Should the left split from the NDP?

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Jacob Richter
Should the left split from the NDP?

Before I continue with the topic at hand, I would like to express my lack of surprise at Harper's Nixonian machinations (political funding, bans on strikes, and especially eavesdropping) coming back at him, in the form of political machinations from the other side.

That being said, now that the NDP has formally "sold its soul" to the coalitionist devil (as opposed to less formal class collaboration in the post-war period), and given the surge in the interest in class politics resulting from this financial crap (Die Linke and the class-based third parties in the U.S. come to mind), should the left split from the NDP and finally form a politico-ideologically independent class party?

ottawaobserver

No.

Peter3

Whatever.

George Victor

 

Yes.Please.

Interested Observer Interested Observer's picture

The fundis are beginning to speak up! It is as I thought. Undecided

 

Brian Topp: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)

Stockholm

They can try - but they will fail miserably. When the NDp expelled the Waffle faction in the early 70s - they tried to form a new party called Movement for an Independent Socialist Canada (MISC) and they got something like 0.00001% of the vote in the subsequent 1974 election.

Even after Tony Blair's outrages, attempts to create a force to the left of the Labour Party has only taken about 0.0001% of the vote. Some loony-left types in Saskatchewan tried to set up the "New Green Alliance" as a leftwing alternative to the NDP under Romanow and Calvert - against 0.0001% of the vote (notice a pattern here?)

Interested Observer Interested Observer's picture

Haha... MISC...

Almost as bad as C.R.A.P.P. ! Tongue outCool

 

Brian Topp: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)

Jacob Richter

Ah yes, just when the political tide was shifting to the right, if I remember correctly.  Then again, I'll respond to your "loony left" remark by calling you a "little Ebert," just for ignoring Die Linke.

JeffWells

Not the left, but perhaps the saints who recoil at rendering unto Caesar.


A coalition may end up being a failed experiment, but if New Democrats enter into it with clear eyes and good intentions I think it's well worth making.

ravijo

This is stupid. Jack and the federal caucus are doing what JS Woodsworth and Ed Broadbent wish they could have done. Instead of holding the Liberals to accound in name, the federal New Democrats are going to have for the first time ministry positions and the ability to demand and negotiate our policy into action.

If the be-all and end-all of the organized electoral left was set out to simply propose ideas, never to be implemented-- we would have all joined the numerous NGOs in existance which promote (to whomever is in power) a position. The reality is that parties exist to get elected and eventually win power. If your party is not attempting to win power and push its agenda, it's doing nothing worth while. I happen to believe that Jack and the federal party have been acting in the interest of the membership and support base, and I believe they are carrying out the very vision on which the party was founded.

Remaining skeptical and wanting to keep a tennant of accountability and honesty is certainly needed. But to automatically denounce any attempt to implement our agenda beyond talking points is plain foolish

Interested Observer Interested Observer's picture

Yeah but the only reason Die Linke exists is because of MMP and East Germany's historical ties to the U.S.S.R. That's the only way they broke the 5% barrier to join the Bundestag.

There's some scary people in that party by the way. Some of their candidates have had ties to the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi]Stasi[/url].

 

 

Brian Topp: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)

Parkdale High Park

Harper needs 9 votes to get things passed. If there are 9 MP's that want a hard left agenda they can split off, vote for the coalition and the VONC, but refuse to support the coalition if it makes centrist moves like corporate tax cuts.

 

 

Interested Observer Interested Observer's picture

wikipedia wrote:

 

Erroneous Stasi claim deleted

Deleted

At least seven members of the Bundestag of "Die Linke" are former employees of the Stasi which consistently violated human rights in East Germany by doing murders, tortures and other cruel crimes[2].

as the claim was later corrected by the original source (Marianne
Birthler, the official for the Stasi-document archive) - not seven, but
an unknown, lesser number; and not Bundestag members, but Left Party
candidates.[3] Rd232 talk 14:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

and of course not "employees", but "unofficial collaborators". Rd232 talk 09:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 

 

[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Left_(Germany)]Link[/URL] *Not sure why the link does not work 

I still think it is of some significance that they were "unofficial collaborators."

