Ontario NDP Leadership News 2

119 posts / 0 new
Last post
Sunday Hat

I think Ed is very influential as a name that people recongnize and an opnion people respect.

In practical terms Fraser is probably more influential in terms of delegate votes and actually having been involved and engaged in the provincial scene.

This is an interesting race the "party elites" (I can't think of a better term) are on one side and organized labour is largely on another. There's obviously exceptions to both but it is novel to have the Lewis family on one side and the Steelworkers on the other.

aka Mycroft

Steel isn't solid (pardon the pun). The Toronto Steel Council, for instance, backs Tabuns and Bisson received a $5,000 donation from Steel Local I-2995 which represents timber workers (and others) in northern Ontario. My understanding is that Steel delegates are selected by the union local so expect to see delegates in at least three of the camps, perhaps all four. Fraser's endorsement may influence the second choice of delegates supporting other candidates, however.

spincycle

Sunday Hat wrote:

This is an interesting race the "party elites" (I can't think of a better term) are on one side and organized labour is largely on another. There's obviously exceptions to both but it is novel to have the Lewis family on one side and the Steelworkers on the other.

 

Oh please! Give us a break and stop using "party elites" and the "Lewis" family name as tho they were a crime syndicate of sorts. Fact is Stephen and Michael Lewis along with sister Janet Solberg have been tireless and relentless workers for decades. We are a richer country, province and party for having them today and their father before them.Check your lists of endorsers and you'll see Steel is supporting more than one candidate including the one endorsed by the family you slag as "party elite".

Sunday Hat

spincycle, despite my best efforts to prevent offense I've somehow offended you. I wasn't implying that people don't work hard and don't contribute. I was merely noting that there is a gagle of former provincial secretaries and party staffers endorsing Tabuns. 

The "Lewis family" is maybe lazy shorthand for that group. Though, to be fair, Janet Solberg was the one who brought the "Lewis name" into the leadership race.

If you have a better descriptor please share it.

Lost in Bruce County

Former finance Minister and Nickel Belt MPP Floyd Laughren endorses Michael Prue

Toronto, ON-En route to a six-day Northern Ontario tour, Michael Prue (MPP-Beaches-East York) today welcomed a new prominent addition to his team of "Prue Democrats".

 

Former Nickel Belt MPP and Ontario NDP Finance Minister Floyd Laughren has thrown his support behind Michael's campaign to modernize the party and the province.

"Every day my campaign has been gaining tremendous amounts of new and ongoing support from across the province. We are honoured by the trust that new members, returning membership, non-NDPers and party stalwarts such as Floyd have placed in my leadership and my vision for Ontario," said Mr. Prue.

He added that the 1500 new members his team signed up and the diverse coalition of supporters he is assembling positions Mr. Prue as the candidate best prepared to win a "One Member, One Vote campaign" vote by members that starts on February 20th and concludes at the Party's convention in Hamilton on March 7th.

 

"Floyd's decision to endorse me shows the depth of our support in all regions of Ontario, from all walks of life. It is extremely gratifying to see the diversity and strength of the coalition we continue to assemble. From former cabinet ministers, MPPs and speakers like Floyd, Marilyn Churley, Paul Miller and David Warner, to leaders in the CAW, from Toronto, Ottawa and London city councillors to labour council presidents to school trustees in Windsor, Hamilton, Ottawa, Bluewater and Toronto and from new Canadians to party-affiliated and non-affiliated labour unions, our coalition is the broadest and the deepest of all four candidates. When every single vote counts, your breadth and depth is what matters most," Mr. Prue said.

"We are working hard over the next 26 days, criss-crossing the province, to promote my "Cities Power Regions" plan and my ideas to modernize our Party and its funding so that we can deliver this province results we've never had before," he added.

 

Mr. Laughren is currently vacationing in Florida and unavailable for comment.

aka Mycroft

Given Moishe and David Lewis' political origins perhaps "The Bund" would be an apt descriptor :)

(Read David Lewis' excellent biography or read up on family patriarch Moishe Lewis who was a Bund leader in his hometown in Belorussia and was also an important figure in the Canadian labour movement as a leader of the Jewish Labour Committee in Canada for many years. The Labour Committee was started by Canadian Bundists and played an incredibly important role in the Canadian civl rights movement in particular.)

spincycle

Sunday Hat, sure I'll bite.  Here are three descriptors to get you going; 'long time workers' or 'party loyalists' or 'ndp activists' or (fill in any number of blanks) .

