Whither the E-May Party?

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MUN Prof. MUN Prof.'s picture
Whither the E-May Party?

Is the E-May party in trouble or does it just seem that way?

John Ogilvie (GP)

The E-May party is definitely in trouble, but there may be new hope for the Green Party. 

remind remind's picture

Meanwhile she plays the spoiler in SGI

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Yeah, nomination fights and accusations of the federal brass taking over a riding. That's never happened in any other party. Yawn. Why would anyone complain about May displacing Lunn?

remind remind's picture

She won't even get close to displacing him.

And no, there is usually not 62k thrown into a riding when it is a nominiation for candidates.

pretty phoney yawn ;)

janfromthebruce

John Ogilvie (GP) wrote:

The E-May party is definitely in trouble, but there may be new hope for the Green Party. 

Hi John, what do you mean by "new hope" for the GP?

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Gimme a break, remind. ALL the parties parachute in organization and if you add up the air fares, the staff wages dedicated to the effort, subcontracts, communicatiins (phones, cells, etc ...), etc ... 62k is probably paltry.

It's really tiring when so-called progressives would rather back a tory and deny reality just to smear May or any other green (or should I say non-NDP?).

It wasn't a phony yawn. It was quite sincere. I argue all the time that there is no legitimate left. Self-righteous, bull-shit threads like these underline my theory. And for the record, I think May is a lousy candidate and has done very poorly for someone who has spent so much time in front of the media. She is naive, contradictory, and in the last election failed to develop any election strategy for after the debates.

But I'd still rather see her in parliament displacing a tory. I know, I know, it is the uniform, the faith, the loyalty, the colors, the family, whatever ...

You see, for there to be a left, there would have to be an opposing idea, an opposing vision. And there is not one. There is no overarching cause. It is all petty politics and we, collectively, as progressives, the Left, lack the courage and the brains to break free from a political strait jacket that sustains a socio-economic system that buys our loyalty with gadgets and television.

A pox on all houses.

remind remind's picture

FM, you are not getting what I meant, allegedly she is using 62k to run against another Green Party member for the riding seat, her seat run is NOT uncontested, and that is why he is taking her to Elections Canada. Did you even bother to read the article, as it seems not?

Andf again I state she has not a hoping hell of taking it from Lunn, she is actually ensuring he gets it.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

I read it. Did you?

Quote:

Now, in a complaint Hertzog said he filed Thursday, he alleges the party's federal council illegally transferred $62,000 from a special fund it set up to get May elected – after it decided this spring that winning a seat for the leader would be the priority in the next campaign – to the electoral district association, and that it is being used to finance the nomination campaign

To get her elected. He alleges its illegal and he alleges it's being used for the nomination battle and I wouldn't doubt some of it is being used for that but there is nothing, yet. to suggest it is all being spent. Give me a break.

And if you're so sure that Lunn has the seat sewn up, then there really is no risk of a Green MP so what it is the big concern other than being good NDP stalwarts by bashing May?

P.S.

Quote:
"You obviously can't imagine any other party in Canada where the leader would be even contemplating running in a riding where someone would say – just to make a point – the nomination would be contested," May said

Can you imagine another party where the leader would contest a nomination? More likely the guy is an asshole for not just stepping aside.

remind remind's picture

You can't use general party funds to fund a riding battle,  for just 1 candidate running, wth are you thinking?

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Okay. So where, besides the allegation of a disgruntled would-be candicate without the good sense or common decency to stand aside for the party leader, is there any evidence such spending occured? Oh, right, there isn't. But why should that matter she's Elizabeth May and therefore satan.

remind remind's picture

IMV, he would NOT be going to Elections Canada if there was not evidence.

peterjcassidy peterjcassidy's picture

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Okay. So where, besides the allegation of a disgruntled would-be candicate without the good sense or common decency to stand aside for the party leader, is there any evidence such spending occured? Oh, right, there isn't. But why should that matter she's Elizabeth May and therefore satan.

The party yesterday disputed the amount of money and its purpose.

"Not one cent of the money has been used for anything," said John Fryer, May's campaign manager in Saanich-Gulf Islands.

Fryer said the money from the fund to get May elected is being held in Ottawa and has not been touched. He said the party lent the riding association $50,000 as seed money to mount its campaign after May wins the nomination.

 

What the campaign manager is quoted as saying, there's the spending.. Sounds  like the central Green Party has a chunk of cash, at least $50,000 "seed money" to provide to the local Green riding association if it nominates Elizabeth May. If they don''t nominate May, nothing?

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

remind wrote:

IMV, he would NOT be going to Elections Canada if there was not evidence.

Why not? Who would write a story if he didn't?

Quote:

Sounds  like the central Green Party has a chunk of cash, at least $50,000 "seed money" to provide to the local Green riding association if it nominates Elizabeth May. If they don''t nominate May, nothing?

