Palestine: Where is the parliamentary left?

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lagatta

Brava, Maria!

I was very relieved that she was narrowly re-elected in Ahuntsic. Unfortunately Vivian Barbot was not as fortunate, and lost to twerp Trudeau.

Martin, has this been published anywhere? Can it be sent round, to the Coalition for example?

Stockholm

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to know if there are any theories as to why the BQ is so reluctant to take a position on the situation in the Middle East. In the case of the NDP and Liberals, its understandable that this issue is a bit of a minefield. Public opinion in English Canada tends to be very divided in terms of whether people are more pro-Israel or pro-Arab, there are significant constituencies in both parties who would be upset if either party was seen as being "anti-Israel" etc...

But, none of these considerations apply to the Bloc Quebecois. Public opinion in francophone Quebec (to the extent that anyone cares) tends to be much more pro-Arab (let's face it a lot of the ADQ-voting rightwing crowd in rural Quebec probably isn't sure who they hate more - Jews or Arabs), the BQ gets ZERO support from the Jewish community (or from any non-francophones), but they could conceivably get more support from the large Arab population in Montreal if they took a harder line.

So what stops Duceppe from addressing pro-Palestinian rallies and leading the charge against Israel. I'm not saying that i personally want him to do that - but what has he got to lose by doing - compared to what he has to gain?

On a similar note, I've also never understood why the BQ has been quite supportive of the war in Afghanistan and has never supported any NDP resolutions calling for an immediate pull-out - even though Quebecers are almost unanimously anti-war.

 What gives?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Cueball wrote:

Yes, I see, But my point was that it kind of sounds like he is saying the occupation is legitimate because it is "recognized" by the UN, if you see what I am saying.

Which is reinforced by the fact that nowhere does he call for an end to that occupation. This is the crucial wedge issue that all public political declarations should be measured against. So far very few have been satisfactory. 

lagatta

The large Arab population here is mostly francophone (second language, spoken very, very well in general), and the Bloc gets considerable immigrant support in ridings such as Papineau and Ahuntsic, but among groups that speak French as a second language. (Or first, in the case of the more urban, educated, upper-middle-class Haitians who speak more French than Creole).

ZERO support from the Jewish community is rather exaggerated, but it is true that not even French-speaking Jews tend to vote Bloc.

Stockholm

so Lagatta - do you have any theory as to why the BQ is so reluctant to take any positions on foreign policy issues that would be very popular with the overwhelming majority of Quebecers? Is there some secret "Zionist cabal" in the BQ that is behind it?

lagatta

How should I know? I've never belonged to the Bloc. Actually I know several current and former Bloc MPs, including Gilles Duceppe (organised unions alongside him at the CSN) but I rarely exchange more than pleasantries with them. I am thinking of writing to Pierre Paquette, whom I've known for most of our lives, in hopes he will speak up on this issue.

I don't put much stock in secret cabals (and would avoid using that term to describe a group where there may be many Jews, though of course Jews I know would); Zionist groups have always been very open about lobbying for their positions.

I do know that Thomas Mulcair, the only NDP MP in Québec, has never been precisely progressive on this issue. Hoping he gets some pressure from his riding association.

Stockholm

I was being sarcastic when i referred to "secret cabals". The only theory I have ever heard is that the BQ/PQ tries at all cost to appear to be a mainstream political movement and thnks that it refelcts badly on the nationalist movement if they start to look like Pierre Bourgault and the RIN yelling into megaphones in the 60s - as a result they tend to avoid taking any "populist" positions on foreign policy.

Fidel

There is no government in Ottawa! We're home alone, and someone should call the authorities on Harper for abandoning his obligations. 

saga saga's picture

Max Bialystock wrote:

Slumberjack wrote:
While it is nice to see the winds from the street belatedly filling the sails of individual NDP MPs, it would be nicer still to see those sentiments reflected through statements by the leader. If the trend continues, I suppose we can eventually look forward to seeing some revised commentary. Better late than never. By the way, where is Jack Layton these days?

He certainly stayed away from the rallies against the Israeli assault on Gaza. He has no problem going to CJPAC dinners though.

 

Aha! Here he is!

Separately, Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff and Jack Layton, leader
of the New Democratic Party, met over coffee for more than an hour
Tuesday to discuss the upcoming session of Parliament, the budget and
the opposition coalition.

">http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=1173435[/u]

 

The whole damned bunch of them, primping for their bombastic return to the airwaves.

Pretending that children aren't being slaughtered ... or that it isn't as important as they are.

Damn the lot of them! Yell Damn them to hell!

Lily-livered
chicken shit corporate toadies every last one!

">http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/570481[/u]

THERE IS NO 'LEFT' IN CANADIAN PARLIAMENT!

