Base Commander of CFB Trenton charged with murdering two women, raping two others

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Michelle
Base Commander of CFB Trenton charged with murdering two women, raping two others

This is unbelievable!

Quote:

The commander of CFB Trenton, a career officer with 23 years in the military, has been charged with two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of two women, including a corporal at Trenton and a Belleville woman who vanished 11 days ago.

Col. Russell Williams, 46, was also charged Monday in connection with sexual assault in two home invasions in the Tweed area, Det. Insp. Chris Nicholas said at a news conference today in Belleville.

The charges came “due to a singularity in those incidents,” Nicholas said. “We linked those crimes to a single suspect.”

Jessica Lloyd, 27, vanished Jan. 28 and police said on Monday that her body had been found. A second woman, Cpl. Marie France Comeau of the 435th squadron, Trenton, was found dead in her home in Brighton on Nov. 25, 2009.

I was just in Trenton yesterday and was talking with my family about Jessica Lloyd, the Trenton woman who disappeared a couple of weeks ago.  We figured she probably wouldn't be found alive, but certainly none of us figured that Base Commander was the prime suspect!

E.Tamaran

Why is it unbelievable? Because he's a "respected pillar of the community", a "senior member of the armed forces", a "nice married guy, kept to himself, worked hard"? I guess only lower class people are capable of murder. But remember the Ontario MLA and Justice Minister who murdered that bicyclist in Toronto last year? Hey, whatever happened to that anyway?

Cops and military only exist to oppress the lower classes. Cops do it all the time. Military not no much in canada, but haiti? How many people being opressed in haiti by the militaries right now?

Star Spangled C...

Oh, for fuck's sake, E. Tamaran, I assume you're referring to Michael Bryant who didn't even allegedly "murder" anybody. He may have very well been driving recklessly, he may very well be criminally responsible and deserving of punishment but there's a huge difference between behaving recklessly during a traffic altercation and deliberate rape and murder.

Michelle

Uh, no.  I never said that only lower class people are capable of murder.  That's not why I said it - I meant it as an expression of shock, not a statement about class.  But thanks for assuming the worst of me - you're a fabulous ally!

It's just that it's pretty big news in a small community when such a powerful person in such a high position of trust within the community is charged with murdering and raping a bunch of women.  It's bad when anyone does it, of course.

That said, while still shocking, it's not surprising that someone in the military is suspected.  Trained to kill, to see people as targets, a culture of sexism and misogyny...it isn't surprising that it's a breeding ground for violence against women and domestic violence.

E.Tamaran

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Oh, for fuck's sake, E. Tamaran, I assume you're referring to Michael Bryant who didn't even allegedly "murder" anybody. He may have very well been driving recklessly, he may very well be criminally responsible and deserving of punishment but there's a huge difference between behaving recklessly during a traffic altercation and deliberate rape and murder.

 

Watch the the video. He deliberately runs the guy over. That's murder...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufM7zvX3-tM

 

 

Star Spangled C...

Great! I'm sure the taxpayers of Ontario thank you for saving them the cost of a a trial with all that inconvenience of judge, jury and presumption of innocence...

E.Tamaran

Michelle wrote:

Uh, no.  I never said that only lower class people are capable of murder.  That's not why I said it - I meant it as an expression of shock, not a statement about class.  But thanks for assuming the worst of me - you're a fabulous ally!

OK I'm sorry. I just get pissed when people assume that cops and other armed people have higher standards and couldn't possibly do that because you know they're so much better than the rabble out there.

Sineed

Here's a pic of the suspect chatting up the Minister of Defence last month:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2010/02/08/belleville-jessica-lloy...

We tend to associate serial killers with guys who live alone (except for the skeleton of their mother) - human heads in the freezer kind of thing.  Not a married guy in a high-end job.  It's not a class thing - it's the relative level of apparent social adjustment.

 

 

Michelle

I don't know - since Bernardo, I haven't really pictured serial killers in that stereotypical way.  He was charming, handsome, employed (wasn't he a professional of some kind?) and high-functioning.