 

Want to call them the "Lewis family"? Well that's fine too but when you tie the family name to 'party elite' you do both the family and and the party a disservice.

 

And again, Steel, is supporting more than one candidate in this race.

janfromthebruce

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
The day amalgamating actually saves money will be the first time it does.  Ask Mike Harris how that works.

The differences between amalgamating across diverse geographical areas is quite different than consolidating across the same geograhpical area in this regard, but I assume you would know that. Presently, and as I have said before, and as a duly elected public school board trustee, we essentially have 4 funded school systems (English and French public school boards AND English and French Catholic School boards) serving the same geographical areas of population and competing for the same DECLINING student population. Thus 4 systems duplicate the same resources, administration, and infrastructure. Thus in the area I serve in for example, the taxpayers fund 2 administrative buildings, and also duplicate administrative personal.  One may ask this question: why are individual school board's consolidating schools in their areas if not to "save money" and not "duplicate resources" and not "spread thin program needs" of students? Thus consolidating across geograhically shared areas would make sense from a educational "programming need" and "resource need."

Also, I can remember when our board financial super also didn't think that colidation would not save money, but when that individual, using provincially publically available data for our two boards, consolidated virually, just due to all the surplus space in both boards, was unbelievably surprised with the money saved and able to put back into a system that actually put students first. 

 

 

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

JMasse

Sunday Hat wrote:

spincycle, despite my best efforts to prevent offense I've somehow offended you. I wasn't implying that people don't work hard and don't contribute. I was merely noting that there is a gagle of former provincial secretaries and party staffers endorsing Tabuns. 

There are also a lot of individual party members supporting Peter.

janfromthebruce

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Really in no need of lectures on education with three kids in elementary school.

What I am pointing out is that the claim that there are some huge mythical savings in scrapping the Catholic school boards across the province is dumb ass stupid.  The next time amalgamating actually saves money will be the first.  People like you are making the EXACT same promise that Harris made on municipalities as a justification for foolish policies. 

What next getting rid of Catholic boards will allow us to turn lead into gold?

Source for your assertion that there are mythical costs savings? I actually have a powerpoint that shows this for 2 boards who share the same geographical area. 

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Sunday Hat

spincycle, seriously, take a pill. I'll stick to "party activists". Please stop being outraged.

On another note:

NDP leadership hopefuls sound like ToriesBy ANTONELLA ARTUSO, QUEEN'S PARK BUREAU CHIEF Last Updated: 10th February 2009, 4: 

Corporate tax cuts -- normally a favoured policy of right-wing parties -- have emerged as an unlikely debating point for NDP leadership candidates.  Hamilton Centre MPP Andrea Horwath said yesterday that she disagrees strongly with leadership contenders who believe the party should endorse corporate tax cuts -- a policy that is more commonly associated with the provincial Liberals and Conservatives.   

"My opponents are wrong when they say it's time for more corporate tax giveaways," Horwath said. "I believe targeted sectoral investment is the way to go, but certainly not across-the-board tax cuts. That's not helped us in any way and it's not saved jobs over the last 10 years in this province."  

Horwath and three of her fellow New Democrat MPPs -- Michael Prue, Gilles Bisson and Peter Tabuns -- are vying to replace outgoing party leader Howard Hampton at a March 6-8 convention in Hamilton.  Prue (Beaches-East York) and Bisson (Timmins-James Bay) have both indicated they would support corporate tax cuts as a measure to stimulate the economy.   

Prue said he'd like to see breaks for struggling industries like manufacturing and forestry to save jobs. "I'm not going to give corporate tax cuts to profitable corporations like the banks and the oil companies," he said. "I'm not doing it across the board. That's Tory talk. That's craziness."  

Horwath, who's proposing direct taxpayer investment to sustain and create new industries, said a government that cuts corporate taxes won't be in a position to help vulnerable people, particularly women, with support programs.  "I think that there's a lot of crowding already in the (political) centre and in the right, and I don't believe that's where New Democrats need to go," she said.

Lord Palmerston

Good for Horwath - she is absolutely right and Prue is wrong when it comes to corprate tax cuts.

JMasse

Wow, kudos to Andrea for calling that one out. Ive always wondered about that Prue "plank". Albeit a little extreme.

Bookish Agrarian

Jan there are lots of arguments that support eliminating Catholic school boards that are compelling.  However, the pretense that there will be some huge saving, as the poster I was responding to suggested, is not one of them.