 

Brian Topp: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)

Cueball Cueball's picture

Meh. One of the reasons the Stasi is reviled is because the preassured people into being "unofficial collaborators." Notice, "consistently violated human rights in East Germany". 

 Who is Rd232?

Cueball Cueball's picture

Interested Observer wrote:

Yeah but the only reason Die Linke exists is because of MMP and East Germany's historical ties to the U.S.S.R. That's the only way they broke the 5% barrier to join the Bundestag.

There's some scary people in that party by the way. Some of their candidates have had ties to the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi]Stasi[/url].

 

 

Brian Topp: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)

Anyone even vaguely associated with east German politics before unification had connections to the Stasi. I can show that the Rabbi killed in Mumbai Chaba House likely had connections to international money launderers who most probably had connections to Mossad.

Eek! It means nothing.


Jacob Richter wrote:

 


Before I continue with the topic at hand, I would like to express my lack of surprise at Harper's Nixonian machinations (political funding, bans on strikes, and especially eavesdropping) coming back at him, in the form of political machinations from the other side.


That being said, now that the NDP has formally "sold its soul" to the coalitionist devil (as opposed to less formal class collaboration in the post-war period), and given the surge in the interest in class politics resulting from this financial crap (Die Linke and the class-based third parties in the U.S. come to mind), should the left split from the NDP and finally form a politico-ideologically independent class party?



Not really. The left should organize irregardless of the NDP. Effective organization, and dissolusionment will attract the left to any left wing orgnaization. The NDP is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, and there is no reason to pay much attention to it. Its good to be critical, but this "sell-out" if it can really be called a sell out is entirely in keeping with the NDP's middle of the road policies. They are a good match for the Liberals, despite all the posturing during election seasone, as we shall see.


I dont expect it to be around more than the next five years anyway.

Cueball Cueball's picture

By the way, your source: Marianne Birthler also accused the Prime Minister of Brandeburg, of the CDU, of having links to the Stasi:

Quote:
At the same time, she stood for election for the Bündnis 90 party in the Brandenburg Federal State Parliament Elections and became Minister for Education, Youth and Sports in the so-called "traffic light coalition" consisting of SPD, FDP and Bündnis 90. She resigned from the ministry in October of 1992 in reaction to the Stasi contacts of the prime minister.

Interestingly, there has been some controversy over the handling of the Stasi files :

Quote:
Two high-ranking former Stasi officers were placed in charge of investigating the Stasi relationships of a number of politicians including former GDR prime minister and CDU politician Lothar de Maizière, former prime minister of Brandenburg and SPD federal minister of transport Manfred Stolpe, and current head of the Left Party, Gregor Gysi, who was active as a dissident lawyer in the GDR. Members of the German parliament were mislead over the matter.

 

Stasi still in charge of Stasi files 

 

As I said, this leaves us with pretty much nothing.

enemy_of_capital

No. it only serves to isolate the left from the established labour movement. though the labour movement at the moment is callaborationist in character there is no reason it wont learn from experience (example, winnipeg general strike, paris commune, russian revolution, german revolution and then counter-revolution). The left must work within the labour movement thay have not the revolutionary one we want. we must indeed organize independently and seek as much exposure within the instituitions of the working class which is including the CLC and the NDP. we organize seperately but march together, the left needs to patiently explain its position to the rank and file and when history inevitably proves class callaborationism is futile we must be there to harness the dissallusionment and in this attmosphear where we are known, time tested members and leaders in the labour movement can the lessons of history be explained by those who saw them and grasped by those who can apply them in the future (one hopes more people then not see the error of their ways but doesnt count on this, the left must got tot them). to reiterate all splitting serves to do is isolate the left from the movement.

Michelle

Stasi?  WTF?  Back on topic!  (*whipcrack*)

Coyote

I have yet to see a political program put forward by the "left", of any practical relevance, that is in substance different from that of the NDP. That said, should a political formation appear with that tack in mind, I would be very interested to see how they would fare both electorally and in terms of grassroots organizing. As a moderate New Democrat, it would be good to see a formal iteration of exactly what constitutes the left positions the NDP has abandoned, and what program would actually be considered left-wing. Then we could actually have a fact-based discussion of the issue.

Bonne chance, sincerely.