Oh, that's horrible. Because of course the NDP will be spedning the same money they will spend on Jack's campaign in every riding where he's not running, right?

You guys are missing the opportunity to really smear May -- she's not really green! Every Irish man and woman should be offended.

 

Debater

Frustrated Mess wrote:

And if you're so sure that Lunn has the seat sewn up, then there really is no risk of a Green MP so what it is the big concern other than being good NDP stalwarts by bashing May?

I think it's because her presence in a riding splits the centre-left vote and makes it more difficult for the NDP.  Look what she did in Central Nova last year - even without a Liberal candidate running she couldn't beat the Conservative and bumped the NDP down to 3rd from where it had been 2nd in previous elections.

I think people are also finding it ridiculous that she is running around from province to province in every election finding a new seat to run in.  Serious candidates do not do that.  She is beginning to lose credibility and is going to look ridiculous if she doesn't stop it.

ghoris

To be fair, it's her second election so the statement that she's "running around from province to province in every election finding a new seat to run in" is a bit over the top. Did people criticize Chretien for running from 'province-to-province' in the early 90s? Or Mulroney in the 80s? Or Douglas in the 60s?

That being said, she should have run in Saanich-Gulf Islands in the first place. Running against Peter MacKay was a strategic blunder right up there with Joe Clark calling a leadership convention in '83. There was no good reason for her to run in Central Nova. I suppose nominally it was her 'home' riding although her real 'home' has been Ottawa for the past 25 years. If she wanted to make a statement or get publicity by challenging a cabinet minister, hell, Gary Lunn was then in charge of Natural Resources - a perfect target for May.  With the Liberals standing down in her favour and (as we later found out) the NDP candidate a bust, I think that had May run in SGI in 2008, she would very likely be sitting in the Commons right now.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

It is here 3rd, having run in London North Centre (maybe third province lucky). 

ghoris

Whoops! Forgot about London North Centre, you're quite right FM. (Obviously her run there made a big impression on me!)

I still think she should have run in Saanich-Gulf Islands in the first place. ;)

Debater

ghoris wrote:

Whoops! Forgot about London North Centre, you're quite right FM. (Obviously her run there made a big impression on me!)

I still think she should have run in Saanich-Gulf Islands in the first place. ;)

Yes - it is her 3rd attempt in a 3rd different province.  That is why I used the expression "running around from province to province" above.

But yes you are right that Chretien, Mulroney, Clark and other party leaders have run in more than one seat historically, but not usually in THREE different provinces AND the difference is that they WON the seats they ran in.

peterjcassidy peterjcassidy's picture

Is there a consensus emerging that if Elizabeth May does not win this seat in the anticipated general election, she will not survive the scheduled Green leadership review/race?  That would mean the end of the "E-May Party" in the sense the Greens would  no longer be lead by her and identified  with her,

David Young

John Turner is the only former Prime Mininster who represented three different ridings in three different provinces that I'm aware of:  St. Laurent-St. Georges (Quebec - 1962-1968), Ottawa-Carleton (Ontario - 1968-1975), and Vancouver-Quadra (B.C. - 1984-1993).

An accomplishment that Elizabeth May(Day!) will never achieve.

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Yeah, that was some accomplishment. Finally! Something for which we can remember John Turner besides his dismal debating skills.

D V

"Hi John, what do you mean by "new hope" for the GP?"

Hard to see if John is at the centre of it.
Nor if he means Eliz. stepping down because of justified fatigue to be replaced
by the outgoing GPO head.

 

jimmyjim

David Young wrote:

John Turner is the only former Prime Mininster who represented three different ridings in three different provinces that I'm aware of:  St. Laurent-St. Georges (Quebec - 1962-1968), Ottawa-Carleton (Ontario - 1968-1975), and Vancouver-Quadra (B.C. - 1984-1993).

An accomplishment that Elizabeth May(Day!) will never achieve.

 

 

John A MacDonald Represented 5 different riddings in three provinces.

Stockholm

EMay is no Sir John A. and this is 2009 not the 1870s.

Meanwhile the shady green sheninagans in SGI are now front page news in the local paper. Finally the media is waking up to investigating what a bunch of charlatans May and her sycophants are. Hopefully this will all contribute to voters in SGI having an even more negative opinion of her in the election when she comes in fourth!

 

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Rival+Green+complains+Elections+Canada...

D V

"comes in fourth"

if it's a close four-way race, that would be respectable

Lunn has wunn by bouncing from low 30s to low 40s, so with lower than low 30s it could be close enough 3-way race at least, close enough for respectability whoever "first past the post"

 

remind remind's picture

So May's campaign manager only gets to access the funds, not the riding association, eh.