Those same sorts of arguments were being made about municpalities.  The agruments are exactly the same.  True there were no power points then, but as a municipal union president I clearly remember getting a nice little binder with all kinds of pretty graphs and charts showing how we would all save oodles of money.  Thing is not one of them turned out to be true.  Those things never consider all the hidden costs of eliminating positions, closing down buildings, and on and on and on.

Stay on the issues that resonate if you want to convince people on this issue.  For some of us, when it comes to the massive savings eliminating something is supposed to cause- we have been there, done that and now our t-shirts are paint rags.

 

And besides have a look around Ontario lost 71,000 jobs just last month. Do you really think the average person gives a fiddlers damn about having a protracted, divisive issue like this dominating discussions.

Lord Palmerston

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Jan there are lots of arguments that support eliminating Catholic school boards that are compelling.  However, the pretense that there will be some huge saving, as the poster I was responding to suggested, is not one of them.

I'm not motivated at all by the cost savings argument.  Maybe they will, maybe they won't.  My objection to separate school funding is based on secularism, diversity and opposition to discrimination.

Bookish Agrarian

Hooray for Horwath for showing the real kind of leadership we need.

Bookish Agrarian

Lord Palmerston wrote:
Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Jan there are lots of arguments that support eliminating Catholic school boards that are compelling.  However, the pretense that there will be some huge saving, as the poster I was responding to suggested, is not one of them.

I'm not motivated at all by the cost savings argument.  Maybe they will, maybe they won't.  My objection to separate school funding is based on secularism, diversity and opposition to discrimination.

Which I would argue are perfectly legitimate and compelling arguments to make, unlike so-called cost savings.   People can choose to accept or not accept them, but at least they are on solid ground.

Lost in Bruce County

Tabuns does have the support of the party's elite - it's a closed, small group of people who have too much influence over the party's direction. And for quite some time now the ONDP, with the elite's influence, have been heading in the direction of a slow death march.

I hope anyone but Tabuns gets in because we desperately need a fresh, new direction. We need party reform inside and out. We need someone that is not tied to the party elite - who can and will allow fresh new ideas to immerge and allow old ideas that are constantly kept on the backburner (like race, gender and student issues) to come to fruition. We need a leader who is willing and able to put an end to sexism that operates within our caucus. We need a leader that is willing and able to put an end to anti-labour practices against our own staff. And we need a leader that is willing and able to take an active role in ensuring our party's most vulnerable have an equal voice, are equally heard and most importantly that these issues have equal weight in the party's agenda. We need a leader who has a clean track record who has the credibility to make our party uphold our own values. This party needs to re-grow itself and it must start by winning back the support it lost by selling out labour, by not taking a stand on tough issues, and by putting less popular issues on the backburner. We cannot afford to take our support base for granted anymore. We must win them back. We need a leader who will not govern by fear but by our party's principles and that is what you'll get with Michael Prue.

Lord Palmerston

I don't see how corporate tax cuts and reaching out to business are exactly bedrock social democratic principles.

Lost in Bruce County

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
And besides have a look around Ontario lost 71,000 jobs just last month. Do you really think the average person gives a fiddlers damn about having a protracted, divisive issue like this dominating discussions.

Massive job loss is exactly why we need to have the single-education system discussion. Education is the second biggest pocket that the Province pays out to. If we reduce the duplication of administrative and infrastructure costs we will be able to hire more teachers. This is especially important because teaching is a female dominated profession and right now almost all of the economic stimulus money is directed at male-dominated jobs. A single-education system is about fairness and equality, but it's also about job creation and female-dominated job creation. This is a win-win situation.

Sunday Hat
Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

Sisters for Andrea

It was Nellie McClung who said, "No nation rises higher than its women."

Equal Voice, in leading the call nationally to elect more women for the good of society, has this to add:

"Once a leader, Canada, with just 64 women in Parliament - 22.4 per cent of MPs -- now ranks 46th in the world on Inter-Parliamentary Union, "List of Women in National Parliaments." ...Canada now has fewer women in parliament than most of Europe."

Until we see women elected with the same regularity as men, the goal of gender parity in politics will remain illusive and women's voices will be missing from the decisions that affect our lives. As McClung would have been quick to note, we have an opportunity right now to "rise higher" as a province by helping to elect Andrea Horwath, the feisty, young and highly capable MPP from Hamilton as leader of the Ontario NDP.

For those of you who don't know Andrea Horwath, she's a forceful and dynamic advocate for social and economic justice - fresh, energetic, incredibly accomplished and an inspiring presence in politics for two decades as a grassroots activist, Hamilton City Councillor and Member of Provincial Parliament.