Interested Observer Interested Observer's picture

That's a very good point. Showing people what socialism really is and how it differs from the NDP could only be good for the NDP. Wink

 

Sorry Michelle. Frown

Brian Topp: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)

Krago

Cueball wrote:

I can show that the Rabbi killed in Mumbai Chaba House likely had connections to international money launderers who most probably had connections to Mossad.

Really?  I would be interested in seeing the proof.

Labonza

No.

Use this opportunity to get some decent bills passed, gut Harper's corporate tax cuts, drastically move forward the end date of Afghanistan, and undo as much of the past few years as possible first.

Think of the good of the country and this chance to set the agenda.If this coalition can stick for awhile, the party can move forward on many priorities.Show the country that the NDP can be resposible and reasonable instead of the socialist nutbags the Globe/Natl Post/ CTV/right wing talk shows like to portray.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

1.)  I note yet again that the Waffle was only expelled in Onatrio - although there is some event about the expulsion / sanctioning of the entire New Brunswick NDP which somehow involves the Waffle.  In Saskatchewan, far from being expelled, the Waffle walked out - with Premier Allan Blakeney standing at a mic and pleading with them to stay.

 

2.) Jacob's comment suggesting that the electoral failure of the post-1974 Waffle was due to the country was moving to the right suggests that Jacob wasn't alive yet in 1974 - or at least wasn't paying attention.  The left generally was doing fairly well until much later in the decade.

Jacob Richter

This Generation Y person stands corrected (re. 1974).

Sunday Hat

I'm not sure who would go if a "split" occurred.

Is there a single MP (or elected MPP or MLA) who would go? A single trade union? A single union leader?  Is there anyone who isn't already outside the NDP or marginal within it who opposes things at this point?

 I think splits will come when splitting issues emerge. If the first coalition budget contains coroporate tax cuts but working mothers are told they have to wait for childcare.... we may see a split. But until then people are excited about the possible.

KeyStone

It's a good idea.

But rather than calling it a political party, perhaps you could just call it a study group of people who don't participate in the political process.

The left is fractured enough. No point in making it even easier for the Conservatives to take advantage of the Left's inability to compromise.

 

 

ecopinko

Labonza wrote:
No.
Use this opportunity to get some decent bills passed, gut Harper's corporate tax cuts, drastically move forward the end date of Afghanistan, and undo as much of the past few years as possible first.
Think of the good of the country and this chance to set the agenda.If this coalition can stick for awhile, the party can move forward on many priorities.Show the country that the NDP can be resposible and reasonable instead of the socialist nutbags the Globe/Natl Post/ CTV/right wing talk shows like to portray.

I too was genuinely excited about the prospects of a coalition until I started thinking about it more. I was thinking the same thing - the NDP has the Liberals over a barrel, so to speak (the Bloc does too) in that they cannot survive without them. It seemed to me that this would be a perfect opportunity to implement a number of progressive policies, including the ones you mentioned (but also some form of proportional representation, which I think would be massively important to the NDP's futures). 

However, we've already seen the coalition partners (Lib and NDPs) stating, quite unequivocably, that there is no 'minimum requirement' for the NDP's participation. No policy demands, apparently, will make-or-break this coalition. 

Including, I might add, killing the $50b corporate tax-cut giveaway the NDP more-or-less hinged their campaign on. Nope, the NDP gets a whiff of power and suddenly, massive corporate tax cuts are how social-democratic parties improve the economy.

 (Edited to add that I don't think a new left party in Canada would be very useful, regardless of my disenchantment with the NDP. The conditions for it to actually happen just aren't there - look at QS in Quebec, which has far more hospitible conditions for a genuinely left party than the RoC. I thinkbuilding those conditions needs to be goal #1 for the left, not overly ambitious re-runs of fringe left parties).

I'm also worried the NDP's involvement in government will mean the neutering/spaying of otherwise-effective left social movements - it's happened in Manitoba, it can happen federally, too).

Cueball Cueball's picture

Krago wrote:

Cueball wrote:

I can show that the Rabbi killed in Mumbai Chaba House likely had connections to international money launderers who most probably had connections to Mossad.

Really?  I would be interested in seeing the proof.