Wonder if she really is selling her house in Ottawa? Seems to me doubtful, as if she wins, where is she going to live? ;)

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

So I guess it's agreed. May is toast and this Herzog guy is butter. Because here is what he says about the BC NDP:

Quote:

The Green Caucus played a large part in trying to push the BCNDP towards green policies, particularly on logging in the Carmanah Valley. But the industrial unions in the NDP were anti-environmentalist, and after running as a candidate for the NDP in Vancouver-Quilchena in 1991, when I came in second, the victorious BCNDP under the leadership of Mike Harcourt essentially pushed the Green Caucus out of the party. Glen Clark, the next NDP BC Premier, was even worse. Clark declared environmentalists “enemies of BC.”

http://greenpolitics.ca/2009/08/why-i-am-standing-as-a-nomination-candid...

No wonder they keep losing to a mediocre and even incompetent Liberal party.

janfromthebruce

The new guy is anti-union/labour and May, where does she sit? There seems to be a strong anti-union sentiment running through the Green party.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Reading that another way we could say there seems to be a strong anti-environment sentiment running through the NDP ... but why don't we? Because we don't ascribe the words of one disgruntled member to the entire party, do we? Maybe we should if it works for smearing the Greens, eh?

jimmyjim

janfromthebruce wrote:

The new guy is anti-union/labour and May, where does she sit? There seems to be a strong anti-union sentiment running through the Green party.

 

Which is why I don't believe they grab NDP votes. The NDP is all about unions working to further enviromental shift, the greens are ready to distory anything that gets in their one issue way. There needs to balance.

MUN Prof. MUN Prof.'s picture

The Green Party is as anti-union as the Reform Party ever was.

When candidates/corporations run around complaining about industrial unions and the like, I start wondering what their real agenda is.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Uhm, MUN Prof., I wouldn't ask you actually read anything, but the guy who said that ran for the NDP in BC (so why doesn't he represent the entire NDP?) and is now seeking the Green nomination contesting E. May. So again, how does one disgruntled NDP/Green represent the entire party?

This is why I have such low regard for political debate and disprespect for political party members. Why let facts get in the way of a great smear campaign. And so easy too. Just quote one of their own on the way out the door.

remind remind's picture

Pundantry from across the country is always useful, thanks fm, for knowing sfa about what went on and giving me a chance to state;

A small part of the environmentalists in BC left the NDP, and the larger part stayed. For example, those who did not agree with tree spiking, as a means to draw attention to clear cut logging stayed, those who cared not for the life of other peoples left. No environmentalist was declared enemies of BC, but the tree spikers sure as hell were declared enemies of positive environmentalist action, and indeed of people who worked in the forests.

The industrial unions were not against environmental policies, just as they are not now, hell, I know of 100's who went out in protest of clear cutting, both at Clayoquot Sound and at the Carmanah Valley sites, as well as fighting for Princess Royal Island to become protected.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Yes, the EVIL greens left the Holy NDP and the RESPONSIBLE greens stayed. Thanks, I assume they wore white hats and black hats for easy identification. So typical ...

remind remind's picture

Wow, what a hard line you tow, noting that they were evil. I would say more irresponsible, than evil. As you correctly noted about those who stayed,  being responsible.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Well they were wearing black hats, weren't they. Sheesh!

remind remind's picture

No , no black hats, they were wearing those floppy eared toque thingies. ;)

ottawaobserver

remind wrote:

Pundantry from across the country is always useful, thanks fm, for knowing sfa about what went on and giving me a chance to state;

A small part of the environmentalists in BC left the NDP, and the larger part stayed. For example, those who did not agree with tree spiking, as a means to draw attention to clear cut logging stayed, those who cared not for the life of other peoples left. No environmentalist was declared enemies of BC, but the tree spikers sure as hell were declared enemies of positive environmentalist action, and indeed of people who worked in the forests.

The industrial unions were not against environmental policies, just as they are not now, hell, I know of 100's who went out in protest of clear cutting, both at Clayoquot Sound and at the Carmanah Valley sites, as well as fighting for Princess Royal Island to become protected.

To add to remind's comments, you have to situate this in the time just after Meech Lake and Charlottetown and the rise of the Reform Party, alongside the corporate citizens' on-side groups, set up by big PR firms and funded by MacBlo and others, to target union members and persuade them that the environmentalista and first nations were costing them their jobs (and not the appalling record on reforestation of the tree-farm licence holders like MacBlo).

Plus, as remind indicates, a number of environmentalists were advocating ouotrageous tactics like tree-spiking to advance their causes, and BCTV could be counted on to publicize those efforts well out of all proportion so they seemed even more frequent, designed to stir up the anti-environmentalist sentiment even further.  Harcourt sensibly tried to steer through all this to get communities talking about Land and Resource Use Planning and get away from the valley-by-valley conflicts, but some environmentalists were not prepared to live with all the trade-offs, and it's also true that Glen Clark probably played to the populism of the trade unions quite a bit more than Harcourt.