 

Oh btw ... I heard that one renegade NDP MP spoke out against Israel's holocaust against Gaza too.

I wonder if Jack supported him ... or silenced him? hmm?

He hasn't been heard from since. hmm!

saga saga's picture

I haven't noticed the sky falling from their departure.

 

I vote we suspend their salaries and see how we manage without them. I'll bet we don't even notice!

lily-livered chicken-shit cowards and buffoons every damned one of them!

 That's imo, of course. 

Fidel

Ours is the only country of 47 to have voted in favour of Israel in the current crisis sitation.

And Canada lost 100,000 jobs so far on Harper's watch.

He needs to go.

saga saga's picture

Fidel wrote:

Ours is the only country of 47 to have voted in favour of Israel in the current crisis sitation.

And Canada lost 100,000 jobs so far on Harper's watch.

He needs to go.

We all know Harper is hopeless. so why isn't the 'left' speaking up on Gaza's behalf?

The topic of the thread is 'where is the left?'

And my answer to that is ... we do not have one. 

 

Fidel

Okay we dont have one.  None of the NDP have said a single word about it. None except for statements by Layton Atamenko, Masse, Byers and several others.

But its a stooge-off with Harper right now. The Harpers still have all of their heads up Crazy George II's as well as the Israelis' derrieres. Harper's head is so far up Dubya's arse that they have to pump air to him.

I dont like Harper and would like very much if he was encouraged to go quietly, and give someone else a chance at governing. Because apparently Harper doesnt want the job.

saga saga's picture

Fidel wrote:

Okay we dont have one. None of the NDP have said a single word about it. None except for statements by Layton Atamenko, Masse, Byers and several others.

But its a stooge-off with Harper right now. The Harpers still have all of their heads up Crazy George II's as well as the Israelis' derrieres. Harper's head is so far up Dubya's arse that they have to pump air to him.

I dont like Harper and would like very much if he was encouraged to go quietly, and give someone else a chance at governing. Because apparently Harper doesnt want the job.

As far as I'm concerned, Harper and Bush are both dead issues, and certainly off topic for this thread.

Are you the designated thread derailer?

The thread topic is ... PALESTINE: WHERE IS THE CANADIAN PARLIAMENTARY LEFT?

Ok I'll bite ... remind me of Jack's statement on Gaza ... I think I remember ... he said ... hark! ... ABOUT THE SAME THING AS HARPER AND IGNATIEFF!

'Hamas must cease and desist'

ie, ... Gazans are the terrorists

At least that's what I got out of it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong ... but frankly this has been my experience on other issues as well ...

And ... I remain unchallenged ... ?

THERE IS NO 'LEFT' IN CANADIAN PARLIAMENT !

There is fluster and bluster, mostly off topic, but all Canadian politicians toe the corporate line, imo. 

Now someone please explain to me why the NDP is silent about the massacre in Gaza?

?

 

Stockholm

Its not a "right/left" issue. There is a conflict in the Middle East between two ethnic groups over a piece of land. There are people on all sides of the political spectrum who are on one side or the other or are neutral. Similarly, there is no official "leftwing position" on whether to be pro-India or pro-Pakistan when it comes to Kashmir or on what position to take on the Turkish occupation of nothern Cyprus.

Fidel

No Harper and Ignatieff both said that Israel has quote-unquote, a right to defend itself.

And if you dont know what Layton or Atamenko or the other NDPers have said about it, then why are you going off like this? Because knowing what was actually stated might be an exercise in understanding what you yourself are posting before you even post it.

It seems most of this exercise in lambasting the left is merely jumping to conclusions.

And lastly, THERE IS NO CANADIAN PARLIAMENT PERIOD!

The Harpers dont wanna work - they just wanna bang on the drums all day...

saga saga's picture

Fidel wrote:

No Harper and Ignatieff both said that Israel has quote-unquote, a right to defend itself.

And if you dont know what Layton or Atamenko or the other NDPers have said about it, then why are you going off like this? Because knowing what was actually stated might be an exercise in understanding what you yourself are posting before you even post it.

It seems most of this exercise in lambasting the left is merely jumping to conclusions.

And lastly, THERE IS NO CANADIAN PARLIAMENT PERIOD!

The Harpers dont wanna work - they just wanna bang on the drums all day...

I do know the gist of what they said, as above, and no one has refuted it.

They have not called for an end to the blockade of Gaza.

I didn't start the thread ... but 'parliamentarian' is a sick joke at present, I agree. But surely we still have the people elected to those positions? surely we are still paying them?

(Not to split hairs, but methinks you do.)

So ... is that the best excuse of the 'left' for not denouncing the ongoing massacre of civilians in Gaza? 'There is no parliament'?

