What is wrong with MPs? More Women Level Complaints about sexual misconduct

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NorthReport

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NorthReport

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jjuares

Pondering wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Unionist wrote:

jjuares wrote:
It's time this is just dropped as a partisan political issue.

The time for that was when the incident first surfaced. But yes, better late than never.

That depends on what you mean. Women's rights are an important political issue to me. The way in which the parties handle issues of harassment matters.

I mean, countless posts here, and countless statements by politicians in the media, have depended solely on which political party some individual blindly, mindlessly, religiously cheerleads for. That's a guarantee that the rights of women to be safe from harassment and abuse will be sacrificed on the altar of power, money, and cliquishness. Tell me you don't know what I'm talking about. I need a hearty laugh.

Is the discourse on ISIS better? I can see for myself the way the two parties treated this topic. I watched it unfold day after day. I agreed with Elizabeth May and as the events unfolded her words proved to be true.


Perhaps instead of rehashing this you could elaborate about the successes of Hitler and where he committed the "overreach" you spoke of. You didn't give us any details and you know it's been a long time since I heard positive words spoken about Hitler. I am sure your novel viewpoint would very entertaining. Now that I would like to hear about.

NorthReport

Wow!

Just heard a devastating report on Vancouver cbc radio, of all places, right after the Tom Mulcair interview around 5:20 PM, about how badly Trudeau has mismanaged this harassment situation:

Initially by going public with the issue. 

Why did Trudeau ever do that with no warning to the victims?

And last nite by leaking it to the press, CTV actually, before notifying the victims, and before notifying the Liberal MPs.

They suggested that Trudeau is just doing things without thinking them through.

And then they said it is left to other Liberals to clean up his mess.

They finalized the subject by saying that there is growing concern that Trudeau is perhaps not ready for prime time.

The conversation kinda reminded me about Carol Goar's column a few weeks ago questioning the same thing.

And yes pondering, they actually did say that - check it out.

Pondering

jjuares wrote:
Pondering wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Unionist wrote:

jjuares wrote:
It's time this is just dropped as a partisan political issue.

The time for that was when the incident first surfaced. But yes, better late than never.

That depends on what you mean. Women's rights are an important political issue to me. The way in which the parties handle issues of harassment matters.

I mean, countless posts here, and countless statements by politicians in the media, have depended solely on which political party some individual blindly, mindlessly, religiously cheerleads for. That's a guarantee that the rights of women to be safe from harassment and abuse will be sacrificed on the altar of power, money, and cliquishness. Tell me you don't know what I'm talking about. I need a hearty laugh.

Is the discourse on ISIS better? I can see for myself the way the two parties treated this topic. I watched it unfold day after day. I agreed with Elizabeth May and as the events unfolded her words proved to be true.

Perhaps instead of rehashing this you could elaborate about the successes of Hitler and where he committed the "overreach" you spoke of. You didn't give us any details and you know it's been a long time since I heard positive words spoken about Hitler. I am sure your novel viewpoint would very entertaining. Now that I would like to hear about.

If Hitler had been a failure as a leader there wouldn't have been a Holocaust.

 

Jacob Two-Two

Usually I'm all for beating an issue into the ground, but seeing as the targets of this incident made it clear they just wanted to put this behind them and have the story die, I really feel that I'd have to have something pretty valuable to say about this to justify my bringing it up. I'm as guilty as anyone of the partisan bickering that goes on here, but there are some subjects it is appropriate for and some that should be left alone.

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

If Hitler had been a failure as a leader there wouldn't have been a Holocaust.

Surprised

You just said the Holocaust proves Hitler was a success as a leader.

I am astounded by this absolutely breathtaking comment.

Hitler achieved power and that power brought him to his own death, brought his country and many of its people to death and/or ruin, and he engineered the crime of the millenium while directing the most horrific war humans have ever seen. Along the way his military incompetance wiped out one of the largest invasion forces ever mounted (in Russia). I would say that he was an utter failure as a leader. His obsessions and hatred that led to the Holocaust were every bit central to his failure as a human being AND as a leader.