In the past five years Andrea's work in the legislature exposed neglect in long-term care and nursing homes, pioneered a bill to outlaw workplace harassment, led to compensation for firefighters who become seriously ill due to toxins, conducted a 10-city provincial tour on pension reform and ardently championed not-for-profit, affordable childcare at Queen's Park.

Pay equity, action on affordable housing, a minimum wage that's a living wage, licensed child care, appropriate resources to end violence against women - these are some of the important concerns Andrea continues to champion.

When we review the state of home care, elder care, childcare, public education and hospital funding, and we see the most vulnerable being pushed to the margins by inadequate assistance programs, we know there's a huge amount of work to be done. Now more than ever, a woman's voice in leadership is what Ontario needs.

It's time for Andrea Horwath to lead. By donating to her campaign, you are investing in your future and the future of Ontario. Make a donation online at www.andreahorwath.com or send a cheque payable to:

Andrea Horwath for Leader
1120 Barton St E. Unit 100,
Hamilton, ON L8H 7P9

Sisters - let us ‘rise up' and support a leader who is ready, willing and able to take on these challenges.

You can make it happen with these 4 easy steps:
- send a donation
- send this letter to 5 others
- email Andrea at [email protected] and let her know she has your support
- vote for Andrea!

Let us all endorse the first woman premier of Ontario.

Isn't it time?

In Solidarity,

Irene Harris, Secretary/Treasurer OFL
Sharleen Stewart, President SEIU Local 1
Barb Burkett, ETFO Vice President
Yolanda McClean, Equity VP, CUPE Local 4400
Leah Casselman, Executive Director, OHCOW-Hamilton
Maureen Giuliani, CUPE Ontario, Campaigns Coordinator
Carrol Ann Sceviour, OFL Director Women's Rights
Patty Rout, VP OPSEU
Nancy Pridham, OPSEU Executive
Candace Rennick, 2nd VP CUPE
June Veecock, OFL (retired)
Marie Kelly, USW
Sue Slean, CEP 975
Chitra Kanhere, CUPE
Janice Folk-Dawson, CUPE
Laura Lozanski, COPE 225
Carrie Robinson, USW
Brenda Smith, USW
Women of Steel, Hamilton
Hilda Watkins, ETFO Executive
Cindy Falcao, OPSEU - VP Local 201
Cathy Carroll, Secretary Treasurer SEIU Local1 Canada
Andrea Calver
Sheila Block, OFL, Research Director
Maureen Prebinski, Canadian Labour Congress
Elaine MacDonald, President Cornwall District LC
Sue McSheffrey, OPSEU, President Renfrew and District LC
Doris Middleton, OPSEU Region 3 VP/Executive Board Member
Vicky Smallman, Canadian Association of University Teacher

 

 

Stockholm

"Tabuns does have the support of the party's elite - it's a closed, small group of people who have too much influence over the party's direction. And for quite some time now the ONDP, with the elite's influence, have been heading in the direction of a slow death march."

Let's keep in mind that the last time the ONDP chose a leader, the so-called party elites were almost all backing Frances Lankin. Hampton was actually the anti-establishment candidate...and it has been a slow death march ever since. Maybe the "elites" actually do know a thing or two about what has to be done and its time to make up for the 1996 mistake.

George Victor

Too many intervening variables to let  your thesis go unchallenged, Stock.Smile

Stockholm

then go ahead and challenge it.

alphasix actual

Lord Palmerston wrote:
I don't see how corporate tax cuts and reaching out to business are exactly bedrock social democratic principles.

So I take it all corporations are bad as is all business.

 What about small business, what about starting up a small private daycare in an under served region.

It's far to easy to chant slogans from the sidelines and make generalizations. I don't believe Michael is offering a sweetheart deal to Walmart or Rogers for that matter. As many posters have pointed out we need to address job losses now, not in some Utopian future. Simply talking about being Green is truly a one trick pony.

madmax

The Floyd endorsement has me laughing. Away in Florida??? Is that true or a joke? If true, I am certain online voting will bring democracy all the way from beautiful sunny Florida.............

Who presents themselves the most capable to take on Dalton McGuinty?  

Who seriously believes that fighting the Liberals on ANY issue involving "Education" is going to win an election for the NDP? Should the NDP fight the next election on turf the Liberals own?

If the answer to that question is, NO, we don't want to fight the Liberals in a field that they completely dominate, then expect EDUCATION to be the turf that Liberals will choose to fight the next election. It is their Royal Flush to a 3rd Majority.

