ONDP leadership V (plus Ginger)

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northwestern_lad

Don't forget about the York-South-Weston/Ferreria and the DiNovo/Parkdale-Hyde Partk by-election wins too. Those can also be attributed to Howard.

As for Mr. Bisson, his organizing and riding building more than proves that he's the only candidate with that experience. Building ridings means getting members and raising funds, which Mr. Bisson has done in spades. That's why the 10 Northern Ontario ridings, which is less than 10% of the province's ridings, make up more than 25% of the members of the party, not to mention the 6 brand new MP's elected in that region. That just didn't happen by accident, that is a result of extremely hard work on his part and others in the North. He has the experience in building ridings up and making them strong, and for all Mr. Tabuns' nice qualities, that's something that he has never done himself.

If given the choice between the person who's talking about building up ridings and the person who's actually done it, I'll take the one that's actually done it and that's Gilles Bisson.

northwestern_lad

Mojoroad1 wrote:
the grey wrote:

That you clearly don't understand how the executive, council and party work doesn't make Michael's statements asinine.

Um. No offence TG....  Re: JMasse,  I say this -leadership squabbles aside- that his understanding of the NDP executive is excellent. He is very well informed, to say the least. If you knew him, his work, and background you'd know that too.

-Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.....

 

Agreed Mojoroad....  that's the correct interpretation of the current executive step up. JMasse has got it right there.

JMasse

scout1 wrote:

Stockholm:

Howard Hampton foresaw and raised every major issue to hit Ontario way before the urbanites in ngos, engos, and cabinet addressed them. And under his leadership, the NDP won urban seats.

I think the word you are looking for is SEAT, not seats. The only Seat that Howard may be attributed to helping is Beaches. Everyone else retained, Danforth, Trinity at least in Toronto.

Its amazing that Howard also doesn't get the credit for the breakthroughs in the North, mostly because they are federal. Not to mention we can only expand so far in the North. I am not trying to take anything away from Bisson, but we need one of him that is in the Southern half of the province. I think that person has already proved who they are, thats Peter Tabuns. Organizing ridings and people from all across the province, he helped make Kingston the 'activist' riding association you see now. I didn't see Gilles or anyone for that matter before the race started, Peter was helping all the riding associations in the province out and he did it before anyone. Thats the mark of a true leader....doing the work because it needs to be done.

scout1

York South Weston, Parkdale High Park, Hamilton East: all wins. Did Layton, a Southern guy from Toronto Danforth, manage that, even when there was a weakened Liberal leader?

Beaches was retained.

The northern breakthrough did not happen overnight. It was years in the making. The feds were able to ride on that work. If you look at the 2007 provincial results, evidence of that work is there. 

While Tabuns leadership campaign began the day after the 2007 election, a move seen by many as disrespectful, others did not commence campaigning until there was a leadership post open. Some context for the "riding visit" statistics.

 

JMasse

northwestern_lad wrote:

Don't forget about the York-South-Weston/Ferreria and the DiNovo/Parkdale-Hyde Partk by-election wins too. Those can also be attributed to Howard.

As for Mr. Bisson, his organizing and riding building more than proves that he's the only candidate with that experience. Building ridings means getting members and raising funds, which Mr. Bisson has done in spades.

Ok so we can make a case for Ferreria, how I mean York-South really is an NDP institution, David Lewis and Donald C. MacDonald, I hate to say it but even Bob Rae served that seat. Its has major NDP roots.

As far as Parkdale goes, I dont think that was Howards win that was definately Peggy's win. Even in the by-election. That actually can be soley attributed to Jack and the Federal Party being able to convert Federal Ridings to Provinical Ridings respectively. Look at Ottawa Centre, look at Windsor West and Tecumseh, I mean those should be Provincial Victories and Howard could never convert. 