I never thought I would have to argue this with anyone who is not a self-proclaimed Nazi.

Unionist

Ok, I'm getting confused.

How would Hitler have handled sexual assault allegations by one MP against another? Is that where we're at?

I always thought it was: "What would Jesus do?"

 

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Pondering wrote:

If Hitler had been a failure as a leader there wouldn't have been a Holocaust.

Surprised

You just said the Holocaust proves Hitler was a success as a leader.

I am astounded by this absolutely breathtaking comment.

Hitler achieved power and that power brought him to his own death, brought his country and many of its people to death and/or ruin, and he engineered the crime of the millenium while directing the most horrific war humans have ever seen. Along the way his military incompetance wiped out one of the largest invasion forces ever mounted (in Russia). I would say that he was an utter failure as a leader. His obsessions and hatred that led to the Holocaust were every bit central to his failure as a human being AND as a leader.

I never thought I would have to argue this with anyone who is not a self-proclaimed Nazi.

There is a difference between leadership ability and morality. I hate what Harper has done to Canada but he is a skilled politician. Likewise I hate what Hitler did but recognize his skill as a leader. 

You can put away your pearls now. 

Pondering

NorthReport wrote:

And what about the way the victims were treated when this first story first broke? 

What amends are the Liberals going to make to them now?

The Liberals treated the victims with the utmost respect. It is the NDP that should be hanging it's head in shame for using them. 

Jacob Two-Two

And what about the way you're using them right now? Any shame over that?

Pondering

Jacob Two-Two wrote:
And what about the way you're using them right now? Any shame over that?

It is the NDP that launched an attack on the Liberals using the women and kept pounding the issue in the news for a month releasing more information in every interview. Condemning them for doing so is not using the women.

The women themselves are our lawmakers. They chose to make a great deal of information public. That opens it up to discussion.

 

NorthReport

Trudeau, maybe out of fear that it was some kind of NDP trap, made it public, another error in judgement,  and everyone knows that.

As it turns out there are now at least 4 women who have made complaints so we can presume there are probably others as well who prefer to keep it to themselves.

Pondering wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

And what about the way the victims were treated when this first story first broke? 

What amends are the Liberals going to make to them now?

The Liberals treated the victims with the utmost respect. It is the NDP that should be hanging it's head in shame for using them. 

NorthReport

The thread title maybe was incorrect as this applies across all party lines.

 

Debater

So after several pages of making wild accusations and smears, now you say that the thread title "maybe was incorrect"?

nicky

Debater, don't be so quick to denigrate Stockholm's information. I have heard similar rumours. If you are the Liberal insider you pretend to be I suspect yopu have heard them too.

NorthReport

Stop with your constant and obsessive distortion of what people say.

What I said was: The thread title maybe was incorrect as this applies across all party lines.

Not taking anything back about the Trudeau Liberals, just saying no party has clean hands.

Debater wrote:

So after several pages of making wild accusations and smears, now you say that the thread title "maybe was incorrect"?

Debater

Nicky, I haven't heard any credible sexual harassment rumours involving a star candidate.  I'm not sure why it was even brought up.  The current issue is contentious enough without people bringing in unverified rumours to this thread.

I'm trying to stay on the topic of the investigation by the human rights lawyer into the current matter.

Debater

Statement by Liberal Party of Canada Leader Justin Trudeau on allegations against two Members of Parliament

March 19, 2015

MONTREAL – The Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, Justin Trudeau, today issued the following statement on the independent review into allegations of misconduct by two Members of Parliament:

“I have received the complete findings of human rights lawyer Cynthia Petersen’s independent review into allegations of serious, personal misconduct by two Members of Parliament.

“Diligence and confidentiality were imperative to this review, and I thank Ms. Petersen for her exemplary work. Having served as the Discrimination and Harassment Counsel for the Law Society of Upper Canada for over a decade, I am grateful for Ms. Petersen’s expertise in this matter.

“I also extend my appreciation to all those who participated in this independent process.

“I accept the decisions of Mr. Massimo Pacetti and Mr. Scott Andrews to sit as Independent Members of Parliament and to not seek the Liberal nominations in their respective ridings. As such, I consider this matter closed.