Snert Snert's picture

Same with Bundy.  Charm for days.  I think it's a bimodal distribution.

skdadl

I dunno -- I associate CFB Trenton and the forces generally with a kind of working-class culture, if not the kind of working-class politics that takes people left. I think Michelle is right to say that this will come as a huge shock to the people of Quinte West, who are used to thinking of everything about Trenton in a particular way. It's very heart-on-sleeves stuff, and it's not politically sophisticated -- the people I'm thinking of don't like politicians much. But this will give them a jolt.

 

About class and the military: some of the brass, especially the ones who sit in offices in Ottawa, come from privileged backgrounds, but not all, and I don't think this guy was very far up the chain (except at Trenton). I'd like to know whether he was ever in the battlefield, eg. We're hearing a lot of horror stories, really a lot, from the U.S. these days, about Iraq vets with PTSD who do very strange things, or maybe just commit suicide. A dad who waterboards his own four-year-old daughter, eg?

 

There's just too much we don't know yet. Looking at the timeline of the assaults, I really wonder whether the police weren't close enough to stop the last one. They sure connected the dots very quickly afterwards.

 

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Evan Solomon's show focused on this sory for the first fifteen minutes. I was so sickened I could hardly eat dinner, and had to change the channel.

Michelle

It will be interesting to watch how quickly people will start talking about "one bad apple" with regards to this guy being in the military.  I mean, he IS a bad apple in that most military men don't go around raping and killing women.  (Well, at least not at home.  Who knows how many of them do it on missions?  It's no secret that women become the spoils of war everywhere war is fought.) 

What they won't say in the media is that domestic abuse and violence against women is on a continuum. On the one extreme end, you've got the "rape and kill women and bury them in the backyard" type of guy, like the murderer in this case.  And then way on the other end, you've got the guy who has sexist attitudes, tells sexist jokes, thinks women should be excluded from "male" roles, does the put-down artist routine with women in his life, and goes between feeling disdain for women (who don't conform to their idea of what women should be like) and feeling protective of women (in a patronizing way, as long as they're docile enough).  And you've got everything in between - and the low end of the spectrum contains the attitudes necessary to feed the high end.

What they also won't say in the media is that the military is a breeding ground for everything from that "mild" end of the continuum, where it's mostly attitude and sexism, to the "extreme" end, where women are considered "spoils of war", especially when they are dehumanized as "the enemy".  Does everyone in the military think like that?  Of course not.  I mean, hell, there's a culture of alcoholism in the military too (at least there used to be), and at one time, if you didn't go drinking with the boys at the mess, you didn't get promoted - but that doesn't mean all military men are drunks.  There are a lot of fine, upstanding men in the military.  But there is (or at least was) definitely a culture that encourages drinking, and there is definitely a culture of misogyny.

Domestic violence rates in the military are way higher than among civilians.  Same with cops, actually.  And at the root of domestic violence is the belief that women are inferior to men, that they deserve to be treated with contempt and disdain. And that's the kind of culture that is drummed into men in the military.  Don't be a pussy!  Take it like a man!  Men are superior, weakness is girly.  And when you see weakness, strike hard.  Hit where it hurts.  Violence is good, killing is good, as long as the person is different from you and you are told that the person is bad.  And guess what?  Being a woman is bad.  Because it's feminine and girly to be a woman.  No one likes a girly-man. No one likes a wimp, a pussy.

And who the hell let women into the military, anyhow?  They should be home barefoot and pregnant where they belong, not carrying guns with the real men.  Sexual assault of women in the military by their comrades is endemic.  (Let's not forget that one of the women the base commander is accused of killing was a corporal.)  Wife battering by soldiers on leave is endemic in the US, and I doubt it's all that different here.

But of course, no one can say that it's the military that normalizes violence and machismo and turns men into killing machines who are taught disdain for women and feminine qualities.  Because that wouldn't be "supporting our troops".

I'm not surprised that it was a military guy who is suspected of doing this.  I didn't think it would be the base commander, because I didn't think someone in such a visible position of trust would be stupid enough to think he could get away with it.  Although perhaps it might contribute to a feeling of invincibility, who knows?  But when you are taught to believe that might is right, womanhood is weakness, and weakness is despicable...then it's not surprising when the worst happens.  It's tragic and horrible, but not surprising.

You have to admire the guys who withstand that conditioning and don't hurt the women in their lives.  I sure do.

Doug

Sineed wrote:

We tend to associate serial killers with guys who live alone (except for the skeleton of their mother) - human heads in the freezer kind of thing.  Not a married guy in a high-end job.

