Brava to Kelly Holloway at York U

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Digiteyes Digiteyes's picture
Brava to Kelly Holloway at York U

 

Digiteyes Digiteyes's picture
Ghislaine

quote:


Originally posted by Digiteyes:
[b]For standing up for women's rights
[url=http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/310365]http://www.thestar.com/Ne...

You do realize that some women dont agree with Holloway and feel that their right to debate was taken away??

Scout

quote:


You do realize that some women dont agree with Holloway and feel that their right to debate was taken away??

Boo hoo! Though it does have a certain symmetry, they want to take away another's rights, now they know what that feels like. Even if they are only experiencing a delusion cause for people who aren't being allowed to speak they never shut the fuck up.

I never though my right to free speech meant I got to run around and talk about removing another’s human rights. Silly me.

Summer

This is bang on (from the Star article)

quote:

She said the executive supports Charter-protected freedom of expression, but felt it had a responsibility to protect students from speech it viewed as discrimination or harassment on its student-funded space. "Just like we would not sanction the use of student space to challenge whether black students should be able to attend university, or whether homosexuality should be illegal, we would not sanction this particular debate over whether or not women should be able to have a choice concerning their own bodies."


morningstar

when I read this today I was so relieved to see a clear thinking woman state her case succinctly and with no hedging or appology.
I'm so fed up with anti woman ideologues trying to frame their agenda so disingenuously.

Her statement was my bright spot of the day (considering bill c484)---now I'm going to read dante and pull the sheets over my head.

Digiteyes Digiteyes's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Ghislaine:
[b]

You do realize that some women dont agree with Holloway and feel that their right to debate was taken away??[/b]


Your right to debate ends at my right to my body. Read the article: CCBR makes it quite clear that "the extension of its beliefs sees it advocating for a change in law."

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Do we need to debate issues that we as a society have ruled as discriminatory? I don't think so.

Kelly Holloway spoke admirably and on point. We don't need to revisit the days where segregation of PoC was acceptable or denying LGBT rights. Nor do we need to revisit the days where women were denied their right to control their bodies.

Debating these issues in absolutely regressive.

morningstar

Did anyone else hear Rex Murphy talk about this on "cross country checkup" on Sunday?
I'm still cross although I know that I've somehow gone over the line of being able to stay reasonable about this.
He said that(to paraphrase) wouldn't this debate at a Canadian university be an educational experience, a good time for both sides to "hone their arguments" in a reasonable fashion....or some such rubbish.
I emailed him to say that this made about as much sense as debating slavery as a good intellectual exercise---what is wrong with these well meaing but remarkably uninformed people----should we perhaps have feminism 101 as a mandatory subject from preschool to old age? Is that what it will take?
I'm really losing my sense of humour.

kropotkin1951

First off stop listneing to Rex he is nothing but a blow hard asshole.

Skinny Dipper

I would rather have free speech than free swords. What do I mean? If we deny people the right to speak freely, even on topics on which we may not agree, they may seek other ways to spread their message. One way is the figurative sword.

Last year, I supported the Mixed Member Proportional voting system in the referendum in Ontario. I will be supporting the Single Transferable Vote system in BC's referendum next year. Why? I want my opponents to be represented in our legislatures. Each of us needs a voice in society. I may not like what my opponents have to say; they may not like what I have to say. Someday, I may need my opponents to become my supporters. Someday, we may need to become political friends due to external circumstances threatening the well-being of our democracy.

One thing I enjoyed about going to university was getting away from my loving parents. I became an adult by having to learn how to live without the direct protection of my parents. I had to learn to work with others without my parents' assistance.

I wonder how many children go to the York University student centre. How many of them carry words? How many carry swords?

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Skinny Dipper ]

morningstar

would we think that debating with nazis is free speach? is educational and a growth experience?

no, it would just be wrong.
Some groups abuse our society's freedom and easy tolerance for so much.
Religious groups are abusing our good will and are disingenuous when they claim "free" speach about women.
People often take far too many liberties when discussing women---if one substitutes any other group's rights, in the place of women's reproductive rights, the discussion won't happen---we would all understand how wrong the debate about women's ownership of their bodies always is.

it has nothing to do with free speach---it's just misogyny in 1 of its many guises.

remind remind's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Skinny Dipper:
[b]I would rather have free speech than free swords. What do I mean? If we deny people the right to speak freely, even on topics on which we may not agree, they may seek other ways to spread their message. One way is the figurative sword.[/b]

This is not a "topic", and it is mind boggling for you to perceive it as such.

quote:

[b]Last year, I supported the Mixed Member Proportional voting system in the referendum in Ontario. I may not like what my opponents have to say; they may not like what I have to say. Someday, I may need my opponents to become my supporters. Someday, we may need to become political friends due to external circumstances threatening the well-being of our democracy.[/b]

Again your failure to see this for what it is, is astonishing. How about I get some people together who believe I have a right to take away your Charter Equality Rights and see how democratic you think it is?