“As I have previously indicated, the Liberal Party of Canada is supportive of any constructive measures that aim to improve workplace safety and protect those who work in Parliament from harassment. We need to protect and encourage anyone who comes forward with allegations of this nature. With that in mind, future action should include a focus on training and prevention, and the Liberal Party of Canada will independently pursue training for all of its staff and Caucus members.

“This process was initiated in order to conduct an independent, fair, and confidential review. I will have no further comment on this matter.”

---

http://www.liberal.ca/statement-by-liberal-party-of-canada-leader-justin...

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Pondering wrote:

If Hitler had been a failure as a leader there wouldn't have been a Holocaust.

Surprised

You just said the Holocaust proves Hitler was a success as a leader.

I am astounded by this absolutely breathtaking comment.

Hitler achieved power and that power brought him to his own death, brought his country and many of its people to death and/or ruin, and he engineered the crime of the millenium while directing the most horrific war humans have ever seen. Along the way his military incompetance wiped out one of the largest invasion forces ever mounted (in Russia). I would say that he was an utter failure as a leader. His obsessions and hatred that led to the Holocaust were every bit central to his failure as a human being AND as a leader.

I never thought I would have to argue this with anyone who is not a self-proclaimed Nazi.

There is a difference between leadership ability and morality. I hate what Harper has done to Canada but he is a skilled politician. Likewise I hate what Hitler did but recognize his skill as a leader. 

You can put away your pearls now. 

Even reducing your argument to immoral leadership ability you have no case as I made clear.

That was a ill-advised comment that does not hold up no matter what definition you choose. And leading a country into the crime of the millenium, the worst war in history and the destruction of your nation DOES disqualify you from being called a good leader.

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Pondering wrote:

If Hitler had been a failure as a leader there wouldn't have been a Holocaust.

Surprised

You just said the Holocaust proves Hitler was a success as a leader.

I am astounded by this absolutely breathtaking comment.

Hitler achieved power and that power brought him to his own death, brought his country and many of its people to death and/or ruin, and he engineered the crime of the millenium while directing the most horrific war humans have ever seen. Along the way his military incompetance wiped out one of the largest invasion forces ever mounted (in Russia). I would say that he was an utter failure as a leader. His obsessions and hatred that led to the Holocaust were every bit central to his failure as a human being AND as a leader.

I never thought I would have to argue this with anyone who is not a self-proclaimed Nazi.

There is a difference between leadership ability and morality. I hate what Harper has done to Canada but he is a skilled politician. Likewise I hate what Hitler did but recognize his skill as a leader. 

You can put away your pearls now. 

Even reducing your argument to immoral leadership ability you have no case as I made clear.

That was a ill-advised comment that does not hold up no matter what definition you choose. And leading a country into the crime of the millenium, the worst war in history and the destruction of your nation DOES disqualify you from being called a good leader.

Well then it's a good thing I didn't call him a good leader. Personal attack through putting words in my mouth is a really lame tactic. 

It is good to see you have dropped all pretense of being unbiased or non-partisan. You had me fooled for quite awhile but do keep coming at me so everyone can see what you are really like. 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Pondering wrote:

It is good to see you have dropped all pretense of being unbiased or non-partisan. You had me fooled for quite awhile but do keep coming at me so everyone can see what you are really like. 

Well I don't know whether I qualify as "everyone" or not, but I think Sean is much more reasonable than you are, Pondering. But then, maybe that just shows what I am really like.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

A lot could be written about Hitler and the Leadership Syndrome. The Germans loved their Fuhrer so much he was the second coming of Christ. Hitler knew how to manpulate symbols and national artifacts and inspire lower-middle-class values. As proletarians achieve middle-class incomes and lifestyles, they adopt middle-class values.

Unlike other political movements, fascism comes out of the mass. We saw the thousands who came to see Hitler speak. He was definitely their leader, their Fuhrer, their god. To deny that is to give a pass to all of those who sat idly by while his extermination machine killed millions.

For the Nazis, Stalingrad was the apocalypse. And yes, Hitler was an abysmal military commander.