As for Bisson's organizing qualities, maybe its because I dont live in the north but I just dont see it. I see Elie Martel being much more vital to that role. Martel has not only been organizing for the North but he has been an advocate of the North for years. Nothing against Bisson at all hes a really good candidate, but I just haven't seen him in Kingston until after the leadership race and his declaration were made. Same with almost everyone else, everyone but Peter that is. Maybe I just have an affinity for those people that actually come to help my riding out.

JMasse

scout1 wrote:

The northern breakthrough did not happen overnight. It was years in the making. The feds were able to ride on that work. If you look at the 2007 provincial results, evidence of that work is there. 

Close is only good in Horseshoes. Converts man, we need converts getting to the finish line and losing the race doesn't mean that you are a winner. Jack certainly helped push that over the hill, certainly all the training and prep was there for those ridings but certainly there has to be something said about how well the federal party ran that campaign, it was almost magical.

scout1 wrote:

While Tabuns leadership campaign began the day after the 2007 election, a move seen by many as disrespectful, others did not commence campaigning until there was a leadership post open. Some context for the "riding visit" statistics.

I still find it funny that Peter gets the bad rap for this, I can remember when Paul was a newly elected MPP he visited Kingston and helped us organize a couple of events. Not to mention Peter was asked by caucus to do his work on the New Energy Economy. I guess the party didn't think he would be so successful, I will also note that it was so successful that Denis Bevington for Western Artic is now doing the same work nationwide. Much like Peter Julian is doing with the SPP and NAFTA talks all thanks to the leadership of one Peter Tabuns and his desire to talk and work with the ridings, all of the ridings.

scout1

But there was how many years between the last time an NDPer held that seat and the byelection win? The demographics have changed, and its a credit to Howard, the team, and the canditate Paul Ferreria for winning that seat. It was THE election battleground this past provincial election.

The Liberals provincially had to make the Windsor liberals cabinet ministers to keep those seats.

If PHP was thanks to the feds, according to your criteria, then based on that criteria it was Jack's loss as well. Though some may attribute Peggy's loss to behaviour of Cheri DiNovo. Her egregious treatment of staff becoming public provided the Liberals an advantage at the door.  

And again, showing up when you have decided that you are running for leader before a race has even been declared, in a bid to get a head start on others, is not the same as showing up.

 

 

northwestern_lad

Parkdale sure was Howard's win, just as it was everyone elses. Are you trying to tell me that Provincial Office and the whole party wasn't throwing the kitchen sink at that one??? Come on. Yes Peggy did great work there, but let's not downplay the other side of this.

As for the North, we're lucky to have multiple advocats that are capable and hard workers, like both Mr. Bisson and Mr. Martel, but I know that even Eli would tell you that Mr. Bisson and his work has been extremely important to the growth of the party in the entire North.

Also, I would point out that there are many ways to help ridings out. By building the party membership and fundraising base, like Mr. Bisson and other northern members/activists have, they have contributed resources and funds to help fund all ridings in this province to some degree or another. So I would then say that you should have an affinity for Mr. Bisson to some degree after all Wink

scout1

Did Peter come to Kingston AGMs , riding events during his first term?
Paul did, Peter nil. The former is evidence of 'showing up'. And while Peter had months more under his belt, and very effective staff ensuring his success from the moment he got elected, Paul had to build his infrastructure. But Paul still found time to come to Kingston to lend a hand.

Peter's work on the new energy eonomy is taken from the 2007 climate change plan and electricity plan, which was the product of many hands. Moreover, Howard has been talking about these issues for a very long time.

Re: the comment close is not good enough. The work of organizing is to bridge the gap in votes. Howard did that, and the feds were able to take advantage of it.

 

 

scout1

Did Peter come to Kingston AGMs , riding events during his first term?
Paul did, Peter nil. The former is evidence of 'showing up'. And while Peter had months more under his belt, and very effective staff ensuring his success from the moment he got elected, Paul had to build his infrastructure. But Paul still found time to come to Kingston to lend a hand.

Peter's work on the new energy eonomy is taken from the 2007 climate change plan and electricity plan, which was the product of many hands. Moreover, Howard has been talking about these issues for a very long time.