Why do so many New Democrats.... the party of the "working class" ignore catastrophic job losses?  The Job loss figures in January are the highest unemployment stats since records were kept.  Does no one see that this cumulative effect of job losses in Ontario is now spiralling out of control?

MOMMY AND DADDY are losing their jobs........ 

synthome

Prue's shills offer no end of amusement.  Lost in Bruce County, you're projecting a lot on bile onto poor Peter Tabuns. He's the source of sexism in the caucus, and grave injustices perpetrated against staff of which we'll all hear in a mythical report to be released at some indefinite point in the future but which definitely will reveal that Tabuns is the devil himself. Although my favourite is the insinuation that Tabuns is responsible for lost support from "Labour". Rivalled only by your misguided notion that Prue somehow carries a "clean track record". Give me a break!

MEANWHILE ED BROADBENT, YES THAT ED BROADBENT, HAS OFFICIALLY ENDORSED PETER TABUNS!

Lost in Bruce County

Synthome - please don't put words in my mouth. I never accused "poor peter" of the sexism at Queens Park, anti-labour practices with our own staff, and the breakdown with our relationship with labour. I simply said that we need a leader WHO CAN restore our relation with labour, will put an end to the sexism at Queens Park, and will put an end to the anti-labour practices with our own staff. I don't think Tabuns can. I think the other candidates are far better positions to restore our party than poor peter. As for poor peter - I reserve my pity for all the workers he locked out and for his staff that he wrongfully dismissed.

alphasix actual

synthome wrote:

Prue's shills offer no end of amusement.  Lost in Bruce County, you're projecting a lot on bile onto poor Peter Tabuns. He's the source of sexism in the caucus, and grave injustices perpetrated against staff of which we'll all hear in a mythical report to be released at some indefinite point in the future but which definitely will reveal that Tabuns is the devil himself. Although my favourite is the insinuation that Tabuns is responsible for lost support from "Labour". Rivalled only by your misguided notion that Prue somehow carries a "clean track record". Give me a break!

MEANWHILE ED BROADBENT, YES THAT ED BROADBENT, HAS OFFICIALLY ENDORSED PETER TABUNS!

Well as you all know it's one member one vote so, with Mr. Broadbent ( a man who has done great work for the Party ) giving Peter his support that's one whole vote for Peter. Keep on rockin in the free world.

synthome

Lost in Bruce County... Not directly responsible but just not willing to do anything about those injustices. Correction, the least willing to do anything. Have I got it right this time? Please! And, do you really think Prue's track record is that squeaky clean? If you've been around the ONDP long enough, you ought to know better.

Personally speaking, we're lucky to have the strong candidates that we have vying for a very formidable and ultimately thankless challenge of making this party relevant again. Clumsily deriding these candidates is cynical and distasteful. Perhaps shills around here, a la the leaders debate, should first discuss qualities of rival candidates which they admire. Off the top of my head:

Prue: Ambitious, performs well in the legislature, measured, convincing speaker

Bisson: Experienced, affable and humorous, gentle and relaxed manner, 

Horwath:  Professional, feisty, confident

foxymoron

synth, must you always be the little troll you accuse others of being? You reek of the sanctimony that turns so many off of the candidate you continually deny you shill for. your insistence on saying the opposite of everything you actually do.

i also find it interesting that you never directly deny the many offences to which your candidate is accused. you always just employ misdirection. 'well, so what if my guy has issues? you think your guy doesn't have issues?'

that's not the 'issue'.

the 'issue' is that fact that your candidate has so many 'issues' that are a matter of public record.

that he also apparently has an 'issue' with responding to a question he clearly should been prepped for weeks ago, as evidenced by his Palin-esque response to a Sun reporter's query has only cemented the Liberal Party's burning desire for Peter to win.

Not even Broadbent will save him now.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

Lost in Bruce County wrote:
We need a leader who is willing and able to put an end to sexism that operates within our caucus.... and that is what you'll get with Michael Prue.

Um, wouldn't the best way to end the "sexism that operates within our caucus" be to elect our first female leader? It's been 76 years.

alphasix actual

Is it not the epitome of sexism to elect someone based on their sex? You cannot have it both ways, or have we become so progressive that we have entered the realm of doublethink.

synthome

foxyM: I'd say the sine qua non of trolling in this instance is registering a mere few weeks ago, solely for the purpose of shilling for your candidate. I've never denied shilling for Peter Tabuns (after considering all four candidates, I simply believe Tabuns best epitomizes what I'd like to see the NDP of the future become (policy driven, intelligent, articulate, Leftist, Green, urban etc.). What I have denied, and I seriously doubt that you could do likewise regarding Michael Prue, is that I have ever worked or volunteered on any of Tabuns' campaigns.