If a leader can get you to do things you would not otherwise do, Hitler was a leader.

Sean in Ottawa

That's my definition of a conman not a leader.

A good con gets in a position of leadership.

A leader knows what to do when there.

A leader gets the result she/he expects. I don't think Hitler was working towards a permanent division of his country.

Pondering

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Pondering wrote:

It is good to see you have dropped all pretense of being unbiased or non-partisan. You had me fooled for quite awhile but do keep coming at me so everyone can see what you are really like. 

Well I don't know whether I qualify as "everyone" or not, but I think Sean is much more reasonable than you are, Pondering. But then, maybe that just shows what I am really like.

I was clearly pointing out the distinction between leadership ability and morality in my reference to Hitler. To turn that around to imply that I am expressing admiration for Hitler is disgusting anywhere nevermind on a progressive message board. It is using the Holocaust to troll. 

Yesterday I was treated to mental illness being used as an insult. 

This is bullying. No one here should consider it acceptable behavior no matter who the target is. 

 

 

Unionist

Yabbut, how did Hitler treat allegations of sexual harassment against Nazi party officials?

Just trying to wean this back to the topic.

 

ajaykumar

The ndp is countersuing a staffer over allegations. Imagine if the liberals had done that!

jjuares

Pondering wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Pondering wrote:

It is good to see you have dropped all pretense of being unbiased or non-partisan. You had me fooled for quite awhile but do keep coming at me so everyone can see what you are really like. 

Well I don't know whether I qualify as "everyone" or not, but I think Sean is much more reasonable than you are, Pondering. But then, maybe that just shows what I am really like.

I was clearly pointing out the distinction between leadership ability and morality in my reference to Hitler. To turn that around to imply that I am expressing admiration for Hitler is disgusting anywhere nevermind on a progressive message board. It is using the Holocaust to troll. 

Yesterday I was treated to mental illness being used as an insult. 

This is bullying. No one here should consider it acceptable behavior no matter who the target is. 

 

 


Even the moderator called you out on the kind words you had for Hitler.

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Pondering wrote:

It is good to see you have dropped all pretense of being unbiased or non-partisan. You had me fooled for quite awhile but do keep coming at me so everyone can see what you are really like. 

Well I don't know whether I qualify as "everyone" or not, but I think Sean is much more reasonable than you are, Pondering. But then, maybe that just shows what I am really like.

I was clearly pointing out the distinction between leadership ability and morality in my reference to Hitler. To turn that around to imply that I am expressing admiration for Hitler is disgusting anywhere nevermind on a progressive message board. It is using the Holocaust to troll. 

Yesterday I was treated to mental illness being used as an insult. 

This is bullying. No one here should consider it acceptable behavior no matter who the target is. 

Leadership has everything to do with the decisions you make AS leader not just your ability to sell yourself to get a crack at leadership.

To put the focus only on gaining and maintaining power is a rather Liberal bias.

Now I thought it was other dictators that the Liberals admired. Perhaps it is all of them.

Brachina
Pondering

jjuares wrote:
Even the moderator called you out on the kind words you had for Hitler.

That is not true on either count. I did not say anything "kind" about Hitler nor has a moderator called me out. 

It is deeply insulting to be accused of defending or praising Hitler. But that is the point isn't it. You goal is to be as insulting as you possibly can towards me. It doesn't matter who or what you use to do it. 

The Holocaust shouldn't be used as a taunt to bully someone. I shouldn't have to say that on a progressive message board. 

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Pondering wrote:

It is good to see you have dropped all pretense of being unbiased or non-partisan. You had me fooled for quite awhile but do keep coming at me so everyone can see what you are really like. 

Well I don't know whether I qualify as "everyone" or not, but I think Sean is much more reasonable than you are, Pondering. But then, maybe that just shows what I am really like.

I was clearly pointing out the distinction between leadership ability and morality in my reference to Hitler. To turn that around to imply that I am expressing admiration for Hitler is disgusting anywhere nevermind on a progressive message board. It is using the Holocaust to troll. 

Yesterday I was treated to mental illness being used as an insult. 