 

Quote:
A second Israeli-led group, according to an indictment filed in March 1988 with the US district Court In Newark, New Jersey, reportedly laundered large amounts of cash from "at least as early as September 1986." Officials estimated that the ring had laundered more than 25 million. Its activities were connected to the Colombian drug smuggling by the presence among those indicted of Colombians and the positive reaction of drug-sniffing dogs to some of the packets of money recovered by authorities.

Among the defendants was Rabbi Sholom Ber Levitin, director of Chabad House in Seattle and, for the past 16 years, leader of the local Hasidic community. Levitin and two other defendants arrested in Seattle recieved cash from the group's New Jersey-based leader, Adi Tal, according to court documents, and converted to cashier's checks at local banks, packed up the checks and shipped them off for deposit in Panama.

RABBI POSTS BAIL IN MONEY-LAUNDERING CASE

Quote:

Prosecutors alleged in the indictments that millions of dollars were converted from cash to cashier's checks and money orders then sent illegally to Panama, Colombia, West Germany and Israel.

One package seized contained $450,000, according to an affidavit filed with the indictments.

RABBI IS LINKED TO DRUGS LAUNDERED MONEY CAME FROM COCAINE TRAFFIC, AGENT SAYS

Quote:
Levitin and Zeltzer are the only two suspects believed to be members of the ultra-conservative Hasidim Jewish sect, Prosecutor Rabner said.

Special Agent Mercier said all the defendants were apparently motivated by "personal gain . . . We have no information to believe there is any type of ideological interest involved."

The evidence centers on intercepted packages and hundreds of wiretapped telephone conversations. Several sites were searched Friday, including Zeltzer's room at the Chabad House.

Levitin allegedly got involved during the latter part of the enterprise, months after U.S. authorities began monitoring it, according to court documents. Levitin is mentioned in phone calls between Jan. 26 and March 11.

In May 1986, Rabner said, the alleged leader of the operation in the U.S., Adi Tal of Edison, N.J., was arrested briefly in Israel with $481,000 in cash but released because he had not violated any Israeli law.

 

Chabad-Lubavitch related controversies

Quote:
In 1989, Rabbi Sholom Ber Levitin was convicted of being part of an international money laundering ring that headed by Israeli Adi Tal. Levitin defended his actions, saying that the proceeds were going to Israel: "I was motivated by my desire to help my brethren in need, with funds being transferred to Israel" Levitin, one of 11 charged, was sentenced to a $10,000 fine and a 30-day imprisonment

Quote:

GUILTY RABBI MEANT WELL, HIS LAWYER SAYS

A lawyer for a Seattle rabbi who pleaded guilty to federal money- laundering charges in Newark, N.J., says his client mistakenly thought he was helping Jews who were trying to emigrate to Israel.

Rabbi Sholom Levitin, a leader of the Lubavitch Hasidic community in Seattle, last week admitted conspiring to arrange currency transactions to evade reporting requirements.

He faces up to five years in prison at sentencing March 1.

Prosecutors linked Levitin to a ring they say concealed at least $25 million worldwide over 18 months. Levitin, a 41-year-old father of nine, founded Chabad House, a Seattle community center that gives Hasidic Jews emergency housing, food and money.

In answer to questions by Assistant U.S. Attorney Stuart J. Rabner, Levitin admitted taking chunks of cash larger than $10,000 - the amount that requires a banking report to the federal government - and depositing the money in smaller amounts in banks before sending it to Israel.

Seattle rabbi knew Mumbai attack victims

Quote:
SEATTLE – The personal horror of the terror attacks in Mumbai, India reaches the Puget Sound. A Seattle rabbi knows the family of the rabbi killed by gunmen.

 

Fidel

They were prolly working for Liz and Phil.

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Sunday Hat wrote:

I'm not sure who would go if a "split" occurred.

Is there a single MP (or elected MPP or MLA) who would go? A single trade union? A single union leader?  Is there anyone who isn't already outside the NDP or marginal within it who opposes things at this point?

 

The departure of the Waffle, as far as I am aware, cost the NDP one elected official - an MLA in Saskatchewan.

 

Ironically, the current iteration of the hard left all despise John Richards since he's become a social democratic pragmatist with a soupcon of New Labour.