Of the heaps of issues of which you accuse Tabuns there seems to be on public record the GreenPeace labour dispute and his not taking on EA. I have never denied that it happened. Personally I know very little about it. I have simply questioned the sincerity of some people's motives, and their generosity of interpretation, not to mention their haste in tarring Tabuns as anti-Labour. Similarly, we know precious little about Tabuns' staffing situation. But I do take umbrage with the unfounded accusation that there were financial improprieties and diverting of funds wrongfully, something which will be confirmed by a mythical report at some future date. Some of the accusations came close to alleging criminal/ illegal activity and to do so on the faith of a future hearing is nasty and cynical.

To paint any of the candidates as anti-Labour is simply insincere and insolent, especially following the NDP's courageous recent defense of democracy, education, and workers in this province.

Now, I've previously pointed to two "issues" of public record which in my view cast aspersions on Prue's character. I don't feel the need to repeat them over and over, but I will say Prue's newfound "third way" enlightened corporate sympathy jibes with his implicit support of MPP extravagant salary increases a couple of years back. Maybe next he could praise Blair's decision to take England into Iraq.

Then there's the matter of Prue's own labour relations past, replete with innuendo which I won't repeat, but you've incited me to go digging and if I find evidence of any grievances, I'll make sure to post them here, as Tabuns' detractors has been so kind to do in their zeal to discredit him.

Tabuns certainly doesn't need Ed Broadbent to save him, but Broadbent's endorsement certainly confirms my choice for Tabuns for the next leader of the NDP.

 

janfromthebruce

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Jan there are lots of arguments that support eliminating Catholic school boards that are compelling.  However, the pretense that there will be some huge saving, as the poster I was responding to suggested, is not one of them.

Those same sorts of arguments were being made about municpalities.  The agruments are exactly the same.  True there were no power points then, but as a municipal union president I clearly remember getting a nice little binder with all kinds of pretty graphs and charts showing how we would all save oodles of money.  Thing is not one of them turned out to be true.  Those things never consider all the hidden costs of eliminating positions, closing down buildings, and on and on and on.

Stay on the issues that resonate if you want to convince people on this issue.  For some of us, when it comes to the massive savings eliminating something is supposed to cause- we have been there, done that and now our t-shirts are paint rags.

 

And besides have a look around Ontario lost 71,000 jobs just last month. Do you really think the average person gives a fiddlers damn about having a protracted, divisive issue like this dominating discussions.

 Consolidation is quite different than eliminating. As stated before, the financial officer who actually looked at it was quite scepital before he actually spun the numbers. The savings would actually end up creating more front-line teaching positions in classroom rather than on infrastructure. 

Of course, I am aware of those cute little power points, as a real trustee who actually has to make those tough decisions and represent kids and parents. But let's ignore the difference inherent in consolidation within same geographical areas that serve the same student population as opposed to consolidation across different geographical areas that serve two different student populations. 

I guess your saying that the Ontario Public School Boards’ Association (which represents 72 public school boards and school authorities) and Association des conseillers(eres) des ecoles publiques de L’Ontario who are all on record as supporting one school system in both official languages; as well as OSSTF, as well as the Federal NDP who are also on record as supporting one school system, are all wet behind the ears. I guess that's ditto for the United Nations Human Rights Committee which censured Canada in 1999 and again in 2005 for allowing discrimination on the basis of religion in the funding of schools in Ontario.
I guess it's not rational to look at surplus space in schools, and for a minute ignore the archaic designation, and consolidate based on programming needs of all students. Thus by extension, one should ignore surplus space within schools, overall.
When I talk with student trustees they want an elimination of costly school fees for some courses and for extracurricular activities. Ditto for parents who are now being hit with job losses (as you rightly point out). It is about equity and fairness. Consolidating the best buildings and ensuring each community has a school would leave money for what students and parents say are their priorities, and incidentally that is true for all parents surveyed across all 4 systems.

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

janfromthebruce

To be clear, I have stated the underlying principle of supporting one school system in both official languages is based on New Democratic values and principles that advocate and support equality and equity for all Ontarians in the delivery of public services. Religious segregation of Ontario children undermines the role of public schools in fostering tolerance and mutual respect between all students that would be nurtured by such a system and would result in a better society, and Ontarians of different backgrounds.