 

Where better for one to hide? Watch Dexter, it's all about that.

remind remind's picture

So.... this thread is about this piece of shit and his "respectable life, that showed he was allegedly so well adjusted socially" and not the 4 women, 2 of whom lives were taken, and 2 of whom it will take a good while to get their personal safety zones back.....?!

 

 

All the best to the LLoyd and Comeau families, my deepest sympathies and condolences.

 

May the 2 whom you have lost, have justice.

 

To the 2 women who survived, congratulations on your survival, it will get easier in time, take heart and all the best.

Bacchus

I'll be interested to see the results of the investigation into all the places he has been stationed, including the Middle East

Doug

Michelle wrote:

I'm not surprised that it was a military guy who is suspected of doing this.  I didn't think it would be the base commander, because I didn't think someone in such a visible position of trust would be stupid enough to think he could get away with it.  

 

It's often people in important positions who feel that they CAN get away with it.

Michelle

Yes, that was my very next line after the ones you quoted:

Quote:

Although perhaps it might contribute to a feeling of invincibility, who knows?

Jingles

Camp Mirage:

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Dubai, with its soaring skyscrapers and, by Arabian Peninsula standards, wide-open lifestyle, seems an [url=http://www.persiangulfonline.org/takeaction/news0605-2.htm]odd[/url] place to try to keep a secret.

Combine a culture of supremecy with a culture of impunity, and this is the result. Perhaps he can do his perp walk down the Highway of Heroes, and the red t-shirt crowd can applaud him. Nah, he did it to white women, and that is unacceptable.

I wonder if he trained in the US?

Jingles

Quote:
"This is a tough day for anyone in uniform," chief of defence staff Gen. Walter Natynczyk told the Kingston Whig-Standard while visiting CFB Kingston on Monday.

This from a unindicted war criminal, who commanded people who raped and murdered their way across Iraq. 

I'm sure he's shocked, Shocked(!) that such a thing could happen.

 

canuquetoo

Quote:
It will be interesting to watch how quickly people will start talking about "one bad apple" with regards to this guy being in the military.  I mean, he IS a bad apple in that most military men don't go around raping and killing women.  (Well, at least not at home.  Who knows how many of them do it on missions?  It's no secret that women become the spoils of war everywhere war is fought.) 

 

More interesting to guess how quickly someone would take to go off on the military for an alleged crime that has nothing to do with the military itself.

 

The individual charged with these crimes has a masters degree and spent his career as a non-combatant pilot and administrator. One could compare him to any other high-stress civilian professional. I'm guessing typical alpha male control freak that runs throughout society, regardless of occupation. Using these awful crimes as an excuse to condemn the military as sexist and misogynistic does you no justice. Some men who strive for positions of authority tend to be highly wound control freaks and some of them do commit very serious crimes against women but, historically, many of these men were religious functionaries, not violent, macho types.

 

"Women become the spoils of war"? Try women are victimised by opportunistic individuals whenever possible and may be the abusers but there is a thriving market in procurement as well. The opportunistic procurers are just as guilty.

NorthReport

Peter MacKay is acting unusually quiet.

Interim commander will replace Williams

 

Col. Russell Williams, centre, speaks to Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Walter Natynczyk, left, and Defence Minister Peter MacKay during a visit to CFB Trenton on Jan. 17.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/02/08/interim-commander-trenton.html

Doug

And so he should be - it's not appropriate for him to comment on a criminal case.

Sineed

Apparently now they are following up on the places where this guy has been posted to check up on unsolved murders/sexual assaults.  As the investigation goes forward, I suspect we'll see that there were signs of a dark side to this "pillar of the community" for some time.

Quote:
Try women are victimised by opportunistic individuals whenever possible

Agree.

skdadl

Jingles wrote:

Quote:
"This is a tough day for anyone in uniform," chief of defence staff Gen. Walter Natynczyk told the Kingston Whig-Standard while visiting CFB Kingston on Monday.

This from a unindicted war criminal, who commanded people who raped and murdered their way across Iraq. 

I'm sure he's shocked, Shocked(!) that such a thing could happen.

 

Natynczyk was in Iraq?

 

I mean, I'm sure that's not impossible, but it would be news to moi, anyway.