Cueball Cueball's picture

You think? Or is it possible that if the waffle had not left the NDP, Bob Rae might not have happened, and then the NDP might be on radar in Ontario? Just a thought.

Fidel

And all Bay Street could afford to buy was a 22 percenter in Toronto. tsk tsk They'll be eating their stock and bond certificates before very long. Pinocchio is kindling in 2011. 

the regina mom the regina mom's picture

No.  No new parties until after we have some form of PR functioning in this country.  I didn't hear it mentioned in their plan,  however.  Perhaps it's being saved for that last year, the part that Gilles wouldn't sign on to...

 

Krago

Cueball, let me understand this.

You posted several articles linking a Lubavitch rabbi in Seattle (Sholom Ber Levitin) to money laundering.  The rabbi killed in Mumbai was Gavriel Holtzberg from Brooklyn.  And the only connection you offer between the two is that "A Seattle rabbi knows the family of the rabbi killed by gunmen."

That's bullshit.  Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

Caissa

Where would the Left go?

George Victor

 

Where would the Left go?

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Around.....and around.

Ghislaine

Krago wrote:

Cueball, let me understand this.

You posted several articles linking a Lubavitch rabbi in Seattle (Sholom Ber Levitin) to money laundering.  The rabbi killed in Mumbai was Gavriel Holtzberg from Brooklyn.  And the only connection you offer between the two is that "A Seattle rabbi knows the family of the rabbi killed by gunmen."

That's bullshit.  Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

 

I am glad someone pointed this out.  Cueball, how do you have any idea that the Rabbi who was killed (and gruesomely tortured according to reports - fortunately his orphan toddler did not have to witness this) has or had any connection to the Seattle-based rabbi? I am not sure how what you are doing is any different from the Islamaphobic attempts to link every last mosque and Muslim person to the radical extremist violent groups.

 

the grey

Ghislaine wrote:
Krago wrote:

Cueball, let me understand this.

You posted several articles linking a Lubavitch rabbi in Seattle (Sholom Ber Levitin) to money laundering.  The rabbi killed in Mumbai was Gavriel Holtzberg from Brooklyn.  And the only connection you offer between the two is that "A Seattle rabbi knows the family of the rabbi killed by gunmen."

That's bullshit.  Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

 

I am glad someone pointed this out.  Cueball, how do you have any idea that the Rabbi who was killed (and gruesomely tortured according to reports - fortunately his orphan toddler did not have to witness this) has or had any connection to the Seattle-based rabbi? I am not sure how what you are doing is any different from the Islamaphobic attempts to link every last mosque and Muslim person to the radical extremist violent groups.

That it's tenuous and unrealistic was Cueball's point.  His full initial statement was:

Quote:

Anyone even vaguely associated with east German politics before unification had connections to the Stasi. I can show that the Rabbi killed in Mumbai Chaba House likely had connections to international money launderers who most probably had connections to Mossad.

Eek! It means nothing.

bush is gone ha...

Many unions support the coalition.

Greens support the coalition.

Among communists, socialists, Marxists, and others:

the Young Communist League-stuck with the Communist Party have declared hmmm. well not overt support, but calls it "very important democratic development".  Calls for the Tories to leave. 

http://ycl-ljc.blogspot.com/ 

Fightback is calling for Harper's removal but is very vocal in opposing the coalition.

http://www.marxist.ca/

the Marxist-Leninist party is calling for Harper's defeat, and the set up of "committees for democratic renewal"  I assume worker's councils/soviets.

http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2008/D38173.htm#1 

Well, that's today's political weather. 

---------------------------------------------------------

why is it that polling booths look like cattle chutes?

George Victor

And this is ALL a good reason why the left should split.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's try that modest whip again:

Stasi?  WTF?  Back on topic!  (*whipcrack*)

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Krago wrote:

Cueball, let me understand this.

You posted several articles linking a Lubavitch rabbi in Seattle (Sholom Ber Levitin) to money laundering.  The rabbi killed in Mumbai was Gavriel Holtzberg from Brooklyn.  And the only connection you offer between the two is that "A Seattle rabbi knows the family of the rabbi killed by gunmen."