But you folks are forgetting that Hertzog was also much more recently urging alliances with the NDP through his website MajorityCoalition.ca.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Yeah, okay, so Herzog doesn't have a lot of credibility having made charges, that posters here imply are unfair or baseless, against the provincial NDP. And yet when he makes charges against, May, well, isn't that a halo of credibility hovering over his head? You see my point?

remind remind's picture

They are not baseless, per se, just do not contain the bigger picture, so that some like yourself are left  out in the cold not knowing actualities, and thus base their empty premises upon.

Slumberjack

'empty premises'  Who'd have thought.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

I was replying to Ottawaobserver,  remind. I'lllet you know when I want a pamphlet, thanks.

remind remind's picture

Pamphlet?

Oh, how quaint attempting to try to say "partisanship", when there isn't any.

ottawaobserver

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Yeah, okay, so Herzog doesn't have a lot of credibility having made charges, that posters here imply are unfair or baseless, against the provincial NDP. And yet when he makes charges against, May, well, isn't that a halo of credibility hovering over his head? You see my point?

It wasn't my purpose in that intervention to defend the BC NDP from Hertzog's charges, so perhaps you misunderstood.  I was trying to enrich the context for understanding the climate in which the BC NDP and its Green Caucus parted company around that time.

Was it so necessary to take a swipe at remind in the meantime?  I mean we can tell you're generally "Frustrated", but no need to take it out on people specifically.

Ken Burch

David Young wrote:

John Turner is the only former Prime Mininster who represented three different ridings in three different provinces that I'm aware of:  St. Laurent-St. Georges (Quebec - 1962-1968), Ottawa-Carleton (Ontario - 1968-1975), and Vancouver-Quadra (B.C. - 1984-1993).

An accomplishment that Elizabeth May(Day!) will never achieve.

 

Of course, John Turner represented none of those ridings(and, in fact, no riding at all) during the, what was it, three hours and 47 minutes that he actually served as prime minister?

Ken Burch

jimmyjim wrote:

David Young wrote:

John Turner is the only former Prime Mininster who represented three different ridings in three different provinces that I'm aware of:  St. Laurent-St. Georges (Quebec - 1962-1968), Ottawa-Carleton (Ontario - 1968-1975), and Vancouver-Quadra (B.C. - 1984-1993).

An accomplishment that Elizabeth May(Day!) will never achieve.

 

 

John A MacDonald Represented 5 different riddings in three provinces.

Wasn't that in the days when party leaders in Canada frequently stood as the candidate in two or three different ridings in the SAME federal election?  That's illegal now, isn't it?

Ken Burch

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Yes, the EVIL greens left the Holy NDP and the RESPONSIBLE greens stayed. Thanks, I assume they wore white hats and black hats for easy identification. So typical ...

No, the "evil Greens" wore goatees, like in Star Trek.  Since the "good Greens" also wore them, the effect was rather confusing.

Stuart_Parker

I'm no fan of Elizabeth May and her crew largely because instead of acting responsibly within a first-past-the-post system, they act as though we already have PR and the under-representation of progressive voters caused by Green vote-splitting is everyone's responsibility but theirs.

It is for this reason that I see the Saanich-Gulf Islands candidacy as good news. It looks to me like the beginning of the Greens recognizing that they have to play with the hand they are dealt. Hopefully, the next phase is to put genuine, as opposed to token pressure on other progressives to find ways to pool our votes so we don't keep getting hosed by the forces of capitalism.

Stuart_Parker

As for the Hertzog allegations, I don't see a smoking gun. What I see is sloppiness. The party should have waited to transfer the money until after May was nominated. Treating her nomination like a foregone conclusion is typical of Green corner-cutting when it comes to political ethics but, that stated, I just don't see him making out his case.

If one wanted to spend $62,000 getting Elizabeth May elected, one would leave the money under the control of the parts of the party whose finances she can directly control i.e. the budget of the leader's office. Transferring the money to the riding association inhibits rather than advancing the agenda HErtzog claims. Ditto membership lists -- May already has access to the membership list through her office in the national party. She hardly needs to bribe a local riding to give her data she already possesses.

MUN Prof. MUN Prof.'s picture

Stuart_Parker wrote:

It is for this reason that I see the Saanich-Gulf Islands candidacy as good news. It looks to me like the beginning of the Greens recognizing that they have to play with the hand they are dealt. Hopefully, the next phase is to put genuine, as opposed to token pressure on other progressives to find ways to pool our votes so we don't keep getting hosed by the forces of capitalism.

This side of the political centre the greens have shown themselves to be more in kahoots with the forces of capitalism than even the Liberals. I understand that the Green Party of Canada is generally considered to be "the most right wing" Green party in the English-speaking world.

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