 

I might write of Stanley McChrystal what you wrote of Natynczyk -- no, make that I would write of McChrystal what you have written there -- but I'd need some evidence about Natynczyk.

Unionist

Oh, he sure did some dirty work in Iraq, skdadl.

ETA: I was looking for this, and I found it - another contribution to Canada by that disgusting creep Michaelle Jean:

Quote:

Lieutenant-General Walter J. Natynczyk, C.M.M., M.S.C., C.D.
Ottawa, Ontario and Winnipeg, Manitoba
Meritorious Service Cross (military division)

LGen Natynczyk, then MGen, is recognized for his outstanding leadership and professionalism while deployed as Deputy Commanding General of the Multi-National Corps during Operation IRAQI FREEDOM. From January 2004 to January 2005, LGen Natynczyk led the Corps' 10 separate brigades, consisting of more than 35,000 soldiers stationed throughout the Iraq Theatre of Operations.  He also oversaw planning and execution of all Corps level combat support and combat service support operations. His pivotal role in the development of numerous plans and operations resulted in a tremendous contribution by the Multi-National Corps to Operation IRAQI FREEDOM, and has brought great credit to the Canadian Forces and to Canada.

[url=http://archive.gg.ca/media/doc.asp?lang=e&DocID=4737]From the Governor-General's website, no less[/url]

 

skdadl

Oh, well, then. To hell with them both. I did not know this, and it is an outrage to the people of Canada.

 

ETA: Obviously, it's even more an outrage to the people of Iraq, and I should have said that on first reaction, but I was genuinely shocked. I knew that we were being strung along about Iraq, but I didn't know it was this blatant, and I don't think most Canadians do.

Frmrsldr

At the risk of bringing scorn upon myself, I will venture two things in Gen. Natynczyk's defense:

1. He issued the General Order to his subordinates to begin drawing plans and timetables for a general demob(ilization) (ie., withdrawal) from Afghanistan which (in addition to Torturegate, prorogation, declining Conservative Party popularity, etc.) has halted (temporarily at least) Harper's talk of some Canadian soldiers staying in Afghanistan beyond 2011.

2. In late November, early December 2009, when Harper, MacKay and Hillier were blah, blahing that bullshit about there being not one case where there was substantiating evidence that a prisoner handed over by the Canadian military to the Afghan authorities was subsequently tortured and abused, Natynczyk produced a field report written by a section commander (a Sergeant) that contradicted these claims and made the government look bad. Natynczyk has ordered a military investigation which will report its findings in March, to find, among other things, why the report was "deep sixed" (buried), how many other such reports are out there, and who "deep sixed" this/these reports.

As far as I'm concerned, the answer to that last question is narrowed down to former Gen. Rick Hillier, Peter MacKay and/or the PMO/Prime Minister.

Slumberjack

Bloody hell. I've met this person. If memory serves from around five years ago, he was briefly seconded to Hillier's staff while I was there.

BTW canuquetoo.... 

canuquetoo wrote:
  The individual charged with these crimes has a masters degree and spent his career as a non-combatant pilot and administrator. One could compare him to any other high-stress civilian professional.

That's always the excuse isn't it...stress made him do it...as in all around non-combatant kinda guy who just cracked under the burdens society expects him to bear.  Predatory killers and abusers exist at all levels.

Slumberjack

Frmrsldr wrote:

At the risk of bringing scorn upon myself, I will venture two things in Gen. Natynczyk's defense:

1. He issued the General Order to his subordinates to begin drawing plans and timetables for a general demob(ilization) (ie., withdrawal) from Afghanistan...

The insurgency deserves at least some of the credit for this.

PraetorianFour

The training to kill thing. This guy is a soldier[or airman] however he is in the airforce and not only an officer but a base commander. At most once a year someone puts a rifle in his hands and he fires a few rounds into a paper target for his yearly qualification. Chances are he has probably even went a few years without touching a gun. I worked with one member of our navy who somehoe slipped through cracks and didn't touch a gun for 7 years.
To suggest his guy is trained to kill [hollywood style] is not very accurate at all. He is "trained to kill" about as much as the rest of rabble is. This guy is more akin to upper management at a buisness than a soldier.

Is there a recent stat published that indicates members of the military have a higher rate of domestic violence than non-military Canadians?
For obvious reasons it's more news worthy.