Re: the comment close is not good enough. The work of organizing is to bridge the gap in votes. Howard did that, and the feds were able to take advantage of it.

 

 

scout1

Too bad Paul Ferreria did not run. or Peggy Nash.  

JMasse

scout1 wrote:

But there was how many years between the last time an NDPer held that seat and the byelection win?

  

3

scout1 wrote:

The Liberals provincially had to make the Windsor liberals cabinet ministers to keep those seats.

 

I don't actually believe thats why, being a former Windsorite, I know that we have not been able to attract a candidate that can take down those two. Certainly Dwight is going to be a lot harder to beat then Sandra, but Sandra was on her last leg and people were really interested in going in a different direction. We got 25% with a no name candidate, had Howard's team been able to attract a more viable candidate that would have changed the fate of at least Windsor West.

scout1 wrote:

And again, showing up when you have decided that you are running for leader before a race has even been declared, in a bid to get a head start on others, is not the same as showing up.

I still go back to the fact that the caucus asked him to do it, and then damned him afterwords. Peter was doing exactly what every riding needed him to do. He has been the only one actively attempting to go to the ridings and getting important work done.

northwestern_lad wrote:

Parkdale sure was Howard's win, just as it was everyone elses. Are you trying to tell me that Provincial Office and the whole party wasn't throwing the kitchen sink at that one??? Come on. Yes Peggy did great work there, but let's not downplay the other side of this.

 Yeah I will give credit to the entire team on this one, that and the Smear campaign that the liberals attempted on Cheri. Certainly had a major effect on winning that race.

 

northwestern_lad wrote:

Also, I would point out that there are many ways to help ridings out. By building the party membership and fundraising base, like Mr. Bisson and other northern members/activists have, they have contributed resources and funds to help fund all ridings in this province to some degree or another. So I would then say that you should have an affinity for Mr. Bisson to some degree after all Wink

I dont know if the personal success of individuals has any bearing on the ability to donate money to candidates across the province. Certainly there has been a degree of organizing work that has been crucial to the develop of this province. Why right here in Kingston, we are using the Elie Martel model of membership organization. It has worked wonders as we have increased our membership by almost 150 from this time last year.  But thats not Gilles success entirely, that the benefit of the whole team. And that continues to be my point, we haven't been developing ridings in the southern half of the province like they have been doing in the northern. Certainly there is a lot of learn from the north, this is one of the reasons why Kingston and the Islands will be reviving Eastern Council this year on April 17 - 19th. However with that cheap pop aside, Peter Tabuns has been helping us develop our riding associations in the south empowering us through his leadership to take bold steps to improve the membership and vitality of our riding. This is certianly one of the many reasons why I am supporting Peter.

For more information about Eastern Council visit http://www.ndpkingston.org

 

 

JMasse

On a Campaign note:

 http://www.tabuns09.ca/

 

Michael Lewis endorses Peter Tabuns

'I know that Peter Tabuns has shown his leadership in many ways. Among those which stand out for me are his deep understanding of the issues, and his thoughtful and creative ideas for the future of the economy and the environment. It also matters to me a great deal that he reaches out to Labour, vulnerable workers and multicultural groups. And finally, I like leaders who listen and chat easily and are warm and friendly and clearly sincere and genuine. That's Peter Tabuns. He'll be a leader we can all feel proud of.'

Michael Lewis

 

peterjcassidy peterjcassidy's picture

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

The Leader is not the ONLY democratically elected member of the Executive.  They are all democractically elected at Convention, or in the case of a vacancy at Provicial Council.

Actualy there are a number of different  ways persons can end up on the ONDP executive and there are concerns about the process, roles, rules  and accountability..

1) The leader of the ONDP is a member of the executive. In the "old days" the leader was elected by the delegates at convention and there could be an election any convention,same as for any other execuive position.  That position is now to be filled by an OMOV vote with labour carve out with limited rights of recall or accoutability.  The next leader could go ten or tweny years without ever facing another election. And we ned to consider how much say the leader and caucus have in policy or the direction of the party. Will the membership set policy at the convention or will the leader, caucus, EPC?