This is bullying. No one here should consider it acceptable behavior no matter who the target is. 

Leadership has everything to do with the decisions you make AS leader not just your ability to sell yourself to get a crack at leadership.

To put the focus only on gaining and maintaining power is a rather Liberal bias.

Now I thought it was other dictators that the Liberals admired. Perhaps it is all of them.

That's a "duh" statement and getting elected is a prerequisite to getting to make the decisions. I don't consider Harper a "good" leader but he is certainly an extremely successful leader. 

Really, you're going with Liberals want to turn Canada into a dictatorship. Good luck with that approach. Laughing

 

jjuares

Pondering wrote:

jjuares wrote:
Even the moderator called you out on the kind words you had for Hitler.

That is not true on either count. I did not say anything "kind" about Hitler nor has a moderator called me out. 

It is deeply insulting to be accused of defending or praising Hitler. But that is the point isn't it. You goal is to be as insulting as you possibly can.


It is absolutely true. Here is the post where you get called out.
Pondering wrote:
"Whether or not a person supports a political party (or leader) is separate from how that party or leader is performing. Hitler, for example, was an extremely successful leader even if he over-reached in the end."
MegB
"Seriously? He destroyed his country, murdered millions and offed himself in the end. Just how do you define 'success'? Over-reached? Really? I mean hey, if using Hitler as a model for successful leadership in support of Trudeau ... OMG ... again, really? "(#46 BDS Movement has no place...)
Another falsehood on your part. When you tell such easily discernible lies you demonstrate contempt for everyone here. To paraphrase Joseph Welch, will you at long last stop lying?

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Pondering wrote:

It is good to see you have dropped all pretense of being unbiased or non-partisan. You had me fooled for quite awhile but do keep coming at me so everyone can see what you are really like. 

Well I don't know whether I qualify as "everyone" or not, but I think Sean is much more reasonable than you are, Pondering. But then, maybe that just shows what I am really like.

I was clearly pointing out the distinction between leadership ability and morality in my reference to Hitler. To turn that around to imply that I am expressing admiration for Hitler is disgusting anywhere nevermind on a progressive message board. It is using the Holocaust to troll. 

Yesterday I was treated to mental illness being used as an insult. 

This is bullying. No one here should consider it acceptable behavior no matter who the target is. 

Leadership has everything to do with the decisions you make AS leader not just your ability to sell yourself to get a crack at leadership.

To put the focus only on gaining and maintaining power is a rather Liberal bias.

Now I thought it was other dictators that the Liberals admired. Perhaps it is all of them.

That's a "duh" statement and getting elected is a prerequisite to getting to make the decisions. I don't consider Harper a "good" leader but he is certainly an extremely successful leader. 

Really, you're going with Liberals want to turn Canada into a dictatorship. Good luck with that approach. Laughing

By any measure there is no comparison between Harper and Hitler.

When it comes to success, Harper so far has achieved what he wanted and expected. That is not true for Hitler.

In fact Hitler's failures due to his leadership were catastrophic.

As for the Liberal party I am not suggesting the Liberals want to turn the country into a dictatorship -- I am pointing out that you suffer from the same severe problem with judgement in this respect.

Hitler is no model for leadership- he was an utter failure who had his country permanently divided never to be put together again. Since his motivation presumably was for his country that is one major failure.

sherpa-finn

Hey, mods.  It would appear to me that this thread has wandered sufficiently off thread and track that it is wholly beyond redemption.

Time to "SHUT IT DOWN!"

Sean in Ottawa

sherpa-finn wrote:

Hey, mods.  It would appear to me that this thread has wandered sufficiently off thread and track that it is wholly beyond redemption.

Time to "SHUT IT DOWN!"

The thread itself by its very title is trolling in my opinion.

There has been no suggestion that this behaviour is exclusively related to any particular party anyway.

I am happy to see this closed as well.

But I do feel that it is fair to respond to the Hitler reference as offensive as it was.

Debater

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The thread itself by its very title is trolling in my opinion.

I agree.

Of course this thread title is trolling.  But so are many of the thread titles here that are created by a certain poster to attack the Liberals.