Ghislaine

I am continually amazed by how few people on this site support freedom of speech.

I am relatively new, but I had a far different initial impression of the "progressive" views.

Scout

Well I guess some of us have a different view of what free speech means.

Maysie Maysie's picture

quote:


morningstar: should we perhaps have feminism 101 as a mandatory subject from preschool to old age?

What a fucking gorgeous idea! YES! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Ibelongtonoone

It's funny how you assume you can speak for all women and that you even have the right to speak for all women when clearly not all women agree with you - but then their voices don't matter - right?

oldgoat

I think it's funny how a male can post in the feminist forum about who gets to speak for women and who doesn't.

That wasn't a modetorial intervention, just an observation I felt sort of compelled to make.

remind remind's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]It's funny how you assume you can speak for all women and that you even have the right to speak for all women when clearly not all women agree with you - but then their voices don't matter - right?[/b]

It's funny how you, as a man, feel you have the right to come into the feminist forum, and chastize a woman by saying, wrongly, that she is assuming to speak for all women!

Having said that, No, the voices who would try, or advocate, to take away Charter Rights do not count, not in the slightest.

Scout

quote:


It's funny how you assume you can speak for all women and that you even have the right to speak for all women when clearly not all women agree with you - but then their voices don't matter - right?

Their voices when applied to my rights don't matter to anyone but themselves. They are still free to have as many children as they wish. Being women doesn't mean they get to tell me what to do with my body anymore than a man does. Their gender isn't a pass to violate anothe's human rights.

And we know a white supremacist group would get far having discussions about equality on a campus either. But they sure can talk all the crazy shit they want on private.

The bottomline is they aren't being arrested by the Government for their speech they can say what they want but not where ever they want, not on another person's property. And as a private citzen people have the right to tell them to shut the fuck up, free speech allows for that.

You can speak all you want but you can't force other free citzens to listen to you.

Ibelongtonoone

I understand what you are saying, and I'm not anti - abortion so this is not personal.

I just slightly disagree with yr interptation of this issue.

You say there can be no debate because there is nothing to debate. This is based on yr belief that a fetus is a part of a woman's body. This not a scientific fact, it just a belief that you and others share. Other people including many women disagree.

one example - on an ultrasound, after a certain point a male fetus's penis can be seen - is it the woman's penis, if not than who's is it?

If others believe that the fetus is a seperate being than clearly there is an opening for debate.

Shutting down the debate seems to be out of fear of any opposing views or ideas being heard and swaying or gaining traction among the population.

This tactic does not bode well for the future as this issue not likely to go away any time soon especially with scientific and technological progress.

remind remind's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]I understand what you are saying, [/b]

No, apparently you don't.

quote:

[b]and I'm not anti - abortion so this is not personal. [/b]

BS

quote:

[b]I just slightly disagree with yr interptation of this issue. [/b]

You do not get to agree, or disagree.

quote:

[b]You say there can be no debate because there is nothing to debate. [/b]

There is nothing to debate.

quote:

[b] This is based on yr belief that a fetus is a part of a woman's body. This not a scientific fact, it just a belief that you and others share. [/b]

You have got to be fucking kidding! It is just our imagination then that we are the ones having a parasite inside of us, and that the SCC shares this fact of life as truth. It is one's own choice to accept cells living off of one's self, or not.

quote:

[b] Other people including many women disagree.[/b]

So? They need to mind their own fucking business as do you.

quote:

[b]one example - on an ultrasound, after a certain point a male fetus's penis can be seen - is it the woman's penis, if not than who's is it?[/b]

How about you fuck off right now?

quote:

[b]If others believe that the fetus is a seperate being than clearly there is an opening for debate.[/b]

No, actually there is isn't.

quote:

[b]Shutting down the debate seems to be out of fear of any opposing views or ideas being heard and swaying or gaining traction among the population.[/b]

No it isn't, it is disgust and anger that others feel they have a right to take other's rights away, and that they feel their should be a debate about human rights.

quote:

[b]This tactic does not bode well for the future as this issue not likely to go away any time soon especially with scientific and technological progress.[/b]

Advances mean sweet fuck all, women cannot be compelled to give their bodies into service of another person, even if that person's life is in danger.