2)   The position of provincail secretary, CEO of the ONDP, used to be filled by election by delegates at  each convention .Now the positon is filled by appointment, subject to ratification by provincial council, Theoretically the person hired by the executive to replece Dennis could be provincial secretaty for ten or tweny years without facing any more selection process than one hiring interview. What say does the memberhsip of the party have in tghe adminsitration of the pary?

3) Many positions on the ONDP  are elected by the delegates to the convention  at  plenary sessions- President, 3 vice presidents male, 3 vice presidents female, a  treasurer, 3 members at large male, 3 members at large female. Often there is a slate offered by the "establishment", with  a full list of candidates for each of the positions elected.  Different individualls  or  groups may be cosnidered entitled to representation or a say on the slate. The individual  members of the slate and the groups they "represent" are expecfted to back each other for election and usuallly successfully persuade the convention  to elect the full slate.  If you don't make it on the slate it's unlikely you will be elected..  I have seen former members of the executivie I would consider loyal "right, wing"" establishment", elected to the executive as part of the slate last convention, dropped from the slate next  convention and thefore defeated in a bid for re-election. Normally i run againt the slate as part of the Socialist Caucus slate and get crushed. Anybody care to join me this convention?

 3) There  are positions on the executive  filled by different caucuses in different ways . For example those delegates to the convention who self-identify as LGBT can attend a LGBT caucus and vote or run for a postion on the executive as a LGBT rep.  Once the convention is over, there is no LGBT group  they report to or are accoutable to.  There are regional caucuses,  so the delegates to the convention from the diferent regions select their reps to the executive, but after the convention there is limited means of reporting or accoutablility to the regions or to the overall party membership.  There is ONDY, disabled,  women, labour caucues etc.  which elect reps to the executive in different ways with llittle means of reporting or accountablitly to their constituency or the overall party membership.

5.  Then there are diferent committees and staff positions which get filled in diferent ways. Anybody know who is  the CEO of the leadership race, who organized or is organizing the different leadership debates, who is on the consitution commitee,  who will sit on the resolution committee at convention, who got paid to do membership work over the last year and how these positions are filled? How much say did the membrship  have or will have in the different decisons involved?

As to provincial council, the governing body betwen conventions, it used to meet four times a year. This was cut to three times a year and the "leadership" tried to reduce it to twice a year. There are econcerns about how much Provincial Council ( and convention itself) get to set policy or directionor oversee the adminsitration of the party. The membership itself has little direct say or even much  indirect say.. 

What this leads to is a mish mash of mandates for the "leadership" fo the ONDP with concerns about reporting ot accountability, a lot of adhoccerry..  Basicxally there are people who are considered to be in the loop for different decisons or roles,  with no clear rules as to who is in what loop. The system is not completely broken but it needs a lot of repair.

 

peterjcassidy peterjcassidy's picture

JMasse wrote:

Ok so I think people are confused here with something. It doesn't matter what Michael says when it comes to the democratic process in our party. He can talk about it all he wants. The fact is, its just talk. Only the executive can truly decide what we do at Convention or Council, it has nothing to do with the leader. Convention decides who is on the Executive, who then intern appoint the resolutions prioritizing committee. They rank our policies in the order that we should debate them and we are stuck.

So the statement by Michael is asinine and he knows it.

 

That statement is asine and displays a woeful lack of knowledge about democracy and how convention and  the ONDP works.

 

scout1

York South Weston was created in 1999. It was held by a liberal till 2003 = more than 3 years.
York South was Donald MacDonald's seat.

It comes across as strategic timing for Mr.Tabuns to arrive in Kingston and other ridings promoting policies that were part of the NDP platform of 2007 and before then. Caucus members have tours all the time that aim to build the party. A tour of this kind, if it was to help the party, would have been timely the year ealier.