There's a 5-page thread here on Justin Trudeau that also has a trolling title ("Trudeau's daily mistakes").

I could create a thread title like that on Mulcair, who has made a series of strategic errors since becoming NDP leader which have led to his party being in 3rd place for 2 years, but I try to avoid creating inflammatory thread titles.

Sean in Ottawa

Debater wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The thread itself by its very title is trolling in my opinion.

I agree.

Of course this thread title is trolling.  But so are many of the thread titles here that are created by a certain poster to attack the Liberals.

There's a 5-page thread here on Justin Trudeau that also has a trolling title ("Trudeau's daily mistakes").

I could create a thread title like that on Mulcair, who has made a series of strategic errors since becoming NDP leader which have led to his party being in 3rd place for 2 years, but I try to avoid creating inflammatory thread titles.

Debater, you have done your share of trolling as well. But that does not excuse this one (and the trolling is not all in thread titles).

Debater

I'm not claiming to be a Saint, but as Unionist said a while back, I don't tend to engage in the amount of name-calling and trolling that some others do.

Most of my threads are created based on actual news articles & reports by journalists, not invented thread titles which mislead the reader.

And while I do post some articles that are critical of the NDP, I keep my focus mainly on posting negative articles about the Conservatives.

Aristotleded24

sherpa-finn wrote:
Hey, mods.  It would appear to me that this thread has wandered sufficiently off thread and track that it is wholly beyond redemption.

Time to "SHUT IT DOWN!"

Agreed. I'll go farther and say it was problematic from its inception.

Sean in Ottawa

I would still like to see the "what's wrong with Liberal party" part of the title removed. The rest of the title is not as bad but the first part really does not meet any reasonable standard.

Debater

And on the NDP candidates thread, NR made a post earlier today (which I think sherpa-finn objected to) saying that Avalon & St. Léonard should punish the Liberals for this situation and that the NDP should try to use this situation to their advantage to win those ridings.

jjuares

Debater wrote:

I'm not claiming to be a Saint, but as Unionist said a while back, I don't tend to engage in the amount of name-calling and trolling that some others do.

Most of my threads are created based on actual news articles & reports by journalists, not invented thread titles which mislead the reader.

And while I do post some articles that are critical of the NDP, I keep my focus mainly on posting negative articles about the Conservatives.


I disagree with the last sentence. Case in point your starting of the thread about Manon Perreault. It served no purpose other than to attack the NDP. It is your equivalent of this thread.

Debater

No, that's the analogy of false equivalency.

I reported a NEWS STORY using the title of the actual article as the title of the thread.

I did not add in my own personal opinion/smear into the thread title itself.

I just posted the story that Manon Perreault was being thrown out of the NDP because of the criminal charges.  I did not say that it meant there was some type of criminal culture afflicting the entire NDP.

jjuares

Debater wrote:

No, that's the analogy of false equivalency.

I reported a NEWS STORY using the title of the actual article as the title of the thread.

I did not add in my own personal opinion/smear into the thread title itself.

I just posted the story that Manon Perreault was being thrown out of the NDP because of the criminal charges.  I did not say that it meant there was some type of criminal culture afflicting the entire NDP.


Here are some more threads you started:
Last Drops of Orange Crush,
NDP on the Hook for 2.75 million
Yeah, you used the actual story but so what? These are not antiHarper articles you are using to start a thread. These are articles criticizing the party standing up to Harper on C51

jjuares

Heres another Debater initiated thread,
Union Puts defeat of Tories Ahead of Support for the NDP

And there are more. To be fair you have started a lot of threads criticizing the Tories but very few if any critical threads about the Liberals. You seem to troll the internet looking for stories attacking some parties. Nothing wrong with that but just be upfront about it. Your main focus is promoting The Liberals and that guides your selection of articles. There is nothing remotely "objective" about the selective use of data.

Sean in Ottawa

And they are not "objective" thread titles either. But you can't accept this one if you want to call out Pondering and Debater on theirs.

Ideally everyone should object to these designed-to-provoke thread titles.

MegB

Closing upon request.

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