It's fine for everyone to denounce and be horrified by the violence against families in Gaza, in other threads, but we can't actually demand that our self-identified 'leftish' politicians speak out?

What's up with that?

 

martin dufresne

lagatta asked, of Maria Mourani's statement:

"Martin, has this been published anywhere? Can it be sent round, to the Coalition for example?"

It has been published on the Netfemes list and on the vigile.net website, at least. Circulate it to your heart's content.

martin dufresne

Stockholm went: "Public opinion in francophone Quebec (to the extent that anyone cares) tends to be much more pro-Arab (let's face it a lot of the ADQ-voting rightwing crowd in rural Quebec probably isn't sure who they hate more - Jews or Arabs)"

Stockholm, you're talking through the part of yourself where the sun don't shine, again... but hey, what would Babble be without that periodic regurgitation of anti-French Quebec sentiment?!

saga saga's picture

Are you sure you are in the right thread martin?

 

Fidel

saga wrote:
I do know the gist of what they said, as above, and no one has refuted it.

Well I guess you win then. Carry on in large font, because there's no stopping you.

saga saga's picture

Fidel wrote:

saga wrote:
I do know the gist of what they said, as above, and no one has refuted it.

Well I guess you win then. Carry on in large font, because there's no stopping you.

 

It's a sad statement. Believe me, it gives me no great pleasure to be correct in this.

 

 

Fidel

And thanks for correcting us. I guess you told us. We wont check what was actually said either, because we have it from the horse's mouth.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

saga wrote:

Are you sure you are in the right thread martin?

 

Yes he is, look at post #102 and calm down a bit please, you're worrying me but way to push the issue.  :)

saga saga's picture

oooooo... the ndp attack dogs are out tonight!

 Hit a nerve did I?

GOOD! 

Now let's all go back to the thread about Gaza and be horrified again ... and helpless even to get our own politicians to be even a little bit outraged.

Let's all go back to being good corporateCanada sheep! baa 

Fidel

New Democrat statement on the situation in the Middle East

Quote:
Canada's New Democrats condemn the unacceptable escalation of violence in the Middle East causing death and injury to so many civilians in the Gaza Strip and Israel.

It is a tragedy that hundreds of civilians have again become the victims of violence in this conflict. The continuing airstrikes by Israel on civilians in the Gaza strip and the ongoing rocket attacks on Israeli civilians are serving to compound the existing civilian disaster and further harm chances for a negotiated peace.

We call on the Government of Canada to immediately call for an end to the aerial bombing of Gaza, the blockade of aid to civilians and the indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel. Indeed, the government must urge both sides to agree to end the current hostilities immediately, reinstate the ceasefire and return to the peace process.

The Government of Canada should also work to ensure that medical and food aid is provided to the civilians of Gaza through U.N. agencies.

New Democrats believe that Canada must pursue a balanced approach to the Middle East crisis, in keeping with Canadians' deep desire for peace in the Middle East and are ready to work with the new administration in the U.S. towards a lasting peace in the region. This goal cannot be achieved while citizens in such large numbers are being killed and endangered.

And it cant be achieved with the current batch of deadheads prorogueing parliament and afraid to even show up for work in Ottawa let alone do their jobs with foreign affairs issues amounting to, "YEah, what dubya said!"

===

Quote:

NDP MP Paul Dewar (Ottawa Centre) criticized Ottawa's "muted" reaction to this latest offensive. He said Canada should be taking a "robust" role to deliver aid to civilians and monitor any ceasefire.

Instead, he said Canada is sitting on the "sideline," suggesting a pro-Israel viewpoint by the Conservative government was the reason for lack of outcry from Ottawa.

===

Quote:

Time to defeat Harper now:NDP

OTTAWA -- The NDP is warning the Liberals they likely have at most a few months to defeat the minority Conservative government and replace it with a coalition that would make Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff prime minister.

Thomas Mulcair, the NDP finance critic, held out a veiled threat to Ignatieff that his party may not be willing to topple the government at a later, more conducive time for the Liberals.

 

Harper is not equipped to lead a nation. Harper has to go.

Unionist

This has got to be the most cold-blooded Ignatieff clone going:

[url=">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090112.wcoisrael13/...
In the case of Israel v. Hamas, two wrongs don't make a right[/url]

Quote:

"Canada continues to fully support Israel's right to defend itself," junior foreign minister Peter Kent said after an Israeli air strike on a United Nations school in Gaza killed 42 Palestinians last week.

"Canada has to support the right of a democratic country to defend itself," said Liberal Party Leader Michael Ignatieff.

I agree. But I also agree with UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who called the attack on the school "totally unacceptable." And I agree with Navi Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, who called for "credible, independent and transparent" investigations into possible war crimes. I can agree with all these comments because they concern different strands of international law. ...