Quote:
sexist attitudes, tells sexist jokes, thinks women should be excluded from "male" roles, does the put-down artist routine with women in his life

I can't argue that. Yes it does happen.

Quote:
But of course, no one can say that it's the military that normalizes violence and machismo and turns men into killing machines who are taught disdain for women and feminine qualities. Because that wouldn't be "supporting our troops".

A very small percentage of the military is what you could consider "killing machines".

Most of the military are cooks, clerks, doctors, postal workers, welders, mechanics, pilots, map designers, IT types, drivers, police, weathermen, public affairs, builders, designers.
They are just like their civilian counter part except they are taught the basics of how to use a rifle. Your average hunter wil be more skilled with a gun and more comfortable with killing something than 90% of the soldiers out there IMO.

There are a few assholes and dinosaurs out there but I think all of you would be surprised at just how accepted women and homosexuals are accepted in the military.

Soldiers [And police] are infact held to a higher standard of behavior than your average walmart employee. In the military you can get fined $200 for not shaving. A coworker of mine a few years ago was fined $1200 [Half a months pay] for being late for the third time for work. Not many jobs out there can take $1200 of your paycheque for being late.
Even something as small as walking with your hands in your pocket chewying gum in public walking around with your coat half zippered up or what kind of toque you're wearing. Thats getting a little off topic though.

If he is guilty I hope they take away his freedom for a very long time. At the end of the day people who do this kind of stuff are monsters regardless where they show up for work.

Maysie Maysie's picture

PFour wrote:
 but I think all of you would be surprised at just how accepted women and homosexuals are accepted in the military.

Kewl. Women and homosexuals? Where do I sign up?

Yell

In terms of the news item, I don't have anything to add to the comments already made except to hope that justice will be served and this asshole goes to prison. I believe the systemic analysis has already been done. 

Caissa

And if he is found not guilty?

Snert Snert's picture

Then I'm sure we'd all agree he should be released.  Hands up anyone who disagrees, and thinks he should be jailed even if acquitted!

skdadl

If he'd ever been a prisoner at GTMO, you'd see a lot of hands going up, Snert, beginning with Obama, Holder, Harper, etc.

PraetorianFour

Maysie I hope i didn't put my foot in my mouth!

Caissa wrote:

And if he is found not guilty?

 

That's the thing. People have already written him off as guilty as charged. [I'm guilty of that myself]

If he is found not guilty how many people will turn around and say the justice system sucks he is guilty but the army is just covering up for itself?

 

 

Stargazer

PraetorianFour wrote:

Maysie I hope i didn't put my foot in my mouth!

Caissa wrote:

And if he is found not guilty?

 

That's the thing. People have already written him off as guilty as charged. [I'm guilty of that myself]

If he is found not guilty how many people will turn around and say the justice system sucks he is guilty but the army is just covering up for itself?

 

 

 

I think that woul all depend on the evidence and on what grounds he would be acquitted. Besides that, you missed the point.

remind remind's picture

Don't really think they would be laying charges against him unless there was a significant body of evidence against him.

 

Nor would they be starting to conduct investigation of unsolved murders and rapes where he was stationed prior.

 

Moreover, never hear this "if proven guilty" stuff when it is someone who is not publically high profile.

 

And it is too cute the military persons here trying to discount his military profile and military reality..... :rolleyes:

 

He was base commander....

 

Also P4 there is several threads at babble on military spousal abuse that you can do a site search on if you are interested in the stats and dimensions of  the military spousal abuse, that actually also has been reported in the news.

Michelle

I think I've been pretty careful NOT to say he is guilty, actually.  I recognize, and believe in, innocent until proven guilty.

No, each individual soldier is not trained to be a killing machine personally.  But they are all trained to be part of The Killing Machine that is the military when on offensive missions, and trained to support those who are the killing machines.  They may not be taught how to do it, but they're taught to adopt the attitude that it's necessary and good to be done.  They all go through basic training, where they're taught that being a wimp or girly is bad. 

Luckily, some continue to think for themselves.  But when you realize that domestic violence is way higher among the "authoritarian" professions like military, policing, security, etc., then you've got to wonder whether there is a systemic problem.