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

Bookish Agrarian

Jan you and I both know that you are more than smart enough to know that those numbers are not beleivable.  The costs of consolidation are no different in a geographic area as they were for municipalities (also geographic areas).  The hidden costs will likely outweigh the savings, or at least make them miniscule.  Histroy has shown that over and over when these things are done.  As I have repeatedly said there are lots of strong arguments on this issue- cost savings is not one of them.

And frankly I am getting tired of supporters of eliminating the seperate school board treating those who are skeptical of the benefits as if we are some kind of throw back Cro-magnons.  The last refuge of the scurrilous is to browbeat those who happen to disagree.

janfromthebruce

Actually, BA, those numbers are actually higher. This was crudely done by the financial superintendent, where he said he didn't even take into consideration consolidated bussing costs or if we got the superior funding of other cotermious board, it would be higher. 

Actually I'm sick of sceptics not even considering the financial incentives. Have you ever wondered why our provincial govt has not actually disproved this? Because they actually know the public would be irate at the sheer waste and duplication. 

As was revealed in the last election by Mr. Snobelton in an article in the Ottawa Citizen, the whole creation of 4 systems and the funding formula was to create competition between school boards. It was not about equity and fairness. That was 1995. What was not on the radar was the "declining student enrolment" coming our way. 

Of course, not sure why again, if this is not true across school boards who share the same geographic area and student population, than why are school boards considering consolidation, with boards across the province closing schools that are half full, and within their own school jurisdictions? 

Why are school boards creating partnerships with their coterminous boards in sharing transportation, purchasing, some programs and so on? It has to do with serving the same geographical area and the same student population. It appears that sharing buildings only makes sense in the end, and eventually the classroom. 

And I am tired of the same tired rhetorical language of "eliminating" rather than using consolidation. I notice your too cute by half comment and yes, that was offensive.

Anyway, BA you know as well as I do, that this is underpinned by equity and fairness.

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

scarboroughnative

FYI I think there is a different thread for the never ending chicken or the egg school debate. Which is why council and our party elders have time and time again closed debate proceedings on this topic.

alphasix actual

What I find interesting is how much spin has been put on the statement, "we the members should be able to debate what ever we want".

 What has come out of this exercise is to what lengths some candidate's supporters will go to try to manipulate and obscure facts to influence opinion. I take it for some vested interests this practice is business as usual.

I think as members we really need to think about who out of the 4 candidates our Liberal and Conservative, (I discount the Greens because for the most part I consider them a flash in the pan like some adolescent protest vote) neighbours would vote for. I think that's Prue.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

An outside observer says anecdotally, Horwath is the best choice. 

scarboroughnative

horwath= inexperienced.  With some development she'll be a good fit in a decade or slightly less.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

alphasix actual wrote:
Is it not the epitome of sexism to elect someone based on their sex?

 You might have a good point there.... if I or anyone else had argued that. I was responding to the nonsensical suggestion that electing Prue would put an end to sexism in the caucus.

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

scarboroughnative wrote:
horwath= inexperienced.  With some development she'll be a good fit in a decade or slightly less.

Let's examine that equation, shall we?

Horwath: worked in a housing co-op

Tabuns: worked in a housing co-op

Horwath: worked in a legal clinic

Bisson: worked on a workplace literacy program

Horwath: co-chaired the Hamilton Days of Action

Other candidates: attended the Hamilton Days of Action (presumably)

Horwath: sat on Hamilton City Council for seven years, after defeating a longterm right wing incumbent

Tabuns: sat on Toronto City Council for seven years, originally winning a by-election in a seat previously held by Marilyn Churley, then losing the seat in the first mega-city election

Prue: sat on East York and Toronto City Council, serving as Borough Mayor for four years (first being appointed after the incumbent was elected to Queen's Park and then winning re-election in the final East York mayoralty vote).

Horwath: ran federally in 1997, finishing a surprisingly stong second.

Tabuns: ran federally in 2004, also finishing second.

Horwath: elected in a 2004 by-election in a seat that had only six months before returned a Liberal with 65% of the vote (restoring party status)

Bisson: elected in the 1990 NDP landslide (at least, in terms of FPTP).

Prue: elected in a 2002 by-election in a seat that the NDP had held since the 1970s.

Tabuns: elected in a 2002 by-election in a seat that the NDP had held since the 1960s.

So, you were saying?