The absence of a reliable mechanism for prosecuting Hamas and Israeli perpetrators is unfortunate. But so, too, is the support that some Canadian politicians have given to apparent violations of international law. The long-term viability of these rules depends on our willingness to speak out in defence of them - against all perpetrators.

Michael Byers is Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law at the University of British Columbia. He was a visiting professor of law at the University of Tel Aviv in April of 2004.

 

 

martin dufresne

The death count in Gaza has now reached 1,000 and goes on climbing.

__________________________

still hoping that the Knesset and Washington will do the right thing

Fidel

America's Hidden Role in Hamas's Rise to Power

Quote:
Israel initially encouraged the rise of the Palestinian Islamist movement as a counter to the Palestine Liberation Organization, the secular coalition composed of Fatah and various leftist and other nationalist movements. Beginning in the early 1980s, with generous funding from the U.S.-backed family dictatorship in Saudi Arabia, the antecedents of Hamas began to emerge through the establishment of schools, health care clinics, social service organizations and other entities that stressed an ultraconservative interpretation of Islam, which up to that point had not been very common among the Palestinian population. The hope was that if people spent more time praying in mosques, they would be less prone to enlist in left-wing nationalist movements challenging the Israeli occupation. . .

 Hamas Comes to Power

As a result, even though Hamas only received 44 percent of the vote, it captured a majority of parliament and the right to select the prime minister and form a new government ...

The Americanos have orchestrated about 95% of this entire disaster. US imperialists bypassed moderate Muslims in 1980s Afghanistan and Pakistan in favour of propping up the most militant of Islamists for waging holy old jihad against the Soviet-backed secuilar socialist PDPA government in Kabul. Even though Afghan warlords have proposed it, the Americanos are dead set against proportional voting in Afghanistan. And it looks like they are for first past the majority FPP in Palestine, too. Obsolete electoral systems make it easier to prop up militant Islam in Palestine.

It's a phony war on terrorism in Central Asia, and this is a contrived crisis in the Middle East and all. The struggle for democracy continues against all odds.

Cueball Cueball's picture

I should think that the idea that Hamas is an "extremist", as opposed to "moderate" Muslim organization should be closely interogated.

1) Fatah, and the PLO, and Hamas have all used violent means. All have killed civilians. Fatah's Al Aqsa martyrs brigades have even used suicide bombers.

2) Fatah, ran women candidates in the recent election, well... so did Hamas.

3) Fatah did not promise to open a free public school for girls, in the last campaign, however Hamas did.

I can't imagine Mullah Omar doing any such thing, or even talking about it.

As far as I can tell the most objectionable thing about Hamas, in comparison to the other resistance groups among Palestinians is their rather backward, and hastily cobbled together Charter, which few if any Hamas officials ever quote or reference.

I think we should be careful about playing up western preconceptions, and falling into "war on terra" propaganda motifs without closely examining the facts on the ground.

Not my favourite people, but then the Taliban they are not.

Fidel

The Taliban are partly to mostly the USA's creation, too, along with "al Qa'eda"  The point is, the US and friends wanted to stem the tide of secular socialist thought in Central Asia. And they wanted a more religious leadership for Palestine thinking Palestinian muslims would be too busy praying and content with social programs to be bothered with paying attention to political issues. According to Zunes' article, Israel exiled secular and more peaceful dissidents while encouraging militant Islamists to gain a foothold in Gaza and territories since 1993. But things changed, and Hamas has become a legit organization with diminished terrorist activities and goals. Zunes said Hamas even rejected "al Qa'eda's" proposition that all of Palestine to 1967 borders be retaken by force. al Qa'eda is another mythological enemy created by the CIA, Saudis and friends since the proxy war in 1980's Afghanistan

To the Israelis and Americanos dismay, Palestinians favour secular politics but are drawn to the social services delivered by Hamas and honesty Hamas members have become renowned for.

 And it looks like the US and Israelis are up to their eyeballs deep with interfering to extremes in Middle Eastern democracy. Bush and company demanded that elections be held in 2006, and Hamas were the winners of a phony majority. The US also forced elections on Afghans in recent years, and then tried to tell the world that this is how democracy works. And nothing could be further from the truth. It's political interference by uncle Sam and his proxies. IN years before they didnt go to all this trouble - they just rigged the elections outright or had the political opposition murdered by the CIA or by friendly colonials in regions like Latin America. It's US imperialism with a slightly different twist in the case of Israel and Palestine versus Afghanistan, which is a total basket case on life support. Wherever the human rights shitholes are, there goes Uncle Sam and imperialist friendsin some role or another.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Yowza long thread, please start another.

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