually run. Ontario MP Charlie Angus is also in the process of gathering support for a potential bid. Rumours persist that Québec MP Guy Caron, Manitoba MP Niki Ashton and the deputy leader of the Ontario NDP, Jagmeet Singh, are also considering a run.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/ndp-schedule-...

 

cco

Angus personally confirmed he was running, to me and a small group of others, at the Section Québec convention all the way back in October. Peter Julian was working the same crowds, only a few feet away, and they were studiously avoiding making eye contact. I do wonder what the point of all the phony war stuff is. Does a formal declaration trigger new financial disclosure rules?

josh

Sid Ryan mulling a bid.

 

http://linkis.com/theglobeandmail.com/EH9fq

 

Mighty Middle

Olivia Chow said her lack of french is the reason she is NOT putting her name forward in this leadership race

“Jack spent a lot of time building up the Quebec team and the caucus and the connection with the Québécois,” Ms. Chow said, “so I think it is really important to have someone who is a lot more fluent than what I can do.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ex-union-leader-sid-ryan-co...

 

mark_alfred

I have no problem with Sid Ryan.  He's passionate and honest, and is willing to admit mistakes he's made in the past.  So, I feel he's a decent guy.  But the current group who advocate for him on social media are the most obnoxious people I've ever had the misfortune of interacting with.

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