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

Ibelongtonoone

wow, you say BS and that's that? - so even if I'm trying to be honest and have decent conversation - you're rude and condesending - can I call you a liar then - because I am not nor at anytime been anti-abortion.

Good luck at debating - yr terrible at it.

remind remind's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]wow, you say BS and that's that? - so even if I'm trying to be honest and have decent conversation - you're rude and condesending - can I call you a liar then - because I am not nor at anytime been anti-abortion.

Good luck at debating - yr terrible at it.[/b]


Yep, I say BS and that's that and I wasn't trying to have a debate, nor am I now. And no you don't get to call me a liar actually.

Scout

quote:


If others believe that the fetus is a seperate being than clearly there is an opening for debate.

Shutting down the debate seems to be out of fear of any opposing views or ideas being heard and swaying or gaining traction among the population.


You can spin it that way but in the end what difference does it make if there is a penis or not if it means we force someone to be pregnant against their will? We don't force people to donate kidneys or even blood but the way this debate goes is that someone has to have a child they don't want to have. Can you imagine? I can't imagine being forced onto that I'd be desolate. It'd be torture. Morally smug torture. Punishment in fact I guess for having sex for fun and not for procreation!

The opposite of choice in this debate is force.

We don't let people force religon on others, morality, or forms of dress, we don't allow genital mutilation or force people to be celibate but we should open up debate on forced pregnancy?

What's to discuss really?

Some people want laws so they can force people to do something against their will with their body and that is be pregnant. Uh how dare they springs to mind. You can take your accusation of fear and stick it. I am outraged that people feel that they can discuss my body as if they have a right to. They don't. They don't have any ownership over my body nor can they force me to use it to give life.

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Scout ]

Ibelongtonoone

I won't bother trying to discuss this further as it's not something yr really open to talking about.

Just to add - just because someone is speaking about something or taking a pro/con postion on a debate doesn't mean it reflects that person's personal views on the subject.

This sort of militancy doesn't make for very interesting conversation, let alone killing any possibility of an open, honest, intellectually challenging and respectful debate.

C'est la vie

Unionist

Hey, let's have a debate on whether or not human sacrifice should be used to help the Prairie grain harvest?

C'mon, what's the harm, it's just intellectual titillation, eh?

Then let's debate the reintroduction of capital punishment; the abolition of the right to refuse unsafe work; and wait, I've got it:

BE IT RESOLVED that women can no longer be trusted with the right to vote!

It's just a scholarly exercise, dontcha know.

Scout

quote:


I won't bother trying to discuss this further as it's not something yr really open to talking about.

That’s fantastic news! Cause I really don’t want to talk about why someone feel they can force me to be pregnant, for nine months against my will, I don’t like to have highbrow discussions about the positives of slavery either, just doesn’t feel right. I just don’t feel clean afterwards.

quote:


Just to add - just because someone is speaking about something or taking a pro/con postion on a debate doesn't mean it reflects that person's personal views on the subject.

Oh! I had no idea! Bless your little heart for sharing that with me. I learn something new every day on babble. Is that like the Devil’s Advocate or something? Isn’t that sweet of you to help us out with our dialog by honing our skills against the arguments that our would-be oppressors might come up with, they were all news to me and I am sure the other ladies in thread never heard such things before either. You have been a big help. You know we are all pretty new to this fight.

quote:

This sort of militancy doesn't make for very interesting conversation, let alone killing any possibility of an open, honest, intellectually challenging and respectful debate.

First of all talking about limiting another’s right to self determination is disrespectful and only an idiot would think that the pro-life side has an intellectual side to it so how on earth do I respectfully tell a fucking idiot to steer clear of my uterus? Then again I am sure it is intellectually challenging for pro-lifer to consider that the woman is an individual they can’t control no matter what they believe.

Militancy? Well that’s the straw, get the fuck out of the FF and stay out.

oldgoat

Ibelongtonoone, don't, as in DO NOT post in the feminism forum anymore.

If you do you'll be suspended or banned.

remind remind's picture

Just wanted to link this thread to [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001355]this thread[/url], as it details right of self determination in equality rights.