 

 

northwestern_lad

Scott Piatkowski wrote:

scarboroughnative wrote:
horwath= inexperienced.  With some development she'll be a good fit in a decade or slightly less.

Let's examine that equation, shall we?

 

 

Bisson: worked on a workplace literacy program....

 

Horwath: elected in a 2004 by-election in a seat that had only six months before returned a Liberal with 65% of the vote (restoring party status)

Bisson: elected in the 1990 NDP landslide (at least, in terms of FPTP).

Okay, I must respectfully take issue with a couple of things here. First of all, Mr. Bisson has done much more than just "work on a workplace literacy program" in his life before QP:

- He was a teacher (taught shop),

- an electrician,

- in the air force,

- an advocate for workers health and safety

- staffer with both the Steelworkers and the OFL

Oh yeah, and since 1990 when Mr. Bisson was elected, he's consistently won with over 50% of the vote, which is impressive regardless of what ever system of voting that you use. The fact that he was first elected in 1990 shouldn't and doesn't diminish the win, just as winning a by-election against an incumbent government when by-elections usually don't go in favour of the government shouldn't be used against those who win those. The important fact is that Mr. Bisson didn't just hold in since, he increased his vote totals and kept on winning in the worst of times for this party. That didn't just happen.

And as for the whole by-election thing, by-election results are usually a bit different and by using that logic, I could say that because Ms. Horwath only got  44.6% in the 2007 general election that she's loosing support, because comparing by-elections to general elections can be a lot like "apples and oranges" but I wouldn't do that because I'm trying to be fair here Laughing

Finally, the regaining whole party status part is really a red herring because just happening to be the person who was elected to get us to that number is, to be polite about it, about being in the right place and the right time. It could have been anyone who was in that position. That's not an attempt on my part to diminish Ms. Horwath, but in all fairness, that's not a reason to make anyone leader of any party.

We need a leader who can actually build up the grassroots and the party from the bottom up, and the person who has actually done that is Mr. Bisson. Just look at all the new members he brought to the party in this race and his efforts to make ridings stronger in the North brought us a sweep of that region, with 7 mps. When it comes down to brass tacks, I want the person with the experience in doing such things, and that in my opinion is Gilles Bisson.

Bookish Agrarian

I like Gilles, but if we are going to look at the whole package, lets remember he sat in caucus quietly while fundamental issues like public auto insurance were abandoned.  In other words history cuts both ways.  I also think running on negatives is not the way to build the party for the future.

 

To call Andrea Horwath inexperienced is silly.  Here is a 40 something woman who has accomplished much in her life.  She is not a 14 year old trying out for Canadian Idol.  I have to wonder whether 'she's inexperienced" is not some kind of code word.  I would have thought we are past that in 2009, but maybe not.

Sunday Hat

scarboroughnative wrote:
horwath= inexperienced.  With some development she'll be a good fit in a decade or slightly less.
Hmmm.

If we want "experience" we probably should be asking Hampton to stay. Unlike some other "experienced" candidates he actually made Cabinet in the early 90s.

 ** snap! ***

Seriously, we've seen this movie before: Obama vs. Clinton; Layton vs. Blaikie. Experience is good but sometimes it's time to try something different.

scarboroughnative

"Inexperienced" when gauged in proportional terms to her fellow candidates.

No code words here just cold hard facts.  

Certainly she is more experienced politically than anyone who is not in the "game" but it is important to note that she is the junior player on the field. 

This may be a strength or a weakness but I suspect that a party membership that has an aging demographic  may see her as not ready yet for a leadership role.

Also her memberhship drive results were rather uninspiring.

 

 

Sunday Hat

Can we burst one bit of bizarre mythology right now?

No candidate has produced any membership drive results.

The Bisson campaign has issued a release touting the growth of membership in Timmins-James Bay (relative to Hamilton Centre, Toronto Danforth and Beaches) and has declared that he has therefore signed up more members.

However, that assumes that the Leadership contenders have only recruited in their own ridings which is, of course, ridiculous. Horwath, Tabuns and Prue have all been travelling the province signing up new members in Kingston, Ottawa, Windsor, Oshawa, etc. In fact, it's likely that some of the new members in Timmins were signed up by one of the other leadership camps.

I can only conclude that Gilles focussed his recruitment drive exclusively in his own backyard - which is a sad state of affairs if true.

Furthermore, I'm not sure he should be bragging about the fact that his riding only 258 members as of last year. If you let your riding association languish it's easy to claim dramatic growth - but I'm not sure it's something you should be proud of.

Pages

Topic locked