Stargazer

The jobs P4 describes as safe jobs weren't so safe for the guys stationed in Iraq. Not to mention the constant and never-ending tours. They are there to kill, and that's what a lot of them do.

Maysie Maysie's picture

well, remind, i need to be honest. This is a hot button topic for me, so my rhetoric may be a tad over the top. And I do NOT have faith in the police system. 

But I know that when charges like this are compiled against a white man who is, shall we say, in a significant position of authority, in a profession that is regarded as very high on the "good man doing good work" scale (mainstream standards of course), then it takes a lot to bring charges in the first place.

And yes, of course he's innocent until bla bla. But he's a white guy. He'll be fine. The police and the "justice" system do far worse to far more people who have done nothing or very little. With no media attention.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I wonder if the police could have charged him earlier - but maybe they wanted their evidence in this case to be absolutely ironclad?

Michelle

I thought I heard on the news that they hadn't looked in his direction until they got a tip recently during a roadblock where they stopped and talked to every car that passed, hoping to get some information.

PraetorianFour

Quote:

The jobs P4 describes as safe jobs weren't so safe for the guys stationed in Iraq.


Very true and that's an issue the US is dealing with. Soldiers not really trained for combat being placed in combat situations.

I'm not defending this guy. Considering the investigation and whats going on I'm pretty confident he is guilty. I'm just trying to make an effort to consider everyone innocent until proven guilty.

I'm not trying to discount his military profile just that someone in his rank and position is more of a buisness man than someone you would find shooting at people.

Quote:
Also P4 there is several threads at babble on military spousal abuse that you can do a site search on if you are interested in the stats and dimensions of the military spousal abuse, that actually also has been reported in the news.

I'm going to check this out thank you.

Quote:
No, each individual soldier is not trained to be a killing machine personally. But they are all trained to be part of The Killing Machine that is the military when on offensive missions, and trained to support those who are the killing machines. They may not be taught how to do it, but they're taught to adopt the attitude that it's necessary and good to be done.

This is true.
Actually maybe someone in his position would have an easier time detaching emotions and see people as numbers or something?

remind remind's picture

Quote:
each individual soldier is not trained to be a killing machine personally.

 

Not accurate, even officers have gone through basic training of some sort and participate in war games and strategic training expeditiions, even if they have moved on to "paper pushing" and do not do so any longer.

 

Learning how to kill is not something one loses over time, much like once you learn to ride a bike, you always know how, even if you have not ridden for 20 years. The will to, or not to, is what is occuring, and nothing more.

 

People have to  really start realizing, the objectification of women and girls is an issue in our society, and it is one that literally is killing us women.

 

Dehumanization of people its what makes it allowable for crimes against humanity to occur...history has shown us this is so.

 

Once non-human status is achieved, towards an identifable group, any type of abuse or act of violence, is possible on the sliding scale of things, just as Michelle indicated above.

 

 

Sineed

Michelle wrote:
But when you realize that domestic violence is way higher among the "authoritarian" professions like military, policing, security, etc., then you've got to wonder whether there is a systemic problem.

It's a chicken and egg thing - do these professions turn men into abusers, or are your "alpha male" types more attracted to these professions in the 1st place?  I tend to think the latter - people's personalities are shaped at a very early age.

Snert Snert's picture

I was kind of thinking the same thing. 

Michelle

That could be.  Either way, the point stands, that the military is a breeding ground for violence against women.

p-sto

Breeding ground or safe haven, perhaps the distinction doesn't matter.

Angella

I think it's both ... and those that don't 'fit in' are pushed out or opt out.

Michelle

Save haven, yes, but it also legitimizes and reinforces it through the attitudes it encourages.

Take your garden-variety sexist jerk who thinks women are inferior.  I know a few guys like that who have never laid a hands on a woman.  Now, put sexist jerk guy into a uniform, put him through basic training where he's told that any show of weakness is female and despicable, and that the military is always right, and that he is part of that military that is always right.  Surround him with messages that violence is good, killing people they tell you to hate and see as your enemy (and don't forget - weakness and being a pussy or a "girl" is hateful) is a good thing, and what do you get?

I'm betting someone who is a hell of a lot more likely to act physically on their sexist attitudes than before they entered that kind of atmosphere.  And certainly someone who thinks that being controlling and emotionally manipulative with their "inferiors" is a-okay.

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