That's bullshit.  Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

How predictable. Point is this. And anyone who wants to establish the actual train of the conversation can see it, unless of course they are riding their ideological hobby horse like you, is charges that certain people in Eastern European politics having "connections" to the Stasi can be pretty spurious and tendentious.  After all what is a "connection" anyway? The Stasi were everywhere, and connected to everyone.

In other words, I am glad you agree. As I said: "It means nothing." Same is true here. The fact that these two Rabbis, the one caught up in the international Israeli based money laundering scandal, and the one killed in Mumbai being connected in this manner, does not necessarily impugn the second.

No more than it impugns me.Wink

But the connection is not just personal, it is also organizational. 

As for this particular case. Lets get it straight right now. The Chabad Houses are not like the JCC. They Chabad movement is an extreme right wing, highly ideological messianic Hasidic cult. Many of its members believe that the last leader of the movement was the prophet, that all Palestinians Arabs should be expelled both from Israel, and the West Bank, and Gaza. They are very much a heart and soul element of the

settlers movement.

I for one believe Sholom Ber Levitin, when he says he had no idea of what he was getting into when he was mailing off half million dollar packages to Panama in the 1980's, I also think that his ideological predelictions brought him into contact with some unsavory types and allowed him to engage in more than a little wishful thinking and self-delussion. I would also note that the people in the Chabad movement seem to believe that their conscience supercedes the rule of law. I would not at all be suprised if the same were true of the operator of the Mumbai Chabad House.

Shin Beit are now operating in Kashmir in co-operation with Indian government.  What precisely is the ISA doing in Kashmir, anyway? Where do its members go when they hang out in Mumbai?

Does this mean that Gavriel Noach Holtzberg was guilty of anything in particular? Not at all. But, I want to dispose of this fiction that Holtzberg was assassinated only because he was a Jew. There are lots of Jews in Mumbai, so why Chabad house and why Holtzberg and the people with him in particular?

In the list of those killed in the attack on Mumbai are a number of notable law enforcement officials specializing in anti-terror operations, including the chief of the anti-terror squad Hemant Karkare, commissioner of police (east) Ashok Kamte, tactical co-ordinator Vijay Salaskar and Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg whose assassins believed was an associate of the ISA, which is now operating in Kashmir under the wing of the Indian government.

Cueball Cueball's picture

No. This is the reason that people should not go around throwing around charges that X,Y and Z are members of such and such shady organization, without substantive proof. As we can see, the results can be horrific for people who for all we know, are perfectly innocent.

I am sorry someone made the allegation that the "Left" party in Germany is a Stasi outfit more or less, regardless of Michelle's intervention, the record needed to be corrected.  I don't see why such a dangerous charge should be left to stand.

Krago

Bullshit.  Your explanation is bullshit.  Your non-apology is bullshit.

Someone posted about Die Linke and the Stasi, and you decided to accuse the rabbi killed in Mumbai of being connected to money laundering.  When I challenged you, your "proof" was ridiculous.

You could have written, "I was wrong to post that.  It was a mistake.", but you didn't.  I don't believe for one second that it was purely coincidental that you choose a Jewish rabbi to accuse of criminal activities.

Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

Krago

Double post

Krago

Triple post

arthur seaton

How is it possible that in all this discussion people seem to miss that the reason for this crisis for the Tories is the global economic crisis.

Everyone can agree it is joyful to watch the Tories sink themselves everytime they open their mouths. It is fantastic, I can't think of a time when I've enjoyed watching tories speak on tv.

But the key question has to be will a coalition with the Liberals really put working people first?

The first signs are in. Here is the balance of proposals so far - $50 billion for business in tax cuts. $30 billion for stimulus package most of which will go to business.

Some changes to EI, no mention of what they really will be. Will Dion agree to rollback EI to UI -changes the liberals were never ready to make when they were in office.

Will they slash the $490 billion military budget and put it into housing, education, childcare, healthcare and a green jobs strategy?

What we need to do is ramp up our demands on whoever is in power. The coalition will be shaky - all the more reason to step up the pressure that the government stop rewarding business for this mess were in and start helping workers out.

I fear though that sections of the labour leadership and the NDP will do as they have in past and tell everyone to not push the new government, to stay at home or else we'll get the Tories back in.

Stay or leave the NDP is up to people, but those that stay hopefully will fight against the NDP leadership when it refuses to take on big business.