Re: Windsor. The Liberals named those two as cabinet ministers for a reason.  And unlike other cabinet members, they get their fair share of air time, and are at the inner table.

scout1

York South Weston was created in 1999. It was held by a liberal till 2003 = more than 3 years.
York South was Donald MacDonald's seat.

It comes across as strategic timing for Mr.Tabuns to arrive in Kingston and other ridings promoting policies that were part of the NDP platform of 2007 and before then. Caucus members have tours all the time that aim to build the party. A tour of this kind, if it was to help the party, would have been timely the year ealier.

Re: Windsor. The Liberals named those two as cabinet ministers for a reason.  And unlike other cabinet members, they get their fair share of air time, and are at the inner table.

synthome

scout1: You've come a long way baby! In barely one week you've metamorphosed from disillusioned troll aghast at the presence of spin on this board to newly minted rabble rouser outslinging even the worst mudslingers. Congratulations, you're one of us. But perhaps there are lines even I wouldn't cross.

A drive by smear of a caucus member who's not even a candidate for the leadership fuelled completely on innuendo. (how do you know of this supposed Liberal whispering campaign at the door and the affect it had on the results).  Your attack is not only baseless it insults both Cheri DiNovo and Peggy Nash (who incidentally has herself resoundingly discredited any such inferences). Nash and DiNovo are great friends, and no one worked harder campaigning for Peggy Nash than did Cheri DiNovo. Even in the moments leading up to the closing of the polls, they could seen together diligently pulling the vote.

One last thing about my MPP, Cheri DiNovo. I also had attended her church. I wasn't there, but I have heard that the victory party when DiNovo survived the Liberal smear campaign and won the by-election was one of the most electric, effusive celebrations that many could remember; one punctuated by joy and tears and dancing and rousing speeches... The NDP (Hampton, other caucus members, Peggy Nash, staffers, and volunteers) should all be very proud of having won PHP from a Liberal cabinet minister who garnered nearly 60 % of the vote. Since 2003, the percentage of vote share for the NDP has risen by over 30%. However, to not give Cheri DiNovo (a high profile candidate, a loved and respected reverend and academic who had devoted her life to social justice) any credit for this, is deeply offensive and, frankly, stupefying if it is meant as real analysis. In fact, anyone who know this riding, knows all too well that the high number of swing voters will often vote on the basis of personality and high visibility of candidates over political ideology (as long as it's not conservative).

I suspect that if DiNovo can endure an assault commandeered by the entire Ontario Liberal Party, she'll endure the smears from embittered resentful dippers. Although I suspect it must hurt more when it comes from within your ranks than from without.  

To add to an already personal account. The only reason IMHO there's even a contested race for the leadership is because DiNovo decided not to throw her hat in the ring.

northwestern_lad

 

I dont know if the personal success of individuals has any bearing on the ability to donate money to candidates across the province. Certainly there has been a degree of organizing work that has been crucial to the develop of this province. Why right here in Kingston, we are using the Elie Martel model of membership organization. It has worked wonders as we have increased our membership by almost 150 from this time last year.  But thats not Gilles success entirely, that the benefit of the whole team. And that continues to be my point, we haven't been developing ridings in the southern half of the province like they have been doing in the northern. Certainly there is a lot of learn from the north, this is one of the reasons why Kingston and the Islands will be reviving Eastern Council this year on April 17 - 19th. However with that cheap pop aside, Peter Tabuns has been helping us develop our riding associations in the south empowering us through his leadership to take bold steps to improve the membership and vitality of our riding. This is certianly one of the many reasons why I am supporting Peter.

For more information about Eastern Council visit http://www.ndpkingston.org

 

 

I have never said that the success in the North isn't anything but a team effort, but the point is that Gilles has had a hand in all of this and has actually been doing the building. He has experience building up riding associations. He hasn't done that alone, but he's been doing it, hence my point about having that experience.

By the way, you say that Mr. Tabuns has done so much to help build up your riding so I am curious: what exactly has Mr. Tabuns done to help build your riding association that the central party hasn't done??? I'm not asking to be snarky, I'm actually curious.