Real substantial change never happens via parliament, it has always happened because of mass movements that tap into the anger and disillusionment of people, and give an expression in the workplaces, campuses and streets. (that how we won the weekend, welfare, the right to a union etc..)

It is the same strategy that can begin to make sure the economic crisis we are in isn't taken out on the backs of working people.

 

Already

Cueball Cueball's picture

Krago wrote:

Bullshit.  Your explanation is bullshit.  Your non-apology is bullshit.

Someone posted about Die Linke and the Stasi, and you decided to accuse the rabbi killed in Mumbai of being connected to money laundering.  When I challenged you, your "proof" was ridiculous.

You could have written, "I was wrong to post that.  It was a mistake.", but you didn't.  I don't believe for one second that it was purely coincidental that you choose a Jewish rabbi to accuse of criminal activities.

Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

Any intelligent person can read the thread and see what I said. You are right, I didn't appologize for anything. Nor will I. Everything I posted is a matter of public record.

I did not say that the Holtzberg was involved with money laundering. I said that he was connected to people who were. It is a fact.

Chabad is a tightly knit international extreme right wing Hasidic cult that has been used as a cover for money laundering operations of Israeli organizations. I personally suspect that the 1980's stuff was tied in with Iran-Contra, but I can't establish that.

Interested Observer Interested Observer's picture

Krago wrote:

Bullshit.  Your explanation is bullshit.  Your non-apology is bullshit.

Someone posted about Die Linke and the Stasi, and you decided to accuse the rabbi killed in Mumbai of being connected to money laundering.  When I challenged you, your "proof" was ridiculous.

You could have written, "I was wrong to post that.  It was a mistake.", but you didn't.  I don't believe for one second that it was purely coincidental that you choose a Jewish rabbi to accuse of criminal activities.

Pure anti-Semitic bullshit.

What the hell is your problem?

He was using this as an example to diffuse what I was saying about 'Die Linke' and how some candidates were accused of having 'colloaborated' with the Stasi under the soviet regime.

He was saying that it meant NOTHING just like HIS EXAMPLE MEANT NOTHING!

Please learn to use your intellect and use it rationally rather than throwing this crap around! You've completely misunderstood Cueballs intentions.

 Now back on topic, Are there any significant figures in the left that could separate from the NDP? What good/bad would it do?

 

Brian Topp: Our friends on the blue team seem to mostly focus on sticks, and not so much on carrots. ;)

George Victor

Not sure whether your whip did the trick, Michelle, but we are struggling back onto the track of the thread. Whatever works, eh?

Jacob Richter

bush is gone happy happy happy wrote:

Many unions support the coalition.

Greens support the coalition.

Among communists, socialists, Marxists, and others:

the Young Communist League-stuck with the Communist Party have declared hmmm. well not overt support, but calls it "very important democratic development".  Calls for the Tories to leave. 

http://ycl-ljc.blogspot.com/ 

Fightback is calling for Harper's removal but is very vocal in opposing the coalition.

http://www.marxist.ca/

the Marxist-Leninist party is calling for Harper's defeat, and the set up of "committees for democratic renewal"  I assume worker's councils/soviets.

http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2008/D38173.htm#1 

Well, that's today's political weather. 

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why is it that polling booths look like cattle chutes?

1) Union bureaucracies have long since been class-collaborationist.  What about the militants in the rank-and-file?

2) Greens: so?  Although not related to class struggle, Dion isn't going to implement the controversial carbon tax.

3) For the rest, at least they're opposing this new iteration of coalitionism a la Millerand.

arthur seaton wrote:
Real substantial change never happens via parliament, it has always happened because of mass movements that tap into the anger and disillusionment of people, and give an expression in the workplaces, campuses and streets. (that how we won the weekend, welfare, the right to a union etc..)

Thank you!Cool

Unionist

Cueball wrote:

Chabad is a tightly knit international extreme right wing Hasidic cult that has been used as a cover for money laundering operations of Israeli organizations.

You know, Cueball, you should watch your mouth. I know you never apologize, but this time you should. You talk about Lubavitcher Hassidim the way Islamophobes talk about Muslims. So just quit it, no matter how hard it is for you.

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